EPTaccording to good 'ol simon tweet i posted 2 posts ago (counting this too) interior minister claimed phillips was caught with an automatic weap.
Ukraine Crisis - Page 560
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
according to good 'ol simon tweet i posted 2 posts ago (counting this too) interior minister claimed phillips was caught with an automatic weap. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
I guess I spoke too soon  I'm surprised Russia took the deal. It was for a fairly low price, but through China they have access elsewhere, so maybe it'll pay off some time later. On May 22 2014 02:37 Mc wrote: @tadL You're really over-estimating the USA/Europe's influence in Ukraine. 1.) threats of sanctions, freezing of funds, against corrupt Oligarchs/politicians. 2.) English language media which only some Ukrainians would read (and those Ukrainians are usually middle-class pro-Westerners already). 3.) funds going to "pro-democracy" NGOs that are inherently pro-Western and anti-Russian (since Russia is inherently anti-democracy, and the West is democratic). 4.) the "promise of a better future" - i.e. join the West and we give you free trade, possibility of democratic and economic development. 5.) Bail out money and investment. Russia has a few key advantages for more direct interference: 1.) Russian language media is read/watched by most(?) Ukrainians (especially in the East). 2.) FSB has strong connections to some Ukrainian politicians, oligarchs, and SBU. 3.) Decades of experience in 'controlling'/'manipulating' Ukraine 4.) Near total control over Ukrainian access to natural gas. 5.) A strong national/political desire to have Ukraine be in their camp (a lot of Western countries begrudgingly are forced into supporting Ukraine without an inherent desire to do so) 6.) Strong cultural and language ties. There's an ages-old adage: Money talks, bullshit walks. One of the primary means the US has established its hegemony/influence over so large a portion of the world over the past 70 years is that it has infinite money, and you'd have to be a damned fool in a war-torn or developing country to refuse it, and even if you aren't war-torn, well, Uncle Sam can change that  . When push comes to shove, USA has infinite money, Russia doesn't. It doesn't matter if some hypothetical Ukrainian leader worships Lenin and whose favorite vacation spot is St. Petersburg. But when it comes to who can invest infinitely into the country and who can fill his pockets the most (cuz corruption lol), USA is by far the most obvious choice. How Russia holds any standing anywhere is beyond my understanding considering how the status and abilities of the US. And that's just money, nevermind a host of other advantages the US has over every other nation in the world. But I'm just saying, the money part alone is infinitely more attractive than anything Russia can do in the open or covertly.On May 22 2014 03:26 Mc wrote: I think Ukrainians are actually quite free to choose. Look at their most recent elections. First Yuschenko (pro-West), then Yankuvych (pro-Russia), and now probably Poroshenko (pro-West but more moderate). To me the issue is that the country is split on whether they want to be part of Europe or not. They elect a pro-European (like Yuschenko) and nothing changes. So the pro-West half of the country doesn't vote as vigorously as they did previously, and the pro-Russian candidate wins. Then the pro-Russian candidate fucks the country up, and everybody is ready to vote pro-West again. So I feel like Ukrainians are free to choose freely, but no matter who they choose corruption is so endemic in Ukraine that it doesn't really change anything. I'm a bit confused. What do you mean by "a part of Europe"? Ukraine is "a part of Europe." So is Russia for that matter, and not just geographically either. Slavic cultures/languages are inherently from Europe. Do you mean joining the European Union? I don't think the EU could handle Ukraine. Places like Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Greece, etc. are already putting tons of strain (and their economies are far more developed than Ukraine's) and the Eurozone crisis is a continuing event. Adding on Ukraine would probably crash things  The only reason why the EU and US would want to deal with Ukraine is for political reasons, and at least for the case of the US, it's for the sake of opposing Russia. Otherwise, Ukraine is completely irrelevant as far as the US is concerned. It's unfortunate, but as long as Ukraine has infinite corruption and as long as it's the rope in a tug-of-war, it will continually be politically and economically unstable. Hopefully, Ukraine will be improving more substantially as time goes on, but that may be overstating it considering my bar for completely fucked is as low as long-term full trade embargoes. Let's not try to joke ourselves. You can't have an actual functional "democracy" when most of the people in a country are pissed as fuck at how poor they are, especially in Ukraine where people are already REALLY angry. Ukraine isn't the USA, with infinite money and half the people too obese to even walk properly. Keeping order is really easy (and there's still lots of issues compared to other developed countries. Let me show you Los Angeles County ). The primary focus for Ukraine should be economic development. Only then can you improve all facets of society and shift into a regimen where no heavy hand is needed just to keep order. This has been the history of what are today developed states. Even TL's beloved South Korea was ruled by a US-backed dictatorship for decades, but that dictatorship and the US backing is why SK is where it is today. Obviously, while SK is run by huge conglomerates and every president seems to be a bigtime crook, there's obviously a lot more 'democracy' than there was before due to the easing of social tensions due to economic development. ================================================================= Also, important stuff guys. Apparently, Russian forces are probably starting to move away from the border of Ukraine. Washington (CNN) -- The United States has seen the first preliminary signs that Russian forces may be preparing to move away from Ukraine's eastern border, a U.S. defense official told CNN on Wednesday. "There is some evidence of preparations for potential movement," the official said. "At a few locations, there is evidence of troops packing up, but nothing has moved yet." The official declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the information. The official also declined to specify the locations and emphasized that actual movement has not yet occurred. This latest assessment was made days after Russia formally announced it had ordered its troops off the border. And it comes ahead of Ukraine's presidential election scheduled for Sunday. http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/21/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/ Packing up usually precedes moving, so for what it's worth, it's something. Also, an interesting piece on oligarchs in Russia and Ukraine. http://www.forbes.com/sites/melikkaylan/2014/05/21/oligarchs-russia-and-ukraine-what-magnitsky-akhmetov-and-kievs-elections-bode/ One important thing to note is the role of oligarchs in Ukrainian politics and in Russian economy. This isn't an important quote from the article, but one I found to be very intriguing: Outside of the fuel and natural resources sector, very little of the Russian industrial system could compete internationally. Ok throw in military materiel, research and defense exports. Outside of that, you’ve got a kind of massive oil (and gas) sheikdom in disguise. Revenues from raw material sales abroad subsidize the rest of the economy. This isn't just a Russian thing. It's something for the entire post-Communist and developing world. But when for example you have a Communist system for some decades followed by a decade-long period of disasters of every nature, you can't compete in many areas in a global capitalistic system. So what do countries like Russia have to do? Gain revenues from a industry that is actually dominant and use it to develop other parts of the economy that would have no chance existing with foreign giants otherwise. Let's take the tech area for example. Due to their early dominance, no one can touch USA in terms of tech firms, except maybe Japan. A country like Russia could hypothetically have the greatest electrical engineers and software developers of all time, and not come close, simply because they're playing from so far behind due to communism + collapse era. This is where the redistribution process of subsidies come into play, to help these weak areas grow. It'll be interesting to see where Russia and other countries go in the future, but international economics is pretty cut-throat, and "When you're ahead, get more ahead" is exactly what the developed nations are doing. PS: The article gives some pretty interesting insight into Ukrainian politics, so it's worth a read. | ||
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marigoldran
219 Posts
Another example: the tech industry in India. Even Communism isn't an excuse for Russia's shoddy economy. China was communist too, and India was socialist, and remains socialist. The Slavic rate of economic growth is even worse than the Hindu rate of growth. When your economy's even worse than India's, that says something. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On May 22 2014 12:28 marigoldran wrote: That's no excuse. Look at China and Singapore. They didn't start with the tech base they have today. Another example: the tech industry in India. Even Communism isn't an excuse for Russia's shoddy economy. China was communist too, and India was socialist, and remains socialist. The Slavic rate of economic growth is even worse than the Hindu rate of growth. When your economy's even worse than India's, that says something. No one in Europe, not even Ukraine, has a worse economy than India's if you take population into account. "Indian rate of growth" is the result of India being nearly at rock-bottom and having infinite investment. Despite that, India is actually doing pretty shitty even with the infinite investment thanks to all the corruption and waste and inefficiency. Despite this, India is still far behind anywhere in Europe. Even Albania is an infinitely better place than India. The Indian rate of growth is much greater than the United States'. High rate of growth is a common trend in extremely depressed countries. You see why that's not a logical thing to go off of? India's "tech base" is almost entirely the result of foreign (American) investment/outsourcing, mostly for the reason that you can pay people in peanuts in India. American multinational corporations practically built the tech industry in India. Even with this said, India is eons behind the US. It's an awkward gem in a country that is otherwise terribly underdeveloped. China was built by foreign nations in this regard too. It pays hugely on investments when you can invest in a huge labor source (like extremely overpopulated China and India) and pay slave wages on top of that. This is why China and India have been the prime targets. "Even Communism isn't an excuse for Russia's shoddy economy. China was communist too, and India was socialist, and remains socialist." And I hate to admit it, but even despite that, Russia is Disneyland compared to those two places. Also, you forgot that unlike the other two, Russia had a decade-long depression thanks to political schemes that were screwing the post-collapse Russian economy left and right. Had it not happened, Russia's economy would probably be at least double in size. Replacing a decade of decline with a decade of growth is a hugely different scenario. The same goes for places like Ukraine (90s situation similar to Russia's) and Iraq (90s trade embargo), etc. Also, Russia was under communism for quite a while longer, if we're going to bring that up. That but also (don't forget) the decade-long depression are the primary causes of the foundation of modern Russia. A lot of the corruption, oligarchs, and stupidity in modern Russia (and Ukraine and other countries) developed in the chaos and disorder of that decade. Russia's "shoddy economy" is in better shape than either China or India. What they're lacking is 8 times of their current population, and it isn't based upon what is almost slave labor either. What Russia and many other countries also lack is infinite investment (mostly for the reasons of the demographic/wage situation in China/India that doesn't exist in Russia and other places). In an alternate world where Russia was the world's 1st or 2nd most populated country, and where people get paid nothing, it would be Russia in that situation. However, even despite that, to say that India of all places is anywhere on par with Russia or other countries in Europe is silly. Most European countries are so far more developed it's absurd to make any sort of comparison. I think you may be severely overestimating the situation in India. Singapore is the Asian equivalent of old Venice, a mercantile city that was built by having the good fortune as being chosen as being a trade hub. It's by no means a point of comparison to large-scale nations that operate in an infinitely more complex manner than a single city-state that rich powers decided to establish as a trade center and that was extremely built up by the British. The British made Singapore practically the best place in the Far East even before it was independent only 50 years ago, and this paved the way for investment and growth even after independence. Thank merchants and the British for why Singapore is where it is today. It would probably be an extremely poor hovel or Malaysian territory otherwise. Also, China is infinitely worse off than Singapore, so putting the two together is not at all a logical comparison, not to mention that they're entirely different structurings. Let's not forget that the Chinese economy is often critiqued as a bubble that's going to burst sooner or later, which have huge ramifications obviously. I don't see this being said about various European countries which are mostly already better off than China anyhow. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
I misspoke - by "part of Europe", I meant a normal Western country (i.e. semi-functioning democracy, less corruption, GDP per person on the scale of Europe, not Africa, etc.). Obviously, no one is arguing for EU membership until Ukraine becomes more of a normal Western country, and Ukraine is probably decades away from that. Yes, US money is important but in the case of Ukraine, Russia offered more. Also, Russia simply "cares" about Ukraine a shit ton more than the US. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On May 22 2014 13:38 Mc wrote: @Judicator I misspoke - by "part of Europe", I meant a normal Western country (i.e. semi-functioning democracy, less corruption, GDP per person on the scale of Europe, not Africa, etc.). Obviously, no one is arguing for EU membership until Ukraine becomes more of a normal Western country, and Ukraine is probably decades away from that. Yes, US money is important but in the case of Ukraine, Russia offered more. Also, Russia simply "cares" about Ukraine a shit ton more than the US. Precisely, and that Russian offer is what Yanukovych went with over deals with EU which was a primary cause of Maidan. Perhaps the EU and US should have offered more. They certainly have the money. Not to say Yanukovych would have necessarily gone with it, but there is that chance. However, those events have already been discussed to death, and what has happened, has happened. But, of course Russia "cares" a ton more than the US about Ukraine. It's been noted a few times in this thread, but the geographic proximity, the politics, culture, language, history, etc. are about as closely intertwined as any pair of nations can get. Of course, politics trumps all in the current scenario, and with Ukraine right on its border, it obviously is a huge political concern for Russia. For the US, Ukraine is nothing but another nation to gain influence over in the rally against Russia. At least this is how I see it, for what it's worth. I don't know how Ukraine is going to improve things. Ukraine is practically ruled by the oligarchs. When you have corrupt business bosses instead of a functioning central government running the show, it makes things tougher. | ||
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Greem
730 Posts
Good Job. Floating this thread you keep, your motto this must be. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
huh....? @Judicator I have a hope that Ukraine will make progress from the EU-integration deal, but it's ultimately up to their own politicians. Alongside hope, I have many doubts. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On May 22 2014 14:01 Greem wrote: @J.Habibi Good Job. Floating this thread you keep, your motto this must be.  thanks lol.You first had your post in English, now it's in Yoda-speak and I don't entirely understand it. Revert it back please :x | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + It's probably going to be a numbers game now. *** The important part here is that Anonymous hacked the emails of a professional pro-Russia troll group: This basically why we should be especially suspicious of the Palemans in the thread. *** | ||
zatic
Zurich15300 Posts
This thread has been a disaster for a long time. The behavior in this thread was on a level so beneath TL it's appalling. Really, most posts in here would get people banned in other corners of TL. Moderation, or rather lack thereof has certainly been part of the problem. To be honest, most mods simply gave up on the thread. It was simply not possible to follow hundreds of posts per day. Consequently most report from the thread were ignored as well. All this is going to change now. From now on, this thread will be under increased scrutiny, and the behavior we have seen over the past months will not fly anymore. Apart from enforcing general TL moderation standards we realize that there are some unique challenges with the Ukraine thread. So, in addition to the TL commandments, the following rules apply to this thread: Ad hominem attacks Whether attacks are directed at posters in this thread, or are generalized against a country or society, they will not be tolerated anymore. Any blanket attacks, be it on Ukraine, Russia, or any of the Western countries, or singular posters from these countries will be moderated. Reporting news News reports need sources and qualifications. Sources can come from media outlets, news agencies, and official statements, press releases. What does not count as sources, when posted without context: - Post from other forums - Youtube videos - Pictures - Tweets If you have media like pictures, videos, etc that are relevant, it is your responsibility to provide context: What/who do we see, where and when was it taken? If there is dialogue, what are they talking about? Simply posting a video or picture without context will be moderated. English only This is an English language website. Only links to English language material will be allowed. If you find something relevant that is not in English it is your responsibility to provide at least a rough translation. Low content posts This has been a plague in here. We had pages and pages of people throwing one-liners at each other. TL is not a chat room, and repeatedly posting low content will be moderated. This thread will stay locked for one day to let this policy sink in. Let's make this a good thread that is worthy of TL beginning tomorrow. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15300 Posts
Is someone kind enough to provide a wrap up of the events of today? | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On May 23 2014 04:35 zatic wrote: Alright guys, please behave from now on. Is someone kind enough to provide a wrap up of the events of today? NBC news wrote a very nice overview article on this morning's events (no UNSC meeting on Ukraine agreed yet, so nothing on that front). Violence flared in volatile eastern Ukraine ahead of the country's presidential elections, with Kiev calling for an urgent U.N. security council meeting Thursday after a deadly assault on troops by pro-Russian separatists in Donetsk. At least 11 Ukrainian soldiers were killed by pro-Russian separatists who ambushed their checkpoint in the Donetsk region - the deadliest attack in weeks. Ukraine's Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said after the attack that Russia was intentionally trying to destabilize the elections and called for an urgent United Nations Security Council meeting. Hours after the assault on the checkpoint, rebel leaders in neighboring Luhansk announced they were to impose martial law until government troops ceased their offensive. Thursday's events underscore the deep divisions Ukraine still faces ahead of Sunday's presidential vote, an election separatists have pledged to derail. Bodies covered with blankets lie in a field near the village of Blahodatne, eastern Ukraine, on Thursday as a Ukrainian soldier smokes next to his armored infantry vehicle. At least 11 Ukrainian troops were killed and about 30 others were wounded when Pro-Russians attacked a military checkpoint, the deadliest raid in the weeks of fighting in eastern Ukraine. At the scene of the ambush near the village of Blahodatne, journalists from The Associated Press said they saw the dead bodies of at least 11 government troops and three charred armored personnel carriers. About 30 other soldiers were injured, some of them seriously, and state helicopters had arrived to transport the wounded, the AP said. A rebel commander in the nearby town of Horlivka claimed responsibility, telling the news agency: "We destroyed a checkpoint of the fascist Ukrainian army deployed on the land the Donetsk Republic." The commander, who wore a balaclava and identified himself by his nom de guerre, "Bes," Russian for "demon," displayed heavy weaponry taken from the men that said were "trophies." Pro-Russian separatists have occupied large areas of eastern Ukraine in opposition to the Western-backed Kiev government that was imposed after the ouster of the Moscow-friendly President Vikor Yanukovych. Following a referendum earlier this month, the Donetsk and Luhansk regions set up so-called "people's republics," declaring their independence from Kiev and demanding to be annexed by Russia. Hours after the ambush Thursday, members of the Luhansk People's Republic said their leader was to announce that the region would be under martial law until Ukraine withdrew its troops. "Martial law will be in force starting from May 22 and until the Kyiv authorities withdraw their troops from the territory of the Luhansk People's Republic," spokesman Volodymyr Inohorodskykh told Interfax Ukraine. Authorities in Kiev see Sunday's vote as a chance to defuse tensions and stabilize the country - but have acknowledged it might be difficult to stage the poll in some of the more volatile parts of the country. The Associated Press contributed to this report. Source. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
cause of fire the ministry of interal affairs (MIA) believes that epicenter of the house of trade unions was on the first floor of the right wing, and that the source of fire came from outside (molotovs thrown at it by maidan activists). this conflicts with MIA's earlier claims that the fire started on the roof. secretary of the national security and defense council, parubiy has earlier claimed facts confirmed that the fire came after explosives planted by terrorists, some of them russian, had gone off. there has been no reports of either explosives or terrorists in the trade union house. a MIA official reports that detained students seen mixing moltovs among the maidans at the greek square were being paid. chloroform poisioning according the deputy chief of the regional forensic bureau in odessa, kostruba, traces of chloroform has been found in the trade unions office. the head of the investigative commision, kisse, denies the claim that victims died due to chloroform poisioning, saying this has not been confirmed by the forensic experts. the first results of the investigative commision are to be made public the 15th of june, but more info will be released within the coming days wrt chloroform poisioning. head of the interior investigation department of the MIA, saka, suggested that chloroform killed most of the victims. the main lifeguard in odessa said 80% did not die of carbon monoxide poisioning, and that the cause may have been chloroform poisioning. dissatisfaction with investigation russia is insisting on an international investigation, the interior ministry keeps leaking confidential information from the investigation, security officials have not responded to questions by the investigative commission and 30 pro-govt protestors were demonstrating outside the odessa prosecutor's office yesterday, calling for a new prosecutor and more transparancy appointment of prosecutors. the head of investigation of MIA said there was no reliable data on maidan protestors finishing off people fleeing from the burning trade unions house, which angered members of the odessan regional council, who pointed to videos and photos showing maidans beating victims, amongst others deputy of the regional council markin, who later died in hospital. one of the deceased claimed he was beaten after he fell (but before he passed). armed activists one of the armed maidan activsts was detained and is currently under house arrest. 6 people (5 sustained injuries and died later) were killed in the may massacre as a result of gunshots (coming from both sides), several more wounded, among them 6 policemen. roadblock handgrenade according to former head of a police directorate in odessa, fučedži, the handgrenade that went off at an maidan checkpoint outside odessa in april the 25th and injured seven people belonged to the activsits and went off due to mishandling, and went on to say the activists hurt were under the influence of drugs, not feeling any pain. earlier a group called 'partisans of odessa' had taken responsibility on vkontakte. the maidan activists claimed it was thrown by a passing car. none of the activists were from odessa, and were initially turned away at the hospital, doctors claiming they were bums. it is being investiagted as a terrorist attack. this is the same road block where parubiy had a man to man with the fat, criminal gunman that was filmed firing at the trade union house, and making a dubious call to a high ranking official in kiev. i wonder who! on the 8th of may the osce reported that the checkpoint had been burned, and referred to the two people at it as members of self-defense, it was later re-manned and abandoned by the ukrainian military.. disclaimer: translators are shaky | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
The Odessa investigation was indeed discussed at the UN yesterday: But it looks like there's no actual news on this front. There's an ongoing investigation, both by Kyiv authorities and international bodies such as the UN human rights body. This is the UN ASG statement from the same meeting: As for the situation in Odessa, where reportedly clashes at a trade union building in the Black Sea city sparked a fire that killed and wounded dozens of people earlier this month, Mr. Šimonović said that what seems to be “beyond doubt is now the number of victims: 48 victims – six of them – and all of them were among pro-Ukrainians, died from gunshot wounds.” “That happened previously during conflicts between the two groups in the centre of the city,” he said, explaining that the other victims were anti-Government protesters that were either in the Trade Union building that were affected by the fire, or people who were jumping from the building to escape the consequences. “About [the] causes of the fire, it is being examined and it's very technical, however, it is also beyond doubt that Molotov cocktails have been thrown by both sides, flying from the building and into the building," he said, telling reporters that there were five investigations under way on the events, including those being carried out by national authorities in Kyiv and by independent bodies. Source. It's merely that Russia doesn't accept the UN human rights report: So, it remains unclear what kind of international independent investigation they want, if the body made up of members from all nations including themselves is not suitable. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
edit: according to the article lavrov says they want un or osce to get involved in the investigation of the may massacre, ie un would be suitable. the osce, in daily updates, has reported the situation after may massacre in odessa has been calm since ~6-8th of may and tense before. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
*** Here's a very detailed article on the character and policies of Poroshenko. Recommended reading considering he might win already in the first round, and is nearly guaranteed to win overall. *** Breaking news: Russia's President Putin has said he will respect the outcome of Ukraine's presidential election on Sunday. Speaking at an economic conference in St Petersburg on Friday, Mr Putin also said he believed Ukraine had descended into "full-scale civil war". BBC | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
Russian news videos which supposedly include 25th frames in them. The videos were edited to pause at the frame for a moment. The timings of the 25th frames are in the details to the videos. User was warned for this post | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On May 24 2014 01:35 nunez wrote: apparently ca. a week ago rus and ukr media reported on preliminary results of the investigation into the kiev shootings. the head of the investigative commission, moskal, stated that the bullets and cartridges found do not match berkut weaponry, and that the first shot were made at the police. previously monitor reported that the same bullets were used against both protestors and police, this was also stated in the leaked paet call. he also drew comparisons to the investigation into the jfk assasination, maybe showing his hand a bit early. It has been translated incorrectly, original sentence in Russian says that "first shot was fired by the police". Otherwise translation is fine. | ||
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