! [Q] Blood Bath Strategy - Page 3

On July 31 2007 15:48 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
I won't comment on anything other than the fact that pvp on blood bath is all about 4 gate zealot into cannon at choke then tech If you try to tech vs a good player with excellent micro you will be killed by zealots before it will do you any good 95% of the time.

On July 31 2007 09:49 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Lol @ Dementus. I will rip this thread a new asshole in a few minutes.

edit- First of all let me show you these threads that I actually have bookmarked.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=3&topic_id=43760
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=9&topic_id=27775
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=4&topic_id=27455
check my blog I am Blood Bath & Painter (banned). There is a few others in those threads that know what they are talking about, but most are like everyone in this thread and have no clue what they are talking about. If you skim through those thread you can find a few nice pictures on base setups and such. + Show Spoiler +

Firstly T is slightly advantageous on bloodbath but its not totally imba. its like maybe 56% vs 44% or something like that.

Tanks are NOT auto win. in fact by the time you have enough tanks to start a push the toss usually has another base going up and they have map control and can flood middle from 3 directions. You actually have to start your push half way in your base sometimes to prevent the toss from smashing you while you setup or even countering afterwords. I've actually played a lot of long games where it comes down to carriers vs gollies and turrets.

The middle is unbuildable so it makes it hard for terran to defend from shuttles and obs. not to mention its small and psi storm is more effective. Early shuttle and obs usually just after they start their expo is enough to delay push. its that powerful. The most imbalance comes from position. If T spawns bottom right and P is bottom left you can tank their bridge from your base. Which is pretty annoying to say the least.

PS- Whoever said guards and tanks are good on the edges, toss can use a zeal for bait and storm the minerals from across just as easily. and no one is going to tech guards just to pick scv off, not to mention it can be easily countered. If anything zerg has no way to mass kill workers or stop a mining operation on the side.


Download Map & Picture:

+ Show Spoiler +

As far as basic strat options here is what I use.

First of all let me mention some abnormal scouting strategies I have discovered.
scout on 8 or 9 usually.
A)
You can leave your worker in the middle and wait to see his come out and just go to his base right away (if you scout early).
B)
Scout diagnol, this accomplishes a few things. 1 if hes there you see his base, 2 his worker comes in from side X while yours comes out and you know hes from that spot since you are in the next one over (get it?), 3 hes zerg and you will always know where he is on first or second scout because you will either see his lord, or see his base. If not you will see his lord come into your base, and you will know where he is (unless he doesn't scout with lord which is stupid/sucks).
C)
Zerg can send lord to middle and leave it there and wait for scout worker to come out. I use this sometimes to counter the diagnol scout but it doesn't always work and I'd just rather scout properly with lord to see tech.
==================================Protoss===============================
(All 8 pylon builds)
PvT - 9/12 gate depending on what T does (tech or mnm) I may add 1 or more gates than he has barracks if tech I will harass as much as possible (without losing zeals[very important]) while teching to goons and range. Vs MnM is really tough you have to have excellent micro and good timing as well as go for zeal legs asap while pumping zeals and u have a few goons. Usually just wait outside their base until they try and run out (with a huge force usually) and run into an empty base and waste time running around. until you have what you need. Its tough to explain but thats what I do and it usually works. Storm and Goons+range are other good variations to go for.

PvP - 10/12 gate usually harass and mass zeal fest back and forth can get up to 4-5 even 6 gate zeals with probes and shit. any tech build will usually get crushed by the mass zeal builds. the next tech can be mass goons with range which is good, but a better transition from the initial build (because of limited gas) is a few archons and storm with attack ups and forge/canons obv. Maybe some DT for map control/scouting. the problem with goon builds is they need obs and its just gas heavy in general. You only need a few HT or DT to control the middle.

PvZ - 9/10gate
1)If zerg is 4-5pooling, it is best to cancel gate and build a battery and another pylon. Also send 2-3 probes asap to harass his workers (scout diagnol on 8 btw). When zeal pops the lings will be arriving if not already there grab 3-4 probes and the zeal and micro and heal etc.
2) Versus a regular 9pool build, 9/12 gate is fine. Zerg harassment early is the main game just keep your zeals alive use micro with probes and zeals keep your base compact and at every opportunity try and repel the zerg FULLY out of your base and wall bridge with zeals probes asap and get canons up there.

The hardest part about PvZ imo is the scouting problem. Zerg has major map control and tech options at this point. You have to decipher if he is going mass ling/hydra 3(or more hatch) build otherwise known as 'vanilla build', Fast lurker tech, expansion, or even mutas (which is a crappy tech imo). One trick I use is put 2 probes on either side of your base wall you have walled your front. Click the minerals across the space so they slide through shit. Hopefully the zerg can't get both. Normally a toss can use a sair to scout but on this map its almost auto loss to tech gate and make sairs, especially just to see tech.
In the case of mass lings and/or hydras you will want to quickly get 2-3 canons mass zeals and +1 attack as well as legs.
In the case of fast lurkers you will want to get obs and goon/range asap. Storm helps a lot obviously but you can get by with the mass units.
In the case of mutas a few canons and goons/range is usually enough to keep defended but you will need to get storm/archons in order to mount and offensive.
=================================Zerg==================================
I will finish the rest of these later, Flag wants to play me ^^

ZvT - 9pool/9extractor/9lord get 200 gas for burrow/speed then back to minerals. Harass a lot burrow around his base so he has trouble placing depots and shit. Pick off as many things as you can including buildings. I think its safe to say that trading lings and marine is good 2:1 unlike toss where 2 rines is not a good trade for your zealot.
You can either continue harassment and 3 hatch mass lings and crush him, the vanilla style of ling/hydra with armor upgrade or something, or stop at 2nd hatch and get lurkers and take it from there. Mutas is really very situational, I mean you can really only use it if terran doesn't make MnM and goes metal since you only have 1 geyser.
Another very simple build is 9pool with initial harrass (no speedlings) and don't let your lings die. Keep him occupied while fast 1 hatch teching to lurkers. You may need some sunkens as well, I don't use it that much but it has been used and works against me.

ZvZ - I haven't played enough of these recently (since I stopped playing for a ling while) but I used to just do any regular zerg builds from 128x128 maps. Typical 9 or 12 pool builds with ling standoffs to muta/scourge battles with 1 base the entire game. But recently I played a very good zerg player who was doing some kind of hydralisk build and it was raping me, I don't know if it was because of my lack of micro or bad timing/choices but it seemed to be pretty effective.

ZvP - 9pool/9ex/9lord mass 100 gas for speed then back to minerals. Mass lings nonstop and build hatches with excess. I usually use the 3 hatch 'vanilla zerg'. Only time to build drones is to replace for the hatch you built, or when you have your 3rd hatch done and you have somewhat map control I usually make a volley of drones(5-9). But often I see I need more tech and use 2 hatch lurker, or even mutas (but generally its hard to use mutas on bb due to lack of gas). If you can get lurkers setup in the middle with ling/hydra support and scourges to pop the obs you can pretty much lockdown any toss.

PS- 4&5 pool is always viable, although most decent players will be able to stop it. It can still be very good at crippling an opponent or controlling the flow of the game.

===============================Terran==================================
Terran has so many options on bloodbath, this is one of the reasons why this map is in their favor. They can always try to do some kind of SCV rush early on and still recover back and totally screw up the early game build strats for example.

TvP -
1) 9depot/10rax/10depot (wall) at bridge. If toss gets in the base before wall is up though take your gas before he does. Then that opens up another problem though. Toss can build pylons or whatever and try and screw up your wall. Its annoying and you have to pull half your SCV to stop him and keep probes away. Make a marine and then a factory asap (you could even try to harass with the rine and kill a probe if your lucky). Keep an scv running around the map as long as possible you need to know what to build early on (if hes gonna try and break your wall, or tech goons,etc.) Make more rines whenever cash allows (usually i get 3-4). If he makes a lot of zeals get a vult or 2 before tank, otherwise get tank first. I usually have to keep 2-3 SCV around the wall to repair. If toss anticipates the tech build they often 1 gate goon asap. Often times I will build a bunker behind the wall to extend marine range before and buy a little time for tanks.
I usually try and get vulture upgrades first (because obs are usually slower) but sometimes you MUST get siege mode first. Also if you suspect DT or drop tech make your ebay on the closest side to his base and float it over for scouting purposes (you will either see a lot of goons to kill it or very few which implies tech) and build a few turrets in key spots.
2) I'm not too sure on the details of this build because I don't prefer it but it is very viable. 9rax/10depot/11rax/11bunker (near CC) proceed with typical MnM build. 3rd rax around 15-18 supply (i'm not too sure). Make sure you keep you base scouted so he doesn't surprise you with proxy canons/batteries (you must counter this asap with Marines/SCV and micro). Get medics and stim/range tech, turrets and scan as well. Then switch to metal (vults/mines first even) if he doesn't die at this point. Also watch for out for storm.
3) This is the older method I used for typical TvP before I discovered how to wall (previously thought you couldn't except top left). 9rax/10depot/11bunker(nearCC) Very few marines 4 in bunker and like 2-3 in minerals for microing. You want a nice compact base put as much shit around the bunker as possible to prevent zealots from harassing easily (and especially picking of building SCVs). Get your factory up asap (somewhere between 15-18 supply). Get tanks and siege mode asap as well. You will want to seige the tank(s) just behind the cc or bunker until you can work up enough force to take your entrance with a bunker. Remember to keep scouting with SCV too, so you can decide if you need turrets and/or scan faster.
4)There is even a variation to the MnM build that instead of making a CC bunk you take 2-3 scv and rally your first rines to their base and make the bunker near his gates. It forces toss to pull probes and micro vs scv/rines until he has more zealots. Even if the bunker does not get built the zealots/probes will be weakened or dead, his economy is weakened slightly and you can retreat safely. By the time the Protoss is on the offensive you will have enough marines stocked up in your compact base to skip making a defensive bunker.

There is even an old 'vanilla build' that works quite well. Mass rines and tanks with bunkers+range(turrets,scan,and stim if needed as well.)

TvZ - 9rax/10depot/11bunk(nearCC) Yes, this build DOES stop a 4-5pool as well as any other early pool build. Your first rine will come out and the bunker will finish at like the exact time the lings show up (proceed to micro/repair with SCV). If they don't choose a rush build you may even sub out the 11 bunk with another Barracks and make the bunk a bit later. Proceed with typical MnM build, try and scout as much as possible to see if fast lurkers or expansion is teching. When you have about 6-9 rines take about 3-4 scv and the marines and go to your bridge and build a bunker keep the scv there at least until the bunker finishes. I will usually make my ebay near the entrance as well just to narrow the opening a bit and get +1 attack up. Once you have typical MnM force (10 rines 2 meds 2bats) move out (but be weary of burrowlings or 3 sided middle flooding pincer attack of lings and/or lurkers.) You want to attack if possible but at the least keep the lurkers back and delay as much as possible until tanks/vessel come. Use your minimap eyes and be ready to stim, scan, and target anything that comes into the middle. When the zerg pushes you back to your base you should be getting range soon so the bunker/turret can hit lurkers safely or tanks and scan. Once you have tanks (you don't even need seige btw) you can press into the middle and take a base or attack him or his expansion.

There are a few different ways to play TvT that are very unusual.
TvT -
1)9rax/10depot at bridge. You don't need to complete a full wall as rines can get through anyways. Make rines asap and be ready to micro them with SCV support as well. If he went 2 or more barracks and/or MnM you will need to throw down a bunker near the rax and depot and put your 3-4 rines in it then get your factory. Otherwise skip bunker and make factory first. If he is doing similar build it may be wiser to get tank first but if he went marine build you will probably need 3-4 vultures and SCVs near by bunker to repair before you get tanks. Some may get 1 tank and siege going and immediately get a starport with wraith and dropship for harassment to control as well as mainly building tanks. If you scout port going up (usually by floating rax) it is wise to get an ebay, build a few key turrets, and build a few goliaths with range and +1attack upgrade. If he goes mass wraiths (which is hard from lack of gas) just turtle and make a few more gols, pick off as many tanks as you can and leap frog into a new base or into his main. From here on its typical TvT seige battles with floating buildings, turrets, gollies and drops. If you eventually get 2 or 3 bases BC are very good late game.
Another variation of this build that might work is mass vults and mines before tanks, but scans and rines usually are pretty good at stopping it. Its usually best to just gain footing with tanks and expand asap.
2)
Alternate build is 8rax/9depot/10rax mass rines and SCVs keep pressuring T, if you get a chance try and send 6 or more scv with all your rines and wrap them around the bunker and smash it, even if you don't win right then it gives you a good advantage and you can kill his depot etc. Just make sure you can defend a counter attack of vultures or a tank. From here on its just like I described in the first option.
MnM or rines into tanks.

I think I covered most of the basic strategies, If anyone has anything else to add or patch my builds, please send me a PM or whatever.

I will be posting this in my blog as well.

=======================================================================
As far as imbalance goes on this map:
T>P/T>Z slightly, it is situational and positional as well.
Z>P slightly again, its positional and situational.
Just to reiterate I think terran is only like 56%:44% imbalance, its not blatantly imbalanced. Use your head when terran has tanks all over the place, you have a few options.

PS- Surfer4Life is an excellent T player on BB (although BM at times) he usually uses a MnM vulture build that rapes me like 80% of the time PvT.


Final Note:
Play more Blood Bath people! You have the knowledge now. I find it harder and harder to find decent Blood Bath opponents these days. It makes me a shittier player when I have no challenge. This is why I don't care if you know all my strats, It helps me play better when you know what to do. Makes the game more fun (imo anyways).

On August 02 2007 16:34 IntoTheWow wrote:
Basically in that rep of the wall in TvP any early carrier build is auto gg.

or more storm.

On August 02 2007 14:39 flag wrote:
I don't think the wall build sucks. The terran can still do a marine + scv or M&M rush which would own any fast tech or early expand. It also stops protoss scouting so you don't know if they are teching or rushing. The downside to the wall is you will be behind econimcally a little if you get harassed while building it

On August 02 2007 17:51 .kaz wrote:
Sorry to off topic, but when did blood bath become such a deep indepth map with so much strategy just for it? I never knew anyone still played it, let alone had such amazing strats. GJ Charlie!

On August 02 2007 16:34 IntoTheWow wrote:
Basically in that rep of the wall in TvP any early carrier build is auto gg.

or more storm.