EPTOn November 16 2013 23:20 Spaghetticus wrote:
My preliminary case on VE
I think this post important, as I both want it to be used in shutting down VE's attempt at mayordom, but also potentially later to launch an investigation on him. I've spoilered it as it is large, but do not disregard it please.
I've done this entirely through a prolonged filter dive, so there is some information missing.
+ Show Spoiler +
Context: VE has been giving a town vibe to most, including until recently, myself. Skimming the thread he seems to post a lot, and not done anything particularly scummy. It is the accumulation of microswings that has me suspicious. He is currently winning the election, the threat on the table to have him as mayor, and yamato as pardoner. I do not want either of these things to happen.
I’m not trying to get him lynched, as I see him as not a threat if scum. He’s giving information too easily so far for him to not be caught. I just want him to not be mayor, and you should too.
VE has an eight page filter, which is appropriate since he’s running for mayor. The density of useful information is low, which is not at all appropriate.
Page 1
First half page is pregame chatter
Second half he launches his platform for candidacy. His platform essentially promises that he will lynch someone, but won’t commit to anything. Good politics, but does not give town anything to work with.
He then gives a town read and a thumbs up to yamato, but this is no big deal since yamato is pretty much confirmed town.
Page 2
He doesn't like SS's tone, which I agree with, but is fairly easy pickings.
+ Show Spoiler +
He defends his townread on yamato
He reprimands yamato's scumcall on Super. Honestly I'd be tempted to call scum here too, but I don't know super. Supersoft's idea that he should be mayor so as he does not get NKed isn't entirely stupid if he has that particular history, that his thinking that we should just agree with him when we don't know his alignment is blatantly retarded.
This seems fake. Even I know of the infamous Kush, and I know that what he does in thread is always going to be difficult to read. People should use policies to deal with unreadable wildcards, not openmindedness.
Page 3
He townreads HF from a probable pregame constructed pitch. Sounds like someone trying to sound like he has an opinion.
He defends his perspective by saying the point line up with his own pitch, and he knows he's town and so can infer HF's townishess. This should not convince anyone considering the likelihood that the points were made prior to roles being allotted, and the defense is circular logic that relies on us thinking him already town.
I do think that the defense does have a egocentric townish gleam to it, but this does little to counter the fact that he endorsed another player for reasons a critical town mind should have considered and rejected. He later addresses this criticism by saying it's possible it was written ingame, but since he does not have that information, this claim is an agnostic one, and does little to justify his town claim which really should come under fire. Scum like to look like town by making reads, but they don't like having to go through the motions of justifying that rationale since that's so much effort wasted. This was a scummy move and it demands more explanation.
He then makes this happen:
Which is an instance I spoke about previously but could not recall who had been in this hunt. I still do not know who he refers to, as I am diving his filter ATM, but this looks like scum seeing that time is being wasted, and encouraging it. At this point, Sharrane had said nothing alignment indicative. they weren't even the least active player, as I hadn't posted yet.
People that cherrypick specific but ultimately unjustifiable scumhunting to endorse, but do bugger-all scumhubting themselves, despite having quite probably the largest filter in the game, are not think about what's best for town. People that are not thinking about what's best for town, are not good town. or not town at all. People that are not good town should not be mayor.
Page 4
He sets up an irrational reason to butt heads with Mocsta if need be.
+ Show Spoiler +
For a town there is no reason for this, for a mafia, this is a justification to be unreasonable later. Not a town move.
He defends Storrzerg from Mocsta, on some fluff laden ground that he may not be new to the game, but is new to the format or some such. Bullshit. I'm way newer than that guys and I'm not shiteating my way into a BPvest by newbclaiming. I din't agree with some of Moc's points, but Storrzerg's noob-spiel was scummy as shit. Claiming otherwise requires remarkable reasoning that is yet to be provided.
VE then starts waving sticks at Grack. I don't feel good about Grack, so this is justified in my eyes, but it's damn low-hanging fruit. + Show Spoiler +
He then starts making a show of playing nice with Oats (this may have been happening for awhile, my view from the filter is limited). If he didn't make a show of it, I'd get a town read. That he made a show of it, makes is premeditated and worthless in terms of alignment indication.
Page 5
He asks Mocsta about Storrzerg, Grack, and HF. More getting other people to do his hunting/reasoning/justification.
Note: Why even ask about Grack? I may be being a little narrow-minded, but Grack's status seems objectively unmisinterpretable? If you're town, why ask questions to which you already know the answers?
More fluff
Page 6
At the top of page 6 of his filter, VE launches his campaign anew, which I think is a good idea if you're planning on evolving to suit your demographic. Good politics.
His lynch list is anyone of four people, which IMO is cowardly, though in some ways reasonable. He denies scum info, but doesn't have to make any promises. I personally do not like this, and I have already covered how this could be a powerful scum maneuver. Personally I'm confident I know who he will lynch if he is town, and if it is that obvious then scum could know and it's just poor town play.
For reference, his list is Grackaroni, Storrzerg, Sharrant, and Skanjab1s
In the same post, he encourages yamato to be an active pardoner, which I think looks scummy. Yamato was straight up and honest about his views on this, and his honesty is making things nice and clear for town that we don't want him as pardoner. Ve is encouraging someone to make anti-town actions, and will later be able to criticise the specifics of those actions if they turn out poorly. "I wanted you to use the power, but not to save a scummer!'
He then, over the course of defending his decision to back yamato as pardoner, realises that both the mayor and pardoner get vests. I don't know what to make of this, I could probably paint this red, but I don't thinks it's indicative.
Nudges yamato for mason information. More externalising the hunt.
He adds Pardain to the list. I don't know how I feel about the fact that it's Pardain, since to my knowledge Pardain has not done anything noteworthy. I do not like that he's further expanding his lynch options.
Gives BC and Mocsta a town read.
Page 8
His new list: Skanjab, Pandain, and Sharrant.
Are you kidding? I though Grack the obvious pick since the rest were no names.. Storrzerg is still on my to-do list, but he's not nearly of the same magnitude of scumminess as Grack. Now he's taken off both my scummy picks to put up a solid list of people of whom I do not recall a single thing? Sure they're not confirmed town, but how about an actual case for anyone of them being scum?
Conclusion:
The game VE plays is entirely political. He's keeping options open, and manipulating the town environment. He hasn't made any reasonable plays at cases, just held up lures to see which bait will get him elected. "Will any of you vote for me if I say that I might lynch X?"
He hasn't done any town work that demonstrates town thought. He's shaped our hunt under the guise of pro-town sentiment. He's not putting himself in a position to be held accountable for his actions. He's no longer even contemplating lynching anyone I think particularly scummy. He's been very active but achieved very little.
I think him scummy, but not necessarily a day 1 lynch. His momentum will get him caught if I am right and he is scum, but in the immediate, I absolutely do not want this person as my mayor. This is even more important, in that VE getting mayor puts Yamato as pardoner. I don't mind Yamato as mayor nearly as much as I do VE, but I'm happy for him to be out of the running entirely if someone else can step up.
My preliminary case on VE
I think this post important, as I both want it to be used in shutting down VE's attempt at mayordom, but also potentially later to launch an investigation on him. I've spoilered it as it is large, but do not disregard it please.
I've done this entirely through a prolonged filter dive, so there is some information missing.
+ Show Spoiler +
Context: VE has been giving a town vibe to most, including until recently, myself. Skimming the thread he seems to post a lot, and not done anything particularly scummy. It is the accumulation of microswings that has me suspicious. He is currently winning the election, the threat on the table to have him as mayor, and yamato as pardoner. I do not want either of these things to happen.
I’m not trying to get him lynched, as I see him as not a threat if scum. He’s giving information too easily so far for him to not be caught. I just want him to not be mayor, and you should too.
VE has an eight page filter, which is appropriate since he’s running for mayor. The density of useful information is low, which is not at all appropriate.
Page 1
First half page is pregame chatter
Second half he launches his platform for candidacy. His platform essentially promises that he will lynch someone, but won’t commit to anything. Good politics, but does not give town anything to work with.
He then gives a town read and a thumbs up to yamato, but this is no big deal since yamato is pretty much confirmed town.
Page 2
He doesn't like SS's tone, which I agree with, but is fairly easy pickings.
+ Show Spoiler +
He defends his townread on yamato
He reprimands yamato's scumcall on Super. Honestly I'd be tempted to call scum here too, but I don't know super. Supersoft's idea that he should be mayor so as he does not get NKed isn't entirely stupid if he has that particular history, that his thinking that we should just agree with him when we don't know his alignment is blatantly retarded.
I don't know what I think of lynching Kush yet because Kush hasn't arrived. So I have no opinion of your platform as yet.
This seems fake. Even I know of the infamous Kush, and I know that what he does in thread is always going to be difficult to read. People should use policies to deal with unreadable wildcards, not openmindedness.
Page 3
He townreads HF from a probable pregame constructed pitch. Sounds like someone trying to sound like he has an opinion.
He defends his perspective by saying the point line up with his own pitch, and he knows he's town and so can infer HF's townishess. This should not convince anyone considering the likelihood that the points were made prior to roles being allotted, and the defense is circular logic that relies on us thinking him already town.
I do think that the defense does have a egocentric townish gleam to it, but this does little to counter the fact that he endorsed another player for reasons a critical town mind should have considered and rejected. He later addresses this criticism by saying it's possible it was written ingame, but since he does not have that information, this claim is an agnostic one, and does little to justify his town claim which really should come under fire. Scum like to look like town by making reads, but they don't like having to go through the motions of justifying that rationale since that's so much effort wasted. This was a scummy move and it demands more explanation.
He then makes this happen:
On November 15 2013 10:38 VisceraEyes wrote:
I like that people are talking about Sharrant as well. Yes, this is most excellent.
I like that people are talking about Sharrant as well. Yes, this is most excellent.
Which is an instance I spoke about previously but could not recall who had been in this hunt. I still do not know who he refers to, as I am diving his filter ATM, but this looks like scum seeing that time is being wasted, and encouraging it. At this point, Sharrane had said nothing alignment indicative. they weren't even the least active player, as I hadn't posted yet.
People that cherrypick specific but ultimately unjustifiable scumhunting to endorse, but do bugger-all scumhubting themselves, despite having quite probably the largest filter in the game, are not think about what's best for town. People that are not thinking about what's best for town, are not good town. or not town at all. People that are not good town should not be mayor.
Page 4
He sets up an irrational reason to butt heads with Mocsta if need be.
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 15 2013 11:11 VisceraEyes wrote:
No matter what you do or say, I won't vote you for mayor this game because I hold grudges and last time I gave you the benefit of the doubt I got burned when an ounce of the same from you could have swung the game in our favor; get punished for that act now and it is expunged.
That being said, I'm interested to see StorrZerg actually provide some content before deciding whether I think he's mafia - content with regard to others' alignment and what he thinks about it.
No matter what you do or say, I won't vote you for mayor this game because I hold grudges and last time I gave you the benefit of the doubt I got burned when an ounce of the same from you could have swung the game in our favor; get punished for that act now and it is expunged.
That being said, I'm interested to see StorrZerg actually provide some content before deciding whether I think he's mafia - content with regard to others' alignment and what he thinks about it.
For a town there is no reason for this, for a mafia, this is a justification to be unreasonable later. Not a town move.
He defends Storrzerg from Mocsta, on some fluff laden ground that he may not be new to the game, but is new to the format or some such. Bullshit. I'm way newer than that guys and I'm not shiteating my way into a BPvest by newbclaiming. I din't agree with some of Moc's points, but Storrzerg's noob-spiel was scummy as shit. Claiming otherwise requires remarkable reasoning that is yet to be provided.
VE then starts waving sticks at Grack. I don't feel good about Grack, so this is justified in my eyes, but it's damn low-hanging fruit. + Show Spoiler +
Even if they are scum team (which I personally need to really consider as I think them both scummy on individual merit), they both know Grack isn't surviving until the end. VE's mayor platform names Grack as a candidate, but vehemently refuses to lock down to one target as this might give scum information. By not naming anyone, a mayor VE can put off killing Grack for 1-3 days easy, maximising confusion and killing the town clock.
He then starts making a show of playing nice with Oats (this may have been happening for awhile, my view from the filter is limited). If he didn't make a show of it, I'd get a town read. That he made a show of it, makes is premeditated and worthless in terms of alignment indication.
Page 5
He asks Mocsta about Storrzerg, Grack, and HF. More getting other people to do his hunting/reasoning/justification.
Note: Why even ask about Grack? I may be being a little narrow-minded, but Grack's status seems objectively unmisinterpretable? If you're town, why ask questions to which you already know the answers?
More fluff
Page 6
At the top of page 6 of his filter, VE launches his campaign anew, which I think is a good idea if you're planning on evolving to suit your demographic. Good politics.
His lynch list is anyone of four people, which IMO is cowardly, though in some ways reasonable. He denies scum info, but doesn't have to make any promises. I personally do not like this, and I have already covered how this could be a powerful scum maneuver. Personally I'm confident I know who he will lynch if he is town, and if it is that obvious then scum could know and it's just poor town play.
For reference, his list is Grackaroni, Storrzerg, Sharrant, and Skanjab1s
In the same post, he encourages yamato to be an active pardoner, which I think looks scummy. Yamato was straight up and honest about his views on this, and his honesty is making things nice and clear for town that we don't want him as pardoner. Ve is encouraging someone to make anti-town actions, and will later be able to criticise the specifics of those actions if they turn out poorly. "I wanted you to use the power, but not to save a scummer!'
He then, over the course of defending his decision to back yamato as pardoner, realises that both the mayor and pardoner get vests. I don't know what to make of this, I could probably paint this red, but I don't thinks it's indicative.
Nudges yamato for mason information. More externalising the hunt.
He adds Pardain to the list. I don't know how I feel about the fact that it's Pardain, since to my knowledge Pardain has not done anything noteworthy. I do not like that he's further expanding his lynch options.
Gives BC and Mocsta a town read.
Page 8
His new list: Skanjab, Pandain, and Sharrant.
Are you kidding? I though Grack the obvious pick since the rest were no names.. Storrzerg is still on my to-do list, but he's not nearly of the same magnitude of scumminess as Grack. Now he's taken off both my scummy picks to put up a solid list of people of whom I do not recall a single thing? Sure they're not confirmed town, but how about an actual case for anyone of them being scum?
Conclusion:
The game VE plays is entirely political. He's keeping options open, and manipulating the town environment. He hasn't made any reasonable plays at cases, just held up lures to see which bait will get him elected. "Will any of you vote for me if I say that I might lynch X?"
He hasn't done any town work that demonstrates town thought. He's shaped our hunt under the guise of pro-town sentiment. He's not putting himself in a position to be held accountable for his actions. He's no longer even contemplating lynching anyone I think particularly scummy. He's been very active but achieved very little.
I think him scummy, but not necessarily a day 1 lynch. His momentum will get him caught if I am right and he is scum, but in the immediate, I absolutely do not want this person as my mayor. This is even more important, in that VE getting mayor puts Yamato as pardoner. I don't mind Yamato as mayor nearly as much as I do VE, but I'm happy for him to be out of the running entirely if someone else can step up.
See the vote thread
