EPT
On February 15 2014 13:38 stuchiu wrote:
There are no good 2 base pushes anymore after the queen change or Sting would be top tier.
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On February 15 2014 13:34 Whitewing wrote:
However, the short rush distance would suggest that terran will have extremely powerful 2 base pushes should they choose to commit to that kind of strategy.
On February 15 2014 13:03 stuchiu wrote:
I can just do a quick one right now.
There are a total of 7 reasons why ZvT is in favor of Zerg on this map:
1) Large area in the three base origin. Specifically the distance from the main to the natural, the natural to the wall, the wall to the third in terms of walking distance is longer than Steppes of War. This makes it hard to cover all 3 bases (In comparison to its contemporary maps like say Frost 1 tank can cover main and natural or one force can cover all 3).
2) A wide open space with semi large open air gaps leads to 3 things:
2a) Overlord coverage that cannot be punished along the 4 main avenues of attack.
2b) Easy area to spread creep. Even now when you can spread creep onto ramps, it is still easier for Zerg players to spread it in areas that are large flat surfaces.
2c) Lack of Corridors. Generally speaking, Terran wants to fight Zerg in an area filled with valleys, ramps with a medium sized room so they cannot be completely surrounded but still have room to micro (Like say Heavy Rain). On this map, Its too large for Terran to effectively engage unless it's on the extremes right or let sides of the map.
3) Watchtowers. While not as bad as say TDA, the watchertowers are almost always controlled by Zergs in ZvT. In this case the two side watchtowers help the zerg in zoning for drop ships, an especially important tactic on a map with a head to push central area like ths.
4) Base/map layout -> Look at the map and ask where you can safetly 2 rax where your scv cannot be attacked and not be scouted. Then ask yourself where you would place the bunker. This map is a 2rax and 8/8/8 hell. The closest you can put it without being scouted is either on the far side of the natural (Where you're praying to get lucky) or the closest crack near the zerg which is still farther than Steppes of War. And then there are no good places to put a bunker, especially with the ramp that gives zerg a natural advantage. For 8/8/8, you want it as close to the zerg's main cliff as possible, which is the third, but its a double jump and in the natural scouting path of an overlord. To make matters worse, the first overlord is on a natural path to scouting any scvs that want to proxy in the main (Unlike say Heavy Rain or Yeonsu).
5) Wide open 3rd. While not as prevalent as it is in ZvP, Zergs can still put on massive pressure on Terran thirds that are wide open. Doing a bunker/ mine defense is no use as the area is too large and the tank defense is both clunky and inefficent as they can easily roll into your nat assuming you somehow defended the third against a Hyun style 3 base roach bane allin. This exasperates the 6th point.
6) 4th base positions - This is just inherently bad for Terran. Zerg will always have a natural 4th that expands away from the Terran and is protected by a watchtower and ramp. For Terran they can try to expand towards it, but the distance from the 4th to the third is massive if they expand towards the Zerg 4th, and leaves the 3rd open. If they expand away, it leaves the natural open.
7) Clear Cut Drop Paths. This is related to points 2a, 3 and 6. Basically this is like Antiga without the 4th gold in the center with the ramp. Basically there are two drop paths the Terran can use. Either top right or Bot left. This map isn't big enough for Terran to cut diagonally across like say Whirlwind or TDA and isn't small enough like Antiga for them to get in anyway.
On February 15 2014 10:19 Shellshock wrote:
Is there any intent to analyze the map or any other map for a different matchup? I like that you did this for Daedalus but it's not like ZvP was the only problem matchup on this map. According to TLPD zerg had a 75% win rate (6-2 small sample size but still ~70% win rate for zerg through all tournaments although it includes some foreigner vs korean matches) vs Terran on this map too in the GSL. Would you just attribute it to the same circumstances?
Is there any intent to analyze the map or any other map for a different matchup? I like that you did this for Daedalus but it's not like ZvP was the only problem matchup on this map. According to TLPD zerg had a 75% win rate (6-2 small sample size but still ~70% win rate for zerg through all tournaments although it includes some foreigner vs korean matches) vs Terran on this map too in the GSL. Would you just attribute it to the same circumstances?
I can just do a quick one right now.
There are a total of 7 reasons why ZvT is in favor of Zerg on this map:
1) Large area in the three base origin. Specifically the distance from the main to the natural, the natural to the wall, the wall to the third in terms of walking distance is longer than Steppes of War. This makes it hard to cover all 3 bases (In comparison to its contemporary maps like say Frost 1 tank can cover main and natural or one force can cover all 3).
2) A wide open space with semi large open air gaps leads to 3 things:
2a) Overlord coverage that cannot be punished along the 4 main avenues of attack.
2b) Easy area to spread creep. Even now when you can spread creep onto ramps, it is still easier for Zerg players to spread it in areas that are large flat surfaces.
2c) Lack of Corridors. Generally speaking, Terran wants to fight Zerg in an area filled with valleys, ramps with a medium sized room so they cannot be completely surrounded but still have room to micro (Like say Heavy Rain). On this map, Its too large for Terran to effectively engage unless it's on the extremes right or let sides of the map.
3) Watchtowers. While not as bad as say TDA, the watchertowers are almost always controlled by Zergs in ZvT. In this case the two side watchtowers help the zerg in zoning for drop ships, an especially important tactic on a map with a head to push central area like ths.
4) Base/map layout -> Look at the map and ask where you can safetly 2 rax where your scv cannot be attacked and not be scouted. Then ask yourself where you would place the bunker. This map is a 2rax and 8/8/8 hell. The closest you can put it without being scouted is either on the far side of the natural (Where you're praying to get lucky) or the closest crack near the zerg which is still farther than Steppes of War. And then there are no good places to put a bunker, especially with the ramp that gives zerg a natural advantage. For 8/8/8, you want it as close to the zerg's main cliff as possible, which is the third, but its a double jump and in the natural scouting path of an overlord. To make matters worse, the first overlord is on a natural path to scouting any scvs that want to proxy in the main (Unlike say Heavy Rain or Yeonsu).
5) Wide open 3rd. While not as prevalent as it is in ZvP, Zergs can still put on massive pressure on Terran thirds that are wide open. Doing a bunker/ mine defense is no use as the area is too large and the tank defense is both clunky and inefficent as they can easily roll into your nat assuming you somehow defended the third against a Hyun style 3 base roach bane allin. This exasperates the 6th point.
6) 4th base positions - This is just inherently bad for Terran. Zerg will always have a natural 4th that expands away from the Terran and is protected by a watchtower and ramp. For Terran they can try to expand towards it, but the distance from the 4th to the third is massive if they expand towards the Zerg 4th, and leaves the 3rd open. If they expand away, it leaves the natural open.
7) Clear Cut Drop Paths. This is related to points 2a, 3 and 6. Basically this is like Antiga without the 4th gold in the center with the ramp. Basically there are two drop paths the Terran can use. Either top right or Bot left. This map isn't big enough for Terran to cut diagonally across like say Whirlwind or TDA and isn't small enough like Antiga for them to get in anyway.
However, the short rush distance would suggest that terran will have extremely powerful 2 base pushes should they choose to commit to that kind of strategy.
There are no good 2 base pushes anymore after the queen change or Sting would be top tier.
Well, not on other maps, but there might be an exception on this one due to the rush distance being so short from natural to natural. Hellbat Marauder with medivacs, for example.
