• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 02:14
CET 08:14
KST 16:14
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !8Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15
StarCraft 2
General
When will we find out if there are more tournament ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump
Tourneys
Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1: Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress
Brood War
General
How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle screp: Command line app to parse SC rep files [BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO8 - Day 2 - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Mechabellum Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread PC Games Sales Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1268 users

Daedalus Point: A Lesson in Map Making - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
108 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-14 23:36:31
February 14 2014 23:35 GMT
#41
On February 15 2014 08:32 Teoita wrote:
edit:
Show nested quote +
Having radically different maps for just the sake of it is a bad idea. For example, I don't think you can ever get out of the basic layout of narrow entrance to the main and choke-able natural in SC2 or bw


It's important to point that out imo.



No, you are right. I made the same point in another thread a while ago after actually looking at recent BW maps.

Without a stable basic layout which works for all 3 races, a map is not playable in any meaningful way.
KT best KT ~ 2014
B-rye88
Profile Joined October 2013
Canada168 Posts
February 14 2014 23:59 GMT
#42
On February 15 2014 08:32 Teoita wrote:
This really isn't the point, although, i'm not going to lie, i was just going to bash the shit out of Daedalus before Nony talked some sense into me. I'm actually truly interested in the possiblity of crazy ass maps in Proleague format, just to test them and see how they play out.

This is really not an us vs Blizzard type thing. Their job is to make the game and the maps, ours is to produce quality content about it.

The whole idea behind these last posts is, actually, that as a team in TL Strat we wanted to diversify our content from exclusively guides and build analysis, to produce something that's faster to write and can interest spectators that don't play the game or don't want to study new builds.

edit:
Show nested quote +
Having radically different maps for just the sake of it is a bad idea. For example, I don't think you can ever get out of the basic layout of narrow entrance to the main and choke-able natural in SC2 or bw


It's important to point that out imo.


There is no reason for this to be particularly true, especially with the new extension mods. Defining either Blizz's or 'the communities' role in this way is self-limiting.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 00:03:29
February 15 2014 00:03 GMT
#43
By "we" i meant the TL Strategy team (and really the sc2 coverage team in general); we damn sure aren't in a position to be putting out patches, let alone mods or entire games, not the entire community (because obviously, that would mean the map making community has no right to exist which is dumb right?).

Sorry for the poor wording.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
B-rye88
Profile Joined October 2013
Canada168 Posts
February 15 2014 00:09 GMT
#44
On February 15 2014 09:03 Teoita wrote:
By "we" i meant the TL Strategy team (and really the sc2 coverage team in general); we damn sure aren't in a position to be putting out patches, let alone mods or entire games, not the entire community (because obviously, that would mean the map making community has no right to exist which is dumb right?).

Sorry for the poor wording.


Makes sense.
mostevil
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom611 Posts
February 15 2014 00:11 GMT
#45
On February 15 2014 08:59 B-rye88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2014 08:32 Teoita wrote:
This really isn't the point, although, i'm not going to lie, i was just going to bash the shit out of Daedalus before Nony talked some sense into me. I'm actually truly interested in the possiblity of crazy ass maps in Proleague format, just to test them and see how they play out.

This is really not an us vs Blizzard type thing. Their job is to make the game and the maps, ours is to produce quality content about it.

The whole idea behind these last posts is, actually, that as a team in TL Strat we wanted to diversify our content from exclusively guides and build analysis, to produce something that's faster to write and can interest spectators that don't play the game or don't want to study new builds.

edit:
Having radically different maps for just the sake of it is a bad idea. For example, I don't think you can ever get out of the basic layout of narrow entrance to the main and choke-able natural in SC2 or bw


It's important to point that out imo.


There is no reason for this to be particularly true, especially with the new extension mods. Defining either Blizz's or 'the communities' role in this way is self-limiting.

Agreed. It's also a very narrow interpretation of what I was saying. I'm not talking about radically different, but more than simply aesthetically different. Currently the only things you can really safely play with in map design are beyond the third base, which is more than enough to turtle to max off. Incidentally from my reading you pretty much do bash the shit out of it, but in a well reasoned fashion. Rightly so in this case, its very hard to make solid counterpoints to the map doesn't work.
我的媽和她的瘋狂的外甥都
ArTiFaKs
Profile Joined September 2013
United States1229 Posts
February 15 2014 00:30 GMT
#46
This is great guys, would love to see more of this in the future. And of course thanks to NoNy who is always willing to discuss whatever is brought to his attention, and almost always surprises everyone with the way he looks at things! <3 NoNy

One of the major points people were trying to make about this map is, that since it is so different and trying to drastically change the standard play in a matchup like PvZ, that designated time to test, and study how the results of the play were going was absolutely necessary before throwing it into a map pool of a tournament like Code A, especially where there were no vetoes available.
1 week of ladder time is nowhere near enough time for people to figure out a map like this. And it's really a shame due to the high stakes of the tournament and the players careers riding on it.
There are things known, and things unknown, and in-between are the doors.
igay
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia1178 Posts
February 15 2014 01:03 GMT
#47
On February 15 2014 06:48 Sjokola wrote:
Much love for Nony! Time to come back to TL?


i don't know that he ever truly left
MVP <3 MKP <3 DRG <3
MavivaM
Profile Joined November 2011
1535 Posts
February 15 2014 01:12 GMT
#48
Lately the staff has posted a lot of awesomeness, between the pro impressions regarding the patch and this analysis on a map.
I think that by far this is the most correct approach to the current sc2 problems, critical analysis provided by data but without the usual obvious bias that somehow invalidates even valid points.

If there's a way to reach Blizzard it's this one.
Great job

I suggest for you in the future to let the mapmakers stormbrain about maps and such and then post an article: it would be a good way to highlight what's probably the most ignored problem of the game.
The mapmaking threads don't get much recognition, sadly...
Your Opinion has been counted. Only 3 more Opinions needed for a reddit thread.
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 01:19:50
February 15 2014 01:19 GMT
#49
Is there any intent to analyze the map or any other map for a different matchup? I like that you did this for Daedalus but it's not like ZvP was the only problem matchup on this map. According to TLPD zerg had a 75% win rate (6-2 small sample size but still ~70% win rate for zerg through all tournaments although it includes some foreigner vs korean matches) vs Terran on this map too in the GSL. Would you just attribute it to the same circumstances?
Moderatorhttp://i.imgur.com/U4xwqmD.png
TL+ Member
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
February 15 2014 01:36 GMT
#50
Don't worry guys, all you have to do is get on Blizzard's ass about putting our maps on ladder - the good maps. They don't all have to be mine, either :p
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
tokinho
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States792 Posts
February 15 2014 02:05 GMT
#51
Just becausein GSL terran only won 1/6 (link)+ Show Spoiler +
(http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=Z&vsrace=T&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=ALL&mapid=38785)

and 0/4 (link)+ Show Spoiler +
(http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=P&vsrace=T&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=ALL&mapid=38785)
doesn't mean the map is bad.

It could be just that terran is bad overall.. did you think of that?
Smile
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 02:10:34
February 15 2014 02:10 GMT
#52
Maybe the terran are bad in your opinion. I never said the map was the problem. I just asked if they were going to analyze it in another matchup besides just PvZ especially because numbers indicate that this may not be the only problem matchup on the map. I don't think my reasoning was unfounded.
Moderatorhttp://i.imgur.com/U4xwqmD.png
TL+ Member
Stolker
Profile Joined March 2013
United States96 Posts
February 15 2014 02:10 GMT
#53
On February 15 2014 11:05 tokinho wrote:
Just becausein GSL terran only won 1/6 (link)+ Show Spoiler +
(http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=Z&vsrace=T&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=ALL&mapid=38785)

and 0/4 (link)+ Show Spoiler +
(http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=P&vsrace=T&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=ALL&mapid=38785)
doesn't mean the map is bad.

It could be just that terran is bad overall.. did you think of that?

Exact my theory. It's not that the map is bad, it's just only current protoss players are really good
dUTtrOACh
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada2339 Posts
February 15 2014 03:33 GMT
#54
Great analysis and insight into the must-haves of a balanced map. Daedalus 1.0 really was a terribly imbalanced map; glad it got the fix it needed in PvZ.
twitch.tv/duttroach
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 04:05:25
February 15 2014 04:03 GMT
#55
On February 15 2014 10:19 Shellshock wrote:
Is there any intent to analyze the map or any other map for a different matchup? I like that you did this for Daedalus but it's not like ZvP was the only problem matchup on this map. According to TLPD zerg had a 75% win rate (6-2 small sample size but still ~70% win rate for zerg through all tournaments although it includes some foreigner vs korean matches) vs Terran on this map too in the GSL. Would you just attribute it to the same circumstances?


I can just do a quick one right now.

There are a total of 7 reasons why ZvT is in favor of Zerg on this map:

1) Large area in the three base origin. Specifically the distance from the main to the natural, the natural to the wall, the wall to the third in terms of walking distance is longer than Steppes of War. This makes it hard to cover all 3 bases (In comparison to its contemporary maps like say Frost 1 tank can cover main and natural or one force can cover all 3).

2) A wide open space with semi large open air gaps leads to 3 things:
2a) Overlord coverage that cannot be punished along the 4 main avenues of attack.
2b) Easy area to spread creep. Even now when you can spread creep onto ramps, it is still easier for Zerg players to spread it in areas that are large flat surfaces.
2c) Lack of Corridors. Generally speaking, Terran wants to fight Zerg in an area filled with valleys, ramps with a medium sized room so they cannot be completely surrounded but still have room to micro (Like say Heavy Rain). On this map, Its too large for Terran to effectively engage unless it's on the extremes right or let sides of the map.

3) Watchtowers. While not as bad as say TDA, the watchertowers are almost always controlled by Zergs in ZvT. In this case the two side watchtowers help the zerg in zoning for drop ships, an especially important tactic on a map with a head to push central area like ths.

4) Base/map layout -> Look at the map and ask where you can safetly 2 rax where your scv cannot be attacked and not be scouted. Then ask yourself where you would place the bunker. This map is a 2rax and 8/8/8 hell. The closest you can put it without being scouted is either on the far side of the natural (Where you're praying to get lucky) or the closest crack near the zerg which is still farther than Steppes of War. And then there are no good places to put a bunker, especially with the ramp that gives zerg a natural advantage. For 8/8/8, you want it as close to the zerg's main cliff as possible, which is the third, but its a double jump and in the natural scouting path of an overlord. To make matters worse, the first overlord is on a natural path to scouting any scvs that want to proxy in the main (Unlike say Heavy Rain or Yeonsu).

5) Wide open 3rd. While not as prevalent as it is in ZvP, Zergs can still put on massive pressure on Terran thirds that are wide open. Doing a bunker/ mine defense is no use as the area is too large and the tank defense is both clunky and inefficent as they can easily roll into your nat assuming you somehow defended the third against a Hyun style 3 base roach bane allin. This exasperates the 6th point.

6) 4th base positions - This is just inherently bad for Terran. Zerg will always have a natural 4th that expands away from the Terran and is protected by a watchtower and ramp. For Terran they can try to expand towards it, but the distance from the 4th to the third is massive if they expand towards the Zerg 4th, and leaves the 3rd open. If they expand away, it leaves the natural open.

7) Clear Cut Drop Paths. This is related to points 2a, 3 and 6. Basically this is like Antiga without the 4th gold in the center with the ramp. Basically there are two drop paths the Terran can use. Either top right or Bot left. This map isn't big enough for Terran to cut diagonally across like say Whirlwind or TDA and isn't small enough like Antiga for them to get in anyway.
Moderator
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12621 Posts
February 15 2014 04:04 GMT
#56
I would love a bit more analysis on the TvZ as well, I felt the games were really good, lots of ling baneling runbys etc
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
MattD
Profile Joined March 2013
United Kingdom83 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 04:11:50
February 15 2014 04:11 GMT
#57
zvz is absolutely fucking abysmal on this map because of the rush distance, and the fact you can't scout the main gas
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
February 15 2014 04:34 GMT
#58
On February 15 2014 13:03 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2014 10:19 Shellshock wrote:
Is there any intent to analyze the map or any other map for a different matchup? I like that you did this for Daedalus but it's not like ZvP was the only problem matchup on this map. According to TLPD zerg had a 75% win rate (6-2 small sample size but still ~70% win rate for zerg through all tournaments although it includes some foreigner vs korean matches) vs Terran on this map too in the GSL. Would you just attribute it to the same circumstances?


I can just do a quick one right now.

There are a total of 7 reasons why ZvT is in favor of Zerg on this map:

1) Large area in the three base origin. Specifically the distance from the main to the natural, the natural to the wall, the wall to the third in terms of walking distance is longer than Steppes of War. This makes it hard to cover all 3 bases (In comparison to its contemporary maps like say Frost 1 tank can cover main and natural or one force can cover all 3).

2) A wide open space with semi large open air gaps leads to 3 things:
2a) Overlord coverage that cannot be punished along the 4 main avenues of attack.
2b) Easy area to spread creep. Even now when you can spread creep onto ramps, it is still easier for Zerg players to spread it in areas that are large flat surfaces.
2c) Lack of Corridors. Generally speaking, Terran wants to fight Zerg in an area filled with valleys, ramps with a medium sized room so they cannot be completely surrounded but still have room to micro (Like say Heavy Rain). On this map, Its too large for Terran to effectively engage unless it's on the extremes right or let sides of the map.

3) Watchtowers. While not as bad as say TDA, the watchertowers are almost always controlled by Zergs in ZvT. In this case the two side watchtowers help the zerg in zoning for drop ships, an especially important tactic on a map with a head to push central area like ths.

4) Base/map layout -> Look at the map and ask where you can safetly 2 rax where your scv cannot be attacked and not be scouted. Then ask yourself where you would place the bunker. This map is a 2rax and 8/8/8 hell. The closest you can put it without being scouted is either on the far side of the natural (Where you're praying to get lucky) or the closest crack near the zerg which is still farther than Steppes of War. And then there are no good places to put a bunker, especially with the ramp that gives zerg a natural advantage. For 8/8/8, you want it as close to the zerg's main cliff as possible, which is the third, but its a double jump and in the natural scouting path of an overlord. To make matters worse, the first overlord is on a natural path to scouting any scvs that want to proxy in the main (Unlike say Heavy Rain or Yeonsu).

5) Wide open 3rd. While not as prevalent as it is in ZvP, Zergs can still put on massive pressure on Terran thirds that are wide open. Doing a bunker/ mine defense is no use as the area is too large and the tank defense is both clunky and inefficent as they can easily roll into your nat assuming you somehow defended the third against a Hyun style 3 base roach bane allin. This exasperates the 6th point.

6) 4th base positions - This is just inherently bad for Terran. Zerg will always have a natural 4th that expands away from the Terran and is protected by a watchtower and ramp. For Terran they can try to expand towards it, but the distance from the 4th to the third is massive if they expand towards the Zerg 4th, and leaves the 3rd open. If they expand away, it leaves the natural open.

7) Clear Cut Drop Paths. This is related to points 2a, 3 and 6. Basically this is like Antiga without the 4th gold in the center with the ramp. Basically there are two drop paths the Terran can use. Either top right or Bot left. This map isn't big enough for Terran to cut diagonally across like say Whirlwind or TDA and isn't small enough like Antiga for them to get in anyway.


However, the short rush distance would suggest that terran will have extremely powerful 2 base pushes should they choose to commit to that kind of strategy.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 04:38:46
February 15 2014 04:38 GMT
#59
On February 15 2014 13:34 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2014 13:03 stuchiu wrote:
On February 15 2014 10:19 Shellshock wrote:
Is there any intent to analyze the map or any other map for a different matchup? I like that you did this for Daedalus but it's not like ZvP was the only problem matchup on this map. According to TLPD zerg had a 75% win rate (6-2 small sample size but still ~70% win rate for zerg through all tournaments although it includes some foreigner vs korean matches) vs Terran on this map too in the GSL. Would you just attribute it to the same circumstances?


I can just do a quick one right now.

There are a total of 7 reasons why ZvT is in favor of Zerg on this map:

1) Large area in the three base origin. Specifically the distance from the main to the natural, the natural to the wall, the wall to the third in terms of walking distance is longer than Steppes of War. This makes it hard to cover all 3 bases (In comparison to its contemporary maps like say Frost 1 tank can cover main and natural or one force can cover all 3).

2) A wide open space with semi large open air gaps leads to 3 things:
2a) Overlord coverage that cannot be punished along the 4 main avenues of attack.
2b) Easy area to spread creep. Even now when you can spread creep onto ramps, it is still easier for Zerg players to spread it in areas that are large flat surfaces.
2c) Lack of Corridors. Generally speaking, Terran wants to fight Zerg in an area filled with valleys, ramps with a medium sized room so they cannot be completely surrounded but still have room to micro (Like say Heavy Rain). On this map, Its too large for Terran to effectively engage unless it's on the extremes right or let sides of the map.

3) Watchtowers. While not as bad as say TDA, the watchertowers are almost always controlled by Zergs in ZvT. In this case the two side watchtowers help the zerg in zoning for drop ships, an especially important tactic on a map with a head to push central area like ths.

4) Base/map layout -> Look at the map and ask where you can safetly 2 rax where your scv cannot be attacked and not be scouted. Then ask yourself where you would place the bunker. This map is a 2rax and 8/8/8 hell. The closest you can put it without being scouted is either on the far side of the natural (Where you're praying to get lucky) or the closest crack near the zerg which is still farther than Steppes of War. And then there are no good places to put a bunker, especially with the ramp that gives zerg a natural advantage. For 8/8/8, you want it as close to the zerg's main cliff as possible, which is the third, but its a double jump and in the natural scouting path of an overlord. To make matters worse, the first overlord is on a natural path to scouting any scvs that want to proxy in the main (Unlike say Heavy Rain or Yeonsu).

5) Wide open 3rd. While not as prevalent as it is in ZvP, Zergs can still put on massive pressure on Terran thirds that are wide open. Doing a bunker/ mine defense is no use as the area is too large and the tank defense is both clunky and inefficent as they can easily roll into your nat assuming you somehow defended the third against a Hyun style 3 base roach bane allin. This exasperates the 6th point.

6) 4th base positions - This is just inherently bad for Terran. Zerg will always have a natural 4th that expands away from the Terran and is protected by a watchtower and ramp. For Terran they can try to expand towards it, but the distance from the 4th to the third is massive if they expand towards the Zerg 4th, and leaves the 3rd open. If they expand away, it leaves the natural open.

7) Clear Cut Drop Paths. This is related to points 2a, 3 and 6. Basically this is like Antiga without the 4th gold in the center with the ramp. Basically there are two drop paths the Terran can use. Either top right or Bot left. This map isn't big enough for Terran to cut diagonally across like say Whirlwind or TDA and isn't small enough like Antiga for them to get in anyway.


However, the short rush distance would suggest that terran will have extremely powerful 2 base pushes should they choose to commit to that kind of strategy.


There are no good 2 base pushes anymore after the queen change or Sting would be top tier.
Moderator
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
February 15 2014 04:39 GMT
#60
On February 15 2014 13:03 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2014 10:19 Shellshock wrote:
Is there any intent to analyze the map or any other map for a different matchup? I like that you did this for Daedalus but it's not like ZvP was the only problem matchup on this map. According to TLPD zerg had a 75% win rate (6-2 small sample size but still ~70% win rate for zerg through all tournaments although it includes some foreigner vs korean matches) vs Terran on this map too in the GSL. Would you just attribute it to the same circumstances?


I can just do a quick one right now.

There are a total of 7 reasons why ZvT is in favor of Zerg on this map:

1) Large area in the three base origin. Specifically the distance from the main to the natural, the natural to the wall, the wall to the third in terms of walking distance is longer than Steppes of War. This makes it hard to cover all 3 bases (In comparison to its contemporary maps like say Frost 1 tank can cover main and natural or one force can cover all 3).

2) A wide open space with semi large open air gaps leads to 3 things:
2a) Overlord coverage that cannot be punished along the 4 main avenues of attack.
2b) Easy area to spread creep. Even now when you can spread creep onto ramps, it is still easier for Zerg players to spread it in areas that are large flat surfaces.
2c) Lack of Corridors. Generally speaking, Terran wants to fight Zerg in an area filled with valleys, ramps with a medium sized room so they cannot be completely surrounded but still have room to micro (Like say Heavy Rain). On this map, Its too large for Terran to effectively engage unless it's on the extremes right or let sides of the map.

3) Watchtowers. While not as bad as say TDA, the watchertowers are almost always controlled by Zergs in ZvT. In this case the two side watchtowers help the zerg in zoning for drop ships, an especially important tactic on a map with a head to push central area like ths.

4) Base/map layout -> Look at the map and ask where you can safetly 2 rax where your scv cannot be attacked and not be scouted. Then ask yourself where you would place the bunker. This map is a 2rax and 8/8/8 hell. The closest you can put it without being scouted is either on the far side of the natural (Where you're praying to get lucky) or the closest crack near the zerg which is still farther than Steppes of War. And then there are no good places to put a bunker, especially with the ramp that gives zerg a natural advantage. For 8/8/8, you want it as close to the zerg's main cliff as possible, which is the third, but its a double jump and in the natural scouting path of an overlord. To make matters worse, the first overlord is on a natural path to scouting any scvs that want to proxy in the main (Unlike say Heavy Rain or Yeonsu).

5) Wide open 3rd. While not as prevalent as it is in ZvP, Zergs can still put on massive pressure on Terran thirds that are wide open. Doing a bunker/ mine defense is no use as the area is too large and the tank defense is both clunky and inefficent as they can easily roll into your nat assuming you somehow defended the third against a Hyun style 3 base roach bane allin. This exasperates the 6th point.

6) 4th base positions - This is just inherently bad for Terran. Zerg will always have a natural 4th that expands away from the Terran and is protected by a watchtower and ramp. For Terran they can try to expand towards it, but the distance from the 4th to the third is massive if they expand towards the Zerg 4th, and leaves the 3rd open. If they expand away, it leaves the natural open.

7) Clear Cut Drop Paths. This is related to points 2a, 3 and 6. Basically this is like Antiga without the 4th gold in the center with the ramp. Basically there are two drop paths the Terran can use. Either top right or Bot left. This map isn't big enough for Terran to cut diagonally across like say Whirlwind or TDA and isn't small enough like Antiga for them to get in anyway.

Thank you
Moderatorhttp://i.imgur.com/U4xwqmD.png
TL+ Member
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 46m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 226
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 9343
Leta 968
Light 120
Larva 86
Nal_rA 54
Mong 53
ZergMaN 40
Bale 27
League of Legends
JimRising 632
C9.Mang0250
Counter-Strike
summit1g9334
Other Games
WinterStarcraft520
Trikslyr26
ToD25
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1047
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 54
lovetv 2
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 43
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• HappyZerGling84
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
2h 46m
WardiTV 2025
3h 46m
Spirit vs Cure
Reynor vs MaxPax
SHIN vs TBD
Solar vs herO
Classic vs TBD
SC Evo League
5h 16m
Ladder Legends
11h 46m
BSL 21
12h 46m
Sziky vs Dewalt
eOnzErG vs Cross
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 2h
Ladder Legends
1d 9h
BSL 21
1d 12h
StRyKeR vs TBD
Bonyth vs TBD
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Offline Finals
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 1
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.