On March 05 2014 09:55 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Hope this crisis won't affect relashionships between normal people in russia and ukraine, considering that both got a lot relatives behind borders.
unfortunately most of my VK.com contacts from rus and ukr have forgone cats and are actively quarreling amongst each other
On March 05 2014 09:55 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Hope this crisis won't affect relashionships between normal people in russia and ukraine, considering that both got a lot relatives behind borders.
unfortunately most of my VK.com contacts from rus and ukr have forgone cats and are actively quarreling amongst each other
It is very personal, my friends remains the same and nothing is broken. But what is bad, that all of us are affected by ridiculous amount of correct/wrong information, and to collect everything what's real or not - takes some time.
From my personal observations, Putin reunited ppl in Ukraine, and forced em not to "love" him, but nothing has changed in relashionships with normal russian citizens.
The end is so surreal. The reporter has a press card from the Russian Federation. So the crowd of Cossacks/people that are surrounding the Ukrainian base and are talking about cutting off water and electricity to them then rips it away and asks "Where is your Ukrainian press card"
Dunno if anyone ever brought this up. When the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine ended up as the third largest nuclear power with 1900 Soviet warheads. In exchange for a guarantee of Russia and everyone respecting their borders, they gave the nukes to Russia. Russia has pretty much broken that treaty...
Ukraine gotten rid of those nukes or those warheads have been disarmed to the point where you will have to use them as a dirty bomb. Plus, Ukraine lacks any capability to use those warheads.
The end is so surreal. The reporter has a press card from the Russian Federation. So the crowd of Cossacks/people that are surrounding the Ukrainian base and are talking about cutting off water and electricity to them then rips it away and asks "Where is your Ukrainian press card"
Saddest part is, ukrainian and russian soldiers seem to be the stabilizing factor, not the people. Seems like a lot of rooting for escalation from that side, whereas soldiers seem pretty calm (understandable, since most of them were brothers in arms at some point).
Also, is there a reason why they dress up so idiotic? I mean i understand its carnival, but come on.
Significantly, the unity movement in Donetsk is backed by "ultras" – fanatical supporters of the local Shakhtar football club, one of Ukraine's two top teams. In the violent street protests which eventually forced Yanukovych to flee the country, Shakhtar ultras fought alongside their arch-rivals from Kiev's Dynamo. On Sunday the ultras from each team played against each other in the country's capital in a continued display of unity. The game ended in an uncontroversial 1-1 draw.
On Tuesday evening the largest pro-unity rally in Donetsk attracted more than one thousand people. Protesters carried Ukrainian flags and chanted "Donbas is Ukraine" and "Putin go home". Shakhtar football club ultras flanked ordinary demonstrators saying they were there "to protect the people".
"Why should we have a referendum? It is unconstitutional for Donetsk to do this on its own", said Dimitry Goryainov, a urologist who joined the rally. "We are against the separation of Ukraine," he added. "The main problem here is people are scared the new government needs to reassure them by calling parliamentary elections after the presidential election."
Even the members of the local Cossacks – a staunchly pro-Russian group – are firmly against military intervention by Moscow.
"Ukraine can solve its internal problems on its own," said the Cossacks' leader, Vadim Zhmarin. "We are against any troops entering Ukrainian soil – Nato or Russia," he added.
On March 05 2014 08:56 RvB wrote: I don't really see any intelligent and calculated politics anyway, what is Putin actually gaining out of this? He's not getting more than Crimea and he already lost all the goodwill he had by organizing the olympics.
He only wants Crimea. He needs it for the Black Sea fleet and thus requires it to keep it's status quo: Russian friendly & partly autonomous.
Ukrainian nationalists (*cough* Nazis "[You are the ones] that the Moscow-Jewish mafia ruling Ukraine fears most") from Swoboda like Oleh Tyahnybok pushed for removing all that even before Maidan. Now with a lot of them in a high political position it was a high probability that they would've pushed for it again; which can be seen by the idea of removing Russian as official language.
Ok, let's cleat this out. According to Ukrainian Constitution:
"The state language in Ukraine is Ukrainian language. ... Ukraine guarantees free development, usage and protection of Russian and other languages of minorities."
"The minorities are granted the right to study in native language or to study native language in educational institutions" and others.
So Russian language could never have the same status as Ukrainian unless the Constitution was changed. It never was in that regard.
The language law of 2012 was very vaguely worded. It was accepted after a scandal when the amedment that the opposition was insisting at was omitted just before the voting. So it was basically accepted thanks to a political fraud. The Speaker of Parliament at the timed resigned the next day, but his resignation was not accepted and he stayed for another 6 months (or so).
The important part about the law was basically the following: - it introduced the concept of the regional language, which is the language that at least 10% of the territory's population has as native, but in some cases even less than that. - in the territories where the regional languages are present, basically everyone and everything from governmental institutions and companies to any person are obliged "to take measures for the development, usege and protection of the regional languages" whatever that means.
The conclusion: 1) the language law was a badly written law and was asking to get axed. 2) the Russian language never had an official status. Under the language law the state just obliged everyone to "develop and protect" it.
I am trying to understand what was so outrageous about that language law, that one of the first things that the new Rada did was vote to remove it. The timing seems beyond nuts.
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-26435333 "We need men aged 18-45 who are already in Ukraine, or are ready to go," says the "Civil Defence of Ukraine" page on VKontakte, the main Russian-language social network. The page was set up just over a week ago and has more than 7,000 followers. It includes an online form calling for recruits and is asking male volunteers to cross the border, to offer what it calls "moral support" to people they believe have been put at risk by the recent "coup".
On March 05 2014 12:38 kukarachaa wrote: I am trying to understand what was so outrageous about that language law, that one of the first things that the new Rada did was vote to remove it. The timing seems beyond nuts.
The legislation process by which it was implemented was unconstitutional. Still, I do agree it was removed too hastily, antagonized people and gave another reason to back up Russian propaganda. There were and are much more pressing concerns that Rada should take care of.
Georgia's breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which won de facto independence with the aid of Russian troops after a brief 2008 war, are black holes for Russian tax dollars. In April, the International Crisis Group (ICG) reported that Moscow had earmarked $350 million for infrastructure projects in Abkhazia between 2010 and 2012, with that number expected to triple to $1 billion between 2013 and 2015, but that only half of the $350 million had been spent because of mismanagement and corruption.
The group noted that Abkhazia—which is located just miles from Sochi, the site of this year’s Winter Olympics—effectively depended on Moscow for a staggering 70 percent of its budget and also received roughly $70 million in pension payments for Abkhaz residents, many of whom have Russian passports. “Abkhazia’s economy is like a drug addict on Russian help,” the report quoted an opposition figure in the region as saying. “We want real help to support our economic development, not ‘facade’ assistance.
These figures may seem like drops in the bucket for a Russian government that just poured $51 billion into the Olympics and plans to spend $440 billion in 2014, but the geopolitical philanthropy Moscow offers to these breakaway regions is a serious drain on Russia’s struggling, oil-and-gas-dependent economy.
If Crimea becomes another territory under de facto Russian control, Moscow would likely be forced to pick up the tab yet again. And keep in mind: The peninsula has 2 million inhabitants, which makes it 40 times the size of South Ossetia, eight times the size of Abkhazia, and four times the size of Transnistria. That adds up to a lot of pension payment for Crimea’s residents, 20 percent of whom are over the age of 60.
Faced with these dim economic prospects, Crimea could turn to illicit activities to generate state income. Breakaway regions have a reputation for cultivating smuggling and black markets—whether because they have few revenue streams, because local authorities are busy enriching themselves, or because they are not integrated into the international legal system. In a 2011 investigation of smuggling in Transnistria, for instance, the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations reported that between 2005 and 2011, authorities along the Moldovan-Ukrainian border carried out 10 interdictions of radioactive materials and interrupted 587 illicit weapons shipments.
On top of it all, according to Hill, the seizure of Crimea may ultimately cost Russia more influence in Ukraine than it gains.
“Having worked with Russian officials, I can tell you they don’t understand social movements,” he told me. “They perceive everything as orchestrated from the top. They don’t understand that they’re risking long-term hostility from across Ukraine.”
Georgia's breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which won de facto independence with the aid of Russian troops after a brief 2008 war, are black holes for Russian tax dollars. In April, the International Crisis Group (ICG) reported that Moscow had earmarked $350 million for infrastructure projects in Abkhazia between 2010 and 2012, with that number expected to triple to $1 billion between 2013 and 2015, but that only half of the $350 million had been spent because of mismanagement and corruption.
The group noted that Abkhazia—which is located just miles from Sochi, the site of this year’s Winter Olympics—effectively depended on Moscow for a staggering 70 percent of its budget and also received roughly $70 million in pension payments for Abkhaz residents, many of whom have Russian passports. “Abkhazia’s economy is like a drug addict on Russian help,” the report quoted an opposition figure in the region as saying. “We want real help to support our economic development, not ‘facade’ assistance.
These figures may seem like drops in the bucket for a Russian government that just poured $51 billion into the Olympics and plans to spend $440 billion in 2014, but the geopolitical philanthropy Moscow offers to these breakaway regions is a serious drain on Russia’s struggling, oil-and-gas-dependent economy.
If Crimea becomes another territory under de facto Russian control, Moscow would likely be forced to pick up the tab yet again. And keep in mind: The peninsula has 2 million inhabitants, which makes it 40 times the size of South Ossetia, eight times the size of Abkhazia, and four times the size of Transnistria. That adds up to a lot of pension payment for Crimea’s residents, 20 percent of whom are over the age of 60.
Faced with these dim economic prospects, Crimea could turn to illicit activities to generate state income. Breakaway regions have a reputation for cultivating smuggling and black markets—whether because they have few revenue streams, because local authorities are busy enriching themselves, or because they are not integrated into the international legal system. In a 2011 investigation of smuggling in Transnistria, for instance, the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations reported that between 2005 and 2011, authorities along the Moldovan-Ukrainian border carried out 10 interdictions of radioactive materials and interrupted 587 illicit weapons shipments.
On top of it all, according to Hill, the seizure of Crimea may ultimately cost Russia more influence in Ukraine than it gains.
“Having worked with Russian officials, I can tell you they don’t understand social movements,” he told me. “They perceive everything as orchestrated from the top. They don’t understand that they’re risking long-term hostility from across Ukraine.”
This article conveniently ignores the fact that Crimea is infinitely less corrupt and infinitely more profitable than Abkhazia and South Ossetia. haha If what the article suggests were remotely true, the Russians wouldn't bother. A & SO are welfare missions more than anything else. Crimea would be a huge profit and I don't see in what world it would instantly transform to A & SO status.
If Crimea = huge profit to the Russians then that would imply that wealth would be going out of the Crimea presumably to Russia which would require the Russian government to spend money there or have the citizenry's standard of living decrease. There are already a million+ Russians that vacation in the Crimea every year having some of that money - this "profit" from Crimea has to come from somewhere - go out of Crimea back to some oligarch(s) in Russia instead of being spent or saved mostly by Crimeans won't endear many to Moscow unless they are recompensed somehow. And that's just one industry that could be exploited so Putin Inc. can ensure that it (not necessarily Russia) makes a profit.
So the question is how is Crimea would be a "huge profit" to Russia. Could this be accomplished successfully without impoverishing Crimea.
Crimea is potentially more taxing on Russia than A & SO simply because it has more people to hand out Russian passports and benefits to. Never mind that Russia has already decided to spend significant amounts of money on A & SO without much financial return. The real reward to the kind of average Russian Putin depends on for his popularity and ultimately his power is controlling the land. It has more to do with romantic-nationalist revanchist feelings than making money. Russia regaining what the decadent West took away. I won't say it's fascist but it's close in that sense. So Russia may not mind spending lots of money to little return in rubles and that hardly speaks to the Russians behaving in the calculated manner the West is used to believing they behave in.
Maybe if the only costs Moscow had to deal with were some new puppet or direct administration of Crimea and making that "huge profit" it would be okay, but foreign capital is starting to wave bye-bye to Russia and Crimea's importance in world military or political strategy is pretty small really. I don't understand why Russia would say it could totally take care of any economic dependencies it currently has with the West, it doesn't really need the West for anything economically. Statements like that are more reminiscent of hilarious Pravda declarations, published missives by Mr. Kruschev and others of ridiculous boasts about surpassing the West economically. It's more suited to North Korea. Putin should want to appear conciliatory to cool things down and let the West lose focus like it usually does. Instead it's a bunker mentality from Moscow that allows the new Kiev government to keep rhetorically escalating the situation and keeps Western attention focused and its frustration with Russia increasing.
Georgia's breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which won de facto independence with the aid of Russian troops after a brief 2008 war, are black holes for Russian tax dollars. In April, the International Crisis Group (ICG) reported that Moscow had earmarked $350 million for infrastructure projects in Abkhazia between 2010 and 2012, with that number expected to triple to $1 billion between 2013 and 2015, but that only half of the $350 million had been spent because of mismanagement and corruption.
The group noted that Abkhazia—which is located just miles from Sochi, the site of this year’s Winter Olympics—effectively depended on Moscow for a staggering 70 percent of its budget and also received roughly $70 million in pension payments for Abkhaz residents, many of whom have Russian passports. “Abkhazia’s economy is like a drug addict on Russian help,” the report quoted an opposition figure in the region as saying. “We want real help to support our economic development, not ‘facade’ assistance.
These figures may seem like drops in the bucket for a Russian government that just poured $51 billion into the Olympics and plans to spend $440 billion in 2014, but the geopolitical philanthropy Moscow offers to these breakaway regions is a serious drain on Russia’s struggling, oil-and-gas-dependent economy.
If Crimea becomes another territory under de facto Russian control, Moscow would likely be forced to pick up the tab yet again. And keep in mind: The peninsula has 2 million inhabitants, which makes it 40 times the size of South Ossetia, eight times the size of Abkhazia, and four times the size of Transnistria. That adds up to a lot of pension payment for Crimea’s residents, 20 percent of whom are over the age of 60.
Faced with these dim economic prospects, Crimea could turn to illicit activities to generate state income. Breakaway regions have a reputation for cultivating smuggling and black markets—whether because they have few revenue streams, because local authorities are busy enriching themselves, or because they are not integrated into the international legal system. In a 2011 investigation of smuggling in Transnistria, for instance, the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations reported that between 2005 and 2011, authorities along the Moldovan-Ukrainian border carried out 10 interdictions of radioactive materials and interrupted 587 illicit weapons shipments.
On top of it all, according to Hill, the seizure of Crimea may ultimately cost Russia more influence in Ukraine than it gains.
“Having worked with Russian officials, I can tell you they don’t understand social movements,” he told me. “They perceive everything as orchestrated from the top. They don’t understand that they’re risking long-term hostility from across Ukraine.”
This article conveniently ignores the fact that Crimea is infinitely less corrupt and infinitely more profitable than Abkhazia and South Ossetia. haha If what the article suggests were remotely true, the Russians wouldn't bother. A & SO are welfare missions more than anything else. Crimea would be a huge profit and I don't see in what world it would instantly transform to A & SO status.
More profit? Why? The article mentions Crimea's billion dollar deficit, the fact that 20% of the citizen are retirees, and that 60% of its trade goes with non-Russian economy, which presumably will get embargoed the way the other 3 non states in the article are... as for less corrupt? where does that come from?
Georgia's breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which won de facto independence with the aid of Russian troops after a brief 2008 war, are black holes for Russian tax dollars. In April, the International Crisis Group (ICG) reported that Moscow had earmarked $350 million for infrastructure projects in Abkhazia between 2010 and 2012, with that number expected to triple to $1 billion between 2013 and 2015, but that only half of the $350 million had been spent because of mismanagement and corruption.
The group noted that Abkhazia—which is located just miles from Sochi, the site of this year’s Winter Olympics—effectively depended on Moscow for a staggering 70 percent of its budget and also received roughly $70 million in pension payments for Abkhaz residents, many of whom have Russian passports. “Abkhazia’s economy is like a drug addict on Russian help,” the report quoted an opposition figure in the region as saying. “We want real help to support our economic development, not ‘facade’ assistance.
These figures may seem like drops in the bucket for a Russian government that just poured $51 billion into the Olympics and plans to spend $440 billion in 2014, but the geopolitical philanthropy Moscow offers to these breakaway regions is a serious drain on Russia’s struggling, oil-and-gas-dependent economy.
If Crimea becomes another territory under de facto Russian control, Moscow would likely be forced to pick up the tab yet again. And keep in mind: The peninsula has 2 million inhabitants, which makes it 40 times the size of South Ossetia, eight times the size of Abkhazia, and four times the size of Transnistria. That adds up to a lot of pension payment for Crimea’s residents, 20 percent of whom are over the age of 60.
Faced with these dim economic prospects, Crimea could turn to illicit activities to generate state income. Breakaway regions have a reputation for cultivating smuggling and black markets—whether because they have few revenue streams, because local authorities are busy enriching themselves, or because they are not integrated into the international legal system. In a 2011 investigation of smuggling in Transnistria, for instance, the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations reported that between 2005 and 2011, authorities along the Moldovan-Ukrainian border carried out 10 interdictions of radioactive materials and interrupted 587 illicit weapons shipments.
On top of it all, according to Hill, the seizure of Crimea may ultimately cost Russia more influence in Ukraine than it gains.
“Having worked with Russian officials, I can tell you they don’t understand social movements,” he told me. “They perceive everything as orchestrated from the top. They don’t understand that they’re risking long-term hostility from across Ukraine.”
This article conveniently ignores the fact that Crimea is infinitely less corrupt and infinitely more profitable than Abkhazia and South Ossetia. haha If what the article suggests were remotely true, the Russians wouldn't bother. A & SO are welfare missions more than anything else. Crimea would be a huge profit and I don't see in what world it would instantly transform to A & SO status.
More profit? Why? The article mentions Crimea's billion dollar deficit, the fact that 20% of the citizen are retirees, and that 60% of its trade goes with non-Russian economy, which presumably will get embargoed the way the other 3 non states in the article are... as for less corrupt? where does that come from?
Russia tends to bring the corruption with them, so its not like thats going to last.
Georgia's breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which won de facto independence with the aid of Russian troops after a brief 2008 war, are black holes for Russian tax dollars. In April, the International Crisis Group (ICG) reported that Moscow had earmarked $350 million for infrastructure projects in Abkhazia between 2010 and 2012, with that number expected to triple to $1 billion between 2013 and 2015, but that only half of the $350 million had been spent because of mismanagement and corruption.
The group noted that Abkhazia—which is located just miles from Sochi, the site of this year’s Winter Olympics—effectively depended on Moscow for a staggering 70 percent of its budget and also received roughly $70 million in pension payments for Abkhaz residents, many of whom have Russian passports. “Abkhazia’s economy is like a drug addict on Russian help,” the report quoted an opposition figure in the region as saying. “We want real help to support our economic development, not ‘facade’ assistance.
These figures may seem like drops in the bucket for a Russian government that just poured $51 billion into the Olympics and plans to spend $440 billion in 2014, but the geopolitical philanthropy Moscow offers to these breakaway regions is a serious drain on Russia’s struggling, oil-and-gas-dependent economy.
If Crimea becomes another territory under de facto Russian control, Moscow would likely be forced to pick up the tab yet again. And keep in mind: The peninsula has 2 million inhabitants, which makes it 40 times the size of South Ossetia, eight times the size of Abkhazia, and four times the size of Transnistria. That adds up to a lot of pension payment for Crimea’s residents, 20 percent of whom are over the age of 60.
Faced with these dim economic prospects, Crimea could turn to illicit activities to generate state income. Breakaway regions have a reputation for cultivating smuggling and black markets—whether because they have few revenue streams, because local authorities are busy enriching themselves, or because they are not integrated into the international legal system. In a 2011 investigation of smuggling in Transnistria, for instance, the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations reported that between 2005 and 2011, authorities along the Moldovan-Ukrainian border carried out 10 interdictions of radioactive materials and interrupted 587 illicit weapons shipments.
On top of it all, according to Hill, the seizure of Crimea may ultimately cost Russia more influence in Ukraine than it gains.
“Having worked with Russian officials, I can tell you they don’t understand social movements,” he told me. “They perceive everything as orchestrated from the top. They don’t understand that they’re risking long-term hostility from across Ukraine.”
This article conveniently ignores the fact that Crimea is infinitely less corrupt and infinitely more profitable than Abkhazia and South Ossetia. haha If what the article suggests were remotely true, the Russians wouldn't bother. A & SO are welfare missions more than anything else. Crimea would be a huge profit and I don't see in what world it would instantly transform to A & SO status.
More profit? Why? The article mentions Crimea's billion dollar deficit, the fact that 20% of the citizen are retirees, and that 60% of its trade goes with non-Russian economy, which presumably will get embargoed the way the other 3 non states in the article are... as for less corrupt? where does that come from?
Russia tends to bring the corruption with them, so its not like thats going to last.
Ukrainians do fine with corruption, I am sure its already incredibly corrupt now so I found that assertion strange.
On March 05 2014 07:53 Dangermousecatdog wrote: + Show Spoiler +
On March 05 2014 06:45 zeo wrote: Please quote where I said they were 'totaly 100% all nazi's'. Stop misrepresenting what I have said. In fact I do belive the Crimean referendum date is too soon, just like its too soon for general elections.
OK, lets allow your former posts to represent yourself:
On December 16 2013 15:40 PaleMan wrote: so we banned that commercials of how its cool to be gay in our country
You didn't just ban gay commercials, you banned any type of information that implies that "gay relationships are equal to heterosexual relationships". If that is not discrimination encouraged by the law than what is it? You also banned the right "to speak in defence of gay rights and distribute material related to gay rights".
When McCain landed in Kiev he rushed to meet Oleh Tyahnybog, a representative of one of the leading opposition political parties, Svoboda. An extreme nationalist party, Svoboda members are fond of wearing t-shirts with slogans such as “Beat the zhids!” using a derogatory term for Jews.
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia.
Dav1oN has it right and I've said it before in this thread, the whole landscape needs to change. That won't happen as long as these hard-core nationalists, football hooligans and nazi sympathizers keep brainwashing the people in the streets to destroy their own country. Its so easy to be an internet freedom fighter circlejerker these days on TL.
On February 19 2014 18:00 Liman wrote: Here is a map of 2012 parliamentary election. It shows that Ukraine is a divided country. Pink is anti Russian,blue is pro Russian. No election will resolve that. Broad political agreement is needed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukr_elections_2012_multimandate_okruhs.png
Potentially, our country might be divided on two, which automaticly puts western part even in more horrible financial position, cause most of heavy production and light production are situated on east :/ And it means no more dotations from west to east
Don't worry, the paradise of EU will more than make up for the country being landlocked and having no industry. The great and humble people that set fire to things on the street will come to power and no more evul dicktator. Just like Libya! Now they are eating sand instead of food and living the good life under sharia law.
edit: trust me davion, you don't want to live in the part of the country the neonazi's take over
On February 20 2014 21:31 Sent. wrote: I can't belive they're using live ammunition. I hope it won't turn into another Syria or Russian intervention.
Whats even more shocking to me is that they even shoot people trying to help the wounded. I can understand if the police shoots at poeple who are about to throws molotows at them ( of course they shouldnt use live ammunition but if they have nothing else its understandable that they try to save their lives aswell) but i dont know how you can shoot people trying to help..
Earlier in this thread there were photos of the police throwing molotov cocktails at protesters. It's horrible that they're shooting at medics, unarmed protesters, and those trying to help the wounded, but not really surprising to me anymore.
There is a reason they're trying to remove these horrible people from power. And a reason Putin is supporting the government.
Well the protesters arent very civil either, there are two sides of the coin. It is a bit more diverse than you might think.
That said literally nothing except insinuating bad things about the protesters.
Sigh, barely any people left on the street support Ukraine going into the EU, all of them are ether hard nationalists who long for the time when their grandparents sucked Hitlers cock during the war, even harder nazi's imported from Lviv to destroy things in Kiev, Che Guevara wannabees, hooligans and all around filth of Ukrainian society. These are not 'helpless people', helpless people do not kill 15 police officers in full riot gear with bullet proof vests and shields. Paramilitary organizations arming themselves with guns and bombs are within the 'protesters' and that is why the police have live rounds, that is why people are dieing. They are holding the country hostage. Normal people in Ukraine want them out and its the duty of the government to protect the people from these bandits whose only purpose in life is to vandalize and to destroy the property of the people of Ukraine. Is the government doing a good job? No. Is sending people to die and bringing ruin to your country even though elections are 12 months away? For fucks sake, get these animals off the street.
The people of Sevastopol are already saying they will exit Ukraine if the bandits on the street take power. No one in their right mind would want to live in the desolation Ukraine will become if the bandits take over
(note that in this case I think 1 of the pictures were from before EuroMaiden.)
On February 21 2014 00:20 farvacola wrote: Nice try, but posting a few indiscriminate photos alongside sourceless rhetoric does not do anything other than make you look like a Yanukovich shill. The moment you and the opposition realize that those who have taken to the streets are more than bandits and "animals", the situation can begin to improve. Until then, keep on sucking the authority's cock, as you so eloquently put it.
On February 21 2014 00:22 Schmobutzen wrote: You, Sir are full of shit.
You are not willing to look behind your curtains. I pitty you! Yes there are fascists and extremists under the protesting people. But not only!!! Look at the videos and you will see all kind of people.
Just refrain from posting here further!
If you got into a protest knowing full well there are armed nazi's, hooligans and paramilitaries around you don't be surprised when you get shot, I am sorry you got shot, maybe you are a good person but you were brainwashed into thinking going to a protest with armed people around you ready to shoot at police was a good idea
So? Only 239 out of 450 members of parliament were present to vote, mostly members of the opposition. 15 members of Yanukovych's party went over to the dark side ($$$), big deal. To enact constitutional reforms they need 300 votes, and anyway the president needs to ratify it. A lot of nothing was done at the parliament tonight.
Assuming it actually happends this stops the bloodshed. How can that be a bad thing. People have a right to protest without being shot at by live ammunition.
Amd why do the 15 who switched need to be bribed. Has it ever accured to you that even those on Yanukovychs side might not be happy with the police force killing the very people they are sworn to protect?
Getting the nazi's off the street and into prison stops the bloodshed. If the bandits on the street really do pull off a coup d'etat and take down a democraticly elected government recognized by the whole world as legitimate what happens then? Any country with an interest in Ukraine can claim that the Ukraine they signed agrements with stopped existing.
Russia already has the whole Black Sea fleet stationed in Sevastopol, they legaly already have a very large force of marines in the country by agreement. These nationalists/nazi's come to power, what then?
On February 23 2014 01:25 hunts wrote: I'm glad at least things are slowly going in the right direction. I was born in ukraine and lived in dnepropitrovsk until I was 8, when we moved to america, makes me very sad that it seems since then things have only been going downhill for ukraine. Unfortunately I also can't help with translating news as I forgot how to read/write russian a long time ago.
Things don't seem to be going in the right direction at all... The leaders of the strongest opposition parties in the country that actually started the protest in the first place have absolutely no control over the rioters. The blatantly stupid action of signing an agreement they can not enforce just goes to prove what we have known for weeks now, anti-civilization, far-right, borderline-fascist and fascist groups control maiden. The president honored his side of the agreement and withdrew the police from the streets which the fascists used to take control of the city and parliament. A parliament taken over by bandits is now illegalizing any form of resistance to banditry and releasing a convicted criminal who is not only (one of) the most corrupt politician in the country, but also tried to have her business rivals liquidated.
Chief Rabbi of Ukraine urged Jews to leave Kiev, joining the exodus of people fleeing western cities into the east of the country caused by food shortages and the horrific security situation. In the absence of any kind of rule of law the east of the country has taken the sovereignty of the nation into its own hands. Forming armed anti-fascist citizen groups to protect the people of the regions from the black hole forming in the west.
I don't see how Ukraine is slowly moving in the right direction.
On February 23 2014 01:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yeah, concerning the emotional and historical associations the words "Hitler" and "Nazi", shouldn't be used as analogies here. Then again, people like Zeo and Yanukovych have been using those exact same words for their analogies, but none of us need to swoop to their level.
User was warned for this post
(This one is quite the gem. I didn't remember that it was zeo who posted it, no wonder he took such offence whenever I mention photoshopped hitler pictures.
On February 23 2014 08:34 zeo wrote: Berkut from Sevastopol receiving a hero's welcome upon returning home from Kiev:
Look at how the guys' in masks' eyes dart in shame. I'd be embarrassed by this too. The guys' speech is hilarious too. "We know you guys werent there to defend Yanukovich's stolen millions, but he betrayed you. Well Sevatopol wont betray you the way Yanukovich has" classic. Zoe you should really learn Russian, it would help you post videos that maybe help you propagandize for Russia a bit easier, some of these things they say, they dont sounds so good for your boy.
Who's boy? What boy?
Well since you are repeating Yanukovich's stance that this is a coup by fascist genociders obviously he is your boy. Its awkward though when propaganda from the most pro-Russian province in Ukraine agrees that he is a corrupt thief huh.
Fuck Yanukovych, what leader negotiates, or even worse lets his government get overrun by bandits? The people of eastern Ukraine have a lot more things to worry about than that stooge.
On February 23 2014 08:52 Derez wrote: What the hell does 'foreign supported' even mean in your eyes?
Any money the EU funnels into places like the ukraine are for building democratic institutions, unlike russia who'll just blatantly support anyone with anything ranging from weapons to bags of unmarked bills. You don't see the EU calling for violent revolution against the regime, while you do see putin and his cronies asking for a beatdown on protestors. You're comparing a largely democratic institutions against a one man govt. I know what side I'd rather be on.
I don't believe you wrote that with a straight face.
Hoo and you call others fascists? With a straight face?
Stalinist denomination communist by any chance?
Yanukovych is a weak leader who made bad desisions constantly just so he could cover his ass, and wave responsability. Now neo-nazi's patrol the streets of Kiev 'protecting' people. Of course he should be impeached.
On February 23 2014 16:06 DeepElemBlues wrote: These statues are symbols of Russia to the protesters they don't exactly like Russia.
These are symbols of the struggle of all Soviet peoples against fascism, that is a statue of an Ukrainian anti-fascist soldier that isn't welcome anymore.
There are at least 5 statues of Lenin in America, I don't see riot groups forming to take them down.
On February 23 2014 21:54 zeo wrote: The only people who I am calling Nazi's are these people, seen here honoring fallen SS members in Ukraine:
edit: these people have taken control of the government building for 2 days and already they are trying to ban the party of regions and the communist party. Is eveyone in those parties Yanukovych? No, and yes, a lot of them are probably corrupt, but that doesn't give anyone the right to ban political opponents or give themselves the authority to appoint and sack judges.
On February 26 2014 04:57 Cheerio wrote: I guess this thread is done. There is a number of unresolved issues but those should probably be discussed in some kind of "Ukraine post Yanukovich" thread.
Are you serious? There is a junta in place in Kiev that barely controls the center of the city with some provinces to the west, let alone the rest of the country.
Obviously the people tearing down statues of Mikhail Kutuzov (who died 200 years ago), as well as the people drawing nazi symbols on torn down statues of anti-fascist soldiers with barely any form of condemnation ether from the junta in Kiev or the people in western Ukraine, believe Maidan is still going on.
On February 27 2014 18:22 mahrgell wrote: Sounds like what usually happens with North Korea doing some weird shit and spontaneous US-South Korean trainings. So boring stuff, but everyone likes to show off a bit and pretends to be supermegaawesome.
Btw: as it wasnt mentioned: Berkut was dissolved yesterday by the new minister of internal affairs. Well.. they ould have been useful now!
If there is a junta in power bringing authoritarian laws, violating minority rights and freedom of speech you don't sit around and dwindle your thumbs. Whatever is happening now in Crimea and the push for federalization in the rest of the eastern half of the country is solely the fault of the junta in Kiev right now.
If the junta starts murdering people that don't share their ultra-nationalist views it is the responsibility of Russia and the EU to intervene and give the power back to the people. The 150k soldiers on the border keep the junta in check.
On February 27 2014 21:21 Ghanburighan wrote: It's like an attack by zombies, but instead of the stench of death, you recognize them by their poor spelling and insubstantial arguments.
Disregarding someone's personal opinion because their English is not up to your standard, I think you need to calm down.
On February 27 2014 22:04 Saryph wrote: Sign of true heroes: Using sniper rifles to shoot the heads/necks of unarmed young women in white, with red crosses painted on their bodies, who are doing nothing other than trying to help the wounded.
This is a biased view of events. An unbiased view would be that the fascist/neo-nazi wings of the 'revolution' got their hands on firearms, some of which can be used for long distance sharpshooting. The government, seeing people getting shot at with snipers sent their own sniper teams to take out the opposing snipers. During this time, unfortunately people got shot. In any normal functioning society it takes six months (at least) to build up a case and know for certain which side shot and killed who. I'm sure you sitting in your chair half the world away believe laughable evidence such as 'but the shot came from the government side, my friends uncle who works at Nintendo told me so', but the civilized world doesn't work that way.
On February 28 2014 00:32 farvacola wrote: ^No they didn't. And I'm glad to see that Zeo is still utterly unable to back up what he says with anything more than random youtube videos and WW2 atrocity nostalgia.
Suppose it's a step up from random photoshops to prove a point. Always see the bright side.
Hello friend. I see you have just registered here yesterday and yet you seem to already have a vast knowledge about my posting history. If you are not a PBU trying to get around a permaban you are more than welcome to enter the pro-NATO circlejerk, because indeed, everyone has a right to their own opinions. I hope you have a pleasant time at Team Liquid
Hi there. You might want to check "m4inbrain", my proper account, which i can't access right now but is in the process to be resolved (no, not perma or any other form of banned, just an email-adress-problem). I'm following the thread pretty thoroughly, so yes, i have a pretty good knowledge about what you're posting in here, don't worry too much. If i get something wrong, which i haven't so far, you can always correct me.
There's middleground between "NATO-circlejerk" and the "russian-idiocracy", you know. I don't approve of alot of things that happened in the past weeks, but at least, i form my opinion without west or east in mind, which you and alot of your circlejerk-friends (no, you're not an ounce different than the "pro-west side") are missing.
Indeed that account does exist. Carry on then.
I certainly do not approve of everything Russia or the NATO are doing in the world. If you read all of my posts in this thread you would know I was all for a referendum and early elections. I expressed my concern that there were violent agitators on the street who wanted nothing more than to have the police return fire. I saw groups that clearly didn't want a peaceful end to the crises, who were more than happy to run their country into the ground.
Then I started really looking into who these people were. What I found was that 90% of the people doing the fighting/killing/dieing on the street didn't want to get into the EU at all. That some 30-40% of the people pushing for Maidan were ultra-nationalists who want to build their national identity on hatred of other people, while at the same time glorifying Nazi collaborators. As well as outright fascists and neo-nazi's/anarcists, and run of the mill crazies who just want to destroy things. I'm sure many of the people who are being labeled as Putinists in this thread for some reason came to the same conclusion as I did:
"Whatever these people want, I want the o`posite"
Its quite simple really. I hate communism, communism brought great tragedy to my country and people and I really, really don't like people who support the return of communism in my country. Following that line of thought if communism is a hole in the ground, fascism jumped into that hole and brought a shovel with it. Nazi collaborators are the worst, when they make up 30% of a movement something is seriously wrong with that movement and it has been proven time and time again that giving even a little power to fascists is something that is very wrong, as seen with what is happening in the Ukraine right now. Yanukovych was a bad leader, no doubt about that. But the people leading the junta right now are animals.
The junta controlling Kiev, moments after coming to power automatically started restricting human rights, taking away rights and restricting freedom of speech. Not only this, they pushed for a purge of everything to do with the history of Ukraine they deem undesirable, a kind of book burning, to destroy the culture of the Ukrainians that fought Ukrainian fascism.
On February 28 2014 00:32 farvacola wrote: ^No they didn't. And I'm glad to see that Zeo is still utterly unable to back up what he says with anything more than random youtube videos and WW2 atrocity nostalgia.
Suppose it's a step up from random photoshops to prove a point. Always see the bright side.
Hello friend. I see you have just registered here yesterday and yet you seem to already have a vast knowledge about my posting history. If you are not a PBU trying to get around a permaban you are more than welcome to enter the pro-NATO circlejerk, because indeed, everyone has a right to their own opinions. I hope you have a pleasant time at Team Liquid
Hi there. You might want to check "m4inbrain", my proper account, which i can't access right now but is in the process to be resolved (no, not perma or any other form of banned, just an email-adress-problem). I'm following the thread pretty thoroughly, so yes, i have a pretty good knowledge about what you're posting in here, don't worry too much. If i get something wrong, which i haven't so far, you can always correct me.
There's middleground between "NATO-circlejerk" and the "russian-idiocracy", you know. I don't approve of alot of things that happened in the past weeks, but at least, i form my opinion without west or east in mind, which you and alot of your circlejerk-friends (no, you're not an ounce different than the "pro-west side") are missing.
Indeed that account does exist. Carry on then.
I certainly do not approve of everything Russia or the NATO are doing in the world. If you read all of my posts in this thread you would know I was all for a referendum and early elections. I expressed my concern that there were violent agitators on the street who wanted nothing more than to have the police return fire. I saw groups that clearly didn't want a peaceful end to the crises, who were more than happy to run their country into the ground.
Then I started really looking into who these people were. What I found was that 90% of the people doing the fighting/killing/dieing on the street didn't want to get into the EU at all. That some 30-40% of the people pushing for Maidan were ultra-nationalists who want to build their national identity on hatred of other people, while at the same time glorifying Nazi collaborators. As well as outright fascists and neo-nazi's/anarcists, and run of the mill crazies who just want to destroy things. I'm sure many of the people who are being labeled as Putinists in this thread for some reason came to the same conclusion as I did:
"Whatever these people want, I want the opposite"
Its quite simple really. I hate communism, communism brought great tragedy to my country and people and I really, really don't like people who support the return of communism in my country. Following that line of thought if communism is a hole in the ground, fascism jumped into that hole and brought a shovel with it. Nazi collaborators are the worst, when they make up 30% of a movement something is seriously wrong with that movement and it has been proven time and time again that giving even a little power to fascists is something that is very wrong, as seen with what is happening in the Ukraine right now. Yanukovych was a bad leader, no doubt about that. But the people leading the junta right now are animals.
The junta controlling Kiev, moments after coming to power automatically started restricting human rights, taking away rights and restricting freedom of speech. Not only this, they pushed for a purge of everything to do with the history of Ukraine they deem undesirable, a kind of book burning, to destroy the culture of the Ukrainians that fought Ukrainian fascism.
And where, pray tell, did you look?
(Realize that again referencing youtube videos will only further validate the notion that you are arguing on behalf of a bullshit agenda.)
Normal people look at all the media sources and bring an educated opinion. Only watching CNN/BBC/FOX means that you have a clearly warped view of reality. Watching only RT or Al Jazeera is the same, but here is where the magic happens. You watch NATO and non-NATO media together, if they show a thing happening (like the rise of fascism and extremism in the Ukraine) in both circles of media then it has a much higher probability of being true.
And then of course you form your own opinion, I'm sure you'll get it down someday.
If anything the most reasonable approach (assuming actual violence against those groups) would be for Russia to step in and allow the people living there a democratic vote to make them choose what they'd like to do.
And would Russia allow for the same democratic processes in their own state? No they wouldn't. Because oil and gas-rich territories would have split away a long time ago and lived like kings now, while Moscow region would have been the New Detroit.
No country would allow these 'democratic' processes that have been going on in Ukraine.
On February 28 2014 02:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So how can the supporters of the ousted president expect support if he fled to russia, and now gunmen have raised a russian flag over a government building?
The same way the rioters received support when armed thugs attacked city halls all over western Ukraine. Don't know why it was legal to take over a city hall and raise nazi collaborator flags then, but not now.
On March 01 2014 23:51 zeo wrote: Local government buildings taken by anti-junta protesters
I don't understand how can you post images with Russian flags on Ukrainian teritory and call all this crap anit-junta movement. Why don't you put some swastikas above Kiev to make it look even better?
The people of Ukraine want Russia to protect them. Carrying around Russian flags is no different than carrying EU/US flags at Maidan
Does your fixation on the belief that the Russians are always the good guys (atleast that's what I've been reading out of your posts) come from a general dislike of western countries, or from liking Russia in particular? Don't take it the wrong way, it's a genuine question, since you sided with Russia on every point of discussion here for soon to be a hundred pages, starting with this post (you made one or two before this one, but those were mostly about criticizing the american foreign policy in similar cases if I remember correctly):
On January 27 2014 07:07 zeo wrote:
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia.
Dav1oN has it right and I've said it before in this thread, the whole landscape needs to change. That won't happen as long as these hard-core nationalists, football hooligans and nazi sympathizers keep brainwashing the people in the streets to destroy their own country. Its so easy to be an internet freedom fighter circlejerker these days on TL.
Whatever a fascist wants, I want the opposite. When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple.
On March 01 2014 23:51 zeo wrote: Local government buildings taken by anti-junta protesters
I don't understand how can you post images with Russian flags on Ukrainian teritory and call all this crap anit-junta movement. Why don't you put some swastikas above Kiev to make it look even better?
The people of Ukraine want Russia to protect them. Carrying around Russian flags is no different than carrying EU/US flags at Maidan
Does your fixation on the belief that the Russians are always the good guys (atleast that's what I've been reading out of your posts) come from a general dislike of western countries, or from liking Russia in particular? Don't take it the wrong way, it's a genuine question, since you sided with Russia on every point of discussion here for soon to be a hundred pages, starting with this post (you made one or two before this one, but those were mostly about criticizing the american foreign policy in similar cases if I remember correctly):
On January 27 2014 07:07 zeo wrote:
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia.
Dav1oN has it right and I've said it before in this thread, the whole landscape needs to change. That won't happen as long as these hard-core nationalists, football hooligans and nazi sympathizers keep brainwashing the people in the streets to destroy their own country. Its so easy to be an internet freedom fighter circlejerker these days on TL.
Whatever a fascist wants, I want the opposite. When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple.
That's silly, you were anti-maidan before there was any talks of fascists. At least be honest to yourself.
Not true. I was against violent protests from the very start. I became anti-maidan after the radicalization of the protests (after McCain). Please do not spread misinformation.
On March 01 2014 23:51 zeo wrote: Local government buildings taken by anti-junta protesters
I don't understand how can you post images with Russian flags on Ukrainian teritory and call all this crap anit-junta movement. Why don't you put some swastikas above Kiev to make it look even better?
The people of Ukraine want Russia to protect them. Carrying around Russian flags is no different than carrying EU/US flags at Maidan
Does your fixation on the belief that the Russians are always the good guys (atleast that's what I've been reading out of your posts) come from a general dislike of western countries, or from liking Russia in particular? Don't take it the wrong way, it's a genuine question, since you sided with Russia on every point of discussion here for soon to be a hundred pages, starting with this post (you made one or two before this one, but those were mostly about criticizing the american foreign policy in similar cases if I remember correctly):
On January 27 2014 07:07 zeo wrote:
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia.
Dav1oN has it right and I've said it before in this thread, the whole landscape needs to change. That won't happen as long as these hard-core nationalists, football hooligans and nazi sympathizers keep brainwashing the people in the streets to destroy their own country. Its so easy to be an internet freedom fighter circlejerker these days on TL.
Whatever a fascist wants, I want the opposite. When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple.
But they were always just a small group and even now have nearly no political power.
In a sense they were a smaller group but at the end of the day they were the one doing 90% of the fighting/killing/dieing and are now at the top of the junta as a result. Maybe Right Sector don't have anyone in parliament but they are the ones with guns standing outside the parliament building making sure the revolution goes as they planned it. While the wannabe Nazi collaborators have powerful positions in the junta government now.
They are a cancer and Russia sending troops into Crimea is what happens when you come to power on the backs of fascists, the people of Ukraine wont stand for it.
On March 02 2014 01:54 zlefin wrote: Russia sure likes posturing needlessly and causing trouble. They could have just called for a referendum in Crimea, and probably won (especially with their covert efforts).
That's precisely what Crimea has voted to do. They voted to have a democratic referendum. But the Kiev-Junta government have refused to honour the outcome. They tried to take part in the democratic process.
The democratic process isn't democratic when an outside nation moves troops in with the intent of backing one side. Nice try though.
The democratic process isn't democratic when an outside nation funds and supports ultra-nationalists taking down a democratically elected government.
On March 02 2014 21:39 mdb wrote: I'm scared. 30 thousand russians are living in Bulgaria. What if they feel threatened? We are so close - on the other side Black sea.
Just don't euromaiden and bring fascists to power and you'll be fine
If tl:dr then, here's a good qoute of Zeo;"barely any people left on the street support Ukraine going into the EU, all of them are ether hard nationalists who long for the time when their grandparents sucked Hitlers cock"
Zeo has been constantly portraying the majority of protestors and now the controllers of ukraine as either nazis, or ultra nationalists or thugs or whatever.
Bringing infomration that such group exists is no problem. Western media portrays that they exist, but the significan't difference is that they aren't trying to paint a picture that those minority groups are in control of euromaiden and are now in control of the govenment.
Again, everything I said about them was correct, they did control maidan and they have considerable power in whatever thing is controlling Ukraine now. Any rational person can see that after the agreement was made between the mainstream opposition politicians and Yanukovych the crowd didn't listen to them, it listened to the Right Sector leader who took the microphone away from Klitchko and sent him into the corner. If you had actually read any of my posts, nowhere is everyone a nazi, just that people are being lead and tricked into doing something by fascists/nazi's/nationalists ect.
Its not quite flattering at all that most of your posts are about me but I guess people can't chose their stalkers.
EPT![[image loading]](http://cs425719.vk.me/v425719632/9977/sfQyEiJdG6s.jpg)
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