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I have played alot of BB using protoss and I would like to share what I think are the best strategies.
pvz
9/10 gate, put pressure on zerg before the power of their second hatch kicks in. If you scout 4/5/6 pool cancel second gate and make more probes and a shield battery = ez win.
pvt 9/10 gate (close to middle). Harass terran keep him turtled and pick off as many marines/scvs as possible. You can either tech to goons or try to offensive cannon. If they scv rush just hit and run with your probes delaying them until zealot pops out = ez win. If terran gets many tanks, its practically gg because they can have map control from the safety of their own base. If they try to wall early (3 spots can) harass with multiple probes.
pvp 10/12 gate. Mass gate zealot, mass goon, somewhat fast dt, etc are all viable its a game of rock paper scissors, except even more luck based than normal because 3/4 gate zealot/goon will easily beat fast observer build unlike a normal map where the observer build would be able to at least hold a ramp or something. Also note, cutting probe production can allow you to significantly overpower them for a period of time.
I'll post replays of pvz and pvt later. Pvp there are too many ways to play it, just one replay would not be a good example, but might post one anyways. Also might try to explain other races strategies at least versus protoss.
I am open to criticism and would like to see zerg and terran strats discussed here too. It is hard to find good BB opponents so if anyone wants to play or test strats, look for me on useast under the name loud-assassin.
Please, if you have not played BB a fair amount, don't post strats, at least without trying them out on BB first. Also please no comments about how BB is a noob map, this might be true, but this topic is about strategy not goodness of the map. Also I realize there have been BB threads before but, they are completely bloated with useless post and bad info, I figure it is best to start new thread.
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pvz
9/10 gate, put pressure on zerg before the power of their second hatch kicks in. If you scout 4/5/6 pool cancel second gate and make more probes and a shield battery = ez win.
why do you cancel 2nd gate? why not just add battery and build probes seems to me like cancelling gate would be dangerous if the zerg has good micro=-O
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Funny you should post this since I just started playing bb recently. It has really helped my micro vs proxies on other maps so that I don't always need a bunker anymore. Against Protosses though, I always find myself losing in late game (yes after I have several tanks) rather than early.
Also, looking on other previous bb threads, some people say to bunker at choke, others say at cc. I have been getting away with both lately, so any thoughts from a Toss perspective?
And what order do Terrans usually get their research? I have experimented with rine range first, then seige. This let's me hold off ranged goons a little longer with bunker until I can get seige. But I don't know when to throw stim into the equation.
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i would cancel the 2nd gate in that situation because it would free up money allowing you to make sure you have constant probe/zealot production with enough money for the battery and new pylons. you can still make all that stuff with 2 gates of course but the second gate would slow you down a bit, until you have enough revenue to pump continuously from both. a lot of the time i'd say it's worth it but on BB i'd say no because, if you do hold, 1 gate is enough to overpower the zerg and win. except if you're evenly matched micro-wise and he doesnt kill you but he buys enough time to put up sunks, but in that case 2 gate would be bad anyway and you'd want to just go gas asap.
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keep in mind that you need zealot, battery AND another pylon asap (a single pylon can be killed by lings pretty fast if you aren't careful). rather have one working gate than 2 unpowered ones. I think the idea is that nexus + 1 gate is enough to match the _rate_ of ling production from a 4-5 pooling Z.
So as long as nothing really bad happens (gate itself or gate power goes down) you're on the way to winning. Also, if you can get that 3rd zealot out (from 2nd gate) you obviously already won the game, so the 2nd gate doesn't actually help you win 
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*in before charliemurphy posts here*
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United States41600 Posts
Is BB really balanced?
I've always believed the low mineral expos favour Terran and Zerg because they can move their CC or lay extra hatches where they like. It's a much larger investment for the P. Also the ability to snipe those minerals using tanks or guardians makes life difficult for protoss. Tank pushes seem near unstoppable late game because the P is forced to charge his entire army through a choke from which he can be hit by tanks in the enemy main. But I've only played low level blood bath.
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On July 31 2007 07:34 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
why do you cancel 2nd gate? why not just add battery and build probes seems to me like cancelling gate would be dangerous if the zerg has good micro=-O
EmS.Radagast's answer is perfect in my opinion. I would just like to add that when the z is harassing you initially, you won't be mining minerals as fast as normal so you won't have enough money to pump from 2 gate anyways. You can win with 2 gates fine, but the battery helps survive the initial attack so I think overall your chances of winning are higher because zerg's economy is so bad that you will win 100% if you survive.
On July 31 2007 07:49 NatsuTerran wrote:
Also, looking on other previous bb threads, some people say to bunker at choke, others say at cc. I have been getting away with both lately, so any thoughts from a Toss perspective?
I think initially if you do bunker it has to be near cc. It is just too easy to keep runing zealots past the bunker at choke point. Later if you can by all means make one at choke point. Typically as toss I try to keep the pressure on so they never can make bunker at choke. If you do 2 pretty fast rax, like bbs or 9B 10S 10B I think you can actually get by with no bunker but it will be difficult to micro well. Building placement matters alot here. You want your buildings so your marines can run through the cracks but not the zealots.
On July 31 2007 07:49 NatsuTerran wrote:
And what order do Terrans usually get their research? I have experimented with rine range first, then seige. This let's me hold off ranged goons a little longer with bunker until I can get seige. But I don't know when to throw stim into the equation.
I'd say it depends what your going for. You don't have to go straight for tanks, marine+medic is pretty strong and if you do that go stim first. If you go straight for tanks range first if at all. I'm not that great at terran so I can't say which way of playing is more effective but both are doable. Hopefully a terran expert can answer these questions better than me.
Also NatsuTerran, could you post a rep of toss winning later game against terran, maybe we could give some advice, or if not I would learn something from the toss
On July 31 2007 08:33 Kwark wrote:
Is BB really balanced?
I think pvz and pvt is pretty balanced, those things you describe are true, but early game protoss is very strong so I think it makes up for it. tvz seems to favor t to me though but I haven't played this matchup much.
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what is this shit with the balanced Bloodbath? Terran dominate this map, tanks in the middle= hello map control, maybe only protoss cannon rush is a pain in the ass, however with 8 barrack u can overcome it.
p.s PvZ if the zerg has good micro and starts 9 pool with gas and speedlings, toss is so fucked up providing that he cannot block the entrance, I think starting with forge+gas + cannon then +1 attack when u gather 100 gas and then take out the probes from the gas and start building zealots from 2 gates and taking map control when + 1 attack is ready is better strat here
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You have good point, but as toss you can make it hard as shit to get tanks. I guess if both players were korean pro gamers then T would have the advantage.
In pvz if you scout that they are getting speed before second hatch you can make a forge and just build a cannon. Usually I don't do that though, instead just attack when you have 3-5 zealots and send some probes with. The zerg can try to rape your mining probes while you go attack, if so send a zealot back or set rally back if new zealots almost done you should be able to hurt their economy more then they hurt yours. If the zerg sends lings back to defend then you might not be able to do any damage, but neither can he, meanwhile you can block the choke using probe+zealots, sending probes back when new zealots come to plug the holes. What you have described is one of the most effective ways of playing zerg though and is always a tough micro fest for both sides.
Forge first to +1 attack is a decent strat, but if the zerg is smart he will focus on economy and do something like 3 hatch hydra ling (from 14 mineral patches). And you won't be able to scout his tech either.
Anyways we should just play and see how these strategies work out. I'm on useast under loud-assassin right now.
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Lol @ Dementus. I will rip this thread a new asshole in a few minutes.
edit- First of all let me show you these threads that I actually have bookmarked.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=3&topic_id=43760
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=9&topic_id=27775
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=4&topic_id=27455
check my blog I am Blood Bath & Painter (banned). There is a few others in those threads that know what they are talking about, but most are like everyone in this thread and have no clue what they are talking about. If you skim through those thread you can find a few nice pictures on base setups and such. + Show Spoiler + OG Bloodbath for anyone who cares here is a nice tight terran base. There is marine hiding behind the geyser ^_- and in the minerals with scv is good bunker substitute for all the bases. I think that turret helps gas collection. Turret+depot optimizes gas collection. Turret and Academy optimizes gas collection and mineral collection, because the minerals are badly placed and the scvs make a wierd return. This is probably the best position for T
Firstly T is slightly advantageous on bloodbath but its not totally imba. its like maybe 56% vs 44% or something like that.
Tanks are NOT auto win. in fact by the time you have enough tanks to start a push the toss usually has another base going up and they have map control and can flood middle from 3 directions. You actually have to start your push half way in your base sometimes to prevent the toss from smashing you while you setup or even countering afterwords. I've actually played a lot of long games where it comes down to carriers vs gollies and turrets.
The middle is unbuildable so it makes it hard for terran to defend from shuttles and obs. not to mention its small and psi storm is more effective. Early shuttle and obs usually just after they start their expo is enough to delay push. its that powerful. The most imbalance comes from position. If T spawns bottom right and P is bottom left you can tank their bridge from your base. Which is pretty annoying to say the least.
PS- Whoever said guards and tanks are good on the edges, toss can use a zeal for bait and storm the minerals from across just as easily. and no one is going to tech guards just to pick scv off, not to mention it can be easily countered. If anything zerg has no way to mass kill workers or stop a mining operation on the side.
Download Map & Picture:
+ Show Spoiler +Also This is the most balanced version of bloodbath, complete with terran Rax-depot-depot wallins at every spot. http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=1957Walls: + Show Spoiler +If any of you don't know how to wall on BB I put plating on the floor to give a semi blueprint. and here are the screenshots if you're still confused. ** The miniMap in the screenshots does NOT represent this version of the map. This version has the minerals more balanced out and the geysers are all on either the left or right for equal harassment opportunities at all bases. I am aware about the 4 on the right 3 on left gas issue but there is really no way to make it even without sacrificing compact base defense styles and space in general. So just deal with it.
As far as basic strat options here is what I use.
First of all let me mention some abnormal scouting strategies I have discovered.
scout on 8 or 9 usually.
A)
You can leave your worker in the middle and wait to see his come out and just go to his base right away (if you scout early).
B)
Scout diagnol, this accomplishes a few things. 1 if hes there you see his base, 2 his worker comes in from side X while yours comes out and you know hes from that spot since you are in the next one over (get it?), 3 hes zerg and you will always know where he is on first or second scout because you will either see his lord, or see his base. If not you will see his lord come into your base, and you will know where he is (unless he doesn't scout with lord which is stupid/sucks). And 4, If hes a shitty hacker he may accuse you of 'coming straight to his base' the only way he can know this is if he himself hacks.
C)
Zerg can send lord to middle and leave it there and wait for scout worker to come out. I use this sometimes to counter the diagnol scout but it doesn't always work and I'd just rather scout properly with lord to see tech.
==================================Protoss===============================
(All 8 pylon builds)
PvT - 9/12 gate depending on what T does (tech or mnm) I may add 1 or more gates than he has barracks if tech I will harass as much as possible (without losing zeals[very important]) while teching to goons and range. Vs MnM is really tough you have to have excellent micro and good timing as well as go for zeal legs asap while pumping zeals and u have a few goons. Usually just wait outside their base until they try and run out (with a huge force usually) and run into an empty base and waste time running around. until you have what you need. Its tough to explain but thats what I do and it usually works. Storm and Goons+range are other good variations to go for.
PvP - 10/12 gate usually harass and mass zeal fest back and forth can get up to 4-5 even 6 gate zeals with probes and shit. any tech build will usually get crushed by the mass zeal builds. the next tech can be mass goons with range which is good, but a better transition from the initial build (because of limited gas) is a few archons and storm with attack ups and forge/canons obv. Maybe some DT for map control/scouting. the problem with goon builds is they need obs and its just gas heavy in general. You only need a few HT or DT to control the middle.
PvZ - 9/10gate
1)If zerg is 4-5pooling, it is best to cancel gate and build a battery and another pylon. Also send 2-3 probes asap to harass his workers (scout diagnol on 8 btw). When zeal pops the lings will be arriving if not already there grab 3-4 probes and the zeal and micro and heal etc.
2) Versus a regular 9pool build, 9/12 gate is fine. Zerg harassment early is the main game just keep your zeals alive use micro with probes and zeals keep your base compact and at every opportunity try and repel the zerg FULLY out of your base and wall bridge with zeals probes asap and get canons up there.
The hardest part about PvZ imo is the scouting problem. Zerg has major map control and tech options at this point. You have to decipher if he is going mass ling/hydra 3(or more hatch) build otherwise known as 'vanilla build', Fast lurker tech, expansion, or even mutas (which is a crappy tech imo). One trick I use is put 2 probes on either side of your base wall you have walled your front. Click the minerals across the space so they slide through shit. Hopefully the zerg can't get both. Normally a toss can use a sair to scout but on this map its almost auto loss to tech gate and make sairs, especially just to see tech.
In the case of mass lings and/or hydras you will want to quickly get 2-3 canons mass zeals and +1 attack as well as legs.
In the case of fast lurkers you will want to get obs and goon/range asap. Storm helps a lot obviously but you can get by with the mass units.
In the case of mutas a few canons and goons/range is usually enough to keep defended but you will need to get storm/archons in order to mount and offensive.
=================================Zerg==================================
I will finish the rest of these later, Flag wants to play me ^^
ZvT - 9pool/9extractor/9lord get 200 gas for burrow/speed then back to minerals. Harass a lot burrow around his base so he has trouble placing depots and shit. Pick off as many things as you can including buildings. I think its safe to say that trading lings and marine is good 2:1 unlike toss where 2 rines is not a good trade for your zealot.
You can either continue harassment and 3 hatch mass lings and crush him, the vanilla style of ling/hydra with armor upgrade or something, or stop at 2nd hatch and get lurkers and take it from there. Mutas is really very situational, I mean you can really only use it if terran doesn't make MnM and goes metal since you only have 1 geyser.
Another very simple build is 9pool with initial harrass (no speedlings) and don't let your lings die. Keep him occupied while fast 1 hatch teching to lurkers. You may need some sunkens as well, I don't use it that much but it has been used and works against me.
ZvZ - I haven't played enough of these recently (since I stopped playing for a ling while) but I used to just do any regular zerg builds from 128x128 maps. Typical 9 or 12 pool builds with ling standoffs to muta/scourge battles with 1 base the entire game. But recently I played a very good zerg player who was doing some kind of hydralisk build and it was raping me, I don't know if it was because of my lack of micro or bad timing/choices but it seemed to be pretty effective.
ZvP - 9pool/9ex/9lord mass 100 gas for speed then back to minerals. Mass lings nonstop and build hatches with excess. I usually use the 3 hatch 'vanilla zerg'. Only time to build drones is to replace for the hatch you built, or when you have your 3rd hatch done and you have somewhat map control I usually make a volley of drones(5-9). But often I see I need more tech and use 2 hatch lurker, or even mutas (but generally its hard to use mutas on bb due to lack of gas). If you can get lurkers setup in the middle with ling/hydra support and scourges to pop the obs you can pretty much lockdown any toss.
PS- 4&5 pool is always viable, although most decent players will be able to stop it. It can still be very good at crippling an opponent or controlling the flow of the game.
===============================Terran==================================
Terran has so many options on bloodbath, this is one of the reasons why this map is in their favor. They can always try to do some kind of SCV rush early on and still recover back and totally screw up the early game build strats for example.
TvP -
1) 9depot/10rax/10depot (wall) at bridge. If toss gets in the base before wall is up though take your gas before he does. Then that opens up another problem though. Toss can build pylons or whatever and try and screw up your wall. Its annoying and you have to pull half your SCV to stop him and keep probes away. Make a marine and then a factory asap (you could even try to harass with the rine and kill a probe if your lucky). Keep an scv running around the map as long as possible you need to know what to build early on (if hes gonna try and break your wall, or tech goons,etc.) Make more rines whenever cash allows (usually i get 3-4). If he makes a lot of zeals get a vult or 2 before tank, otherwise get tank first. I usually have to keep 2-3 SCV around the wall to repair. If toss anticipates the tech build they often 1 gate goon asap. Often times I will build a bunker behind the wall to extend marine range before and buy a little time for tanks.
I usually try and get vulture upgrades first (because obs are usually slower) but sometimes you MUST get siege mode first. Also if you suspect DT or drop tech make your ebay on the closest side to his base and float it over for scouting purposes (you will either see a lot of goons to kill it or very few which implies tech) and build a few turrets in key spots.
2) I'm not too sure on the details of this build because I don't prefer it but it is very viable. 9rax/10depot/11rax/11bunker (near CC) proceed with typical MnM build. 3rd rax around 15-18 supply (i'm not too sure). Make sure you keep you base scouted so he doesn't surprise you with proxy canons/batteries (you must counter this asap with Marines/SCV and micro). Get medics and stim/range tech, turrets and scan as well. Then switch to metal (vults/mines first even) if he doesn't die at this point. Also watch for out for storm.
3) This is the older method I used for typical TvP before I discovered how to wall (previously thought you couldn't except top left). 9rax/10depot/11bunker(nearCC) Very few marines 4 in bunker and like 2-3 in minerals for microing. You want a nice compact base put as much shit around the bunker as possible to prevent zealots from harassing easily (and especially picking of building SCVs). Get your factory up asap (somewhere between 15-18 supply). Get tanks and siege mode asap as well. You will want to seige the tank(s) just behind the cc or bunker until you can work up enough force to take your entrance with a bunker. Remember to keep scouting with SCV too, so you can decide if you need turrets and/or scan faster.
4)There is even a variation to the MnM build that instead of making a CC bunk you take 2-3 scv and rally your first rines to their base and make the bunker near his gates. It forces toss to pull probes and micro vs scv/rines until he has more zealots. Even if the bunker does not get built the zealots/probes will be weakened or dead, his economy is weakened slightly and you can retreat safely. By the time the Protoss is on the offensive you will have enough marines stocked up in your compact base to skip making a defensive bunker.
There is even an old 'vanilla build' that works quite well. Mass rines and tanks with bunkers+range(turrets,scan,and stim if needed as well.)
TvZ - 9rax/10depot/11bunk(nearCC) Yes, this build DOES stop a 4-5pool as well as any other early pool build. Your first rine will come out and the bunker will finish at like the exact time the lings show up (proceed to micro/repair with SCV). If they don't choose a rush build you may even sub out the 11 bunk with another Barracks and make the bunk a bit later. Proceed with typical MnM build, try and scout as much as possible to see if fast lurkers or expansion is teching. When you have about 6-9 rines take about 3-4 scv and the marines and go to your bridge and build a bunker keep the scv there at least until the bunker finishes. I will usually make my ebay near the entrance as well just to narrow the opening a bit and get +1 attack up. Once you have typical MnM force (10 rines 2 meds 2bats) move out (but be weary of burrowlings or 3 sided middle flooding pincer attack of lings and/or lurkers.) You want to attack if possible but at the least keep the lurkers back and delay as much as possible until tanks/vessel come. Use your minimap eyes and be ready to stim, scan, and target anything that comes into the middle. When the zerg pushes you back to your base you should be getting range soon so the bunker/turret can hit lurkers safely or tanks and scan. Once you have tanks (you don't even need seige btw) you can press into the middle and take a base or attack him or his expansion.
There are a few different ways to play TvT that are very unusual.
TvT -
1)9rax/10depot at bridge. You don't need to complete a full wall as rines can get through anyways. Make rines asap and be ready to micro them with SCV support as well. If he went 2 or more barracks and/or MnM you will need to throw down a bunker near the rax and depot and put your 3-4 rines in it then get your factory. Otherwise skip bunker and make factory first. If he is doing similar build it may be wiser to get tank first but if he went marine build you will probably need 3-4 vultures and SCVs near by bunker to repair before you get tanks. Some may get 1 tank and siege going and immediately get a starport with wraith and dropship for harassment to control as well as mainly building tanks. If you scout port going up (usually by floating rax) it is wise to get an ebay, build a few key turrets, and build a few goliaths with range and +1attack upgrade. If he goes mass wraiths (which is hard from lack of gas) just turtle and make a few more gols, pick off as many tanks as you can and leap frog into a new base or into his main. From here on its typical TvT seige battles with floating buildings, turrets, gollies and drops. If you eventually get 2 or 3 bases BC are very good late game.
Another variation of this build that might work is mass vults and mines before tanks, but scans and rines usually are pretty good at stopping it. Its usually best to just gain footing with tanks and expand asap.
2)
Alternate build is 8rax/9depot/10rax mass rines and SCVs keep pressuring T, if you get a chance try and send 6 or more scv with all your rines and wrap them around the bunker and smash it, even if you don't win right then it gives you a good advantage and you can kill his depot etc. Just make sure you can defend a counter attack of vultures or a tank. From here on its just like I described in the first option.
MnM or rines into tanks.
I think I covered most of the basic strategies, If anyone has anything else to add or patch my builds, please send me a PM or whatever.
I will be posting this in my blog as well.
=======================================================================
As far as imbalance goes on this map:
T>P/T>Z slightly, it is situational and positional as well.
Z>P slightly again, its positional and situational.
Just to reiterate I think terran is only like 56%:44% imbalance, its not blatantly imbalanced. Use your head when terran has tanks all over the place, you have a few options.
PS- Surfer4Life is an excellent T player on BB (although BM at times) he usually uses a MnM vulture build that rapes me like 80% of the time PvT.
Final Note:
Play more Blood Bath people! You have the knowledge now. I find it harder and harder to find decent Blood Bath opponents these days. It makes me a shittier player when I have no challenge. This is why I don't care if you know all my strats, It helps me play better when you know what to do. Makes the game more fun (imo anyways).
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in bb
t>p
t>z
t>zealot.. ?!?!?!?!?!
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I don't have any reps, but the way toss usually beats me in late game is storming all my rines, and then rushing zeal goon at my tanks. You need either vults or rines to keep toss infantry off of your tanks, and with bood bath's center being so compact, I never have room to dodge storms.
Once the support units are gone, the tanks quickly fall.
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t assrapes zerg here.
come to think of it, t assrapes toss here too.
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4 drone pool will always beat 9 probe gate on Blood Bath. Always.
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Sweden1225 Posts
proberush> 4pool! (perhaps not, havent actually played BB in many years)
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p will crush t on bloodbath. just 2 gate into cannons at the t's base and you're golden. it's very hard as t to stop that.
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Haha daaman is right probe rush > 4 pool, but you'd have to scout super early.
phr4n7ik, hawk, whatisprotoss don't post this shit. All you are doing is reiterating opinions that have already been discussed but without providing any reasons. WhatisProtoss I have several reps of me beating 4pool with 9gate so "Always" is not correct. You could say your 4pool would beat my 9 gate always, but I doubt it would even if you are a far superior player than me.
Also I didn't mention this because 9 gate usually is sufficient to handle 4 pool, but if you scout the zerg before you build the gate and they do a 4/5/6 pool, then just forge. Forge is 100% win against this build, 9 gate is 75% I'd say. Sometimes I scout after pylon and usually I scout instantly if I see an overlord because then I know where they are. I really do not think 4 pool is that strong of a build against protoss.
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So much bad advice in this thread. Most of you have played like a handful of bloodbath games and decided that Strat X is the best and T is imba blah blah. You really sound stupid.
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On July 31 2007 09:49 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Flag wants to play me ^^
Who won? replays plz!!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img164.echo.cx/img164/3727/2terranbase5zf.jpg)
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