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On February 15 2014 08:32 Teoita wrote:edit: Show nested quote +Having radically different maps for just the sake of it is a bad idea. For example, I don't think you can ever get out of the basic layout of narrow entrance to the main and choke-able natural in SC2 or bw It's important to point that out imo.
No, you are right. I made the same point in another thread a while ago after actually looking at recent BW maps.
Without a stable basic layout which works for all 3 races, a map is not playable in any meaningful way.
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On February 15 2014 08:32 Teoita wrote:This really isn't the point, although, i'm not going to lie, i was just going to bash the shit out of Daedalus before Nony talked some sense into me. I'm actually truly interested in the possiblity of crazy ass maps in Proleague format, just to test them and see how they play out. This is really not an us vs Blizzard type thing. Their job is to make the game and the maps, ours is to produce quality content about it.
The whole idea behind these last posts is, actually, that as a team in TL Strat we wanted to diversify our content from exclusively guides and build analysis, to produce something that's faster to write and can interest spectators that don't play the game or don't want to study new builds. edit: Show nested quote +Having radically different maps for just the sake of it is a bad idea. For example, I don't think you can ever get out of the basic layout of narrow entrance to the main and choke-able natural in SC2 or bw It's important to point that out imo.
There is no reason for this to be particularly true, especially with the new extension mods. Defining either Blizz's or 'the communities' role in this way is self-limiting.
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Italy12246 Posts
By "we" i meant the TL Strategy team (and really the sc2 coverage team in general); we damn sure aren't in a position to be putting out patches, let alone mods or entire games, not the entire community (because obviously, that would mean the map making community has no right to exist which is dumb right?).
Sorry for the poor wording.
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On February 15 2014 09:03 Teoita wrote: By "we" i meant the TL Strategy team (and really the sc2 coverage team in general); we damn sure aren't in a position to be putting out patches, let alone mods or entire games, not the entire community (because obviously, that would mean the map making community has no right to exist which is dumb right?).
Sorry for the poor wording.
Makes sense.
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On February 15 2014 08:59 B-rye88 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 08:32 Teoita wrote:This really isn't the point, although, i'm not going to lie, i was just going to bash the shit out of Daedalus before Nony talked some sense into me. I'm actually truly interested in the possiblity of crazy ass maps in Proleague format, just to test them and see how they play out. This is really not an us vs Blizzard type thing. Their job is to make the game and the maps, ours is to produce quality content about it.
The whole idea behind these last posts is, actually, that as a team in TL Strat we wanted to diversify our content from exclusively guides and build analysis, to produce something that's faster to write and can interest spectators that don't play the game or don't want to study new builds. edit: Having radically different maps for just the sake of it is a bad idea. For example, I don't think you can ever get out of the basic layout of narrow entrance to the main and choke-able natural in SC2 or bw It's important to point that out imo. There is no reason for this to be particularly true, especially with the new extension mods. Defining either Blizz's or 'the communities' role in this way is self-limiting. Agreed. It's also a very narrow interpretation of what I was saying. I'm not talking about radically different, but more than simply aesthetically different. Currently the only things you can really safely play with in map design are beyond the third base, which is more than enough to turtle to max off. Incidentally from my reading you pretty much do bash the shit out of it, but in a well reasoned fashion. Rightly so in this case, its very hard to make solid counterpoints to the map doesn't work.
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This is great guys, would love to see more of this in the future. And of course thanks to NoNy who is always willing to discuss whatever is brought to his attention, and almost always surprises everyone with the way he looks at things! <3 NoNy
One of the major points people were trying to make about this map is, that since it is so different and trying to drastically change the standard play in a matchup like PvZ, that designated time to test, and study how the results of the play were going was absolutely necessary before throwing it into a map pool of a tournament like Code A, especially where there were no vetoes available. 1 week of ladder time is nowhere near enough time for people to figure out a map like this. And it's really a shame due to the high stakes of the tournament and the players careers riding on it.
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On February 15 2014 06:48 Sjokola wrote: Much love for Nony! Time to come back to TL?
i don't know that he ever truly left
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Lately the staff has posted a lot of awesomeness, between the pro impressions regarding the patch and this analysis on a map. I think that by far this is the most correct approach to the current sc2 problems, critical analysis provided by data but without the usual obvious bias that somehow invalidates even valid points.
If there's a way to reach Blizzard it's this one. Great job
I suggest for you in the future to let the mapmakers stormbrain about maps and such and then post an article: it would be a good way to highlight what's probably the most ignored problem of the game. The mapmaking threads don't get much recognition, sadly...
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United States97274 Posts
Is there any intent to analyze the map or any other map for a different matchup? I like that you did this for Daedalus but it's not like ZvP was the only problem matchup on this map. According to TLPD zerg had a 75% win rate (6-2 small sample size but still ~70% win rate for zerg through all tournaments although it includes some foreigner vs korean matches) vs Terran on this map too in the GSL. Would you just attribute it to the same circumstances?
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Don't worry guys, all you have to do is get on Blizzard's ass about putting our maps on ladder - the good maps. They don't all have to be mine, either :p
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Just becausein GSL terran only won 1/6 (link)+ Show Spoiler +(http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=Z&vsrace=T&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=ALL&mapid=38785) and 0/4 (link)+ Show Spoiler +(http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=P&vsrace=T&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=ALL&mapid=38785) doesn't mean the map is bad.
It could be just that terran is bad overall.. did you think of that?
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United States97274 Posts
Maybe the terran are bad in your opinion. I never said the map was the problem. I just asked if they were going to analyze it in another matchup besides just PvZ especially because numbers indicate that this may not be the only problem matchup on the map. I don't think my reasoning was unfounded.
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On February 15 2014 11:05 tokinho wrote:Just becausein GSL terran only won 1/6 (link) + Show Spoiler +(http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=Z&vsrace=T&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=ALL&mapid=38785) and 0/4 (link) + Show Spoiler +(http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=P&vsrace=T&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=ALL&mapid=38785) doesn't mean the map is bad. It could be just that terran is bad overall.. did you think of that? Exact my theory. It's not that the map is bad, it's just only current protoss players are really good
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Great analysis and insight into the must-haves of a balanced map. Daedalus 1.0 really was a terribly imbalanced map; glad it got the fix it needed in PvZ.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 15 2014 10:19 Shellshock wrote: Is there any intent to analyze the map or any other map for a different matchup? I like that you did this for Daedalus but it's not like ZvP was the only problem matchup on this map. According to TLPD zerg had a 75% win rate (6-2 small sample size but still ~70% win rate for zerg through all tournaments although it includes some foreigner vs korean matches) vs Terran on this map too in the GSL. Would you just attribute it to the same circumstances?
I can just do a quick one right now.
There are a total of 7 reasons why ZvT is in favor of Zerg on this map:
1) Large area in the three base origin. Specifically the distance from the main to the natural, the natural to the wall, the wall to the third in terms of walking distance is longer than Steppes of War. This makes it hard to cover all 3 bases (In comparison to its contemporary maps like say Frost 1 tank can cover main and natural or one force can cover all 3).
2) A wide open space with semi large open air gaps leads to 3 things: 2a) Overlord coverage that cannot be punished along the 4 main avenues of attack. 2b) Easy area to spread creep. Even now when you can spread creep onto ramps, it is still easier for Zerg players to spread it in areas that are large flat surfaces. 2c) Lack of Corridors. Generally speaking, Terran wants to fight Zerg in an area filled with valleys, ramps with a medium sized room so they cannot be completely surrounded but still have room to micro (Like say Heavy Rain). On this map, Its too large for Terran to effectively engage unless it's on the extremes right or let sides of the map.
3) Watchtowers. While not as bad as say TDA, the watchertowers are almost always controlled by Zergs in ZvT. In this case the two side watchtowers help the zerg in zoning for drop ships, an especially important tactic on a map with a head to push central area like ths.
4) Base/map layout -> Look at the map and ask where you can safetly 2 rax where your scv cannot be attacked and not be scouted. Then ask yourself where you would place the bunker. This map is a 2rax and 8/8/8 hell. The closest you can put it without being scouted is either on the far side of the natural (Where you're praying to get lucky) or the closest crack near the zerg which is still farther than Steppes of War. And then there are no good places to put a bunker, especially with the ramp that gives zerg a natural advantage. For 8/8/8, you want it as close to the zerg's main cliff as possible, which is the third, but its a double jump and in the natural scouting path of an overlord. To make matters worse, the first overlord is on a natural path to scouting any scvs that want to proxy in the main (Unlike say Heavy Rain or Yeonsu).
5) Wide open 3rd. While not as prevalent as it is in ZvP, Zergs can still put on massive pressure on Terran thirds that are wide open. Doing a bunker/ mine defense is no use as the area is too large and the tank defense is both clunky and inefficent as they can easily roll into your nat assuming you somehow defended the third against a Hyun style 3 base roach bane allin. This exasperates the 6th point.
6) 4th base positions - This is just inherently bad for Terran. Zerg will always have a natural 4th that expands away from the Terran and is protected by a watchtower and ramp. For Terran they can try to expand towards it, but the distance from the 4th to the third is massive if they expand towards the Zerg 4th, and leaves the 3rd open. If they expand away, it leaves the natural open.
7) Clear Cut Drop Paths. This is related to points 2a, 3 and 6. Basically this is like Antiga without the 4th gold in the center with the ramp. Basically there are two drop paths the Terran can use. Either top right or Bot left. This map isn't big enough for Terran to cut diagonally across like say Whirlwind or TDA and isn't small enough like Antiga for them to get in anyway.
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I would love a bit more analysis on the TvZ as well, I felt the games were really good, lots of ling baneling runbys etc
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zvz is absolutely fucking abysmal on this map because of the rush distance, and the fact you can't scout the main gas
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United States7483 Posts
On February 15 2014 13:03 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 10:19 Shellshock wrote: Is there any intent to analyze the map or any other map for a different matchup? I like that you did this for Daedalus but it's not like ZvP was the only problem matchup on this map. According to TLPD zerg had a 75% win rate (6-2 small sample size but still ~70% win rate for zerg through all tournaments although it includes some foreigner vs korean matches) vs Terran on this map too in the GSL. Would you just attribute it to the same circumstances? I can just do a quick one right now. There are a total of 7 reasons why ZvT is in favor of Zerg on this map: 1) Large area in the three base origin. Specifically the distance from the main to the natural, the natural to the wall, the wall to the third in terms of walking distance is longer than Steppes of War. This makes it hard to cover all 3 bases (In comparison to its contemporary maps like say Frost 1 tank can cover main and natural or one force can cover all 3). 2) A wide open space with semi large open air gaps leads to 3 things: 2a) Overlord coverage that cannot be punished along the 4 main avenues of attack. 2b) Easy area to spread creep. Even now when you can spread creep onto ramps, it is still easier for Zerg players to spread it in areas that are large flat surfaces. 2c) Lack of Corridors. Generally speaking, Terran wants to fight Zerg in an area filled with valleys, ramps with a medium sized room so they cannot be completely surrounded but still have room to micro (Like say Heavy Rain). On this map, Its too large for Terran to effectively engage unless it's on the extremes right or let sides of the map. 3) Watchtowers. While not as bad as say TDA, the watchertowers are almost always controlled by Zergs in ZvT. In this case the two side watchtowers help the zerg in zoning for drop ships, an especially important tactic on a map with a head to push central area like ths. 4) Base/map layout -> Look at the map and ask where you can safetly 2 rax where your scv cannot be attacked and not be scouted. Then ask yourself where you would place the bunker. This map is a 2rax and 8/8/8 hell. The closest you can put it without being scouted is either on the far side of the natural (Where you're praying to get lucky) or the closest crack near the zerg which is still farther than Steppes of War. And then there are no good places to put a bunker, especially with the ramp that gives zerg a natural advantage. For 8/8/8, you want it as close to the zerg's main cliff as possible, which is the third, but its a double jump and in the natural scouting path of an overlord. To make matters worse, the first overlord is on a natural path to scouting any scvs that want to proxy in the main (Unlike say Heavy Rain or Yeonsu). 5) Wide open 3rd. While not as prevalent as it is in ZvP, Zergs can still put on massive pressure on Terran thirds that are wide open. Doing a bunker/ mine defense is no use as the area is too large and the tank defense is both clunky and inefficent as they can easily roll into your nat assuming you somehow defended the third against a Hyun style 3 base roach bane allin. This exasperates the 6th point. 6) 4th base positions - This is just inherently bad for Terran. Zerg will always have a natural 4th that expands away from the Terran and is protected by a watchtower and ramp. For Terran they can try to expand towards it, but the distance from the 4th to the third is massive if they expand towards the Zerg 4th, and leaves the 3rd open. If they expand away, it leaves the natural open. 7) Clear Cut Drop Paths. This is related to points 2a, 3 and 6. Basically this is like Antiga without the 4th gold in the center with the ramp. Basically there are two drop paths the Terran can use. Either top right or Bot left. This map isn't big enough for Terran to cut diagonally across like say Whirlwind or TDA and isn't small enough like Antiga for them to get in anyway.
However, the short rush distance would suggest that terran will have extremely powerful 2 base pushes should they choose to commit to that kind of strategy.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 15 2014 13:34 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 13:03 stuchiu wrote:On February 15 2014 10:19 Shellshock wrote: Is there any intent to analyze the map or any other map for a different matchup? I like that you did this for Daedalus but it's not like ZvP was the only problem matchup on this map. According to TLPD zerg had a 75% win rate (6-2 small sample size but still ~70% win rate for zerg through all tournaments although it includes some foreigner vs korean matches) vs Terran on this map too in the GSL. Would you just attribute it to the same circumstances? I can just do a quick one right now. There are a total of 7 reasons why ZvT is in favor of Zerg on this map: 1) Large area in the three base origin. Specifically the distance from the main to the natural, the natural to the wall, the wall to the third in terms of walking distance is longer than Steppes of War. This makes it hard to cover all 3 bases (In comparison to its contemporary maps like say Frost 1 tank can cover main and natural or one force can cover all 3). 2) A wide open space with semi large open air gaps leads to 3 things: 2a) Overlord coverage that cannot be punished along the 4 main avenues of attack. 2b) Easy area to spread creep. Even now when you can spread creep onto ramps, it is still easier for Zerg players to spread it in areas that are large flat surfaces. 2c) Lack of Corridors. Generally speaking, Terran wants to fight Zerg in an area filled with valleys, ramps with a medium sized room so they cannot be completely surrounded but still have room to micro (Like say Heavy Rain). On this map, Its too large for Terran to effectively engage unless it's on the extremes right or let sides of the map. 3) Watchtowers. While not as bad as say TDA, the watchertowers are almost always controlled by Zergs in ZvT. In this case the two side watchtowers help the zerg in zoning for drop ships, an especially important tactic on a map with a head to push central area like ths. 4) Base/map layout -> Look at the map and ask where you can safetly 2 rax where your scv cannot be attacked and not be scouted. Then ask yourself where you would place the bunker. This map is a 2rax and 8/8/8 hell. The closest you can put it without being scouted is either on the far side of the natural (Where you're praying to get lucky) or the closest crack near the zerg which is still farther than Steppes of War. And then there are no good places to put a bunker, especially with the ramp that gives zerg a natural advantage. For 8/8/8, you want it as close to the zerg's main cliff as possible, which is the third, but its a double jump and in the natural scouting path of an overlord. To make matters worse, the first overlord is on a natural path to scouting any scvs that want to proxy in the main (Unlike say Heavy Rain or Yeonsu). 5) Wide open 3rd. While not as prevalent as it is in ZvP, Zergs can still put on massive pressure on Terran thirds that are wide open. Doing a bunker/ mine defense is no use as the area is too large and the tank defense is both clunky and inefficent as they can easily roll into your nat assuming you somehow defended the third against a Hyun style 3 base roach bane allin. This exasperates the 6th point. 6) 4th base positions - This is just inherently bad for Terran. Zerg will always have a natural 4th that expands away from the Terran and is protected by a watchtower and ramp. For Terran they can try to expand towards it, but the distance from the 4th to the third is massive if they expand towards the Zerg 4th, and leaves the 3rd open. If they expand away, it leaves the natural open. 7) Clear Cut Drop Paths. This is related to points 2a, 3 and 6. Basically this is like Antiga without the 4th gold in the center with the ramp. Basically there are two drop paths the Terran can use. Either top right or Bot left. This map isn't big enough for Terran to cut diagonally across like say Whirlwind or TDA and isn't small enough like Antiga for them to get in anyway. However, the short rush distance would suggest that terran will have extremely powerful 2 base pushes should they choose to commit to that kind of strategy.
There are no good 2 base pushes anymore after the queen change or Sting would be top tier.
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United States97274 Posts
On February 15 2014 13:03 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 10:19 Shellshock wrote: Is there any intent to analyze the map or any other map for a different matchup? I like that you did this for Daedalus but it's not like ZvP was the only problem matchup on this map. According to TLPD zerg had a 75% win rate (6-2 small sample size but still ~70% win rate for zerg through all tournaments although it includes some foreigner vs korean matches) vs Terran on this map too in the GSL. Would you just attribute it to the same circumstances? I can just do a quick one right now. There are a total of 7 reasons why ZvT is in favor of Zerg on this map: 1) Large area in the three base origin. Specifically the distance from the main to the natural, the natural to the wall, the wall to the third in terms of walking distance is longer than Steppes of War. This makes it hard to cover all 3 bases (In comparison to its contemporary maps like say Frost 1 tank can cover main and natural or one force can cover all 3). 2) A wide open space with semi large open air gaps leads to 3 things: 2a) Overlord coverage that cannot be punished along the 4 main avenues of attack. 2b) Easy area to spread creep. Even now when you can spread creep onto ramps, it is still easier for Zerg players to spread it in areas that are large flat surfaces. 2c) Lack of Corridors. Generally speaking, Terran wants to fight Zerg in an area filled with valleys, ramps with a medium sized room so they cannot be completely surrounded but still have room to micro (Like say Heavy Rain). On this map, Its too large for Terran to effectively engage unless it's on the extremes right or let sides of the map. 3) Watchtowers. While not as bad as say TDA, the watchertowers are almost always controlled by Zergs in ZvT. In this case the two side watchtowers help the zerg in zoning for drop ships, an especially important tactic on a map with a head to push central area like ths. 4) Base/map layout -> Look at the map and ask where you can safetly 2 rax where your scv cannot be attacked and not be scouted. Then ask yourself where you would place the bunker. This map is a 2rax and 8/8/8 hell. The closest you can put it without being scouted is either on the far side of the natural (Where you're praying to get lucky) or the closest crack near the zerg which is still farther than Steppes of War. And then there are no good places to put a bunker, especially with the ramp that gives zerg a natural advantage. For 8/8/8, you want it as close to the zerg's main cliff as possible, which is the third, but its a double jump and in the natural scouting path of an overlord. To make matters worse, the first overlord is on a natural path to scouting any scvs that want to proxy in the main (Unlike say Heavy Rain or Yeonsu). 5) Wide open 3rd. While not as prevalent as it is in ZvP, Zergs can still put on massive pressure on Terran thirds that are wide open. Doing a bunker/ mine defense is no use as the area is too large and the tank defense is both clunky and inefficent as they can easily roll into your nat assuming you somehow defended the third against a Hyun style 3 base roach bane allin. This exasperates the 6th point. 6) 4th base positions - This is just inherently bad for Terran. Zerg will always have a natural 4th that expands away from the Terran and is protected by a watchtower and ramp. For Terran they can try to expand towards it, but the distance from the 4th to the third is massive if they expand towards the Zerg 4th, and leaves the 3rd open. If they expand away, it leaves the natural open. 7) Clear Cut Drop Paths. This is related to points 2a, 3 and 6. Basically this is like Antiga without the 4th gold in the center with the ramp. Basically there are two drop paths the Terran can use. Either top right or Bot left. This map isn't big enough for Terran to cut diagonally across like say Whirlwind or TDA and isn't small enough like Antiga for them to get in anyway. Thank you
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