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Gorsameth
Netherlands22664 Posts
On May 22 2014 00:39 Nyxisto wrote: You really don't see that it's very disturbing that you have to resort to RT/weird blogs and anonymous reddit comments to make your point, right? If he got that he would have done so several hundred pages ago. | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
Poll: Much Ado About Nunez Give nunez his own thread so he doesn't have to derail this one (16) Get Kwark in here with a modnote and a banhammer. (6) I enjoy scrolling through 3 pages of bullshit to find news. (5) Ban everyone but Cheerio (Pro), Judicator (neutral) and ??? (Con) so we can have a TL quality thread (1) 28 total votes Your vote: Much Ado About Nunez (Vote): I enjoy scrolling through 3 pages of bullshit to find news. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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marigoldran
219 Posts
Basically: the people who took over Donetsk can't govern worth shit. The garbage is piling up. And no, RT is not a reliable news source. Unless of course you're reading it in order to believe the opposite. Then it's a very reliable news source. The fact that RT says they're legitimate journalists most likely means they're GRU spies. | ||
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PaleMan
Russian Federation1953 Posts
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Mc
332 Posts
On May 22 2014 01:18 marigoldran wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-chaos-meets-self-declared-independence-135523028.html Basically: the people who took over Donetsk can't govern worth shit. The garbage is piling up. And no, RT is not a reliable news source. Unless of course you're reading it in order to believe the opposite. Then it's a very reliable news source. The fact that RT says they're legitimate journalists most likely means they're GRU spies. I actually read RT articles sometimes for the following reasons: 1.) To understand the Ukrainian crisis it's important to understand for what sort of BS Russia is feeding the separatists and Russians. 2.) Western/Ukrainian media sometimes overlook some of the negative actions of the pro-Ukrainians while RT always makes sure to cover these actions. The issue is that you have to parse out the distortion/propaganda and try to extract only the facts. Sometimes this isn't that easy to do. Keep in mind that just because RT is a propaganda network that distorts the news, doesn't mean that all the information they provide is worthless. | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On May 22 2014 01:18 PaleMan wrote: i'd ban Jormundr instantly Funny, because I wouldn't do the same. You, greem, zeo, and any other pro-russians I'm missing (minus nunez) actually contribute to the thread without derailing it. | ||
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Acertos
France852 Posts
As for the commentators, even if nunez is quite radical, he is trying hard to make some points and also backs it up with everything he can find and that's not the case for some people like imo mari or paleman that have made countless totally baseless statements and are often too lazy to back anything up. | ||
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Greem
730 Posts
On May 22 2014 01:29 Jormundr wrote: Funny, because I wouldn't do the same. You, greem, zeo, and any other pro-russians I'm missing (minus nunez) actually contribute to the thread without derailing it. Lol i actually officially pro russian now, funny, have i missed the vote for this decision ? I'm sure Anti-Maidan neo nazi camp marching street with zieg heil and praying Bandera , if we go down labeling road, that is certain if you wanna label me in any way, or did the thing i said about Russian culture throw me in any political party ? Pathetic. And your vote about Nunez is quiete short to choose an answer, i much prefer guys who somehow oppose the big camp of popular ideas on forums and try to look at things differently. EDIT: Quick Translation, A Governor of Kherson speech on 9th may implying that Soviet Union was enslaving Ukraine as it get rid of Hitler who tried to HELP the World to get rid of Communism. I mean you couldn't hear monstrosities like this before the Maidan, i don't know what drove this politician to tell things like this on public meeting. | ||
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tadL
Croatia679 Posts
Just terrible, I think any country should solve their problems by their own. And if the people decide to kill each other for the freedom of choice then let them do it. Just let them do their thing for their own. But this wont happen  They dont need USA/Europe or Russia to tell them what they want. People know what they want. If it splits up thats their decision. But the sad truth is Ukraine is not free to decide their own future. USA will not allow it. Even if they would vote and get a new democratic elected president that wants to join with russia USA will do the same thing they did over and over again and remove him. Same for the Russians ofc. | ||
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Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On May 22 2014 01:48 Greem wrote: Lol i actually officially pro russian now, funny, have i missed the vote for this decision ? I'm sure Anti-Maidan neo nazi camp marching street with zieg heil and praying Bandera , if we go down labeling road, that is certain if you wanna label me in any way, or did the thing i said about Russian culture throw me in any political party ? Pathetic. And your vote about Nunez is quiete short to choose an answer, i much prefer guys who somehow oppose the big camp of popular ideas on forums and try to look at things differently. EDIT: Quick Translation, A Governor of Kherson speech on 9th may implying that Soviet Union was enslaving Ukraine as it get rid of Hitler who tried to HELP the World to get rid of Communism. I mean you couldn't hear monstrosities like this before the Maidan, i don't know what drove this politician to tell things like this on public meeting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkElDhiZRGg Partially he is right, Soviet Union was a enslaving half of the Europe for almost 50 years, however Hitler part is despicable. In Poland he would get at least heavily fined for that shit. I am not sure what is driving people to say such cretinisms, but we have a fair share of such idiots in Poland too. | ||
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PaleMan
Russian Federation1953 Posts
On May 22 2014 02:21 Roman666 wrote: Partially he is right, Soviet Union was a enslaving half of the Europe for almost 50 years, however Hitler part is despicable. In Poland he would get at least heavily fined for that shit. I am not sure what is driving people to say such cretinisms, but we have a fair share of such idiots in Poland too. don't forget he is not just random person, he is a governor | ||
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tadL
Croatia679 Posts
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marigoldran
219 Posts
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Mc
332 Posts
You're really over-estimating the USA/Europe's influence in Ukraine. 1.) threats of sanctions, freezing of funds, against corrupt Oligarchs/politicians. 2.) English language media which only some Ukrainians would read (and those Ukrainians are usually middle-class pro-Westerners already). 3.) funds going to "pro-democracy" NGOs that are inherently pro-Western and anti-Russian (since Russia is inherently anti-democracy, and the West is democratic). 4.) the "promise of a better future" - i.e. join the West and we give you free trade, possibility of democratic and economic development. 5.) Bail out money and investment. Russia has a few key advantages for more direct interference: 1.) Russian language media is read/watched by most(?) Ukrainians (especially in the East). 2.) FSB has strong connections to some Ukrainian politicians, oligarchs, and SBU. 3.) Decades of experience in 'controlling'/'manipulating' Ukraine 4.) Near total control over Ukrainian access to natural gas. 5.) A strong national/political desire to have Ukraine be in their camp (a lot of Western countries begrudgingly are forced into supporting Ukraine without an inherent desire to do so) 6.) Strong cultural and language ties. | ||
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tadL
Croatia679 Posts
And as I said, I think no one should intervene in the Ukraine process at all. Both parties tried their best to manipulate and get the Ukraine on their side. EU for obvious reasons as Russia. It just seems that Russia just coined and dropped a strong move and Europe is not even close to ready to mess with Russia in this. I just fear that USA will make a stupid move and do more damage than is needed. But as it is Obhamas last period he does not need to start a war to get a secure election done. | ||
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marigoldran
219 Posts
I'd argue Russia was the one who got out-maneuvered. They're the ones playing catch up to Yanu's fall, and trying to get the most out of a bad situation. Their actions have given NATO the political cover and the impetus to establish bases next to their borders. Also, the shi- that Russia did in Ukraine is going to hurt them politically with regards to the Baltic countries and Georgia. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Russia's President Vladimir Putin has signed a multi-billion dollar, 30-year gas deal with China. The deal between Russia's Gazprom and China National Petroleum Corp (CNPC) has been 10 years in the making. Russia has been keen to find an alternative energy market for its gas as it faces the possibility of European sanctions over the crisis in Ukraine. No official price has been given but it is estimated to be worth over $400bn. Russian sources indicate the price is something like 10% lower but with a fair bit of advance payment from China. For the record: Yahoo is as biased as RT is, but without as much actual local coverage. Criticizing RT then linking Yahoo is rather hypocritical. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
I agree that no one should interfere with Ukraine, but I believe the West's interference isn't as significant. I believe most of the interference is simply offering "good things" for Ukraine (free-trade, help building democracy, loans, free $$$), for which the West hopes to benefit by gaining easier access to the Ukrainian markets. Russia's interference is way more direct. But we probably disagree on that  @UKRAINIAN/RUSSIAN speakers Supposedly a bunch of Africans were forced to do 'slave labour' by separatists. Not sure I buy this though. Could anyone explain what is going on and what is being said? | ||
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tadL
Croatia679 Posts
@Mc: I dont say EU is offering bad. I dont say the Russian opportunity is good. I just disagree that they will be able to really choose free. And if we just reduce the Ukraine on a stratigic objects its way to important for both sides. | ||
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