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On March 07 2014 05:02 TheFish7 wrote:Interesting interview with the former head of the Stolen Asset Recovery Initiative (World Bank) on recovering Yanukovich's disappeared assets. Show nested quote +WERTHEIMER: The one with a private zoo.
GILMAN: With a private zoo and the golf course and the bowling alley, and all of the other stuff that went along with it. All of that basically was paid for by state funds. But a lot of those state funds didn't go directly to the property. A lot of it was basically skimmed off. Outrageous prices for chandeliers. Name plates - 10,000 U.S. dollars for name plates for the animals in the zoo.
All of that was skimmed off in terms of this holding company, Tantalite, which is in turn owned jointly by a U.K. and Austrian firm, which is in turn basically part of the bank holding by Yanukovych's son.
So you basically have a lot of those electronic records. You find out where those properties, those funds, landed. And the state basically then asked that the assets be frozen, that correspondent banking transactions, which are how moneys flow electronically around the world, are frozen, in order to prevent Yanukovych and all of his associates from moving the money and hiding it in a more difficult place.
WERTHEIMER: So with this much money flowing out of the country in a fairly complicated way - not into bank accounts but as sort of clouded as investments and companies - what do you think the chances are of getting very much of it back?
GILMAN: Well, I think that they're good to get 20 or 25 percent back, which is tragic. I mean it's tragic. I mean Ukrainians really need those funds. And the tragedy is basically the funds that the U.S. and U.K. are promising to funnel into the Ukraine are generally owed to Russian banks, which of course were part of the corruption in the Yanukovych regime because they were taking cuts off of the top - charging exorbitant funds, giving kickbacks and all of this. sourceShow nested quote +On March 07 2014 03:28 Sent. wrote:
I hate how our media and politicians exaggerate the American involvement in Poland. Wow they're going to send 12 old jets here for a while, I feel much safer now! Agreed, the SU37 is a superior fighter for the most part, not sure what F-16s are supposed to do against that except as a show of solidarity or something
The SU-37 was nothing more than a testbed
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On March 07 2014 06:08 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 05:08 likeasu wrote:On March 07 2014 04:13 Gorsameth wrote:On March 07 2014 04:04 likeasu wrote:On March 07 2014 03:51 Gorsameth wrote:
They protested because Yanokovich didnt want an EU treaty. noo... you kidding me. ARE YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN IT??!?!?!?! ahhahaahahah LOL So why for present time new ukrainian government didnt this stap???? If EU treaty is a real maidan MAIN reason... Why it isnt made immediately??!?! It was only stupid mative for getting power in the country. If Maiden main goal was to overthrow Yanokovich why did it do nothing until Yanokovich turned to violence? I Yanokovich didnt use violence nothing would have come off these protests. It makes 0 sense for them to be a mains to overthrow the government when the you realize that. Yanokovich overthrew himself. It is normal for protestors to be beaten and arrested in Russia. Its not normal in most of the remaining world. ps. To other people. Dont flame him for his typing. Not everyone knows how flawless english. He is making the effort to type. Make the effort to read it. If I understood you right, I wanna to say "big thanks to you" =) sorry for lexicon and grammatic mistakes. But I should say one thing about text you wrote: It is normal for protestors to be beaten and arrested in Russia. Why do you think so? From what facts? Stupid Pussy Riot or other shit stuff like this? Is this the only what you see from tv-reports from Russia? Pfff In March 2012 about 100.000 people were on strike "for clear votes" on Maneg square in the center of Moscow. 100 thousands of people and a lot of military people were standing "face to face" during all protest event. And what? No one seriously hit and sure no one killed. Of course police cached drunked or crazy provocateurs (idiots can be everywhere). Because the main target of oppositions and people was idea "government dont forget about us.. we are here". The maidan main target was "getting top power". When peaceful methods didnt work, they have to spill some blood. Who is "they"? I dont know exact peoples names. To find their names you should understand who paid money for Maidan. 40.000 people were standing 3!!! months there. It was a little town with hot meal, bio-tuallets (not so comfortable like a double tuallets in Sochi of course^_^), energy, transport, flags, tribune, clothes, doctors, translation and so on... DO YOU THINK THAT ordinary people paid for it? People who believe in bright ideas were just toys and instrument. The west had the Occupy movement a while back. They protested in our streets for a long time aswell without being payed to do so. When people feel strongly about something they are willing to do that. Also don't forget while people are protesting there is a lot of people who agree with them. While they are not in the street themselves for a lot of reasons, mostly not wanting to give up work i guess, they do bring food/supplies to protestors out of compassion. Make people mad enough and they will protests for months to get there point across.
the overwhelming majority are fed up with corrupt shits in power and want democracy and social equality, all the good stuff you wouldn't mind getting behind, but those are not the ones getting the USAID or endowment for democracy skrill. i doubt these were the people at the front line of protests in ukraine, inciting violence and escalating tensions.
violent fascists backed by neo-liberal money must not be conflated with the peoples opposition to repression like it was in the syria clusterfuck. there's no way the non-dollar part of the world will get behind that and it provides them with an easy way to opt out and marginalize the people fighting the good fight... "yet another crew of us backed fascists to hold the country down while their coorporations suck it dry" is an easy sell.
not entirely on your post, but relevant story for you! source
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-crimea-vote-russia-kievCrimea's deputy prime minister, Rustam Temirgaliev, said the referendum was now only to "confirm" parliament's decision, and he considered Crimea to be part of Russia already. He said that all Ukrainian troops on the territory should either leave or be treated as occupiers. Crimea is planning to introduce the rouble and readopt Russian state symbols.
The Russian president Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday that Russia was "not considering" annexing Crimea, but on Thursday, Sergei Mironov, a Russian MP, said the Duma, Russia's parliament, could consider the issue as early as next week. The Duma has already begun work on a bill that would make it easier for Russia to join new territories, clearly penned with one eye on Crimea events.
Vladimir Konstantinov, speaker of the Crimean parliament, said the new authorities in Kiev were a "junta, which came to power and is trying to legalise itself".
He said: "We can beat them only with force. I am convinced there will be no order in the country until adequate force is used to destroy this system."
There is little international presence in the region, after the UN's special envoy was forced to leave when he was confronted by an angry gang on Wednesday. A bus of 43 unarmed OSCE military observers from 23 countries was denied entry to the peninsula by a checkpoint of armed irregulars on Thursday, and had to turn back.
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On March 07 2014 06:12 Skullflower wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 05:02 TheFish7 wrote:Interesting interview with the former head of the Stolen Asset Recovery Initiative (World Bank) on recovering Yanukovich's disappeared assets. WERTHEIMER: The one with a private zoo.
GILMAN: With a private zoo and the golf course and the bowling alley, and all of the other stuff that went along with it. All of that basically was paid for by state funds. But a lot of those state funds didn't go directly to the property. A lot of it was basically skimmed off. Outrageous prices for chandeliers. Name plates - 10,000 U.S. dollars for name plates for the animals in the zoo.
All of that was skimmed off in terms of this holding company, Tantalite, which is in turn owned jointly by a U.K. and Austrian firm, which is in turn basically part of the bank holding by Yanukovych's son.
So you basically have a lot of those electronic records. You find out where those properties, those funds, landed. And the state basically then asked that the assets be frozen, that correspondent banking transactions, which are how moneys flow electronically around the world, are frozen, in order to prevent Yanukovych and all of his associates from moving the money and hiding it in a more difficult place.
WERTHEIMER: So with this much money flowing out of the country in a fairly complicated way - not into bank accounts but as sort of clouded as investments and companies - what do you think the chances are of getting very much of it back?
GILMAN: Well, I think that they're good to get 20 or 25 percent back, which is tragic. I mean it's tragic. I mean Ukrainians really need those funds. And the tragedy is basically the funds that the U.S. and U.K. are promising to funnel into the Ukraine are generally owed to Russian banks, which of course were part of the corruption in the Yanukovych regime because they were taking cuts off of the top - charging exorbitant funds, giving kickbacks and all of this. sourceOn March 07 2014 03:28 Sent. wrote:
I hate how our media and politicians exaggerate the American involvement in Poland. Wow they're going to send 12 old jets here for a while, I feel much safer now! Agreed, the SU37 is a superior fighter for the most part, not sure what F-16s are supposed to do against that except as a show of solidarity or something The SU-37 was nothing more than a testbed
Yes which spawned several different variants currently being employed by the Russian military
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No de-escalation in sight...
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I am genuinely curious how they could get a de-escalation. If you are an average Russian and you are told that Kiev is ruled by a junta of Neo Nazis and is in chaos supported by NATO/US imperialists who are getting ready to unleash blood thirsty Tatars on innocent Russians, how can you just walk away from that without being seen as selling out Russians to genocide?
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On March 07 2014 07:24 Sub40APM wrote:I am genuinely curious how they could get a de-escalation. If you are an average Russian and you are told that Kiev is ruled by a junta of Neo Nazis and is in chaos supported by NATO/US imperialists who are getting ready to unleash blood thirsty Tatars on innocent Russians, how can you just walk away from that without being seen as selling out Russians to genocide?
Errr, they just start a different record on state media. And generally continue to disregard public opinion.
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On March 07 2014 07:28 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 07:24 Sub40APM wrote:I am genuinely curious how they could get a de-escalation. If you are an average Russian and you are told that Kiev is ruled by a junta of Neo Nazis and is in chaos supported by NATO/US imperialists who are getting ready to unleash blood thirsty Tatars on innocent Russians, how can you just walk away from that without being seen as selling out Russians to genocide? Errr, they just start a different record on state media. And generally continue to disregard public opinion.
Maybe but building a powerful Russian nationalism is party of rallying the people to the state, I dont think you can just turn that off. And if you are Putin -- and appear to be paranoid that Maidan is just a warm up for a revolution in Russia -- wouldnt you be worried that Western puppet manipulators will gleefully broadcast sad Russians in Crimea crying about being abandoned by Putin at the last minute and handed over to fascists? I am not being sarcastic here -- if the Russians leave Crimea, it goes back to Ukraine in anyway the actual people on the ground will be in for a massive emotional trauma.
I guess the only way it doesnt look like abandoning if the spin turns towards "Look what we forced the fascists to do, abandon their extremist genocide plans and allow Eastern Ukrainians representation in government. So we saved you" but still, if you are saying stuff like "I already consider us part of Russia and we have Russian experts on the ground telling us what to do and Ukrainian soldiers are occupiers" then how do you turn that off? I guess maybe thats why no one from the Party of Regions is going on tv in Crimea and saying inflammatory things, they can always pack away these "Russia Unity" guys and go back to things as usual after wards.
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I don't understand why they are trying to rush the association agreement. It will look like the West wants to extort something
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Ukraine signs the money deals way to fast (while still being a country with huge corruption issues). Other EU candidates waited in line for years.
it's fishy to say the least.
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On March 07 2014 07:50 xM(Z wrote:
Ukraine signs the money deals way to fast (while still being a country with huge corruption issues). Other EU candidates waited in line for years.
it's fishy to say the least.
Its not an ascension treaty. Its an association treaty. Yanukovich signed it, the EU suspended it because in its view the political arrest of Timonshenko.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Association_Agreement
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On March 07 2014 07:35 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 07:28 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 07 2014 07:24 Sub40APM wrote:I am genuinely curious how they could get a de-escalation. If you are an average Russian and you are told that Kiev is ruled by a junta of Neo Nazis and is in chaos supported by NATO/US imperialists who are getting ready to unleash blood thirsty Tatars on innocent Russians, how can you just walk away from that without being seen as selling out Russians to genocide? Errr, they just start a different record on state media. And generally continue to disregard public opinion. Maybe but building a powerful Russian nationalism is party of rallying the people to the state, I dont think you can just turn that off. And if you are Putin -- and appear to be paranoid that Maidan is just a warm up for a revolution in Russia -- wouldnt you be worried that Western puppet manipulators will gleefully broadcast sad Russians in Crimea crying about being abandoned by Putin at the last minute and handed over to fascists? I am not being sarcastic here -- if the Russians leave Crimea, it goes back to Ukraine in anyway the actual people on the ground will be in for a massive emotional trauma. I guess the only way it doesnt look like abandoning if the spin turns towards "Look what we forced the fascists to do, abandon their extremist genocide plans and allow Eastern Ukrainians representation in government. So we saved you" but still, if you are saying stuff like "I already consider us part of Russia and we have Russian experts on the ground telling us what to do and Ukrainian soldiers are occupiers" then how do you turn that off? I guess maybe thats why no one from the Party of Regions is going on tv in Crimea and saying inflammatory things, they can always pack away these "Russia Unity" guys and go back to things as usual after wards.
The classic "If you climb far enough up in a tree, you cannot get down."
Become too extreme on a subject and you end up with a problem of explaining your earlier stances when you smarten up. A very common occurance in discussions among stubborn laymen and among politicians before a negotiation.
For media though? I guess it is as humiliating as it gets. But FOX news is very popular, so overt biases aren't necessarily bad for business...
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On March 07 2014 07:52 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 07:50 xM(Z wrote:
Ukraine signs the money deals way to fast (while still being a country with huge corruption issues). Other EU candidates waited in line for years.
it's fishy to say the least. Its not an ascension treaty. Its an association treaty. Yanukovich signed it, the EU suspended it because in its view the political arrest of Timonshenko. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Association_Agreement
Small correction. It was Yanukovych suspending signature of the agreement november 21th and the refusal of doing it on the big european summit november 28-29 in Vilnius that led to the mostly peaceful start of Euromaidan.
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http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2014/03/eu-russia-and-ukraine
Until the evening of March 5th, when foreign ministers were meeting in Paris to try to set up the contact group, it seemed unlikely the Europeans would move so far. Germany, in particular, was keen not to upset its question for a diplomatic solution (as explained in Charlemagne here).
President François Hollande of France said a combination of factors changed the mood and stiffened Europe’s resolve. One was the vote by the Crimean parliament for the peninsula to rejoin Russia, to be sealed in a rush through a referendum on March 16th. Another was the refusal to allow a group of international monitors to visit Crimea. A third was the action of pro-Russian mob that forced a UN special envoy, Robert Serry, to seek refuge in a café in Crimea and eventually leave the region. Diplomats add several more elements: the failure of the Paris talks to reach agreement on a contact group; the failure of talks in Moscow between Mr Putin and Germany’s deputy chancellor, Sigmar Gabriel; and the announcement that America was preparing to impose visa bans and asset freezes on those deemed responsible for the invasion of Crimea.
As opposition leaders took over the transitional government in Ukraine, EU governments wanted to wait for new elections and a permanent government to be established before signing the accord. Awkwardly, having promised the deal to the bloodstained Mr Yanukovych, they could hardly deny the agreement to those who had died waving the EU’s flag. The intense suspicion surrounding Ukraine’s new crop of leaders, especially from protesters on Maidan’s Square, was apparent from another intercepted conversation leaked this week, this time between the Estonian foreign minister, Urmas Paet, and Cathy Ashton, the EU’s foreign-policy chief. The two are heard to discuss a conspiracy theory among Maidan protesters that the snipers fired on both protesters and policemen, and were hired by somebody in the opposition parties rather than Mr Yanukovych.
But Russia’s action is forcing EU leaders to set aside their qualms. As one diplomat put it, more than one leader came to the summit thinking their task was to defend their economic interests from the threat of sanctions, and left thinking the security or Europe was at stake. Mr Yatseniuk made an impassioned plea at the summit for the EU to press ahead with the association agreement. Leaders decided to split the accord into its “political” and “economic” parts. The former would be signed in the coming days or weeks, probably in Kiev; the latter would be left to an unspecified future date. This means that Kiev will immediately gain the symbolism of closer ties with the EU.
Ukrainians arent getting the money without any ties or conditions. That will be negotiated. They are getting symbolic political support as a direct response to Putin's action in Crimea.
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On March 07 2014 08:04 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 07:52 Sub40APM wrote:On March 07 2014 07:50 xM(Z wrote:
Ukraine signs the money deals way to fast (while still being a country with huge corruption issues). Other EU candidates waited in line for years.
it's fishy to say the least. Its not an ascension treaty. Its an association treaty. Yanukovich signed it, the EU suspended it because in its view the political arrest of Timonshenko. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Association_Agreement Small correction. It was Yanukovych suspending signature of the agreement november 21th and the refusal of doing it on the big european summit november 28-29 in Vilnius that led to the mostly peaceful start of Euromaidan.
Its actually a bit more complex than that. First we had this: http://www.neurope.eu/article/ukraine-eu-association-agreement-be-signed-2012 On 22 January at the Ukraine National Palace Yanukovych: “Ukraine will sign an association agreement including a deep and comprehensive free-trade area with the European Union in 2012. This year we will conclude the association agreement and the agreement on the free trade area."
Then: http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2012/04/ukraine-and-eu With Europeans showing an interest in values again, it could take years for the EU-Ukraine agreement to pass—especially now that Ms Tymoshenko is facing further criminal charges.
Moreover, both sides have other concerns. Brussels did not bother to organise a press conference after the initialling. Ukrainian politicians are busy bartering in the run-up to parliamentary elections scheduled for October. Still, “European integration remains Ukraine's unchanging priority”, President Viktor Yanukovich told readers of the Polish publication Gazeta Prawna on Sunday.
Then the Vilnius breakdown and Euromaidan.
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just fyi, Russia said they (and China) would sell all treasury bonds if "the west" would freeze russian accounts and place economic sanctions on them.
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On March 07 2014 08:34 Saumure wrote:
just fyi, Russia said they (and China) would sell all treasury bonds if "the west" would freeze russian accounts and place economic sanctions on them.
The Russians said that China would do this or did China say this?
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Was not really specified who said what. But it doesn't really matter, because if Russia and the Russian billionaires sell, China could not afford not to sell... (edit: hypothetically ofc, I don't want to get in any trouble here)
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Can someone explain to me what selling dollar cash reserves would actually accomplish? Wouldn't that just drive the dollar exchange rate a little down? Well cool then the US can export a little better. Is that a real threat?
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On March 07 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
Can someone explain to me what selling dollar cash reserves would actually accomplish? Wouldn't that just drive the dollar exchange rate a little down? Well cool then the US can export a little better. Is that a real threat?
It would also cause some other currency that the Russians will rotate their savings into to go up.
I think people who believe that this is a 'real' threat imagine a scenario where somehow the interest rates on US treasuries will go up and then somehow 'destroy' the US dollar. I am personally not clear on the mechanism they imagine that will do it -- but certainly if we look at how much Treasury debt the Federal Reserve has eaten over the last 4-5 years I am pretty sure they could absorb all of Russia's treasury sales. And of course if Russia is selling the entire horde at once, the prices will be driven down, maybe even the Treasury of the US will buy some just to retire the debt at a discount...
On March 07 2014 08:43 Saumure wrote:
Was not really specified who said what. But it doesn't really matter, because if Russia and the Russian billionaires sell, China could not afford not to sell... (edit: hypothetically ofc, I don't want to get in any trouble here)
why cant they afford it? Selling now would just mean losing money...in fact since China has been guiding the yuan exchange down -- and since the mechanism for this is purchase or sale of US treasuries depending on which way they want to go -- I bet they would want to get in on the Russian sale as buyers, since again, the sale of large amount of US debt would have to be done at a discount...
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EPT
