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Russian Federation1953 Posts
Leaders of People Republic of Donetsk and People Republic of Luhansk decided to join each other in "Novorussia"
They plan to add more south-east regions of Ukraine in near future
Self-proclaimed Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics which recently held referenda on independence from Ukraine have declared the creation of Novorossiya union.
“We have signed a memorandum on the union,” Denis Pushilin, co-chairman of the Donetsk People’s Republic, told the media.
The new union will be called Novorossiya, said the people’s governor of the Donetsk Region, Pavel Gubarev.
He added that the document was signed in the city of Donetsk by Donetsk People’s Republic Prime Minister Aleksandr Borodai and the head of Lugansk People’s Republic Aleksey Karyakin.
People’s representatives from eight Ukrainian regions gathered for a congress in Donetsk on Saturday, a day ahead of scheduled countrywide presidential elections.
As a result of the congress, the south-eastern regions of Ukraine, where anti-government protests gained momentum, have announced the creation of a pro-federalization Popular Front socio-political coalition. The movement accepted a manifesto vowing self-determination and protection of people from “Nazi gangs’ terror.”
The coalition involves Odessa, Nikolaev, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, Kharkov, Kherson, Donetsk and Lugansk Regions.
At the congress, all 145 delegates accepted the manifesto, which stresses that the Popular Front will consist of “everybody, who is ready to resist self-appointed Kiev authority, which started war against the people.”
The coalition vowed to protect innocent civilians from the “terror of Nazi gangs, financed by oligarchs and foreign security services.” It also pledges “a joint fight for people’s rights to a decent life.”
It says it has launched an investigative commission that will probe “crimes of Nazi-terrorists and their Kiev patrons”.
The coalition is calling for a boycott of the presidential election, which is scheduled to take place on Sunday, because “all major candidates” are “oligarchs, whom we have already seen in top positions, hence, robbery and terror would continue,” the manifesto said.
When it comes to a new Ukrainian constitution, the Popular Front demands that it guarantees “neutrality” and nonparticipation in military blocks as well as “political independence”, “mechanisms to stop corruption and massive poverty.”
The coalition also demands that the parliament consists of two chambers. At the same time, regions must be given “a right to autonomy” and “independent foreign-economic activity”.
In addition to that, regional governments must be given a right to “announce its territory de-militarized zones and also “ban political, social and religious organizations on its territory” in case they are considered a “threat” to the people.
The Popular Front wants two official languages in Ukraine – Ukrainian and Russian.
Lugansk and Donetsk People’s Republics earlier announced they will not participate in Ukraine’s presidential elections scheduled for May 25.
Source (english): RT.com
EDIT: found and posted english source
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
On May 25 2014 02:11 PaleMan wrote:Leaders of People Republic of Donetsk and People Republic of Luhansk decided to join each other in "Novorussia" They plan to add more south-east regions of Ukraine in near future Show nested quote +Self-proclaimed Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics which recently held referenda on independence from Ukraine have declared the creation of Novorossiya union.
“We have signed a memorandum on the union,” Denis Pushilin, co-chairman of the Donetsk People’s Republic, told the media.
The new union will be called Novorossiya, said the people’s governor of the Donetsk Region, Pavel Gubarev.
He added that the document was signed in the city of Donetsk by Donetsk People’s Republic Prime Minister Aleksandr Borodai and the head of Lugansk People’s Republic Aleksey Karyakin.
People’s representatives from eight Ukrainian regions gathered for a congress in Donetsk on Saturday, a day ahead of scheduled countrywide presidential elections.
As a result of the congress, the south-eastern regions of Ukraine, where anti-government protests gained momentum, have announced the creation of a pro-federalization Popular Front socio-political coalition. The movement accepted a manifesto vowing self-determination and protection of people from “Nazi gangs’ terror.”
The coalition involves Odessa, Nikolaev, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, Kharkov, Kherson, Donetsk and Lugansk Regions.
At the congress, all 145 delegates accepted the manifesto, which stresses that the Popular Front will consist of “everybody, who is ready to resist self-appointed Kiev authority, which started war against the people.”
The coalition vowed to protect innocent civilians from the “terror of Nazi gangs, financed by oligarchs and foreign security services.” It also pledges “a joint fight for people’s rights to a decent life.”
It says it has launched an investigative commission that will probe “crimes of Nazi-terrorists and their Kiev patrons”.
The coalition is calling for a boycott of the presidential election, which is scheduled to take place on Sunday, because “all major candidates” are “oligarchs, whom we have already seen in top positions, hence, robbery and terror would continue,” the manifesto said.
When it comes to a new Ukrainian constitution, the Popular Front demands that it guarantees “neutrality” and nonparticipation in military blocks as well as “political independence”, “mechanisms to stop corruption and massive poverty.”
The coalition also demands that the parliament consists of two chambers. At the same time, regions must be given “a right to autonomy” and “independent foreign-economic activity”.
In addition to that, regional governments must be given a right to “announce its territory de-militarized zones and also “ban political, social and religious organizations on its territory” in case they are considered a “threat” to the people.
The Popular Front wants two official languages in Ukraine – Ukrainian and Russian.
Lugansk and Donetsk People’s Republics earlier announced they will not participate in Ukraine’s presidential elections scheduled for May 25. Source (english): RT.comEDIT: found and posted english source
This was the most likely result. Ukraine is on the verge of splitting and it's unlikely that Russia is willing to help Donbass the way it helped Crimea - at least, not yet.
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On May 24 2014 18:32 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 17:18 marigoldran wrote:On May 22 2014 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 22 2014 12:28 marigoldran wrote:
That's no excuse. Look at China and Singapore. They didn't start with the tech base they have today.
Another example: the tech industry in India.
Even Communism isn't an excuse for Russia's shoddy economy. China was communist too, and India was socialist, and remains socialist.
The Slavic rate of economic growth is even worse than the Hindu rate of growth. When your economy's even worse than India's, that says something. No one in Europe, not even Ukraine, has a worse economy than India's if you take population into account. "Indian rate of growth" is the result of India being nearly at rock-bottom and having infinite investment. Despite that, India is actually doing pretty shitty even with the infinite investment thanks to all the corruption and waste and inefficiency. Despite this, India is still far behind anywhere in Europe. Even Albania is an infinitely better place than India. The Indian rate of growth is much greater than the United States'. High rate of growth is a common trend in extremely depressed countries. You see why that's not a logical thing to go off of? India's "tech base" is almost entirely the result of foreign (American) investment/outsourcing, mostly for the reason that you can pay people in peanuts in India. American multinational corporations practically built the tech industry in India. Even with this said, India is eons behind the US. It's an awkward gem in a country that is otherwise terribly underdeveloped. China was built by foreign nations in this regard too. It pays hugely on investments when you can invest in a huge labor source (like extremely overpopulated China and India) and pay slave wages on top of that. This is why China and India have been the prime targets. "Even Communism isn't an excuse for Russia's shoddy economy. China was communist too, and India was socialist, and remains socialist." And I hate to admit it, but even despite that, Russia is Disneyland compared to those two places. Also, you forgot that unlike the other two, Russia had a decade-long depression thanks to political schemes that were screwing the post-collapse Russian economy left and right. Had it not happened, Russia's economy would probably be at least double in size. Replacing a decade of decline with a decade of growth is a hugely different scenario. The same goes for places like Ukraine (90s situation similar to Russia's) and Iraq (90s trade embargo), etc. Also, Russia was under communism for quite a while longer, if we're going to bring that up. That but also (don't forget) the decade-long depression are the primary causes of the foundation of modern Russia. A lot of the corruption, oligarchs, and stupidity in modern Russia (and Ukraine and other countries) developed in the chaos and disorder of that decade. Russia's "shoddy economy" is in better shape than either China or India. What they're lacking is 8 times of their current population, and it isn't based upon what is almost slave labor either. What Russia and many other countries also lack is infinite investment (mostly for the reasons of the demographic/wage situation in China/India that doesn't exist in Russia and other places). In an alternate world where Russia was the world's 1st or 2nd most populated country, and where people get paid nothing, it would be Russia in that situation. However, even despite that, to say that India of all places is anywhere on par with Russia or other countries in Europe is silly. Most European countries are so far more developed it's absurd to make any sort of comparison. I think you may be severely overestimating the situation in India. Singapore is the Asian equivalent of old Venice, a mercantile city that was built by having the good fortune as being chosen as being a trade hub. It's by no means a point of comparison to large-scale nations that operate in an infinitely more complex manner than a single city-state that rich powers decided to establish as a trade center and that was extremely built up by the British. The British made Singapore practically the best place in the Far East even before it was independent only 50 years ago, and this paved the way for investment and growth even after independence. Thank merchants and the British for why Singapore is where it is today. It would probably be an extremely poor hovel or Malaysian territory otherwise. Also, China is infinitely worse off than Singapore, so putting the two together is not at all a logical comparison, not to mention that they're entirely different structurings. Let's not forget that the Chinese economy is often critiqued as a bubble that's going to burst sooner or later, which have huge ramifications obviously. I don't see this being said about various European countries which are mostly already better off than China anyhow. Wrong. Of the electronic devices and other goods sitting in front of you, how many of them come from Russia? How many were made in China, Japan, Korea, or Singapore? The point is that Asian manufactured goods can compete in the global market. Russian goods cannot. The Russian economy is in the crapper. The only thing that sustains it is oil and the sale of natural resources. Look at the stuff in your home, and the car you're driving, and the electronic devices you're using and it's obvious there's something wrong with the Russian mindset when it comes to managing economies. How many of the goods in your house are Russian? Also, I'd like to point out that China didn't join the world economy until the 1980s and for a long period before that a crazy dictator called Mao Ze Dong ran China's (already poor) economy into a famine. There's really no excuse for Russia's under-performing economy. The Russians have always been bad at developing a manufacturing or tech base. The Russians had 10 years of trouble? Pffft. QQ. China had a century of war and famine. Japan was devastated after WWII. Look at them now, and compare their economies to Russia's. Any region that's controlled or influenced by Russia is bound to have an economy that cannot compete globally. It's like a natural law. The evidence is in front of you. Wrong? Wrong is right. Your last post had a lot of wrong in it. I addressed all sorts of fallacies (probably the best was putting China and Singapore on the same level). You didn't reply to nearly all of my previous post, so I take it you agree with at least most of my points. But this most recent post adds more wrong, as well. See spoiler for more details. "Any region that's controlled or influenced by Russia is bound to have an economy that cannot compete globally. It's like a natural law." Mmm, dat country bashing. See spoiler for more. + Show Spoiler +
I see you didn't even read my last post clearly. When was I ever talking about Russian tech products/industry? I clearly stated that the US is indisputed in this area, with Japan coming closest. I never said anything about Russia having monster tech industry or anything. As for China, I can't name a single tech company or electronics producer in China (except Lenovo, which was literally built up by an acquisition of a subdivision of IBM). I have no idea why you're saying China is something on par with the US or even Japan when it comes to this area. They just manufacture foreign companies' products. I have absolutely nothing from actually developed from China. Just manufactures of American and Samsung companies' products. lol
In all my post, I did not state a single thing about Russian manufacturing. Not sure where you'll pulling this from. I certainly did not say this. Considering they're a service-oriented economy and can get manufactured goods for cheap like many other countries from countries with wage slavery like China, there's no need for it. The same goes for other European countries, USA, etc. which all have many things that were manufactured in places where the labor is practically free.
Russia was destroyed magnitudes more than Japan was in WW2 (sorry to correct you yet again), had communism, and had the greatest economic disaster that practically any single country experienced in the modern era (and yes, that's even with considering the Great Depression). And yet is still doing quite better than China.
And China is far behind Russia and most other Soviet bloc countries. It is terribly underdeveloped, unadvanced, and impoverished (even relatively speaking). Half of the population are rural peasants. This is even with the combination of an infinite labor source and slave wages no one else has that has attracted more investment than anywhere in history. But even a tiny country like South Korea that was among the poorest places in Asia at one point is today doing infinitely better than China, too.
Like, I used to disagree, but when people straight from China are telling me how much worse China is compared to Western Europe, Eastern Europe, USA, you name it, well, I'm inclined to agree with them.
"Any region that's controlled or influenced by Russia is bound to have an economy that cannot compete globally."
Please remind me, what region is controlled by Russia except Russia?
Or are you implying that there is there some kind of conspiracy where Russia controls the entire 3rd world?
And despite all the "bad stuff" that has happened to China, it's, quite understandably, still many leagues worse off than Russia, not better lol. I have no idea why you are stating otherwise. Even with all the optimistic assessments and comments that can be made, the Chinese economy is very often described as a "bubble". I have not heard once about the Chinese economy without it being referred to as a bubble. Sooner or later, that bubble is going to pop, making the gap between China and its "competitors" like US and various European countries a lot larger.
Also, most (as in like 95% or more) economies in the world cannot compete globally. Not even China can, except in the area of dirt-cheap, plentiful labor. With a giant population and giant investment, you'd think they'd be big somewhere else, but they aren't. That is literally all they have to offer and literally the only way they can compete. But the US, a handful of European countries, and Japan, ie. the global competitors as you put it, are only a fraction of the entire world. I don't expect a country like Russia that adopted a non-redistributive, globalized economic structure realistically not even a decade and a half ago to be a global competitor, and I never said they were. Not sure why you're implying I said this when I clearly didn't. In my last post, I actually said nothing good about Russia being good or otherwise, except that they're far better off than China and certainly India.
"China had a century of war and famine."
This actually describes Russia/USSR pretty well too, if not better. lol. I'm sorry to break it to you.
And I wouldn't say "Pfft" to an economic collapse that makes the Great Depression look like a jolly old time. FWIW, people here in the US would laugh at anyone who said "Pfft" about the Great Depression at that. With that said, I doubt most people even know what the Great Depression was heh.
Anyhow, besides attacking a couple of strawmen, I take it you agree with everything else in my last post, including the strange assertions and contradictions that I addressed as well (like putting Singapore and China on the same level, or how India was an amazing country far beyond Russia or anywhere else in Europe... LOL!).
======================================================================= Anyways, back to Ukraine: In the struggle with separatist insurgents in eastern Ukraine, the Ukrainian govt. is very obviously having big troubles. So, they've turned to right-wing paramilitary groups to help them out. Well, the current concern is now the Ukrainian govt. can't control these militias either. With Donbass Battalion being backed by Ihor Kolomoysky (big corrupt guy), Right Sector (right-wing fascist group), and other paramilitary factions, this is probably only going to increase the level of chaos. When you let mad dogs off their leashes, what result can you expect? I think this was a mistake of the Ukrainian govt. to try to rely on paramilitaries. This will only add to the violence and chaos, and as these guys are a lot less disciplined than actual military forces and some are hard-core right-wing extremists, there's more cause for concern for atrocities occurring that would only strengthen and justify the cause of the separatists themselves. It's bad when you have one faction of ragtag uncontrolled guys like the separatists. It's worse when you add another. With continued insurgent successes, the violence is bound to only get worse and prolonged. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/24/world/europe/ukraine-faces-struggle-to-gain-control-of-militias-including-those-on-its-side.html?_r=0Show nested quote +
The origins of the clash were in dispute.
Before the shooting had stopped, Semyon Semenchenko, the battalion’s leader, claimed that his fighters had been ambushed near a rebel checkpoint in Karlovka, a village about 45 minutes’ drive from Donetsk. Locals and pro-Russian fighters, however, said that Mr. Semenchenko had led an assault on the checkpoint and found himself surrounded when enemy reinforcements arrived.
The battle showed the devastating potential for violence between ad hoc militias, some with little formal training, which could continue even if clashes between the Ukrainian Army and the rebels cease. Until Friday, the Donbass Battalion had seen little action, and was known best for storming a police station in the small town of Velyka Novosilka. Yet the levels of violence have escalated recently. As many as 15 Ukrainian conscript soldiers were killed in an ambush on Thursday at a checkpoint on an isolated country road about an hour south of Donetsk.
Also, so much for sanctions >_> Basically, now apparently Putin is trying to play "good guy" and is getting promptly rewarded for it. So Russia annexed a peninsula, and now Putin is being seen as a leader in resolving the Ukraine crisis? Wow. I don't exactly comprehend this. Show nested quote +
Markets rallied and the ruble surged in value against the dollar Friday as the CEOs and economic experts at the forum praised Putin's efforts to defuse the tensions.
The Russian leader also voiced hopes of mending ties with the United States and the 28-nation European Union, which have slapped asset freezes and travel bans on members of Putin's entourage and had threatened to introduce more crippling sanctions if Russia tried to derail Sunday's vote in Ukraine.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/putin-russia-will-respect-ukraine-election-results/
Um, no. Japan got hit by two nukes and was literally starving by the end of WWII. All of its major cities were firebombed. If you're claiming that Russia was more damaged than Japan after WWII I'd say that's a rather skewed view of history. The Russians lost pretty much everything in the West, but the East was completely untouched. How many Japanese cities were untouched at the end of WWII?
Furthermore, you didn't respond to most of my points so I'll assume that you agree with me. For example, nowhere did you mention India's and South Korea's tech industry which is competitive on the global model or the fact that economic success depends on the ability to attract foreign money, which is something that Russia is bad at- (read the news). And no matter how you argue it, you can't hide the fact that China's economy has made tremendous gains over the last 30 years in contrast to Russia. China is, what, one of the largest economies in the world? And Russia is,what, behind Brazil? It's not even China that's better than Russia: look, even Italy has a better/equivalent GDP compared to Russia. That's just sad. Exactly how would you explain that?
The Russians with their centralized, corruption-riddled bureaucracy has never been successful in encouraging foreign investment, and as a result they've never been able to open themselves to the global economy. Putin's just making it worse, with the crisis in Ukraine and Crimea, and the boycott of the St. Petersburg economic forum. The Russians are experts at shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to economies, and in this crisis they're behaving no differently.
Dealing with Russian imperialism is just a matter of containment. The Russians simply don't have the economic intelligence to back up their military capabilities and imperialistic ambitions. Keep them in a box and within 30 years their economy will collapse and they'll have a revolution. It's worked before.
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I'd say the threat of sanctions have worked and encouraged a change in Putin's behavior. He's seems pretty pissed that a lot of investors boycotted his economic forum, which means he recognizes that economics is Russia's weak point.
After all, economic failure is what caused the USSR to collapse.
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On May 25 2014 02:21 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2014 02:11 PaleMan wrote:Leaders of People Republic of Donetsk and People Republic of Luhansk decided to join each other in "Novorussia" They plan to add more south-east regions of Ukraine in near future Self-proclaimed Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics which recently held referenda on independence from Ukraine have declared the creation of Novorossiya union.
“We have signed a memorandum on the union,” Denis Pushilin, co-chairman of the Donetsk People’s Republic, told the media.
The new union will be called Novorossiya, said the people’s governor of the Donetsk Region, Pavel Gubarev.
He added that the document was signed in the city of Donetsk by Donetsk People’s Republic Prime Minister Aleksandr Borodai and the head of Lugansk People’s Republic Aleksey Karyakin.
People’s representatives from eight Ukrainian regions gathered for a congress in Donetsk on Saturday, a day ahead of scheduled countrywide presidential elections.
As a result of the congress, the south-eastern regions of Ukraine, where anti-government protests gained momentum, have announced the creation of a pro-federalization Popular Front socio-political coalition. The movement accepted a manifesto vowing self-determination and protection of people from “Nazi gangs’ terror.”
The coalition involves Odessa, Nikolaev, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, Kharkov, Kherson, Donetsk and Lugansk Regions.
At the congress, all 145 delegates accepted the manifesto, which stresses that the Popular Front will consist of “everybody, who is ready to resist self-appointed Kiev authority, which started war against the people.”
The coalition vowed to protect innocent civilians from the “terror of Nazi gangs, financed by oligarchs and foreign security services.” It also pledges “a joint fight for people’s rights to a decent life.”
It says it has launched an investigative commission that will probe “crimes of Nazi-terrorists and their Kiev patrons”.
The coalition is calling for a boycott of the presidential election, which is scheduled to take place on Sunday, because “all major candidates” are “oligarchs, whom we have already seen in top positions, hence, robbery and terror would continue,” the manifesto said.
When it comes to a new Ukrainian constitution, the Popular Front demands that it guarantees “neutrality” and nonparticipation in military blocks as well as “political independence”, “mechanisms to stop corruption and massive poverty.”
The coalition also demands that the parliament consists of two chambers. At the same time, regions must be given “a right to autonomy” and “independent foreign-economic activity”.
In addition to that, regional governments must be given a right to “announce its territory de-militarized zones and also “ban political, social and religious organizations on its territory” in case they are considered a “threat” to the people.
The Popular Front wants two official languages in Ukraine – Ukrainian and Russian.
Lugansk and Donetsk People’s Republics earlier announced they will not participate in Ukraine’s presidential elections scheduled for May 25. Source (english): RT.comEDIT: found and posted english source This was the most likely result. Ukraine is on the verge of splitting and it's unlikely that Russia is willing to help Donbass the way it helped Crimea - at least, not yet.
Unfortunate for the people of Donbass, but give it ten years and the area (along with Crimea) will most likely be economic sink-holes, which will serve as a stark reminder to everyone else of the dangers of allowing Russians to manage their economies.
Heck, according to Wikipedia even Italians are better at economic management and GDP growth than Russians. As I've said before: that's just sad.
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On May 25 2014 02:22 marigoldran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 18:32 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 24 2014 17:18 marigoldran wrote:On May 22 2014 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 22 2014 12:28 marigoldran wrote:
That's no excuse. Look at China and Singapore. They didn't start with the tech base they have today.
Another example: the tech industry in India.
Even Communism isn't an excuse for Russia's shoddy economy. China was communist too, and India was socialist, and remains socialist.
The Slavic rate of economic growth is even worse than the Hindu rate of growth. When your economy's even worse than India's, that says something. No one in Europe, not even Ukraine, has a worse economy than India's if you take population into account. "Indian rate of growth" is the result of India being nearly at rock-bottom and having infinite investment. Despite that, India is actually doing pretty shitty even with the infinite investment thanks to all the corruption and waste and inefficiency. Despite this, India is still far behind anywhere in Europe. Even Albania is an infinitely better place than India. The Indian rate of growth is much greater than the United States'. High rate of growth is a common trend in extremely depressed countries. You see why that's not a logical thing to go off of? India's "tech base" is almost entirely the result of foreign (American) investment/outsourcing, mostly for the reason that you can pay people in peanuts in India. American multinational corporations practically built the tech industry in India. Even with this said, India is eons behind the US. It's an awkward gem in a country that is otherwise terribly underdeveloped. China was built by foreign nations in this regard too. It pays hugely on investments when you can invest in a huge labor source (like extremely overpopulated China and India) and pay slave wages on top of that. This is why China and India have been the prime targets. "Even Communism isn't an excuse for Russia's shoddy economy. China was communist too, and India was socialist, and remains socialist." And I hate to admit it, but even despite that, Russia is Disneyland compared to those two places. Also, you forgot that unlike the other two, Russia had a decade-long depression thanks to political schemes that were screwing the post-collapse Russian economy left and right. Had it not happened, Russia's economy would probably be at least double in size. Replacing a decade of decline with a decade of growth is a hugely different scenario. The same goes for places like Ukraine (90s situation similar to Russia's) and Iraq (90s trade embargo), etc. Also, Russia was under communism for quite a while longer, if we're going to bring that up. That but also (don't forget) the decade-long depression are the primary causes of the foundation of modern Russia. A lot of the corruption, oligarchs, and stupidity in modern Russia (and Ukraine and other countries) developed in the chaos and disorder of that decade. Russia's "shoddy economy" is in better shape than either China or India. What they're lacking is 8 times of their current population, and it isn't based upon what is almost slave labor either. What Russia and many other countries also lack is infinite investment (mostly for the reasons of the demographic/wage situation in China/India that doesn't exist in Russia and other places). In an alternate world where Russia was the world's 1st or 2nd most populated country, and where people get paid nothing, it would be Russia in that situation. However, even despite that, to say that India of all places is anywhere on par with Russia or other countries in Europe is silly. Most European countries are so far more developed it's absurd to make any sort of comparison. I think you may be severely overestimating the situation in India. Singapore is the Asian equivalent of old Venice, a mercantile city that was built by having the good fortune as being chosen as being a trade hub. It's by no means a point of comparison to large-scale nations that operate in an infinitely more complex manner than a single city-state that rich powers decided to establish as a trade center and that was extremely built up by the British. The British made Singapore practically the best place in the Far East even before it was independent only 50 years ago, and this paved the way for investment and growth even after independence. Thank merchants and the British for why Singapore is where it is today. It would probably be an extremely poor hovel or Malaysian territory otherwise. Also, China is infinitely worse off than Singapore, so putting the two together is not at all a logical comparison, not to mention that they're entirely different structurings. Let's not forget that the Chinese economy is often critiqued as a bubble that's going to burst sooner or later, which have huge ramifications obviously. I don't see this being said about various European countries which are mostly already better off than China anyhow. Wrong. Of the electronic devices and other goods sitting in front of you, how many of them come from Russia? How many were made in China, Japan, Korea, or Singapore? The point is that Asian manufactured goods can compete in the global market. Russian goods cannot. The Russian economy is in the crapper. The only thing that sustains it is oil and the sale of natural resources. Look at the stuff in your home, and the car you're driving, and the electronic devices you're using and it's obvious there's something wrong with the Russian mindset when it comes to managing economies. How many of the goods in your house are Russian? Also, I'd like to point out that China didn't join the world economy until the 1980s and for a long period before that a crazy dictator called Mao Ze Dong ran China's (already poor) economy into a famine. There's really no excuse for Russia's under-performing economy. The Russians have always been bad at developing a manufacturing or tech base. The Russians had 10 years of trouble? Pffft. QQ. China had a century of war and famine. Japan was devastated after WWII. Look at them now, and compare their economies to Russia's. Any region that's controlled or influenced by Russia is bound to have an economy that cannot compete globally. It's like a natural law. The evidence is in front of you. Wrong? Wrong is right. Your last post had a lot of wrong in it. I addressed all sorts of fallacies (probably the best was putting China and Singapore on the same level). You didn't reply to nearly all of my previous post, so I take it you agree with at least most of my points. But this most recent post adds more wrong, as well. See spoiler for more details. "Any region that's controlled or influenced by Russia is bound to have an economy that cannot compete globally. It's like a natural law." Mmm, dat country bashing. See spoiler for more. + Show Spoiler +
I see you didn't even read my last post clearly. When was I ever talking about Russian tech products/industry? I clearly stated that the US is indisputed in this area, with Japan coming closest. I never said anything about Russia having monster tech industry or anything. As for China, I can't name a single tech company or electronics producer in China (except Lenovo, which was literally built up by an acquisition of a subdivision of IBM). I have no idea why you're saying China is something on par with the US or even Japan when it comes to this area. They just manufacture foreign companies' products. I have absolutely nothing from actually developed from China. Just manufactures of American and Samsung companies' products. lol
In all my post, I did not state a single thing about Russian manufacturing. Not sure where you'll pulling this from. I certainly did not say this. Considering they're a service-oriented economy and can get manufactured goods for cheap like many other countries from countries with wage slavery like China, there's no need for it. The same goes for other European countries, USA, etc. which all have many things that were manufactured in places where the labor is practically free.
Russia was destroyed magnitudes more than Japan was in WW2 (sorry to correct you yet again), had communism, and had the greatest economic disaster that practically any single country experienced in the modern era (and yes, that's even with considering the Great Depression). And yet is still doing quite better than China.
And China is far behind Russia and most other Soviet bloc countries. It is terribly underdeveloped, unadvanced, and impoverished (even relatively speaking). Half of the population are rural peasants. This is even with the combination of an infinite labor source and slave wages no one else has that has attracted more investment than anywhere in history. But even a tiny country like South Korea that was among the poorest places in Asia at one point is today doing infinitely better than China, too.
Like, I used to disagree, but when people straight from China are telling me how much worse China is compared to Western Europe, Eastern Europe, USA, you name it, well, I'm inclined to agree with them.
"Any region that's controlled or influenced by Russia is bound to have an economy that cannot compete globally."
Please remind me, what region is controlled by Russia except Russia?
Or are you implying that there is there some kind of conspiracy where Russia controls the entire 3rd world?
And despite all the "bad stuff" that has happened to China, it's, quite understandably, still many leagues worse off than Russia, not better lol. I have no idea why you are stating otherwise. Even with all the optimistic assessments and comments that can be made, the Chinese economy is very often described as a "bubble". I have not heard once about the Chinese economy without it being referred to as a bubble. Sooner or later, that bubble is going to pop, making the gap between China and its "competitors" like US and various European countries a lot larger.
Also, most (as in like 95% or more) economies in the world cannot compete globally. Not even China can, except in the area of dirt-cheap, plentiful labor. With a giant population and giant investment, you'd think they'd be big somewhere else, but they aren't. That is literally all they have to offer and literally the only way they can compete. But the US, a handful of European countries, and Japan, ie. the global competitors as you put it, are only a fraction of the entire world. I don't expect a country like Russia that adopted a non-redistributive, globalized economic structure realistically not even a decade and a half ago to be a global competitor, and I never said they were. Not sure why you're implying I said this when I clearly didn't. In my last post, I actually said nothing good about Russia being good or otherwise, except that they're far better off than China and certainly India.
"China had a century of war and famine."
This actually describes Russia/USSR pretty well too, if not better. lol. I'm sorry to break it to you.
And I wouldn't say "Pfft" to an economic collapse that makes the Great Depression look like a jolly old time. FWIW, people here in the US would laugh at anyone who said "Pfft" about the Great Depression at that. With that said, I doubt most people even know what the Great Depression was heh.
Anyhow, besides attacking a couple of strawmen, I take it you agree with everything else in my last post, including the strange assertions and contradictions that I addressed as well (like putting Singapore and China on the same level, or how India was an amazing country far beyond Russia or anywhere else in Europe... LOL!).
======================================================================= Anyways, back to Ukraine: In the struggle with separatist insurgents in eastern Ukraine, the Ukrainian govt. is very obviously having big troubles. So, they've turned to right-wing paramilitary groups to help them out. Well, the current concern is now the Ukrainian govt. can't control these militias either. With Donbass Battalion being backed by Ihor Kolomoysky (big corrupt guy), Right Sector (right-wing fascist group), and other paramilitary factions, this is probably only going to increase the level of chaos. When you let mad dogs off their leashes, what result can you expect? I think this was a mistake of the Ukrainian govt. to try to rely on paramilitaries. This will only add to the violence and chaos, and as these guys are a lot less disciplined than actual military forces and some are hard-core right-wing extremists, there's more cause for concern for atrocities occurring that would only strengthen and justify the cause of the separatists themselves. It's bad when you have one faction of ragtag uncontrolled guys like the separatists. It's worse when you add another. With continued insurgent successes, the violence is bound to only get worse and prolonged. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/24/world/europe/ukraine-faces-struggle-to-gain-control-of-militias-including-those-on-its-side.html?_r=0
The origins of the clash were in dispute.
Before the shooting had stopped, Semyon Semenchenko, the battalion’s leader, claimed that his fighters had been ambushed near a rebel checkpoint in Karlovka, a village about 45 minutes’ drive from Donetsk. Locals and pro-Russian fighters, however, said that Mr. Semenchenko had led an assault on the checkpoint and found himself surrounded when enemy reinforcements arrived.
The battle showed the devastating potential for violence between ad hoc militias, some with little formal training, which could continue even if clashes between the Ukrainian Army and the rebels cease. Until Friday, the Donbass Battalion had seen little action, and was known best for storming a police station in the small town of Velyka Novosilka. Yet the levels of violence have escalated recently. As many as 15 Ukrainian conscript soldiers were killed in an ambush on Thursday at a checkpoint on an isolated country road about an hour south of Donetsk.
Also, so much for sanctions >_> Basically, now apparently Putin is trying to play "good guy" and is getting promptly rewarded for it. So Russia annexed a peninsula, and now Putin is being seen as a leader in resolving the Ukraine crisis? Wow. I don't exactly comprehend this.
Markets rallied and the ruble surged in value against the dollar Friday as the CEOs and economic experts at the forum praised Putin's efforts to defuse the tensions.
The Russian leader also voiced hopes of mending ties with the United States and the 28-nation European Union, which have slapped asset freezes and travel bans on members of Putin's entourage and had threatened to introduce more crippling sanctions if Russia tried to derail Sunday's vote in Ukraine.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/putin-russia-will-respect-ukraine-election-results/ Um, no. Japan got hit by two nukes and was literally starving by the end of WWII. All of its major cities were firebombed. If you're claiming that Russia was more damaged than Japan after WWII I'd say that's a rather skewed view of history. The Russians lost pretty much everything in the West, but the East was completely untouched. How many Japanese cities were untouched at the end of WWII? Furthermore, you didn't respond to most of my points so I'll assume that you agree with me. For example, nowhere did you mention India's and South Korea's tech industry which is competitive on the global model or the fact that economic success depends on the ability to attract foreign money, which is something that Russia is bad at- (read the news). And no matter how you argue it, you can't hide the fact that China's economy has made tremendous gains over the last 30 years in contrast to Russia. China is, what, one of the largest economies in the world? And Russia is,what, behind Brazil? It's not even China that's better than Russia: look, even Italy has a better/equivalent GDP compared to Russia. That's just sad. Exactly how would you explain that? The Russians with their centralized, corruption-riddled bureaucracy has never been successful in encouraging foreign investment, and as a result they've never been able to open themselves to the global economy. Putin's just making it worse, with the crisis in Ukraine and Crimea, and the boycott of the St. Petersburg economic forum. The Russians are experts at shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to economies, and in this crisis they're behaving no differently. Dealing with Russian imperialism is just a matter of containment. The Russians simply don't have the economic intelligence to back up their military capabilities and imperialistic ambitions. Keep them in a box and within 30 years their economy will collapse and they'll have a revolution. It's worked before.
+ Show Spoiler +The devastation and death to Leningrad and Stalingrad alone was far greater than all the US destruction of Japan combined. Believe it or not, those two nukes caused a lot less death and destruction than the siege of Leningrad did. Then when we talk about all the other major Soviet metropolises that were destroyed and the 12-15+ million civilians killed by the Axis, then we have a much scarier story. The war included about a total million civilian casualties for Japan, from all causes. Glad to prove you wrong again. Going off of what Ghan posted a while ago, Russia's GDP is about a trillion more than Brazil's, in the 3.4 trillion range (why are we bringing up Brazil now?). I never said anything about Russia's GDP or about Brazil anyways. My original point, is despite in your dream world, Russia >> China and India. Both are horribly impoverished and underdeveloped countries that comparing them anyways. Brazil also has 50-60 million more people. Italy has been a mercantile/capitalist state for centuries, hosting the most prosperous trade city-states in Europe (think Genoa, Venice, etc.) and with a GDP PPP of around $2 trillion per WB's info, one wonders how they're so far behind places like Britain, France, Germany, etc. I think that's sad. Also, comparing to Russia, 2 < 3.4  meaning Italy < Russia. :s "China's economy has made tremendous gains over the last 30 years in contrast to Russia" Yes, they're also made tremendous gains over the last 30 years compared to the entire rest of the world, so you're making a moot point. Despite that, they've still got a long way to go before they're something other than an overpopulated poor country in Asia. What do you want me to do? Talk about every single country that has any tech industry? I noted US is top, with Japan somewhere behind. I didn't feel it necessary to discuss dozens of countries. Not sure why you bring up India though. Their whole tech scene was built by the US, and anything of relevance are US companies with offices in India lol. They're nowhere close to the US or Japan by any means. Leagues behind, and the US practically built what they have at that. "South Korea's tech industry which is competitive on the global model or the fact that economic success depends on the ability to attract foreign money" Their ability to attract foreign money? What ability? When you're under America's "protection/hegemony/influence/dominance" (whatever you want to call it), it's incredibly easy to attract investment, from the world's most advanced and wealthiest nation at that  . You don't even need to do anything to attract investment. Not to mention, we backed a dictatorship that lasted for decades (not that we don't do that all the time anyways) that directed almost everything (which admittedly is often necessary for developing countries to develop) and with infinite money coming from the US. If SK was a random Asian country with nothing to do with Uncle Sam or others, it'd be a lot poorer, without a doubt. Maybe Thailand status, but it's hard to say. The Russians are experts at shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to economies, and in this crisis they're behaving no differently. Actually, they're being applauded as heroes in resolving tensions (makes me even scratch my head) and the Russian stocks and currency are rising. I don't see foot-shooting in the current day. It looks like they're the biggest political, imperial, and economic winner here. Anyways, we get it. You seriously hate Russia and you're attacking strawmen left and right to try and prove some absurd, unbased, completely skewed or straight-up false points. And you wonder why none of us take you seriously.  You're almost making me sick to be "defending" Russia like this, but I will correct gross wrongs where they occur, no matter what they are. Also, every back-and-forth we've had has been myself correcting false statements and conspiracy theories of yours. Let's bring this back to Ukraine before you start making this a discussion about the rest of the Latin American countries.
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Hmm, I wonder if the election will simply ignore the lack of voting in parts of Donetsk and Luhansk, as it is being disrupted at this time. The results are very obvious anyways, so it doesn't make a difference anyhow. Still, I don't think there's a half-decent choice in the election anyways. With a Ukrainian ambassador calling the election of "historical significance", I'm a bit worried he'll be sorely disappointed.
Indeed, the question in Donetsk and Luhansk, where separatists have seized control of many buildings and gunmen are trying to impose the authority of two self-proclaimed republics, is how many people will be able to vote at all. The premises of some election commissions have been attacked, some officials abducted and shot, and some commissions have collapsed because their members are terrified or support the separatists. Rebels have also seized control of many voters’ rolls and stamps used to validate results. Denis Pushilin, their leader in Donetsk, says people cannot vote for the president of a “neighbouring state”.
Yet the Ukrainian authorities say they are determined that all polling stations will open, even if not in their normal places. If that happens many will be largely symbolic, as voters will not be able to get to them. In Bilovodsk, in the north of Luhansk, Vladimir Nesmiyanov, head of the regional election commission, said on May 17th that he had not been able to deliver voting materials to 86 out of 197 polling stations. He had been warned that, if he tried, the separatists were “waiting for him”: in other words he could be abducted, beaten or worse.
There has been no campaigning in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, and posters mainly for only two candidates, one from Mr Yanukovich’s party. Few people have cable TV; in Donetsk the rebels turned off the signal for Ukrainian channels and replaced them with Russian ones, so most viewers cannot follow any election debates or news. The result, says Oleksandr Kliuzhev, a local analyst, is that his grandparents “live in an alternative reality”.
Another problem for those who want to vote in the two regions, home to 6.5m people (15% of Ukraine’s total), is that many feel they have no candidate. There is also widespread confusion. Some who voted “yes” in the recent “referendums” for independence for Donetsk and Luhansk still plan to vote on May 25th. This may be because they believed, wrongly, that they were voting only for autonomy.
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21602736-eastern-ukraine-will-not-see-much-turnout-may-25th-vote-late-vote-seldom
Heck, according to Wikipedia even Italians are better at economic management and GDP growth than Russians. As I've said before: that's just sad.
Hmm, Italy's GDP in 1999 was about half a trillion more than Russia's (~$1.38 trillion to ~$870 billion). Now, Russia's GDP is 1.4 trillion higher. Russia has had substantially greater GDP growth than Italy's. http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.CD
And something Ghan posted a while back, Russia's GDP per capita is barely less than Estonia's.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD
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You're like the person who's trying to make excuses for someone who's made a hash of his life. "Oh, he never had a chance. He had abusive parents. He came from a poor background. His foster parents were alcoholic. He got raped by evil Germans. Etc. etc. "
I agree. Russia had it tough. But still, they've made a hash of their country over the last century. Even a Russian will probably agree with me.
User was banned for this post.
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On May 25 2014 05:39 marigoldran wrote:
You're like the person who's trying to make excuses for someone who's made a hash of his life. "Oh, he never had a chance. He had abusive parents. He came from a poor background. His foster parents were alcoholic. He got spanked by evil Germans. Etc. etc. "
I agree. Russia had it tough. But still, they've made a hash of their country over the last century. Even a Russian will probably agree with me.
No, I'm not making any excuses for anyone. I'm just addressing falsities and absurdities that are posted.
"I agree. Russia had it tough. But still, they've made a hash of their country over the last century."
No one has been denying what's happened in Russia in the last century (so not sure why you're bringing it up), but rather you are denying the progress in the last decade, where there's been anything but a hash being made. There is a considerable difference my friend.
Not just a Russian, but all of Russia will agree with me that the last decade >>>>> the rest of the last century in Russia. But yes, the period of WW1, Civil War, Stalinist purges, WW2 was quite a frightening period in the last century in particular.
But, the last decade has seen progress unprecedented in Russian history. Maybe for you this is a bad thing. For me, I like seeing economic and social progress anywhere. It means people tend to be better off. Maybe I'm biased because of my own climb from less-than-good times, but when I see many of the old Communist states or 3rd world states progressing well, that means something to me. However, on the same note, I'm not going to say India is now #2 country in the world after USA, a country where they can't even feed their own people properly and where almost everyone is in deep poverty.
Mainly, I'm just waiting for Putin to retire. A guy with his smarts that's more focused on economies than on politics will be exactly what Russia needs. There's lots of smart regular folks there. They deserve better.
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Dear Russia,
I understand you've had a tough time in your history. I feel your pain, I truly do. First the Mongols came and whooped on you for 300 years. Then you were ruled by a long series of mostly incompetent Tsars who succeeded in making your country larger, but generally failed in making it a better place to live. Then you overthrew the Tsars (good for you!) but unfortunately the Tsars got replaced by a megalomaniac, paranoid, and even more abusive dictator called Stalin. Then after Stalin died, you got Khrushchev. Then after Khruschev fell out of power, you got Brezhnev. Then after Brezhnev you got Andropov. Then after Andropov you got Cherneko. And finally, recently, you got Yeltsin. It's like growing up under an evil abusive paranoid dad followed by a series of incompetent and alcoholic foster parents, each more incompetent and more alcoholic than the previous one.
So I understand your pain. I understand why you never developed normally, and why your economy is second-class, and why you're so angry at the world right now. I understand that you want to lash out at other troubled countries preferably weaker than you (like Ukraine) to still the frustration and rage in your heart due to your history. But please, please, Russia, this is not the right path to take. This is the path of becoming like the evil overlords in the Bond movies. The path of destruction and ultimate failure, and being encased in liquid nitrogen after surviving a 50 yard fall from a control tower for an orbiting ion cannon. Don't be like that. We know you can do better, that you can overcome your (horrible) history and become a better country.
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On May 25 2014 05:52 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
But, the last decade has seen progress unprecedented in Russian history. Maybe for you this is a bad thing. For me, I like seeing economic and social progress anywhere.
Economic progress yes, social progress, quite the opposite. Russia has been growing for the last 10 years because basically it was completely dysfunctional during the Yeltsin years. Putin got rid of corruption but sadly enough he also got rid of democracy for good. The economic growth has been driven by resource exports alone, this isn't exactly a recipe for the future. The lack of a civil Russian middle-class and entrepreneurship shows in these conflicts Russia has with their neighbours, because democratic principles are simply nicer than cheap gas in the long run.The way Russia's economy is shaped right now may be nice for the elites living in Moscow but the periphery of the country has nothing to gain from it. The way Russia is developing at the moment is bound to cause big trouble with their everyone around them.
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Putin did not get rid of the corruption. He merely replaced anarchic corruption with centralized corruption.
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Obviously he did not get rid of corruption by Western standards, but there is no denial that it's better than before. Putin is a lot like Erdogan. There are lot of parallels between how Turkey and Russia developed over the last 20 years. The visions these men have for their countries is horrendous, but they have managed to get the economy going which seems to be enough reason for the working class/the broad public of these countries to back them up.
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Putin is a better leader than Yeltsin, so yes I agree.
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Journalists are going around searching for open polling stations around Donetsk. No luck so far:
Here's the broader picture:
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Excellent and lengthy paper on Russia's information warfare techniques:
All the federal television and radio channels, newspapers and a multitude of online resources have been employed in the recent disinformation campaign regarding the situation in Ukraine, which is being waged on an unprecedentedly large scale. The information front was supported by diplomats, politicians, political analysts, experts, and representatives of the academic and cultural elites. This front, though, was many years in the making. At the time of the Ukrainian crisis (the Euromaidan), it was combined with ideological, political and socio-cultural sabotage, provocation and diplomatic activity. In short, multidirectional and complex measures were taken. Following the military occupation and incorporation of Crimea into Russia, the disinformation mechanisms were aimed at lending credibility to Moscow’s intentions and concealing the gaps in the argumentation for the military moves and annexation of Crimea itself. These arguments were absurd, such as: it was feared that “Banderivtsy could storm into Crimea”, “the Black Sea Fleet bases could be taken over by NATO”, “Ukrainian citizens could be de-Russified”, and so on and so forth. Main points:- Russia’s information warfare theory has been developed in opposition to the new generation Western warfare concepts. This method of warfare is also used as an argument for the need to “respond with war to the information war waged against Russia.” In practice, information battles clearly draw upon the psychological warfare conducted in Soviet times and the techniques for influencing and leading the public tested at those times. - The geopolitical doctrine treats information as a dangerous weapon: it is cheap, it is a universal weapon, it has unlimited range, it is easily accessible and permeates all state borders without restrictions. The information and network struggle, as well as its extreme forms, such as information-psychological warfare and netwars, are means the state uses to achieve its goals in international, regional and domestic politics and also to gain a geopolitical advantage. Representatives of geopolitical thought have to be given credit on the one hand for popularising this topic, and on the other for their personal participation in information warfare as opinion leaders. This in particular concerns the key representatives of the two Russian geopolitical schools: Igor Panarin and Aleksandr Dugin, academic teachers and mentors of the young generations of geopoliticians. -Furthermore, geopolitics offers ideological grounds for information battles. In opposition to the ideology of liberalism, it promotes “a neo-conservative post-liberal power (…) struggling for a just multi-polar world, which defends tradition, conservative values and true liberty.” The “Russian Eurasian civilisation” is set at contrast to the “Atlantic civilisation led by the USA” which allegedly intends to disassemble Russian statehood and gain global hegemony. The internal crisis in Ukraine followed by the need to annex Crimea have been presented in the context of the rivalry between these two civilisations. - The information strategy of the rivalry between Russia and the West is a product of both information geopolitics, which has been developed since the late 1990s, and the consistently pursued policy for strengthening the state and building its research and scientific, organisational, media, diplomatic, and social bases, et cetera. It is already used for both internal (mobilisation of society) and external purposes (reconstructing Russia’s spheres of influence in the post-Soviet area and Russia’s dominance in Eurasia). The information space where the Russian language is used and the existence of the Russian diaspora (who are receptive to the Kremlin’s propaganda) are the key factors which make successful action possible. - Western public opinion is more resistant to Russian propaganda, although it has resonated with some people here as well. Moscow’s informational aggression is set to intensify: Russia has a sense of impunity on information battlefields. Furthermore, it is constantly modifying and perfecting its propaganda techniques, taking into account new media tools and introducing innovations, such as activity in social networking services, etc. Source.
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Strife among dictators? Looks like the Belarussian dictator Lukashenko has (once again) broken lines and said that he does not recognize the `referenda' in Donetsk and Lugansk because they weren't conducted according to the constitution. He hopes the country gets a new leader.
Source in Russian.
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Any thoughts on why the Ukrainian government is trying to force through elections today?
To me it seems much better to post-pone the elections a month, with the hope of quelling the separatists in the mean time.
Regardless of the results of the elections, the anti-Kiev people will claim that the elections aren't valid since 5~10% of the country didn't have access to polling stations (or were afraid to vote given the violence).
I guess there are 2 points for not postponing elections:
1.) Ukraine needs to have a more valid government ASAP in order to start dealing with it's other issues.
2.) No one knows how long the separatists will resist, so you would basically be postponing elections indefinitely.
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On May 25 2014 18:22 Mc wrote:
Any thoughts on why the Ukrainian government is trying to force through elections today?
To me it seems much better to post-pone the elections a month, with the hope of quelling the separatists in the mean time.
Regardless of the results of the elections, the anti-Kiev people will claim that the elections aren't valid since 5~10% of the country didn't have access to polling stations (or were afraid to vote given the violence).
I guess there are 2 points for not postponing elections:
1.) Ukraine needs to have a more valid government ASAP in order to start dealing with it's other issues.
2.) No one knows how long the separatists will resist, so you would basically be postponing elections indefinitely.
I really agree on your doubts, but I think the main motivation will be to present a "legitimately" elected government, that can not be denounced as junta/coup government that quickly.
But it is a really difficult to judge here. On one side, those unable to vote today in Eastern Ukraine are exactly those, whose votes are imho most important, because those are the ones, that you have to convince, that the new government is representing the whole Ukraine. But then as you said it... delaying forever is also not an option, and would justify the separatists actions (from a separatists view).
I would love, if someone would come up with an idea, how those people in Eastern Ukraine give their votes later, when the situation is stabilized. But can't think of a decent solution. :/ And reelections in 3 months I wouldn't consider as a good idea. Stability looks different.
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
I cannot provide sources cause it's mostly videos where ppl (soldiers and officers) speak ukrainian/russian but there is serious problem in ukrainian army:
a) some soldiers hate to fight with Right Sector troops on the same side
b) a lot of troops hate how commanders manage operation in donetsk/luhansk region - too many deaths, friendly fire casualities etc.
it is rumored several commanders are thinking about taking People's Republic of Donetsk side and going together to Kiev
again those are rumors, but don't be surprised if this happens
User was warned for this post
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Looks like an Italian journalist that was filming the separatists in Slavyansk has been killed by a mortar strike. No news of other casualties but several injures have been reported:
Italian journalist killed in eastern Ukraine: foreign ministryRome. An Italian journalist was killed Saturday during a mortar shell attack close to Slavyansk, eastern Ukraine, Rome's foreign ministry announced, AFP reported. "Unfortunately, all of the information points to the fact that he has died," a spokeswoman told AFP on Sunday. Source
Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs also officially confirms his death: Source
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lifenews journalists sidyakin and saichenko, who were previously captured by the junta, were released and flown back to russia. their capture was being talked about in this thread on page 555 and onwards. how about them apples?
timer (odessian newspaper) is reporting ~30% turnout by 15:00 for the elections in the odessa region.
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expanding on sgtnoobkilla news
An Italian photojournalist and his Russian interpreter have been killed in eastern Ukraine while covering fighting between government forces and pro-Russia insurgents, officials have said.
The Italian foreign ministry said Andrea Rocchelli, 30, was killed on Saturday in Slavyansk, the flashpoint of some of the most intense battles of recent weeks.
The foreign minister, Federica Mogherini, expressed condolences to Rocchelli's relatives and the family of interpreter Andrey Mironov.
The bodies of the Rocchelli and Mironov were taken to a hospital for official identification and Rocchelli's relatives were planning to travel to Ukraine on Sunday, the ministry said.
William Roguelon, a French photographer who was travelling with Rocchelli and Mironov, said in remarks broadcast by Russian television that they were hit by mortar fire as they were taking shelter in a roadside ditch. Roguelon was wounded in the attack.
Insurgents in Slavyansk, who have engaged in daily fighting with government forces, said the journalists came under fire from Ukrainian troops late on Saturday, but that claim could not be independently confirmed.
In Kiev, Ukraine's interior ministry declined to provide details about what had happened to Rocchelli and Mironov.
Mironov, 60, was also a human rights activist who served time in prison as a dissident when Russia was part of the Soviet Union. He was well-known and had friendly ties with many Moscow-based western journalists.
source: theguardian
bad times to be covering events in ukraine
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EPT
