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I have played alot of BB using protoss and I would like to share what I think are the best strategies.
pvz
9/10 gate, put pressure on zerg before the power of their second hatch kicks in. If you scout 4/5/6 pool cancel second gate and make more probes and a shield battery = ez win.
pvt 9/10 gate (close to middle). Harass terran keep him turtled and pick off as many marines/scvs as possible. You can either tech to goons or try to offensive cannon. If they scv rush just hit and run with your probes delaying them until zealot pops out = ez win. If terran gets many tanks, its practically gg because they can have map control from the safety of their own base. If they try to wall early (3 spots can) harass with multiple probes.
pvp 10/12 gate. Mass gate zealot, mass goon, somewhat fast dt, etc are all viable its a game of rock paper scissors, except even more luck based than normal because 3/4 gate zealot/goon will easily beat fast observer build unlike a normal map where the observer build would be able to at least hold a ramp or something. Also note, cutting probe production can allow you to significantly overpower them for a period of time.
I'll post replays of pvz and pvt later. Pvp there are too many ways to play it, just one replay would not be a good example, but might post one anyways. Also might try to explain other races strategies at least versus protoss.
I am open to criticism and would like to see zerg and terran strats discussed here too. It is hard to find good BB opponents so if anyone wants to play or test strats, look for me on useast under the name loud-assassin.
Please, if you have not played BB a fair amount, don't post strats, at least without trying them out on BB first. Also please no comments about how BB is a noob map, this might be true, but this topic is about strategy not goodness of the map. Also I realize there have been BB threads before but, they are completely bloated with useless post and bad info, I figure it is best to start new thread.
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pvz
9/10 gate, put pressure on zerg before the power of their second hatch kicks in. If you scout 4/5/6 pool cancel second gate and make more probes and a shield battery = ez win.
why do you cancel 2nd gate? why not just add battery and build probes seems to me like cancelling gate would be dangerous if the zerg has good micro=-O
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Funny you should post this since I just started playing bb recently. It has really helped my micro vs proxies on other maps so that I don't always need a bunker anymore. Against Protosses though, I always find myself losing in late game (yes after I have several tanks) rather than early.
Also, looking on other previous bb threads, some people say to bunker at choke, others say at cc. I have been getting away with both lately, so any thoughts from a Toss perspective?
And what order do Terrans usually get their research? I have experimented with rine range first, then seige. This let's me hold off ranged goons a little longer with bunker until I can get seige. But I don't know when to throw stim into the equation.
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i would cancel the 2nd gate in that situation because it would free up money allowing you to make sure you have constant probe/zealot production with enough money for the battery and new pylons. you can still make all that stuff with 2 gates of course but the second gate would slow you down a bit, until you have enough revenue to pump continuously from both. a lot of the time i'd say it's worth it but on BB i'd say no because, if you do hold, 1 gate is enough to overpower the zerg and win. except if you're evenly matched micro-wise and he doesnt kill you but he buys enough time to put up sunks, but in that case 2 gate would be bad anyway and you'd want to just go gas asap.
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keep in mind that you need zealot, battery AND another pylon asap (a single pylon can be killed by lings pretty fast if you aren't careful). rather have one working gate than 2 unpowered ones. I think the idea is that nexus + 1 gate is enough to match the _rate_ of ling production from a 4-5 pooling Z.
So as long as nothing really bad happens (gate itself or gate power goes down) you're on the way to winning. Also, if you can get that 3rd zealot out (from 2nd gate) you obviously already won the game, so the 2nd gate doesn't actually help you win 
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*in before charliemurphy posts here*
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United States42186 Posts
Is BB really balanced?
I've always believed the low mineral expos favour Terran and Zerg because they can move their CC or lay extra hatches where they like. It's a much larger investment for the P. Also the ability to snipe those minerals using tanks or guardians makes life difficult for protoss. Tank pushes seem near unstoppable late game because the P is forced to charge his entire army through a choke from which he can be hit by tanks in the enemy main. But I've only played low level blood bath.
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On July 31 2007 07:34 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
why do you cancel 2nd gate? why not just add battery and build probes seems to me like cancelling gate would be dangerous if the zerg has good micro=-O
EmS.Radagast's answer is perfect in my opinion. I would just like to add that when the z is harassing you initially, you won't be mining minerals as fast as normal so you won't have enough money to pump from 2 gate anyways. You can win with 2 gates fine, but the battery helps survive the initial attack so I think overall your chances of winning are higher because zerg's economy is so bad that you will win 100% if you survive.
On July 31 2007 07:49 NatsuTerran wrote:
Also, looking on other previous bb threads, some people say to bunker at choke, others say at cc. I have been getting away with both lately, so any thoughts from a Toss perspective?
I think initially if you do bunker it has to be near cc. It is just too easy to keep runing zealots past the bunker at choke point. Later if you can by all means make one at choke point. Typically as toss I try to keep the pressure on so they never can make bunker at choke. If you do 2 pretty fast rax, like bbs or 9B 10S 10B I think you can actually get by with no bunker but it will be difficult to micro well. Building placement matters alot here. You want your buildings so your marines can run through the cracks but not the zealots.
On July 31 2007 07:49 NatsuTerran wrote:
And what order do Terrans usually get their research? I have experimented with rine range first, then seige. This let's me hold off ranged goons a little longer with bunker until I can get seige. But I don't know when to throw stim into the equation.
I'd say it depends what your going for. You don't have to go straight for tanks, marine+medic is pretty strong and if you do that go stim first. If you go straight for tanks range first if at all. I'm not that great at terran so I can't say which way of playing is more effective but both are doable. Hopefully a terran expert can answer these questions better than me.
Also NatsuTerran, could you post a rep of toss winning later game against terran, maybe we could give some advice, or if not I would learn something from the toss
On July 31 2007 08:33 Kwark wrote:
Is BB really balanced?
I think pvz and pvt is pretty balanced, those things you describe are true, but early game protoss is very strong so I think it makes up for it. tvz seems to favor t to me though but I haven't played this matchup much.
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what is this shit with the balanced Bloodbath? Terran dominate this map, tanks in the middle= hello map control, maybe only protoss cannon rush is a pain in the ass, however with 8 barrack u can overcome it.
p.s PvZ if the zerg has good micro and starts 9 pool with gas and speedlings, toss is so fucked up providing that he cannot block the entrance, I think starting with forge+gas + cannon then +1 attack when u gather 100 gas and then take out the probes from the gas and start building zealots from 2 gates and taking map control when + 1 attack is ready is better strat here
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You have good point, but as toss you can make it hard as shit to get tanks. I guess if both players were korean pro gamers then T would have the advantage.
In pvz if you scout that they are getting speed before second hatch you can make a forge and just build a cannon. Usually I don't do that though, instead just attack when you have 3-5 zealots and send some probes with. The zerg can try to rape your mining probes while you go attack, if so send a zealot back or set rally back if new zealots almost done you should be able to hurt their economy more then they hurt yours. If the zerg sends lings back to defend then you might not be able to do any damage, but neither can he, meanwhile you can block the choke using probe+zealots, sending probes back when new zealots come to plug the holes. What you have described is one of the most effective ways of playing zerg though and is always a tough micro fest for both sides.
Forge first to +1 attack is a decent strat, but if the zerg is smart he will focus on economy and do something like 3 hatch hydra ling (from 14 mineral patches). And you won't be able to scout his tech either.
Anyways we should just play and see how these strategies work out. I'm on useast under loud-assassin right now.
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Lol @ Dementus. I will rip this thread a new asshole in a few minutes.
edit- First of all let me show you these threads that I actually have bookmarked.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=3&topic_id=43760
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=9&topic_id=27775
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=4&topic_id=27455
check my blog I am Blood Bath & Painter (banned). There is a few others in those threads that know what they are talking about, but most are like everyone in this thread and have no clue what they are talking about. If you skim through those thread you can find a few nice pictures on base setups and such. + Show Spoiler + OG Bloodbath for anyone who cares here is a nice tight terran base. There is marine hiding behind the geyser ^_- and in the minerals with scv is good bunker substitute for all the bases. I think that turret helps gas collection. Turret+depot optimizes gas collection. Turret and Academy optimizes gas collection and mineral collection, because the minerals are badly placed and the scvs make a wierd return. This is probably the best position for T
Firstly T is slightly advantageous on bloodbath but its not totally imba. its like maybe 56% vs 44% or something like that.
Tanks are NOT auto win. in fact by the time you have enough tanks to start a push the toss usually has another base going up and they have map control and can flood middle from 3 directions. You actually have to start your push half way in your base sometimes to prevent the toss from smashing you while you setup or even countering afterwords. I've actually played a lot of long games where it comes down to carriers vs gollies and turrets.
The middle is unbuildable so it makes it hard for terran to defend from shuttles and obs. not to mention its small and psi storm is more effective. Early shuttle and obs usually just after they start their expo is enough to delay push. its that powerful. The most imbalance comes from position. If T spawns bottom right and P is bottom left you can tank their bridge from your base. Which is pretty annoying to say the least.
PS- Whoever said guards and tanks are good on the edges, toss can use a zeal for bait and storm the minerals from across just as easily. and no one is going to tech guards just to pick scv off, not to mention it can be easily countered. If anything zerg has no way to mass kill workers or stop a mining operation on the side.
Download Map & Picture:
+ Show Spoiler +Also This is the most balanced version of bloodbath, complete with terran Rax-depot-depot wallins at every spot. http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=1957Walls: + Show Spoiler +If any of you don't know how to wall on BB I put plating on the floor to give a semi blueprint. and here are the screenshots if you're still confused. ** The miniMap in the screenshots does NOT represent this version of the map. This version has the minerals more balanced out and the geysers are all on either the left or right for equal harassment opportunities at all bases. I am aware about the 4 on the right 3 on left gas issue but there is really no way to make it even without sacrificing compact base defense styles and space in general. So just deal with it.
As far as basic strat options here is what I use.
First of all let me mention some abnormal scouting strategies I have discovered.
scout on 8 or 9 usually.
A)
You can leave your worker in the middle and wait to see his come out and just go to his base right away (if you scout early).
B)
Scout diagnol, this accomplishes a few things. 1 if hes there you see his base, 2 his worker comes in from side X while yours comes out and you know hes from that spot since you are in the next one over (get it?), 3 hes zerg and you will always know where he is on first or second scout because you will either see his lord, or see his base. If not you will see his lord come into your base, and you will know where he is (unless he doesn't scout with lord which is stupid/sucks). And 4, If hes a shitty hacker he may accuse you of 'coming straight to his base' the only way he can know this is if he himself hacks.
C)
Zerg can send lord to middle and leave it there and wait for scout worker to come out. I use this sometimes to counter the diagnol scout but it doesn't always work and I'd just rather scout properly with lord to see tech.
==================================Protoss===============================
(All 8 pylon builds)
PvT - 9/12 gate depending on what T does (tech or mnm) I may add 1 or more gates than he has barracks if tech I will harass as much as possible (without losing zeals[very important]) while teching to goons and range. Vs MnM is really tough you have to have excellent micro and good timing as well as go for zeal legs asap while pumping zeals and u have a few goons. Usually just wait outside their base until they try and run out (with a huge force usually) and run into an empty base and waste time running around. until you have what you need. Its tough to explain but thats what I do and it usually works. Storm and Goons+range are other good variations to go for.
PvP - 10/12 gate usually harass and mass zeal fest back and forth can get up to 4-5 even 6 gate zeals with probes and shit. any tech build will usually get crushed by the mass zeal builds. the next tech can be mass goons with range which is good, but a better transition from the initial build (because of limited gas) is a few archons and storm with attack ups and forge/canons obv. Maybe some DT for map control/scouting. the problem with goon builds is they need obs and its just gas heavy in general. You only need a few HT or DT to control the middle.
PvZ - 9/10gate
1)If zerg is 4-5pooling, it is best to cancel gate and build a battery and another pylon. Also send 2-3 probes asap to harass his workers (scout diagnol on 8 btw). When zeal pops the lings will be arriving if not already there grab 3-4 probes and the zeal and micro and heal etc.
2) Versus a regular 9pool build, 9/12 gate is fine. Zerg harassment early is the main game just keep your zeals alive use micro with probes and zeals keep your base compact and at every opportunity try and repel the zerg FULLY out of your base and wall bridge with zeals probes asap and get canons up there.
The hardest part about PvZ imo is the scouting problem. Zerg has major map control and tech options at this point. You have to decipher if he is going mass ling/hydra 3(or more hatch) build otherwise known as 'vanilla build', Fast lurker tech, expansion, or even mutas (which is a crappy tech imo). One trick I use is put 2 probes on either side of your base wall you have walled your front. Click the minerals across the space so they slide through shit. Hopefully the zerg can't get both. Normally a toss can use a sair to scout but on this map its almost auto loss to tech gate and make sairs, especially just to see tech.
In the case of mass lings and/or hydras you will want to quickly get 2-3 canons mass zeals and +1 attack as well as legs.
In the case of fast lurkers you will want to get obs and goon/range asap. Storm helps a lot obviously but you can get by with the mass units.
In the case of mutas a few canons and goons/range is usually enough to keep defended but you will need to get storm/archons in order to mount and offensive.
=================================Zerg==================================
I will finish the rest of these later, Flag wants to play me ^^
ZvT - 9pool/9extractor/9lord get 200 gas for burrow/speed then back to minerals. Harass a lot burrow around his base so he has trouble placing depots and shit. Pick off as many things as you can including buildings. I think its safe to say that trading lings and marine is good 2:1 unlike toss where 2 rines is not a good trade for your zealot.
You can either continue harassment and 3 hatch mass lings and crush him, the vanilla style of ling/hydra with armor upgrade or something, or stop at 2nd hatch and get lurkers and take it from there. Mutas is really very situational, I mean you can really only use it if terran doesn't make MnM and goes metal since you only have 1 geyser.
Another very simple build is 9pool with initial harrass (no speedlings) and don't let your lings die. Keep him occupied while fast 1 hatch teching to lurkers. You may need some sunkens as well, I don't use it that much but it has been used and works against me.
ZvZ - I haven't played enough of these recently (since I stopped playing for a ling while) but I used to just do any regular zerg builds from 128x128 maps. Typical 9 or 12 pool builds with ling standoffs to muta/scourge battles with 1 base the entire game. But recently I played a very good zerg player who was doing some kind of hydralisk build and it was raping me, I don't know if it was because of my lack of micro or bad timing/choices but it seemed to be pretty effective.
ZvP - 9pool/9ex/9lord mass 100 gas for speed then back to minerals. Mass lings nonstop and build hatches with excess. I usually use the 3 hatch 'vanilla zerg'. Only time to build drones is to replace for the hatch you built, or when you have your 3rd hatch done and you have somewhat map control I usually make a volley of drones(5-9). But often I see I need more tech and use 2 hatch lurker, or even mutas (but generally its hard to use mutas on bb due to lack of gas). If you can get lurkers setup in the middle with ling/hydra support and scourges to pop the obs you can pretty much lockdown any toss.
PS- 4&5 pool is always viable, although most decent players will be able to stop it. It can still be very good at crippling an opponent or controlling the flow of the game.
===============================Terran==================================
Terran has so many options on bloodbath, this is one of the reasons why this map is in their favor. They can always try to do some kind of SCV rush early on and still recover back and totally screw up the early game build strats for example.
TvP -
1) 9depot/10rax/10depot (wall) at bridge. If toss gets in the base before wall is up though take your gas before he does. Then that opens up another problem though. Toss can build pylons or whatever and try and screw up your wall. Its annoying and you have to pull half your SCV to stop him and keep probes away. Make a marine and then a factory asap (you could even try to harass with the rine and kill a probe if your lucky). Keep an scv running around the map as long as possible you need to know what to build early on (if hes gonna try and break your wall, or tech goons,etc.) Make more rines whenever cash allows (usually i get 3-4). If he makes a lot of zeals get a vult or 2 before tank, otherwise get tank first. I usually have to keep 2-3 SCV around the wall to repair. If toss anticipates the tech build they often 1 gate goon asap. Often times I will build a bunker behind the wall to extend marine range before and buy a little time for tanks.
I usually try and get vulture upgrades first (because obs are usually slower) but sometimes you MUST get siege mode first. Also if you suspect DT or drop tech make your ebay on the closest side to his base and float it over for scouting purposes (you will either see a lot of goons to kill it or very few which implies tech) and build a few turrets in key spots.
2) I'm not too sure on the details of this build because I don't prefer it but it is very viable. 9rax/10depot/11rax/11bunker (near CC) proceed with typical MnM build. 3rd rax around 15-18 supply (i'm not too sure). Make sure you keep you base scouted so he doesn't surprise you with proxy canons/batteries (you must counter this asap with Marines/SCV and micro). Get medics and stim/range tech, turrets and scan as well. Then switch to metal (vults/mines first even) if he doesn't die at this point. Also watch for out for storm.
3) This is the older method I used for typical TvP before I discovered how to wall (previously thought you couldn't except top left). 9rax/10depot/11bunker(nearCC) Very few marines 4 in bunker and like 2-3 in minerals for microing. You want a nice compact base put as much shit around the bunker as possible to prevent zealots from harassing easily (and especially picking of building SCVs). Get your factory up asap (somewhere between 15-18 supply). Get tanks and siege mode asap as well. You will want to seige the tank(s) just behind the cc or bunker until you can work up enough force to take your entrance with a bunker. Remember to keep scouting with SCV too, so you can decide if you need turrets and/or scan faster.
4)There is even a variation to the MnM build that instead of making a CC bunk you take 2-3 scv and rally your first rines to their base and make the bunker near his gates. It forces toss to pull probes and micro vs scv/rines until he has more zealots. Even if the bunker does not get built the zealots/probes will be weakened or dead, his economy is weakened slightly and you can retreat safely. By the time the Protoss is on the offensive you will have enough marines stocked up in your compact base to skip making a defensive bunker.
There is even an old 'vanilla build' that works quite well. Mass rines and tanks with bunkers+range(turrets,scan,and stim if needed as well.)
TvZ - 9rax/10depot/11bunk(nearCC) Yes, this build DOES stop a 4-5pool as well as any other early pool build. Your first rine will come out and the bunker will finish at like the exact time the lings show up (proceed to micro/repair with SCV). If they don't choose a rush build you may even sub out the 11 bunk with another Barracks and make the bunk a bit later. Proceed with typical MnM build, try and scout as much as possible to see if fast lurkers or expansion is teching. When you have about 6-9 rines take about 3-4 scv and the marines and go to your bridge and build a bunker keep the scv there at least until the bunker finishes. I will usually make my ebay near the entrance as well just to narrow the opening a bit and get +1 attack up. Once you have typical MnM force (10 rines 2 meds 2bats) move out (but be weary of burrowlings or 3 sided middle flooding pincer attack of lings and/or lurkers.) You want to attack if possible but at the least keep the lurkers back and delay as much as possible until tanks/vessel come. Use your minimap eyes and be ready to stim, scan, and target anything that comes into the middle. When the zerg pushes you back to your base you should be getting range soon so the bunker/turret can hit lurkers safely or tanks and scan. Once you have tanks (you don't even need seige btw) you can press into the middle and take a base or attack him or his expansion.
There are a few different ways to play TvT that are very unusual.
TvT -
1)9rax/10depot at bridge. You don't need to complete a full wall as rines can get through anyways. Make rines asap and be ready to micro them with SCV support as well. If he went 2 or more barracks and/or MnM you will need to throw down a bunker near the rax and depot and put your 3-4 rines in it then get your factory. Otherwise skip bunker and make factory first. If he is doing similar build it may be wiser to get tank first but if he went marine build you will probably need 3-4 vultures and SCVs near by bunker to repair before you get tanks. Some may get 1 tank and siege going and immediately get a starport with wraith and dropship for harassment to control as well as mainly building tanks. If you scout port going up (usually by floating rax) it is wise to get an ebay, build a few key turrets, and build a few goliaths with range and +1attack upgrade. If he goes mass wraiths (which is hard from lack of gas) just turtle and make a few more gols, pick off as many tanks as you can and leap frog into a new base or into his main. From here on its typical TvT seige battles with floating buildings, turrets, gollies and drops. If you eventually get 2 or 3 bases BC are very good late game.
Another variation of this build that might work is mass vults and mines before tanks, but scans and rines usually are pretty good at stopping it. Its usually best to just gain footing with tanks and expand asap.
2)
Alternate build is 8rax/9depot/10rax mass rines and SCVs keep pressuring T, if you get a chance try and send 6 or more scv with all your rines and wrap them around the bunker and smash it, even if you don't win right then it gives you a good advantage and you can kill his depot etc. Just make sure you can defend a counter attack of vultures or a tank. From here on its just like I described in the first option.
MnM or rines into tanks.
I think I covered most of the basic strategies, If anyone has anything else to add or patch my builds, please send me a PM or whatever.
I will be posting this in my blog as well.
=======================================================================
As far as imbalance goes on this map:
T>P/T>Z slightly, it is situational and positional as well.
Z>P slightly again, its positional and situational.
Just to reiterate I think terran is only like 56%:44% imbalance, its not blatantly imbalanced. Use your head when terran has tanks all over the place, you have a few options.
PS- Surfer4Life is an excellent T player on BB (although BM at times) he usually uses a MnM vulture build that rapes me like 80% of the time PvT.
Final Note:
Play more Blood Bath people! You have the knowledge now. I find it harder and harder to find decent Blood Bath opponents these days. It makes me a shittier player when I have no challenge. This is why I don't care if you know all my strats, It helps me play better when you know what to do. Makes the game more fun (imo anyways).
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in bb
t>p
t>z
t>zealot.. ?!?!?!?!?!
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I don't have any reps, but the way toss usually beats me in late game is storming all my rines, and then rushing zeal goon at my tanks. You need either vults or rines to keep toss infantry off of your tanks, and with bood bath's center being so compact, I never have room to dodge storms.
Once the support units are gone, the tanks quickly fall.
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United States32036 Posts
t assrapes zerg here.
come to think of it, t assrapes toss here too.
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4 drone pool will always beat 9 probe gate on Blood Bath. Always.
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Sweden1225 Posts
proberush> 4pool! (perhaps not, havent actually played BB in many years)
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p will crush t on bloodbath. just 2 gate into cannons at the t's base and you're golden. it's very hard as t to stop that.
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Haha daaman is right probe rush > 4 pool, but you'd have to scout super early.
phr4n7ik, hawk, whatisprotoss don't post this shit. All you are doing is reiterating opinions that have already been discussed but without providing any reasons. WhatisProtoss I have several reps of me beating 4pool with 9gate so "Always" is not correct. You could say your 4pool would beat my 9 gate always, but I doubt it would even if you are a far superior player than me.
Also I didn't mention this because 9 gate usually is sufficient to handle 4 pool, but if you scout the zerg before you build the gate and they do a 4/5/6 pool, then just forge. Forge is 100% win against this build, 9 gate is 75% I'd say. Sometimes I scout after pylon and usually I scout instantly if I see an overlord because then I know where they are. I really do not think 4 pool is that strong of a build against protoss.
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So much bad advice in this thread. Most of you have played like a handful of bloodbath games and decided that Strat X is the best and T is imba blah blah. You really sound stupid.
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On July 31 2007 09:49 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Flag wants to play me ^^
Who won? replays plz!!
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On July 31 2007 11:43 Cascade wrote:Who won? replays plz!!
Still waiting in op tl-west for him. must be on east, does anyone know his East ID? I have to get ready for work soon.
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On July 31 2007 09:33 flag wrote:
Anyways we should just play and see how these strategies work out. I'm on useast under loud-assassin right now.
gl hf both 
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On July 31 2007 11:46 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2007 09:33 flag wrote:
Anyways we should just play and see how these strategies work out. I'm on useast under loud-assassin right now. gl hf both
oh i missed that, Imma go now. ^^
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On July 31 2007 10:27 Liquid`Daaman wrote:
proberush> 4pool! (perhaps not, havent actually played BB in many years)
I actually think 3 probes constantly attacking the pool when it is morphing will destroy it.
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On July 31 2007 12:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2007 10:27 Liquid`Daaman wrote:
proberush> 4pool! (perhaps not, havent actually played BB in many years) I actually think 3 probes constantly attacking the pool when it is morphing will destroy it.
I think its 4 and they would have to be on there asap, that sacrifices your econ and if your gonna go all in you might as well rush with all your probes anyways because hes gonna try and stop your probes from killing it.
anyways gg between me and loud 0:1 for now, I gotta get ready for work. More games later.
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Since you can't build in the middle, tank pushes can be stopped with dts. Scan from one cc runs out fast and there is not enough gas to build vessels. Of course there are vultures but then you make cannons at entrance of your base and at one other where you put an exp. Teching to dts can be hard though. I think the marine + scv attack is often the best bet for terran in tvp, more dangerous than a later tank push.
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breavman delete your post before i slap you.
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On July 31 2007 09:57 NatsuTerran wrote:
I don't have any reps, but the way toss usually beats me in late game is storming all my rines, and then rushing zeal goon at my tanks. You need either vults or rines to keep toss infantry off of your tanks, and with bood bath's center being so compact, I never have room to dodge storms.
Once the support units are gone, the tanks quickly fall.
Sorry I didn't see this post earlier. I think if they tech to storm too quickly you could kill them with marine+scv attack. But if they tech reasonalby you have time to instead make lots of tanks and keep them spread out, spanning back into your base. Position them to be as anoying as possible, shooting across the caps. The center isn't so small that you have to have your marines all clumped up too. To manage a storm he will have to engage at the same time with troops and any attack the toss makes is probably going to hurt him more than you, unless he has alot more units, which shouldn't be the case.
Also Breavman, while I completely disagree with you I don't think you should delete your post, you provide reasons to backup your statement. The terran can use mines in the center as well as scan, sure theoretically toss can pump dts faster than you can regen scans, but thats a waste of money for toss, and you could just make another cc anyways.
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Terran will usually have turrets that can see at least to the edge of the bridges and mines around like 90% of the time. Besides, Once I see a toss going DT tech I can easily afford to make another in base CC and mine the side (2 scanners). They wil lalways have scanner juice too, godd terran will scout with other methods (scv,ebay,barracks) and save scans for detection.
If I see a toss making nonstop DTs or going Arbys I will often make a vessel too if necessary.
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I won't comment on anything other than the fact that pvp on blood bath is all about 4 gate zealot into cannon at choke then tech If you try to tech vs a good player with excellent micro you will be killed by zealots before it will do you any good 95% of the time.
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On July 31 2007 15:48 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:I won't comment on anything other than the fact that pvp on blood bath is all about 4 gate zealot into cannon at choke then tech If you try to tech vs a good player with excellent micro you will be killed by zealots before it will do you any good 95% of the time.
lol, sup EchoOfRain. I told you I sucked at PvP BB lol.
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Edit: Err weird..don't know how that happened
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United States1967 Posts
I'd love to see any good BB reps either one of you have (flag/charliemurphy)
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Ok I will try to remember to upload good replays as I play them, hard to find good opponents in public games, so msg me if anyone wants to play (loud-assassin on useast/west)
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I suppose I could post some very useful information here, I am a total noob now. But at what point I was a somewhat feared blood bath player
I ran into you today flag on bnet before I saw this thread, might as well post a replay of it:
rep ID number on battlereports: 32471
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32471
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United States1967 Posts
On August 01 2007 21:07 alphablend wrote:I suppose I could post some very useful information here, I am a total noob now. But at what point I was a somewhat feared blood bath player I ran into you today flag on bnet before I saw this thread, might as well post a replay of it: rep ID number on battlereports: 32471 LINK FOR REPLAY
I was actually surprised you won that game when flag expoed much earlier than you. I'm thinking he could have kept you contained you longer to one base and won :o
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Hey, yeah that was an interesting game between me and alphablend. I could use more practice against the wall build, not many terrans use it. I have some ideas for what to do differently next time, but I'd like to keep them a surprise
Here are 2 more reps of me v a random terran. These show how typical pvt games go usually for me.
http://www.darrenks.com/temp/1pvt.rep
http://www.darrenks.com/temp/1pvt2.rep
This guy was a decent player, but you can tell he doesn't play blood bath much, supply depot first is very difficult to survive with.
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charlie vs flag bo5 bb GO
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On July 31 2007 15:48 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:I won't comment on anything other than the fact that pvp on blood bath is all about 4 gate zealot into cannon at choke then tech If you try to tech vs a good player with excellent micro you will be killed by zealots before it will do you any good 95% of the time.
agreed
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I haven't played many good players TvP with wall style. I imagine at the higher level of play it really sucks and allows protoss to expand early on or map control with many tech options. I would be interested in just playing flag a shit load of TvP's and actually see how good the strat is.
but as far as walling vs pub I win like 95% of the time.
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I don't think the wall build sucks. The terran can still do a marine + scv or M&M rush which would own any fast tech or early expand. It also stops protoss scouting so you don't know if they are teching or rushing. The downside to the wall is you will be behind econimcally a little if you get harassed while building it
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On July 31 2007 09:49 CharlieMurphy wrote:Lol @ Dementus. I will rip this thread a new asshole in a few minutes. edit- First of all let me show you these threads that I actually have bookmarked. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=3&topic_id=43760http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=9&topic_id=27775http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=4&topic_id=27455check my blog I am Blood Bath & Painter (banned). There is a few others in those threads that know what they are talking about, but most are like everyone in this thread and have no clue what they are talking about. If you skim through those thread you can find a few nice pictures on base setups and such. + Show Spoiler + OG Bloodbath for anyone who cares here is a nice tight terran base. There is marine hiding behind the geyser ^_- and in the minerals with scv is good bunker substitute for all the bases. I think that turret helps gas collection. Turret+depot optimizes gas collection. Turret and Academy optimizes gas collection and mineral collection, because the minerals are badly placed and the scvs make a wierd return. This is probably the best position for T Firstly T is slightly advantageous on bloodbath but its not totally imba. its like maybe 56% vs 44% or something like that. Tanks are NOT auto win. in fact by the time you have enough tanks to start a push the toss usually has another base going up and they have map control and can flood middle from 3 directions. You actually have to start your push half way in your base sometimes to prevent the toss from smashing you while you setup or even countering afterwords. I've actually played a lot of long games where it comes down to carriers vs gollies and turrets. The middle is unbuildable so it makes it hard for terran to defend from shuttles and obs. not to mention its small and psi storm is more effective. Early shuttle and obs usually just after they start their expo is enough to delay push. its that powerful. The most imbalance comes from position. If T spawns bottom right and P is bottom left you can tank their bridge from your base. Which is pretty annoying to say the least. PS- Whoever said guards and tanks are good on the edges, toss can use a zeal for bait and storm the minerals from across just as easily. and no one is going to tech guards just to pick scv off, not to mention it can be easily countered. If anything zerg has no way to mass kill workers or stop a mining operation on the side. Download Map & Picture: + Show Spoiler +Also This is the most balanced version of bloodbath, complete with terran Rax-depot-depot wallins at every spot. http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=1957Walls: + Show Spoiler +If any of you don't know how to wall on BB I put plating on the floor to give a semi blueprint. and here are the screenshots if you're still confused. ** The miniMap in the screenshots does NOT represent this version of the map. This version has the minerals more balanced out and the geysers are all on either the left or right for equal harassment opportunities at all bases. I am aware about the 4 on the right 3 on left gas issue but there is really no way to make it even without sacrificing compact base defense styles and space in general. So just deal with it. As far as basic strat options here is what I use. First of all let me mention some abnormal scouting strategies I have discovered.scout on 8 or 9 usually. A)You can leave your worker in the middle and wait to see his come out and just go to his base right away (if you scout early). B)Scout diagnol, this accomplishes a few things. 1 if hes there you see his base, 2 his worker comes in from side X while yours comes out and you know hes from that spot since you are in the next one over (get it?), 3 hes zerg and you will always know where he is on first or second scout because you will either see his lord, or see his base. If not you will see his lord come into your base, and you will know where he is (unless he doesn't scout with lord which is stupid/sucks). C) Zerg can send lord to middle and leave it there and wait for scout worker to come out. I use this sometimes to counter the diagnol scout but it doesn't always work and I'd just rather scout properly with lord to see tech. ==================================Protoss===============================(All 8 pylon builds) PvT - 9/12 gate depending on what T does (tech or mnm) I may add 1 or more gates than he has barracks if tech I will harass as much as possible (without losing zeals[very important]) while teching to goons and range. Vs MnM is really tough you have to have excellent micro and good timing as well as go for zeal legs asap while pumping zeals and u have a few goons. Usually just wait outside their base until they try and run out (with a huge force usually) and run into an empty base and waste time running around. until you have what you need. Its tough to explain but thats what I do and it usually works. Storm and Goons+range are other good variations to go for. PvP - 10/12 gate usually harass and mass zeal fest back and forth can get up to 4-5 even 6 gate zeals with probes and shit. any tech build will usually get crushed by the mass zeal builds. the next tech can be mass goons with range which is good, but a better transition from the initial build (because of limited gas) is a few archons and storm with attack ups and forge/canons obv. Maybe some DT for map control/scouting. the problem with goon builds is they need obs and its just gas heavy in general. You only need a few HT or DT to control the middle. PvZ - 9/10gate 1)If zerg is 4-5pooling, it is best to cancel gate and build a battery and another pylon. Also send 2-3 probes asap to harass his workers (scout diagnol on 8 btw). When zeal pops the lings will be arriving if not already there grab 3-4 probes and the zeal and micro and heal etc. 2) Versus a regular 9pool build, 9/12 gate is fine. Zerg harassment early is the main game just keep your zeals alive use micro with probes and zeals keep your base compact and at every opportunity try and repel the zerg FULLY out of your base and wall bridge with zeals probes asap and get canons up there. The hardest part about PvZ imo is the scouting problem. Zerg has major map control and tech options at this point. You have to decipher if he is going mass ling/hydra 3(or more hatch) build otherwise known as 'vanilla build', Fast lurker tech, expansion, or even mutas (which is a crappy tech imo). One trick I use is put 2 probes on either side of your base wall you have walled your front. Click the minerals across the space so they slide through shit. Hopefully the zerg can't get both. Normally a toss can use a sair to scout but on this map its almost auto loss to tech gate and make sairs, especially just to see tech. In the case of mass lings and/or hydras you will want to quickly get 2-3 canons mass zeals and +1 attack as well as legs. In the case of fast lurkers you will want to get obs and goon/range asap. Storm helps a lot obviously but you can get by with the mass units. In the case of mutas a few canons and goons/range is usually enough to keep defended but you will need to get storm/archons in order to mount and offensive. =================================Zerg==================================I will finish the rest of these later, Flag wants to play me ^^ ZvT - 9pool/9extractor/9lord get 200 gas for burrow/speed then back to minerals. Harass a lot burrow around his base so he has trouble placing depots and shit. Pick off as many things as you can including buildings. I think its safe to say that trading lings and marine is good 2:1 unlike toss where 2 rines is not a good trade for your zealot. You can either continue harassment and 3 hatch mass lings and crush him, the vanilla style of ling/hydra with armor upgrade or something, or stop at 2nd hatch and get lurkers and take it from there. Mutas is really very situational, I mean you can really only use it if terran doesn't make MnM and goes metal since you only have 1 geyser. Another very simple build is 9pool with initial harrass (no speedlings) and don't let your lings die. Keep him occupied while fast 1 hatch teching to lurkers. You may need some sunkens as well, I don't use it that much but it has been used and works against me. ZvZ - I haven't played enough of these recently (since I stopped playing for a ling while) but I used to just do any regular zerg builds from 128x128 maps. Typical 9 or 12 pool builds with ling standoffs to muta/scourge battles with 1 base the entire game. But recently I played a very good zerg player who was doing some kind of hydralisk build and it was raping me, I don't know if it was because of my lack of micro or bad timing/choices but it seemed to be pretty effective. ZvP - 9pool/9ex/9lord mass 100 gas for speed then back to minerals. Mass lings nonstop and build hatches with excess. I usually use the 3 hatch 'vanilla zerg'. Only time to build drones is to replace for the hatch you built, or when you have your 3rd hatch done and you have somewhat map control I usually make a volley of drones(5-9). But often I see I need more tech and use 2 hatch lurker, or even mutas (but generally its hard to use mutas on bb due to lack of gas). If you can get lurkers setup in the middle with ling/hydra support and scourges to pop the obs you can pretty much lockdown any toss. PS- 4&5 pool is always viable, although most decent players will be able to stop it. It can still be very good at crippling an opponent or controlling the flow of the game. ===============================Terran==================================Terran has so many options on bloodbath, this is one of the reasons why this map is in their favor. They can always try to do some kind of SCV rush early on and still recover back and totally screw up the early game build strats for example. TvP - 1) 9depot/10rax/10depot (wall) at bridge. If toss gets in the base before wall is up though take your gas before he does. Then that opens up another problem though. Toss can build pylons or whatever and try and screw up your wall. Its annoying and you have to pull half your SCV to stop him and keep probes away. Make a marine and then a factory asap (you could even try to harass with the rine and kill a probe if your lucky). Keep an scv running around the map as long as possible you need to know what to build early on (if hes gonna try and break your wall, or tech goons,etc.) Make more rines whenever cash allows (usually i get 3-4). If he makes a lot of zeals get a vult or 2 before tank, otherwise get tank first. I usually have to keep 2-3 SCV around the wall to repair. If toss anticipates the tech build they often 1 gate goon asap. Often times I will build a bunker behind the wall to extend marine range before and buy a little time for tanks. I usually try and get vulture upgrades first (because obs are usually slower) but sometimes you MUST get siege mode first. Also if you suspect DT or drop tech make your ebay on the closest side to his base and float it over for scouting purposes (you will either see a lot of goons to kill it or very few which implies tech) and build a few turrets in key spots. 2) I'm not too sure on the details of this build because I don't prefer it but it is very viable. 9rax/10depot/11rax/11bunker (near CC) proceed with typical MnM build. 3rd rax around 15-18 supply (i'm not too sure). Make sure you keep you base scouted so he doesn't surprise you with proxy canons/batteries (you must counter this asap with Marines/SCV and micro). Get medics and stim/range tech, turrets and scan as well. Then switch to metal (vults/mines first even) if he doesn't die at this point. Also watch for out for storm. 3) This is the older method I used for typical TvP before I discovered how to wall (previously thought you couldn't except top left). 9rax/10depot/11bunker(nearCC) Very few marines 4 in bunker and like 2-3 in minerals for microing. You want a nice compact base put as much shit around the bunker as possible to prevent zealots from harassing easily (and especially picking of building SCVs). Get your factory up asap (somewhere between 15-18 supply). Get tanks and siege mode asap as well. You will want to seige the tank(s) just behind the cc or bunker until you can work up enough force to take your entrance with a bunker. Remember to keep scouting with SCV too, so you can decide if you need turrets and/or scan faster. 4)There is even a variation to the MnM build that instead of making a CC bunk you take 2-3 scv and rally your first rines to their base and make the bunker near his gates. It forces toss to pull probes and micro vs scv/rines until he has more zealots. Even if the bunker does not get built the zealots/probes will be weakened or dead, his economy is weakened slightly and you can retreat safely. By the time the Protoss is on the offensive you will have enough marines stocked up in your compact base to skip making a defensive bunker. There is even an old 'vanilla build' that works quite well. Mass rines and tanks with bunkers+range(turrets,scan,and stim if needed as well.) TvZ - 9rax/10depot/11bunk(nearCC) Yes, this build DOES stop a 4-5pool as well as any other early pool build. Your first rine will come out and the bunker will finish at like the exact time the lings show up (proceed to micro/repair with SCV). If they don't choose a rush build you may even sub out the 11 bunk with another Barracks and make the bunk a bit later. Proceed with typical MnM build, try and scout as much as possible to see if fast lurkers or expansion is teching. When you have about 6-9 rines take about 3-4 scv and the marines and go to your bridge and build a bunker keep the scv there at least until the bunker finishes. I will usually make my ebay near the entrance as well just to narrow the opening a bit and get +1 attack up. Once you have typical MnM force (10 rines 2 meds 2bats) move out (but be weary of burrowlings or 3 sided middle flooding pincer attack of lings and/or lurkers.) You want to attack if possible but at the least keep the lurkers back and delay as much as possible until tanks/vessel come. Use your minimap eyes and be ready to stim, scan, and target anything that comes into the middle. When the zerg pushes you back to your base you should be getting range soon so the bunker/turret can hit lurkers safely or tanks and scan. Once you have tanks (you don't even need seige btw) you can press into the middle and take a base or attack him or his expansion. There are a few different ways to play TvT that are very unusual. TvT - 1)9rax/10depot at bridge. You don't need to complete a full wall as rines can get through anyways. Make rines asap and be ready to micro them with SCV support as well. If he went 2 or more barracks and/or MnM you will need to throw down a bunker near the rax and depot and put your 3-4 rines in it then get your factory. Otherwise skip bunker and make factory first. If he is doing similar build it may be wiser to get tank first but if he went marine build you will probably need 3-4 vultures and SCVs near by bunker to repair before you get tanks. Some may get 1 tank and siege going and immediately get a starport with wraith and dropship for harassment to control as well as mainly building tanks. If you scout port going up (usually by floating rax) it is wise to get an ebay, build a few key turrets, and build a few goliaths with range and +1attack upgrade. If he goes mass wraiths (which is hard from lack of gas) just turtle and make a few more gols, pick off as many tanks as you can and leap frog into a new base or into his main. From here on its typical TvT seige battles with floating buildings, turrets, gollies and drops. If you eventually get 2 or 3 bases BC are very good late game. Another variation of this build that might work is mass vults and mines before tanks, but scans and rines usually are pretty good at stopping it. Its usually best to just gain footing with tanks and expand asap. 2)Alternate build is 8rax/9depot/10rax mass rines and SCVs keep pressuring T, if you get a chance try and send 6 or more scv with all your rines and wrap them around the bunker and smash it, even if you don't win right then it gives you a good advantage and you can kill his depot etc. Just make sure you can defend a counter attack of vultures or a tank. From here on its just like I described in the first option. MnM or rines into tanks. I think I covered most of the basic strategies, If anyone has anything else to add or patch my builds, please send me a PM or whatever. I will be posting this in my blog as well. ======================================================================= As far as imbalance goes on this map:
T>P/T>Z slightly, it is situational and positional as well.
Z>P slightly again, its positional and situational.
Just to reiterate I think terran is only like 56%:44% imbalance, its not blatantly imbalanced. Use your head when terran has tanks all over the place, you have a few options.PS- Surfer4Life is an excellent T player on BB (although BM at times) he usually uses a MnM vulture build that rapes me like 80% of the time PvT. Final Note: Play more Blood Bath people! You have the knowledge now. I find it harder and harder to find decent Blood Bath opponents these days. It makes me a shittier player when I have no challenge. This is why I don't care if you know all my strats, It helps me play better when you know what to do. Makes the game more fun (imo anyways).
Shit man...recommended thread anybody?
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is awesome32269 Posts
Basically in that rep of the wall in TvP any early carrier build is auto gg.
or more storm.
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On August 02 2007 16:34 IntoTheWow wrote:
Basically in that rep of the wall in TvP any early carrier build is auto gg.
or more storm.
I don't think it would work quite well, terrans can drop tanks to smash ur mins or sneak vults into ur base lay mines with ur low unit count.
1 base carrier not very strong either. Good terran will adapt to the carriers even if you do get that far, cloaked wraiths would work perfect cause obs cost alot of gas as well as the carriers and the tech gas involved to get to them.
On August 02 2007 14:39 flag wrote:
I don't think the wall build sucks. The terran can still do a marine + scv or M&M rush which would own any fast tech or early expand. It also stops protoss scouting so you don't know if they are teching or rushing. The downside to the wall is you will be behind econimcally a little if you get harassed while building it
if you are gonna do some secret mnm build with more rax. it would slow it down considerably. I would like to just play like the first 5 minutes tvp with you a billiion times and see how well it does
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Sorry to off topic, but when did blood bath become such a deep indepth map with so much strategy just for it? I never knew anyone still played it, let alone had such amazing strats. GJ Charlie!
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Its always had a somewhat esoteric underground following. That is one of the main reasons why I like playing it so much. Most of these strats are developed by my own experience from 9 years of play.
Its so much more fun when you play so many games and finally you run into a competent BB player. Its like Freud said, when people have less of something they want it even more.
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On August 02 2007 17:51 .kaz wrote:Sorry to off topic, but when did blood bath become such a deep indepth map with so much strategy just for it? I never knew anyone still played it, let alone had such amazing strats. GJ Charlie!
Their used to be a VERY active community on USeast with around 50 people that frequented op bwchat. It was ran by a guy with over 10k games, when he quit it fell apart.
edit - also in the state of major macro whoring maps that everyone plays these days (cough *luna*) it is fun to play a map where you have to think about what you are doing and control your units well.
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On August 02 2007 16:34 IntoTheWow wrote:
Basically in that rep of the wall in TvP any early carrier build is auto gg.
or more storm.
Fundamentally terran cant beat protoss on blood bath so to a certain extent your statement is true. But to a much greater extent, in the event that I saw carriers my BO would change. I am a reactive player and by no means would I just continue to pump vultures +tank.
If the toss gets cars mid game then the terran switches to pure goliath + wraith and pushes in the meantime.
If the toss gets cars early game, since the toss can't see in the terrans base with the wall and the terran can see out with dual scanners (my scanner were bit slower then usual) instead of 4 factories you get 4 rax + 1 factory + 1 starport + acad+stim+range = toss going down.
Edit - oh and the storm... that is really just a terrible idea, did you notice the tanks are spread at a distance that prevents getting more then 1 tank per storm. And it takes 2 storms to get 1 tank. And the storm doesnt work so well against mines or vults with speed +good reaction time.
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Hey its been a while since there was any discussion here with Charlie being at blizzcon and all. Today I played 6 games against someone who was about my skill level and they were decent games. I am ashamed to say that I lost twice to a 5 pool, but one of them ended up in a long game.
Not sure if this proves that my build is bad against a 5 pool, as I only used it once and I microed it very very poorly. Also in the other game I lost I think I was at an advantage early, but I blew it. It shows that I lack experience late game from playing too much BB and not enough real maps.
The protoss v protoss reps aren't very interesting at all, but they are in there for completeness, also I was zerg once because I think protoss v protoss can be boring.
http://www.darrenks.com/temp/dog.zip
PS up for some games today Charlie / AlphaBlend?
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I would love to game later but when I get home I need to finish my new computer! I already put all the new hardware in just need to hook up all the wires and shit. If I get it working I have a lot of installing and updating and shit to do. After all that shit, I can play.
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I'd like to play a few BB games tonight with you guys. Me and charlie go back quite a ways. I'll probably be on west around 8:00 tonight as TwO)ArseniC(
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I got inspired to play some BB by this thread. I've played 30 or so games in the last week. Every time I'm P, I simply keep my scouting probe in the enemy's base, and the moment they have less units than me, I attack with my zealots and literally all my probes. The probes are usually the deciding factor, as they prevent my zealots from being surrounded, take out rines and lings, and raze buildings while my zealots kill workers. The bases are close enough that I've never lost doing this, but it seems cheap to me. Games only last 3-5 minutes. The only players that gave me trouble were Ts trying to wall, but I used my scout to get in the way/harass/manner pylon to stop it. I don't know if my enemies just suck, but all the games went pretty similarly. If they tech, they die. If they pump zealots to match, it becomes a micro war (I usually draw the enemy to mid or my base, and all-in probes to overpower them, after which it's over).
My point is, I just don't understand what all this detailed talk of BOs and counters is about. I can't possibly imagine a BB game reaching carriers. Zerg is the worst on BB - because if they don't just die outright, P can expand everywhere and Z can't harass with ground at all due to mid choke. With P, I even beat a Zerg mineral hacker, because he just couldn't produce enough units to stop me. He had 8 lings and three hatches building when I waltzed in with 2 zealots and 12 probes and annihilated him.Terrans can present a problem if they manage to get the wall up, in which case all that BO stuff and P's inability scout comes into play, but when bases are so close and T needs 3 buildings to wall, it seems so easy to prevent?
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I think a good player would be wise enough to stop an attack of all probes+zealots. However I am not that good at terran or zerg so I can't really back that up (I could try though).
In protoss versus protoss, what you say is basically true, if you get ahead in zealots then you win. That is one reason pvp is kind of boring, but still takes a fair amount of skill to play well.
We should play for some pvp and possibly I can try zerg/terran against your strat too. What is your bnet name and what time is good for you?
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lol @ saying terran can beat protoss at blood bath
protoss just hardcore rushes zeal/forge and it's over
if they wall just harrass it and the zeal comes so fast they're behind huge
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lol FroZ coming out of the woodworks for a bb thread? My friend played you and some other guy in that BB tourney a few years back he said you guys all had maphacks on your desktops and you used that lan glitch where you pick terran and hold the race on zerg and they see terran but you get zerg. Not that maphack really matters so much on bb, but lol. Your team both 5 pooled or something and rushed one to death then lurkered the other guy. it was ZZvTT. I'm not trying to slander you because its just hearsay but its funny to me.
@gamule you literally have to play 100s of bb games before you find a decent challenge these days on public. Play some people out of this thread with your all in strat, It does work pretty good but its not fool proof like you think.
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seems to me a scv rush might work well vs protoss with terran?
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On August 02 2007 10:16 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2007 15:48 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:I won't comment on anything other than the fact that pvp on blood bath is all about 4 gate zealot into cannon at choke then tech If you try to tech vs a good player with excellent micro you will be killed by zealots before it will do you any good 95% of the time. agreed
Disagreed ive beat 4 gate zealot with teching plenty of times goons w/ range can just attack and run all fucking day. A shitload or zealots running around that cant do any damage are pointless.
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On August 10 2007 08:14 TheGreatOne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2007 10:16 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:On July 31 2007 15:48 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:I won't comment on anything other than the fact that pvp on blood bath is all about 4 gate zealot into cannon at choke then tech If you try to tech vs a good player with excellent micro you will be killed by zealots before it will do you any good 95% of the time. agreed Disagreed ive beat 4 gate zealot with teching plenty of times goons w/ range can just attack and run all fucking day. A shitload or zealots running around that cant do any damage are pointless.
Have you ever actually tried 1v1 a decent protoss player on bb? Probably not.
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On August 10 2007 08:32 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2007 08:14 TheGreatOne wrote:On August 02 2007 10:16 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:On July 31 2007 15:48 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:I won't comment on anything other than the fact that pvp on blood bath is all about 4 gate zealot into cannon at choke then tech If you try to tech vs a good player with excellent micro you will be killed by zealots before it will do you any good 95% of the time. agreed Disagreed ive beat 4 gate zealot with teching plenty of times goons w/ range can just attack and run all fucking day. A shitload or zealots running around that cant do any damage are pointless. Have you ever actually tried 1v1 a decent protoss player on bb? Probably not. \
Lmao where do you get your basis that I havent played a good player. I hope its not from what I said then because your the fucking moron if so. A "decent" player would fucking laugh at you for thinking you have to keep producing zealots 15 minutes into the fucking game. Do you not have any concept of timing what-so-ever? 4 GATE PVP OWNS ALL LMAOOO
Btw I have not only "tried" playing protoss players but I've actually seen the victory screen. Something I think you've only seen screenshots of.
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Lmao who the fuck even plays on BB, it's a stupid map. Even my dog can make a map like that. No fun at all, compared to LT or Luna.
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On August 10 2007 13:33 TerransAreWeak wrote:
Lmao who the fuck even plays on BB, it's a stupid map. Even my dog can make a map like that. No fun at all, compared to LT or Luna.
Best poster in the world.
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the art of bb is 5pool...doesnt matter how good u are survival rate is 50/50...
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A "decent" player would fucking laugh at you for thinking you have to keep producing zealots 15 minutes into the fucking game.
A decent player wins BB far before 15 minutes. The bases are so close that workers and early units are extremely imbalanced.
the art of bb is 5pool...doesnt matter how good u are survival rate is 50/50...
lol, 6 lings get shredded by workers alone...
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Have any of you guys played me on BB?
Its all I play on east, happy to see a thread about it.
My id could have been SiMPL or TERRANGENERAL
maybe even `poo or R3FLEX if you have been around a long time.
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i love playing BB +_+ great map -_-
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On August 10 2007 08:44 TheGreatOne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2007 08:32 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On August 10 2007 08:14 TheGreatOne wrote:On August 02 2007 10:16 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:On July 31 2007 15:48 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:I won't comment on anything other than the fact that pvp on blood bath is all about 4 gate zealot into cannon at choke then tech If you try to tech vs a good player with excellent micro you will be killed by zealots before it will do you any good 95% of the time. agreed Disagreed ive beat 4 gate zealot with teching plenty of times goons w/ range can just attack and run all fucking day. A shitload or zealots running around that cant do any damage are pointless. Have you ever actually tried 1v1 a decent protoss player on bb? Probably not. \ Lmao where do you get your basis that I havent played a good player. I hope its not from what I said then because your the fucking moron if so. A "decent" player would fucking laugh at you for thinking you have to keep producing zealots 15 minutes into the fucking game. Do you not have any concept of timing what-so-ever? 4 GATE PVP OWNS ALL LMAOOO Btw I have not only "tried" playing protoss players but I've actually seen the victory screen. Something I think you've only seen screenshots of.
Good job making yourself look like an ass. Your attempt at insulting me by saying I've "only seen screenshots of the victory screen" is pathetic.
If you you can get a cyber core, range, and lots of dragoons out while your opponent is massing zealots without making cannons at your choke (or a huge advantage in the beginning), you are playing against poor players. Period.
Edit: Messed up the quote
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Here is some reps of games I played just today. This guy was all about the rush and cheese, he had pretty good game sense and timing, micro was decent too. 140~ apm no hotkeys for some reason though, which made me think it was someone smurfing.
I really think it was someone smurfing, because they were really bm and kept saying shit like 5pool never fails etc. I stopped it 2/3 times (the only reason I lost to it the first time is because I made depot late then rine came out and got unluckily trapped by lings.)
www.battlereports.com
Rep #'s.
32486 ZvT stop 5 pool and then stop follow-up fast lurker.
32488 ZvZ stop 5 pool with 9pool and even wasting lings to delay him while I make more hatches.
I do make a sunken just because I know hes going to rush but you can actually stop this just by stacking drones and you take a few drone losses then lings come out and still ahead.
I did lose a game to this guy PvP but only because I did the first fatal mistake in bb by not scouting my own base. And PvP is like my worst MU on this map.
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On August 10 2007 17:26 CharlieMurphy wrote:Here is some reps of games I played just today. This guy was all about the rush and cheese, he had pretty good game sense and timing, micro was decent too. 140~ apm no hotkeys for some reason though, which made me think it was someone smurfing. I really think it was someone smurfing, because they were really bm and kept saying shit like 5pool never fails etc. I stopped it 2/3 times (the only reason I lost to it the first time is because I made depot late then rine came out and got unluckily trapped by lings.) www.battlereports.comRep #'s. 32486 ZvT stop 5 pool and then stop follow-up fast lurker. 32487 ZvZ stop 5 pool with 9pool and even wasting lings to delay him while I make more hatches. I do make a sunken just because I know hes going to rush but you can actually stop this just by stacking drones and you take a few drone losses then lings come out and still ahead. I did lose a game to this guy PvP but only because I did the first fatal mistake in bb by not scouting my own base. And PvP is like my worst MU on this map.
You uploaded the same replay twice =/.
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damnit. let me fix it
32488
there
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Thanks, if you have any more, upload them .
Also, i'd like to ask, in the previous replays, do you not wall with rax + depot so it doesn't mess up gas or something?
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On August 10 2007 13:33 TerransAreWeak wrote:
Lmao who the fuck even plays on BB, it's a stupid map. Even my dog can make a map like that. No fun at all, compared to LT or Luna.
..oh the irony
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Belgium9945 Posts
On August 10 2007 08:44 TheGreatOne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2007 08:32 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On August 10 2007 08:14 TheGreatOne wrote:On August 02 2007 10:16 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:On July 31 2007 15:48 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:I won't comment on anything other than the fact that pvp on blood bath is all about 4 gate zealot into cannon at choke then tech If you try to tech vs a good player with excellent micro you will be killed by zealots before it will do you any good 95% of the time. agreed Disagreed ive beat 4 gate zealot with teching plenty of times goons w/ range can just attack and run all fucking day. A shitload or zealots running around that cant do any damage are pointless. Have you ever actually tried 1v1 a decent protoss player on bb? Probably not. \ Lmao where do you get your basis that I havent played a good player. I hope its not from what I said then because your the fucking moron if so. A "decent" player would fucking laugh at you for thinking you have to keep producing zealots 15 minutes into the fucking game. Do you not have any concept of timing what-so-ever? 4 GATE PVP OWNS ALL LMAOOO Btw I have not only "tried" playing protoss players but I've actually seen the victory screen. Something I think you've only seen screenshots of.
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Ok this thread is going downhill, if someone post a strat that you feel sucks, politely say so with reasons and offer to play them to back it up. No amount of flaming back and forth will settle the matter better than a game which each uses their proposed strategy.
My personal opinion is that in PvP if both sides micro equally well, and one side techs and the other doesn't. If the non tech side attacks when the tech side is weakest then the non tech will win. However in a real game if they prevent you from scouting you cannot know when that weakest time is or even if they are teching at all. So basically both strategies are viable but you need to mix it up and be unpredictable.
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On August 10 2007 08:44 TheGreatOne wrote:
A "decent" player would fucking laugh at you for thinking you have to keep producing zealots 15 minutes into the fucking game. Do you not have any concept of timing what-so-ever? 4 GATE PVP OWNS ALL LMAOOO
Not true.
edit: See flag's post.
Also, there isn't much space to maneuver goons on BB, so (Speed)zealots and Reavers are often a better choice.
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On August 11 2007 00:15 Brutalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2007 08:44 TheGreatOne wrote:
A "decent" player would fucking laugh at you for thinking you have to keep producing zealots 15 minutes into the fucking game. Do you not have any concept of timing what-so-ever? 4 GATE PVP OWNS ALL LMAOOO Not true. edit: See flag's post. Also, there isn't much space to maneuver goons on BB, so (Speed)zealots and Reavers are often a better choice.
I can say from personal experience that speed lots and archons works 100000x better than goons. It can also save you gas to get upgrades faster than the goon masser.
Man I wish I still had that rep, one of the best/funnest pvp i ever played on bb.
edit- Flag this thread just needs more replays to shut these idiots up.
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On August 10 2007 16:17 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2007 08:44 TheGreatOne wrote:On August 10 2007 08:32 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On August 10 2007 08:14 TheGreatOne wrote:On August 02 2007 10:16 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:On July 31 2007 15:48 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:I won't comment on anything other than the fact that pvp on blood bath is all about 4 gate zealot into cannon at choke then tech If you try to tech vs a good player with excellent micro you will be killed by zealots before it will do you any good 95% of the time. agreed Disagreed ive beat 4 gate zealot with teching plenty of times goons w/ range can just attack and run all fucking day. A shitload or zealots running around that cant do any damage are pointless. Have you ever actually tried 1v1 a decent protoss player on bb? Probably not. \ Lmao where do you get your basis that I havent played a good player. I hope its not from what I said then because your the fucking moron if so. A "decent" player would fucking laugh at you for thinking you have to keep producing zealots 15 minutes into the fucking game. Do you not have any concept of timing what-so-ever? 4 GATE PVP OWNS ALL LMAOOO Btw I have not only "tried" playing protoss players but I've actually seen the victory screen. Something I think you've only seen screenshots of. Good job making yourself look like an ass. Your attempt at insulting me by saying I've "only seen screenshots of the victory screen" is pathetic. If you you can get a cyber core, range, and lots of dragoons out while your opponent is massing zealots without making cannons at your choke (or a huge advantage in the beginning), you are playing against poor players. Period. Edit: Messed up the quote
So all the good players get cannons just to tech? Looks like your playing the wrong players, not me bud. All you have to do is wall your entrance with zealots then its safe to tech. If they try to attack they will just lose more than you and then you can win. Please play this fucking map before you ramble on about shit you dont even know or understand.
I just dont understand how these people think 4 gate is viable or even works against good players. I just get ranged goons and continue to mix in zealots and beat it every time with good micro.
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On August 11 2007 00:03 flag wrote:
Ok this thread is going downhill, if someone post a strat that you feel sucks, politely say so with reasons and offer to play them to back it up. No amount of flaming back and forth will settle the matter better than a game which each uses their proposed strategy.
My personal opinion is that in PvP if both sides micro equally well, and one side techs and the other doesn't. If the non tech side attacks when the tech side is weakest then the non tech will win. However in a real game if they prevent you from scouting you cannot know when that weakest time is or even if they are teching at all. So basically both strategies are viable but you need to mix it up and be unpredictable.
By the time you get enough zealots to safely wall and secure your entrance your usually safe to tech. You dont need no cannons or 30 zealots just to tech lol. If they attack the wall you will be at even zealots regardless if they have 4 gate and you only have 3. They might have a couple more but it wont matter because they had to waste money on more gateways while you could continue to pump zealots. Then they have to attack the wall and its pretty basic to hold your choke. Then I cant even understand how people would think its still viable to keep pumping zealots while the other person techs they will just lose the game eventually no matter what.
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GreatOne I do not believe you are safe just because you make a wall. If you do not belive me msg me (loud-assassin) for game, I'm on west right now gogo.
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thegreatone, play murphy?
btw murphy, when you 9 pooled and he 6 pooled and you got almost all his lings. why didnt u sunk at gas? you instead charged his sunken..
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Im not saying you're totally safe I mean you have to adapt to what they're doing. I can't play right now im on a computer that has no sc installed + I haven't played in a few months but here in a week I will start playing again.
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On August 12 2007 07:57 Jim wrote:
thegreatone, play murphy?
btw murphy, when you 9 pooled and he 6 pooled and you got almost all his lings. why didnt u sunk at gas? you instead charged his sunken..
he actually 5 pooled and I did that just to illustrate how much stronger it is, I can afford to waste units.
PS- Great one are you by any chance Jared The Great?
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Nah thats not me, was he a user on here or on battle.net ?
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On August 12 2007 08:18 TheGreatOne wrote:
Nah thats not me, was he a user on here or on battle.net ?
He was on b.net
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I never played all that much BB but a strat I loved with toss that rarely ever lost is no 9th probe two gate. Halt probe production after 8th probe. Build pylon around 7 1/2 probe then drop one gate, send probe to minerals, then pull one probe and build 2nd gate. This actually allows for transition into core/goons as well. You can start probe production again after 18/18 zealots but you usually don't need to if you have good micro the game will be over.
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So you use an 8/8 gate build isntead of 9/10? Can you sustain constant zealot production though if your initial zealots are not enough?
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That build sounds like shit, your only gonna have 7 probes mining unless you don't scout, not to mention every 4 zealots you need to make a pylon. No way you can sustain that economy.
The reason why you never lost is just due to lack of good opponents.
Like shit I used to do this 7 pool build like every game and i rarely lost:
7pool
+3 drones
when pool is at like 600 I would make extractor and a colony.
make 2 sets of lings cancel extractor (and sunk if i didn't need it, but usually i just kept it).
lord
every free larva = lings
300 = offensive hatch
sunkens at enemy base with lings was gg most of the time.
yea, its fun to do, but its a shitty build and it would still probably work on like 70% of pub games.
Most of you would probably agree with me that you would crush this build.
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I find the best builds to do pvp are either 9/12 or 10/12 if you dont get a semi-early zealot that first zealot will kill probes and put you behind.
That 8/8 gate build sounds utterly retarded, if I scouted it I would just put up a gate at 9 or 10 and just be ahead with probes.
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there is strats in blood bath??? wtf
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On August 13 2007 11:58 Future wrote:
there is strats in blood bath??? wtf
1a2a3a4a5a6a7a Isn't the only strat that exists in starcraft.
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Yo Darkness!!
DAHKNESS...
We should try playing some BB together. PM meeeeeeee
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Thegreatone, BB is really small and in PvP there is constant action. Your enemy isnt going to sit in his base while you get a few zealots and make a wall, then tech. Hes going to start pressuring you with his first zealot, ESPECIALLY if he plans to go 3-4 gate zealots. I mean, why would someone go 4 gate zealots, then sit on his ass while you wall and tech? If he has to retreat, he will retreat only a couple of inches to see if you follow. If you dont, he will move back towards you. You wont get the time to make a good wall vs a good player without taking damage, and if he goes more gates while you went tech, you're going to lose.
PvP blood bath is about zealot micro and probe cutting in the start. When one guy gains an advantage, he can tech. But you're not going to be able to go two gate zealots into goons vs a hardcore zealot rusher with good micro and nonstop pressure.
I'd like to see some replays of you now, because its pretty obvious you've only played less than average pub people.
If you're really serious about 2 gate zealots holding off 4 gate zealots on BB vs a person of equal micro, and someone who can play at a fast pace, you're stupid.
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Gandalf is quite correct. I've played one of similar skill in PvP on BB and it came down to this:
- At first, both go hardcore zealot from 2 gates, then 3, then 4
- At some point, my enemy thinks it's safe to tech. He gets cycore, gas, and citadel
- I pump more drones and add 1 or 2 more gates and get even more zealots
- He has to retreat his zealots into his base because I have more because he's teching
- From then on, I always see what he's doing, because my zealots are always in his base scouting/harassing
- He starts to build a templar archive, probably to build DTs, which would have raped me
- I go all-in and overwhelm him with superior zealot numbers. I didn't even need to micro, just A-click. The templar archive was taken out first
Note that this was really pure slowzeal without any upgrades. Very simple, but this is what works in PvP on BB. As soon as one player starts to tech, the other one can overpower him. As soon as the other player is getting less zealots than you, you'll know that he starts to tech, so exploit his weakness with a timed attack.
It is only safe to tech if you already gained an advantage somehow (e.g. if you managed to kill a few probes or if you killed more zealots than you lost).
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On August 14 2007 05:01 Brutalisk wrote:
Gandalf is quite correct. I've played one of similar skill in PvP on BB and it came down to this:
- At first, both go hardcore zealot from 2 gates, then 3, then 4
- At some point, my enemy thinks it's safe to tech. He gets cycore, gas, and citadel
- I pump more drones and add 1 or 2 more gates and get even more zealots
- He has to retreat his zealots into his base because I have more because he's teching
- From then on, I always see what he's doing, because my zealots are always in his base scouting/harassing
- He starts to build a templar archive, probably to build DTs, which would have raped me
- I go all-in and overwhelm him with superior zealot numbers. I didn't even need to micro, just A-click. The templar archive was taken out first
Note that this was really pure slowzeal without any upgrades. Very simple, but this is what works in PvP on BB. As soon as one player starts to tech, the other one can overpower him. As soon as the other player is getting less zealots than you, you'll know that he starts to tech, so exploit his weakness with a timed attack.
It is only safe to tech if you already gained an advantage somehow (e.g. if you managed to kill a few probes or if you killed more zealots than you lost).
You are correct to an extent of what the terrain allows, once you both have like 30 zealots or whatever the bridge becomes a standoff and you both should tech at this point. Even just a forge tech and a canon behind the 30 zealots is brutal.
PS- I'm glad to see Great One got a strat forum ban.
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In PvP, I've found that the attacking player is open to a critical vulnerability. If his zealots come in your base, use your probes to help kill them. Even a 1 or 2 zealot advantage is GG, because you can just walk in his base now with probes and end it.
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I used to play blood bath. A lot. Then I got a job.
I also used to post on this site. A lot. Then I got banned.
Anyways, Ive discovered some things too:
Terran the best race?
Terran in theory is the best race, but if you pick T - the opponent will pick P and it can be hard vs someone DECENT.
He will 2gate+photon you! 2gate+photon rush is hard to stop if executed well.
You might think, that 1 gate + cannons is faster, but a good terran player will move around his quarter of the map in order to find the cannons. In addition, 1 gate wont give you enough zealots (he is likely to build a bunker if you succeed in making the pylon).
Moreover, you can even survive to tanks and lose to the rush (happened to me few times), because if the protoss is smart, he
A smart protoss doesnt want to end the game RIGHT NOW, but he just rushes you in order to kill as many scvs as possible and too slow you down as possible (eg. destroy depots/prevent from building new, destroy the gas). He isnt cutting his probes production, unless necessarry.
After the rush, the protoss will go for expo+DTs in order to grab "center" - and you will have around 3 scans when you come out (I assume you go mnm). You need to build a turret in order to see his ninjas.
If you somehow managed to go 2fact and have vultures, you need to abuse mines or die- but he is likely to use a mixture of zealots and DTs to stop the vultures, but it should be easy. Noone ever managed to get 2fact tanks vs me, because I would just abuse goon range+zealots vs his single bunker (perhaps he would build more, so I could expand)
PvT
PvT is basically about choking the terran - when he comes out, you need to have the other expo (some people take an "inland" expo, but I never understood it, just as I didnt understand "inland empire". althouth the first works pretty well. the latter sucked)
then you go carriers. warning, mnm can own your carriers :-)
anyway, then you go HT + perhaps carriers
He will come out and mnm blurbs are TOUGH without storm, even when you go 3gate zeal+range goon.
Zeal + range goon however, can work if you us the simple 2 gate. While using this build, you are tryng to destroy his addon in the factory. He (she? lol, never) is screwed without siege.
Ive tried some reaver builds PvT, but they dont work too well still very hard - when you have the reaver he is likely to have tanks - and tanks +mnm will stop your reavers cold
TvP
what about TvP?
all my strats begin either with 8 rax, or 8 depot (9/10 rax didnt seem to work for some strange reason, although I never liked it).
You can place your buildings at the choke - in order to make a "wall", to which you later add a bunker (always make the bunker the furthest to thy opponent, because ranged goons will kill a depot easy). The wall consists of 1 bunker, 1 rax and one depot - the problem is, that he might run through it any day. The question is, WHEN. If he is smart, he will attack when he has 3-4 zealots - that's why you need to block the hot gates with your precious scvs. He can still get through (for aiuuurrr!). If you are good at micro you should survive with minimal losses and pretty nice block vs goons and DTs (not to mention a potential counter with firebats)
The "wall" also helps vs zeal+goon and is the best option vs 2gate+photons, since he cant build the photons (and you dont need that many MnM - and can get the tanks faster, so your expo will be faster. Dont forget to build some Mnm though. They are necessary, if he goes zeal+goon frenzy)
The alternative is the standard 8rax, depot, bunker,rax.
I dont recommend skipping the bunker, but some people manage to do it (I dont know, Nada or something). If you see him skip his bunker (assuming you play P) dont be stupid. Wait till you have enough zealots, take half of your probes.. anyway, just take your zealots and kill as much as you can. (first attack with 2-3, not a single one - because it will get surrounded and owned, then 4-6 zealots)
If the protoss is mega stupid, you can bunker rush him. (sometimes works wonders in Z+T vs P+P)
Anyway, if you go bio - you add medics. The protoss will either go zeal+goon, or zeal+cannon, because at one point firebats/marines with medics tear through pure zealots
If you somehow scout him going cannons, try to catch him, while he is building the pylons at the choke - he has to invest some money in them (while you nonstop build your forces) and you have a chance of breaking his defense (firebats ftw). Or you just piss him off.
Anyway, there is a small time window, when you can get him, if he doesnt have many goons or lacks cannons (he is probably waiting for DTs). If you decide to attack - your firebats (make them!) should stim and run into his probes.. if possible
So you go your 2 rax, medics, +1 armor route - what now? DTs might be coming. Reaver if he is stupid. Goon+zeal (add 3rd rax vs it)
and you go 1fact tank (dont build that many medics - the gas will be needed later for the vessel/tanks). You should try to secure an expo. Perhaps bunker it. Perhaps your +1 just ended so fly with the ebay, so your tanks at least secure the choke and kill his probe(s) - who are trying to get there.
There is a problem, he made his dts and is working on his expo - while you have like 3 scanns. A "timing rush" to vessel definitely wont work.
You just should push out and use the 3-4 scans to secure a choke and place turrets there. He will furiously counter. It's his only chance.
What else can I write - everyone can play terran, just try to secure another choke and abuse tank range
8 tanks + mnm group (spread due to storm) and he cant touch you - while you slowly tech.
Attacking will be hard (storm!), but you should win
1rax
I have never seen anyone go 1rax and survive vs 2gate+photon
not terran? so random?
So, if we cant pick terran (beacause protoss own them), what do we do?
We pick RANDOM.
Random is a funny race. Koreans hate it and leave the game (instant win), you always get the worst spot and matchup, your opponent cant have a "general build order" (eg. bunker rush vs zerg on Lt, 3 years ago was standard, with a dropship follow up, wonder why it doesnt work now). He has to get a "general" BO, which is predictable, or he gets screwed.
We have ZvP, ZvT, ZvZ, PvZ, PvP and TvZ to go (I think Ive written enough on PvT/TvP)
what happens when we get rP
Basically, if the opponent went random too, we go 9/10gate (or even 9/9) - the odds say he is zerg. If he is a good zerg, he will micro LIKE HELL. You cant lose probes. You can lose mining time, but you cant afford to lose your probes. I dont have the time to provide you with proper screenshots, but you have to plan your base tight.
After around 5-6 zealots you add cannons. IMO you NEED them vs a good zerg, otherwise, he will micro so well, that he will destroy one of your gateways.
After 2 cannons are up and the +1 is research you should add the third gate and tech to DTs. In the meantime you pressure him. Try to block his ramp and run around the map (odds say he will have hydras with speed - so you need a 3rd cannon (smart placement -
1 in minerals, one to stop hydras)) - perhaps try cannoning your enterance, his entrance (you will lose it) or an exp.
Basically (try to) prevent him from exping. Zeal+dt with goons later vs lurkers/hydras should fight all the time. Prepare for FIERCE battles. Upgrade armor just after the attack - upgrades are very important (I know it is bloodbath). Prepare to run out of minerals (!) if the game is tough - because neighter of you will exp.
Anyway, mix an archon if he doesnt make that many hydras - these bubbles are good vs lurkers (muta ofc) and lings
However, your precious bubbles have to survive though to be efficient. Zealots live for aiur.
the zerg will have 4 aims
1) to expand
2) to not let you expand
3) to get lurkers at the center (you need obs)
4) to get that fierce ling upgrade which will make his lings shred everything in seconds
That's why you expand with cannons. Dont be too greedy, you cant have two expands. He will expand too.
You will make more goons and more HTs. Try to camp a bit (or rather you will have to, because 100 lings can come in) - he will send EVERYTHING he has in order to get you. 5 cannons per choke are nothing! but I recommend to build them (probably you will your whole army each battler - yet the will cannons survive)
You just need to survive, he will run out of steam soon.
To end the game just mass zeal+goon+ht (and the ocassional obs, which should come "in the right time" - which depends on the game)
rPvP
So we have started with our 9/10 (9/11? 9/12 if you feel ballsy)
We dont scout (very, very important - if he went P - you need the mining time, if he went z - it wont help that you see the lings comming - you just need the minerals/zealots; if he went T - he is likely to scout).
We scout with the zealot (same as RvR)
The first zealot is used to kill the enemy probes. Or at least try to do so. PvP is basically zealot micro vs zealot micro + a gamble with builds.
3rd gate is a nice strat.
Good players can do pretty well with 2 gate goon, but a 3 gate can catch them at one point.
kamikaze go for 4gate all-in and cut their probes production (never knew how to execute it, but it works wonders)
Reavers are nice - but on LT, however I try to add them later (not too early).
Dont forget about cannons - many games have ended due to the irritating DTs.
Never underinvest in forces, but dont tech too slow either
(I think this advice is so useful.. that I kept it during rereading, due to it's blunt stupidity)
ZvR
At the beginning you scout with lord. How to scout properly?
If you start at bottom left (for example), send the lord at the top and a bit right, so you can adjust his way. Try to make them not see you. You should see them first anyway.
Then leave your ovie at the "dead spot". The dead spots allow you to see his marines - and they cant shoot you. However if he is good, he can manage to get you (especially when he gets range)
Anyway in RzvR you are afraid of the 5pool. 8 pool stops it dead. 9 pool sometimes (not always)
ZvZ
you start with your 8pool and proceed for a 10/9
then ovie/hatch
I dont make gas that fast, I like to have the drones - you dont need ling speed that much at the beginning, but it's recommended later. Basically it's like mass lings, vs mass lings.
If he techs too fast, you can kill him with 3 (2) hatch ling.
Dont make sunkens - they arent too good, but you can make one and it will allow you for a fast 3hatch.
Then you follow with hydras. hydras? wtf?
Yes, hydras. They are nice. Especially with +1 carapace. They are like some strange sort of mnm and in big groups they tear through sunkens and lings in the same way. The idea of hydras, is to prevent him from exping (!) - while you tech to your precious lurkers.
He will micro his mutas well - so you need spores near drones perhaps and the hydras stand over the lurkers (pure muta wont stop them). You just camp at the center of the map. Dont be too greedy. Dont exp too fast. Remember that he will try to get your drones.
After some time, you can even make some scourge, or muta of your own, to kill some of his drones.
2hatch muta
2hatch muta has one big problem - not enough gas, mutas are cool etc -but he will mimic you and it will either go scourge/ling or hydra/ling.
Scourge/ling vs scourge/ling is like standard and bloody. Just get this 1-2 drones advantage.
But what if he goes hydras? Slowly tech to lurkers.
1hatch muta is the worst strat ever, you will get ling+sunken rushed. btw ling+sunken rush the newbs who 12 pool.
If you ever decide to 12pool, you need a sunken and it needs to be placed in a smart way, so that it covers your whole creep (expect an offensive sunken otherwise)
ZvrP
we start with our 8 pool. 10/9 follow up and some initial ling harrass here and there - but just with 6 lings.
A sunken at one point, because the zerg can try to go low on lings (warning - when he has like 5 zealots he could take all the probes +2new zealots and own you - but it can also happen if you dont make that many lings). And you simply tech to lurkers. Or hydras.
Just prevent him from exping at all costs. Expect heavy losses at center and dont chase him back into his base - cannons wait there.
Place your lurkers at the center and slowly grab an expansion. Beware of DTs (and those irritating corairs - yes, I build them sometimes).
Also expect him to throw a hard offense consisiting of +1/+1 army of zealots+goons.
ZvP
If he picks P, you are in heaven.
You can:
7pool-> attack the pylon and kill it (dont expect to win the game here) -> proceed to harrass him -> go SPEED hydra (he cant get speed zealots fast, while speed hydras are easy to get!)
Just make him build cannons and try to get lurkers asap to grab the center (or kill his probes). Then you can exp (even two times). Despite the heavy losses at the beginning, he will break in the center (you simply dont have enough lurkers due to low gas - and slow mining since the beginning, it's not ZvT, where you start mining with 3 drones asap) - so prepare sunkens in main and the expansion(s) perhaps.
12pool. You need a sunken. Proceed as usual.
9pool/hatch. Typical.
9pool speed - harras, harras, harras. If you are good you win straight way. He needs cannons. Mass lings, not drones (but dont underinvest, because he is playing to survive - and constantly making probes).
Never stand still - you have to harras. However DONT lose your lings or exchange them for zealots (only zealot). Every ling lost - means that you have to build more of them, instead of drones - you dont have enough larvae for both army and drones.
If you lose too many lings, he will come out. They usually come out when there are 6-7 zealots and can take few probes - and you need 1 more sunken!
ZvT
That's where I lose. I used to win, but it was more like 50/50.
With the initial 6 lings try to get the scv building the depot.
If you decide to get speed, or more than 6 lings (I dont like it, but it works well.. vs me) you can kill more scvs here and there (especially the ones building the rafinnery).
Attack here and there, but dont get near the bunker - you shouldnt waste your lings, because at some point (after 2nd hatch, gas), he will be able to move out with scvs + marines. You are like "omg 8 lings", so perhaps remain greedy but have a sunken. If you spawned on top left, you're fucked, because you cant make the sunken defeand both the drones (if he is smart he will go behind minerals) and the gas/hatch.
In ZvT, you are teching to your lurkers. Mass lings have always failed for me, but Ive heard it can work.
I just try to use ling+lurker (from early gas, 3 drones at gas, at the cost of the economy).
I invented my strat called the "wall of death".
In the past, you could use 3 lurkers and 8 lings to kill some marines. Now you need at least 6 lurkers. These fucking slay_my_boxer's are everywhere. They kill 3 lurkers easy, but they cant kill 6 (7 is optimal, but you wont have the gas according to my "move-out" calculations).
Basically you try to get to the center and then grab the exp asap - because soon he will have the tanks. First send the lings, then the wall of death (form a line of lurkers). Run them near the marines and burrow. It should work. With some losses.
Move your army to the center. Expect BLOODY battles of lurker/ling vs mnm. And a tank. Move the wounded lurkers back and form a crescent. He cant attack all of them, with his single tanks.
At some point try to get his tanks perhaps, when he tries to get you (basically you formed a trap after all). Tanks are your main opponents (I expect some lurkers will survive to stop the MnM). Perhaps send kamikaze ling squads?
Wen I was good, I used to win such battles, but then I got old and my hands are made of wood now.
Later you might need defilers to enter his base. Plague is better.
And 120 guardians etc
TvZ
2barracks and win
Somewhere on this forum (this thread?) someone has showed nearly the same ways I use, while building my base (except of the bottom right, where I put the depot on the place of the pylon and top left, where I put both depots north)
TvZ is simple. You just make two barracks (preferably, 8rax, depot, bunker, barracks because you expect early pool) and at some point another bunker at your choke, just to be safe.
You should win, just play safe (but not cowardly) and try not to lose your tanks. There are a lot of ways of fucking him up, if you have good micro.
If he has a bad location - aka top left, just run your army after his minerals).
If he is at bottom right, the odds say, he build two hatcheries next to each other - or even three. When I play zerg I do the same and I build sunkens to the hatcheries, but you can always attack the buildings from the left side/bottom.
Boxer tricks (aka boxer vs yellow - bunker rush on island map) work
pretty well. Ok, not the bunker rushes, but scv+marine rushes.
Especially when the zerg goes 0 sunkens (or doesnt have speed)
TvT
my secret strat:
depot near choke, barracks, bunker if needed (probably needed, many people go 2 rax) - 2 marines is enough for a long time, but later you need 4 if he pumps marines nonstop. Tech to tanks like mad man.
Two fact tanks.
Then two port cattlebruisers. Yes, first you try to secure the center with tanks, then piss him off with your 2-4 wraiths (basically grab the center and an expo) then piss him off even more with cattlebruisers.
works wonders, if they dont expect it
and it's so incredibly funny
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
this topic might hold the record in terms of most super long posts that aren't all by the OP
(though the eighty thousand questions ZvZ topic is a serious contender ;D)
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I can understand how you were banned drop.
I read the first section and noticed many crappy advices so I stopped reading.
Here is a few key points "Random is a funny race. Koreans hate it and leave the game (instant win), "
you mean worthless draw?
"If the protoss is mega stupid, you can bunker rush him."
Duh? If the player sucks you can kill them with anything. Whats new?
oh man, i just skimmed through the rest and you actually advocate sairs? pfft
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TheGreatOne wrote this in his post (first one on page 5 I think):
"If they attack the wall you will be at even zealots regardless if they have 4 gate and you only have 2 or 3."
After my post, he edited it to read this:
"If they attack the wall you will be at even zealots regardless if they have 4 gate and you only have 3."
Then he PMed me this:
"You say some of the most obvious shit ive ever read on a strat forum. Anyways when did I fucking say that I would sit in my base and tech of course there is going to be zealot battles and pressure. Thats just fucking common sense lmao. When did I say that 2 gate will hold off 4 gate? I said 2 OR 3 gate can hold it depending on what they're doing.
I even said that the pressure begins with the first zealot already so I dont know why your saying that again. If you think you cant tech pvp on small maps with short distances watch some games on requiem and cultivation period. Pros dont go 4 gate zealot and refuse to tech. You dont always need a advantage to tech because if its a stalemate game someone has to tech in the first place.
You think its pretty obvious that I havent played anyone good? I have beat clawson 3-0 pvp on bloodbath and ive beat a few canadian protoss players from [Light]."
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just ignore it
someone should play this guy (pvp) btw.
pvp is like my worst mu on bb so I'm not up to it.
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ill play i own at BB and charlie knows it from playin me
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inept goes by the name Lnept on bnet west, I remember playing him way back on East too and I think he frequented Op bwchat if I remember correctly.
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yea he knows me from broodwarmaps.net i think...im inept everywhere
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Well I've got a dozen or so decent replays now, I got my ass handed to me yesterday like 6-0 by Wheremydogsat (zerg). I dunno if it was just my bad playing that day or what, none the less hes good.
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United States1967 Posts
On August 22 2007 18:25 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Well I've got a dozen or so decent replays now, I got my ass handed to me yesterday like 6-0 by Wheremydogsat (zerg). I dunno if it was just my bad playing that day or what, none the less hes good.
woot, upload them somewhere!
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Might be some non-bb reps in there but whatever.
There is a couple 2v2s and an FFA in there.
I didn't watch all the games and most the reps are 1.15.0 so I don't know if they work with new patch.
http://limitedgaming.com/files/21/Replays.rar
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On August 22 2007 21:26 CharlieMurphy wrote:Might be some non-bb reps in there but whatever. There is a couple 2v2s and an FFA in there. I didn't watch all the games and most the reps are 1.15.0 so I don't know if they work with new patch. http://limitedgaming.com/files/21/Replays.rar
I watched and enjoyed all these replays. Thanx.
I have one question about your TvP though: Do you have to wall in to survive, or were you just trying that out? It seems that, when you wall in against a good protoss player, a few things happen:
1) You're protected from Zealots, forcing P to tech to Dragoons immediately
2) You have the chance to tech to vultures, and eventually tanks
3) P has free reign of the rest of the map
It just seems like Protoss techs up quite a bit cheaper and faster (Cybernetics for 200, then start pumping Dragoons and research range), while your next tech step is slower and more expensive (Factory for 200/100, then machine shop, then Spider mines and Siege mode).
Also, the Protoss inevitably expands before you in these matchups.
Watching those games, if I were playing PvT against you, and I saw you wall in, I would immediately take another quarter of the map.
Any thoughts?
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No I do not have to wall in to survive, its justs easier/safer imo.
I can do 1 rax bunk near cc and tech just as easily but zealots will be harassing me the whole time.
Regular 2-3 rax M&MF works pretty well too.
Yea, when I start a wall I expect at least 1 of 4 things:
Probe harass making pylon, stealing gas, whatever to slow my wall down.
Zealot rush on a depot or whatever to try break in early.
Tech to DT, Drop, Reaver.
Expand with mostly goon to obs.
The best/safest option for P is to expand. Normally Protoss is assumed to have more bases than terran (on most maps), Its not like its game over when they have the base up.
I usually get a tank, but spider mines and vults first. So in case the toss does go super fast expo I can get in there before canons or obs.
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On August 25 2007 14:32 Dromar wrote:I watched and enjoyed all these replays. Thanx. I have one question about your TvP though: Do you have to wall in to survive, or were you just trying that out? It seems that, when you wall in against a good protoss player, a few things happen: 1) You're protected from Zealots, forcing P to tech to Dragoons immediately 2) You have the chance to tech to vultures, and eventually tanks 3) P has free reign of the rest of the map It just seems like Protoss techs up quite a bit cheaper and faster (Cybernetics for 200, then start pumping Dragoons and research range), while your next tech step is slower and more expensive (Factory for 200/100, then machine shop, then Spider mines and Siege mode). Also, the Protoss inevitably expands before you in these matchups. Watching those games, if I were playing PvT against you, and I saw you wall in, I would immediately take another quarter of the map. Any thoughts?
I don't necessarily think it is GG if protoss has expo just as Spor said. I played a TvP just last night, I beat a triple expoed toss, he had the whole map. The thing about the wall strat is it gives the terran control in a weird way.
Depending on what you scout with your lifted ebay you can do a few things:
dual CC into 4-5 factory with dual scanner
dual CC into single factory (for tanks) with 5-6 raxes (this is to counter fast carriers) with dual scanner
single CC with 2 factory rush or single CC MM rush
if you realize the protoss immediately expoed without units or only a few a 2nd barracks hidden behind your wall or even 2 pumping rines will overwhelm the protoss.
It really keeps the protoss guessing, you generally have a good idea what he has through inductive and deductive reasoning, but all he can see is your bunker.
edit - seeing as how most of bnet is maphacking maybe deception isn't the best idea.
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u guys realize that protoss always beats terran in 5 mins if played correctly right?
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United States37500 Posts
No, I didn't know. How does P win T in 5 mins, FroZ?
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oh man just noticed this thread...off topic but
simpl=R3FLEX from old tland/nohunters??? if so hi <-- S[o]Lo)Legit :D~!
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On August 26 2007 05:25 FroZZoR wrote:
u guys realize that protoss always beats terran in 5 mins if played correctly right?
Solid gold, close the thread, the map has been solved.
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as long as terran bunkers at choke on 4th marine zealot rush in shouldnt be a problem. you also have to build 1 depot to clog up entrance a bit so they dont run by. then you have to scout goon range or dt and tech accordingly. eventually youll have vulture+tank+scan but TvP on BB is hard if your opponent is good
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That's always satisfying. DT and speedlots FTW.
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Your sister is always satisfying. Blonde and hot FTW.
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wp first game. second didnt work for me.
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Why is CharlieMurphy aka BloodBath talking here so much, when there are probably 50 BB players I know easily beat him one handed?
He has around 80 apm and Im like 30-1 vs him. I dont even talk that much. Watch the replay and you will understand.
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United Arab Emirates5091 Posts
On August 26 2007 05:25 FroZZoR wrote:
u guys realize that protoss always beats terran in 5 mins if played correctly right?
this is the funniest thing i've heard in a week
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ke422azn3 , You really make a good impression of yourself coming in here misquoting shit and then claiming you are the best player.. Yet you cannot even find the 'edit post' button and you make 15 posts in a row.
btw mind telling anyone what version those reps are? You know they don't work with new patches right?
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Charlie is better then you in every way ke he doesn't need to hack.
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On September 03 2007 23:25 Hittegods wrote:
Have fun in disneyland.
I finnally figured out what this disney land joke means.
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On September 03 2007 23:25 Hittegods wrote:
Have fun in disneyland.
Lol.
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On August 26 2007 05:25 FroZZoR wrote:
u guys realize that protoss always beats terran in 5 mins if played correctly right? i thought it was the other way around
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On September 04 2007 10:01 alphablend wrote:
Charlie is better then you in every way ke he doesn't need to hack.
Charlie can not beat me if his life depended on it. Dude. Wisper me ke422azn2 useast, lets set up a 1v1 time.
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On September 04 2007 04:05 CharlieMurphy wrote:
ke422azn3 , You really make a good impression of yourself coming in here misquoting shit and then claiming you are the best player.. Yet you cannot even find the 'edit post' button and you make 15 posts in a row.
btw mind telling anyone what version those reps are? You know they don't work with new patches right?
RExplorer says they're 1.10. But apparently I don't have storm.dll, so I can't watch old replays.
BTW, I'm pretty busy, but I'm willing to play some BB against you sometime.
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How the fuck is this troll not banned yet? It pisses me off everytime I read his posts without a nuke icon above him.
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On September 04 2007 22:53 Aphelion wrote:
How the fuck is this troll not banned yet? It pisses me off everytime I read his posts without a nuke icon above him.
Ill tell you what. Beat me 1v1 on bloodbath, ill never post here again.
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I guess they are allowing him to post until some one shuts him up?
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On September 05 2007 02:28 ke422azn3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2007 22:53 Aphelion wrote:
How the fuck is this troll not banned yet? It pisses me off everytime I read his posts without a nuke icon above him. Ill tell you what. Beat me 1v1 on bloodbath, ill never post here again. I haven't 1v1ed in a while, let alone on blood bath, but I'll give it a shot. Message FightAsBlind on west for a game.
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none of you would beat ke422 anyway. even if he is a douchebag and all and USED to hack I trained my PvT a lot with him and hes very good. wouldnt have the PvT on bloodbath I do now without him.
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On September 05 2007 07:20 inept. wrote:
none of you would beat ke422 anyway. even if he is a douchebag and all and USED to hack I trained my PvT a lot with him and hes very good. wouldnt have the PvT on bloodbath I do now without him.
The fact that you think he's good doesn't actually make him better than the people telling him he sucks...I played him back in the day when he trolled SC forums on battle.net and I molested him badly.
edit: This bringing back some memories, like Ke's website with his pics of him in his skintight biking shorts, him posting tons of pics of his "girlfriend" on the SC forums (sure she loves that, being bragged about and ogled by nerds online), bragging about 150 mile bike rides and his amazing endurance (pot-belly was irrelevant apparently).
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ke422azn, I've played you BloodBath before and I know you are a good player, but the question is do you still hack?
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On July 31 2007 08:33 Kwark wrote:
Is BB really balanced?
I've always believed the low mineral expos favour Terran and Zerg because they can move their CC or lay extra hatches where they like. It's a much larger investment for the P. Also the ability to snipe those minerals using tanks or guardians makes life difficult for protoss. Tank pushes seem near unstoppable late game because the P is forced to charge his entire army through a choke from which he can be hit by tanks in the enemy main. But I've only played low level blood bath.
Unfortunately nothing Blizzard made except several Ladder maps were imbalanced 
But IMO Blood Bath was never really MEANT to be a long game; I highly doubt anybody would go through a normal game and get Guardians :O
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img164.echo.cx/img164/3727/2terranbase5zf.jpg)
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