On September 26 2013 06:33 Squat wrote:
Mines aren't nearly as big a part of TvP as they are in TvZ.
Mines aren't nearly as big a part of TvP as they are in TvZ.
I'm reasonably sure he was being sarcastic
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On September 26 2013 06:33 Squat wrote: Show nested quote + On September 26 2013 05:52 willoc wrote: On September 26 2013 05:39 Squat wrote: I like that they're sticking to their guns with the widow mine nerf. It might not be popular, but it's likely necessary, can't just buff zerg until TvZ is fine, it would just break PvZ. Following that reasoning, it will break TvP no? Mines aren't nearly as big a part of TvP as they are in TvZ. I'm reasonably sure he was being sarcastic | ||
Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
On September 26 2013 06:29 Everlong wrote: So you have to build more Missile Turrets (say 3), which is 300 minerals. Well, good luck defending some well thought Warpgate/Immortal bust.. Or Voidray allin, or you know, Blink allin, the list goes on.. I feel the need to point out the opportunity cost of mining for those 3 mineral turrets, which tacks on about 60 minerals of lost mining time, considering the time it takes to move the SCV into position to build it. So about 360 minerals is a better way of thinking of the cost. Reducing the missile turret to 75 minerals would definitely soften the cost of preparing for air-based protoss attacks, but it might also encourage building even more turrets that shut down drops in TvT, which would be sad. Balancing is hard I wish that the Widow Mine kept its splash radius, but had a slightly (think 33% or so) slower projectile. This wouldn't make those exciting huge hits any less dramatic for the observer, but would more greatly enable an astute zerg player to micro lings and banelings that have been targeted away from the pack. Or better yet, straight into clumps of terran bio. This seems like a very reasonable thing to test, and I wish Blizzard would try it. | ||
awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
I hate to rain on the party of everyone who is excited about the oracle, but this acceleration and speed buff actually means that you literally can't run your workers away from them, ever. Before there was room for an oracle user to stutter step micro in the same direction as the workers, to kill off as many as it could before they actually got out of its range and stayed there. Now it really doesn't matter if you move your drones or not. This makes this the dumbest harass to view / 'defend' in the game, lol. Not to mention that there's like nothing that can catch this thing now. Complete silliness. Blizzard seems to love pulling random changes out of their bum to try with Protoss even more than with the other races 1.) Oracles are now the same speed as Mutas, except much harder to mass, with less regen and no splash. Anything that can catch a mutalisk can catch an Oracle 2.) You can still run away from Oracles, you just can't do it by move-commanding your entire worker line in one direction and expecting that to cut the Oracle dps in half. If you split your workers and send them in different directions, you're still going to make it much harder for the Oracle to kill them then if you just let your workers sit there. Countermicro hasn't been removed, but it has been made more challenging than a single move command. | ||
unigolyn
Estonia1272 Posts
On September 26 2013 04:37 Everlong wrote: These changes do absolutely nothing to resolve the IMBA in T v P matchup. The 10 minute push is devastating to P, NOTHING u can do vs MMMM. Mass Marauder and Stim own P everytime. PERIOD. P either needs a unit to help this, or terran needs BUFFED ALA REDUCE DAMAGE VS ARMORED UNITS. Colossus does nothing, medivacs heal everything, u need at least 4-5 colossus to be effective and its impossible to get that many collasuss considering there cost. How everyone doesn't see this is beyond belief.. everyone knows terran is OP... especially vs P And all you trolls can sit here and say stop crying, ur a noob, etc... but we all know its true. I was hoping to read some good news that blizzard finally realizes how OP terran is with mules, medivacs, mines, SCANS, and just making marine mauarder and owning everything and everyone. It's ridiculous and boring. P.S. I just had to copy this from Bnet forums, I find it hilarious :D Well I have a found a new sig. | ||
Killmouse
Austria5700 Posts
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Lumi
United States1612 Posts
On September 26 2013 06:39 awesomoecalypse wrote: Show nested quote + I hate to rain on the party of everyone who is excited about the oracle, but this acceleration and speed buff actually means that you literally can't run your workers away from them, ever. Before there was room for an oracle user to stutter step micro in the same direction as the workers, to kill off as many as it could before they actually got out of its range and stayed there. Now it really doesn't matter if you move your drones or not. This makes this the dumbest harass to view / 'defend' in the game, lol. Not to mention that there's like nothing that can catch this thing now. Complete silliness. Blizzard seems to love pulling random changes out of their bum to try with Protoss even more than with the other races 1.) Oracles are now the same speed as Mutas, except much harder to mass, with less regen and no splash. Anything that can catch a mutalisk can catch an Oracle 2.) You can still run away from Oracles, you just can't do it by move-commanding your entire worker line in one direction and expecting that to cut the Oracle dps in half. If you split your workers and send them in different directions, you're still going to make it much harder for the Oracle to kill them then if you just let your workers sit there. Countermicro hasn't been removed, but it has been made more challenging than a single move command. Oh boy. You think it's reasonable to compare these to mutalisks at all? That's a problem. So is you thinking that having to do extreme micro as if this is some intense avoid-the-banelings game is now the new way people should be handling 150/150 harass air harass units. We should definitely make it so that banshees are the same. And while we're at it, lets give them more spells to cast, too. And we don't want to leave the mutas out. Arbitrary / inaccurate comparisons for all! I wish TL would implement a forum ladder system so low-league theorycrafting could be ignored before having to actually get into the post Not to be a dick about it but this is blatant ignorance / desperate attempts to rationalize things through whatever comparisons first pop into your minds. Not a lot of thinking things through thoroughly, here. Edit: also, great job with putting effort into the OP, OP! | ||
Herzog
Italy23 Posts
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On September 26 2013 04:37 Everlong wrote: These changes do absolutely nothing to resolve the IMBA in T v P matchup. The 10 minute push is devastating to P, NOTHING u can do vs MMMM. Mass Marauder and Stim own P everytime. PERIOD. P either needs a unit to help this, or terran needs BUFFED ALA REDUCE DAMAGE VS ARMORED UNITS. Colossus does nothing, medivacs heal everything, u need at least 4-5 colossus to be effective and its impossible to get that many collasuss considering there cost. How everyone doesn't see this is beyond belief.. everyone knows terran is OP... especially vs P And all you trolls can sit here and say stop crying, ur a noob, etc... but we all know its true. I was hoping to read some good news that blizzard finally realizes how OP terran is with mules, medivacs, mines, SCANS, and just making marine mauarder and owning everything and everyone. It's ridiculous and boring. P.S. I just had to copy this from Bnet forums, I find it hilarious :D phew, almost thought you were thinking it for real while reading the first couple sentences. yeah most of the ppl on bnet forums are damaged beyond repair... | ||
awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Oh boy. You think it's reasonable to compare these to mutalisks at all? When someone says "nothing can catch this unit", when the unit is the exact same speed as another unit that fills a similar role for another race, then yes pointing out their equivalent speed is relevant. Obviously there are significant differences, but "OMG a 150/150 harass unit with speed 4 is so imba!!11!" is just not really a supportable statement. So is you thinking that having to do extreme micro as if this is some intense avoid-the-banelings game is now the new way people should be handling 150/150 harass air harass units. Correct, I think an expensive harass unit being effectively neutralized by a single move command given to a whole worker line is silly, and that countermicro should be somewhat more involved than that. Its not like "split your workers when you see an Oracle" is some sort of impossible task. | ||
Aando
1304 Posts
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote: Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that. Yeah, unfortunately someone saw that DTs are used in every matchup as a one-hit kill or a lategame harass, which doesn't need to be buffed at all. But if you're in for useless changes, why wouldn't you make Lingspeed available without any upgrade? Or why wouldn't you remove the seeker missile? Or why wouldn't you buff the speed of a banshee, and shorten its acceleration? Ah, obviously we have a protoss here. | ||
Lumi
United States1612 Posts
On September 26 2013 06:48 awesomoecalypse wrote: When someone says "nothing can catch this unit", when the unit is the exact same speed as another unit that fills a similar role for another race, then yes pointing out their equivalent speed is relevant. Obviously there are significant differences, but "OMG a 150/150 harass unit with speed 4 is so imba!!11!" is just not really a supportable statement. Show nested quote + So is you thinking that having to do extreme micro as if this is some intense avoid-the-banelings game is now the new way people should be handling 150/150 harass air harass units. Correct, I think an expensive harass unit being effectively neutralized by a single move command given to a whole worker line is silly, and that countermicro should be somewhat more involved than that. Its not like "split your workers when you see an Oracle" is some sort of impossible task. But it's already not neutralized. It's already great in situations where the worker lines have to be abandoned, and a ton of damage is done from mining that is lost. Think ab out how quickly money comes in from a given mineral line, whatever saturation you'd like. That just stops. This is the backbone of worker harass damage - getting worker kills is the juicy bonus and before t his change the oracle was already doing fine there. It kills workers faster than banshees or mutas (by far with mutas, though, really, i have to maintain that it's really stupid to be comparing these units to begin with because they are fundamentally different. Banshee / oracle comparisons are valid.) Besides, you can't have everything in one unit. While this unit has a distinct profile of worker line harassment, it also has two spells to cast. | ||
ymir233
United States8275 Posts
On September 26 2013 04:08 feardragon wrote: I was kinda excited for the attempted DT change. I know a lot of people were complaining about it but I liked that it would reward people that could use them well. I do like the proposed changes though, including the oracle one. wat. How do you "use DTs well" just because it became faster? You use DTs well by depriving the opponent of awareness and then fucking them in the ass as they go "oh shit" and it snowballs from there. Giving DTs super-speed doesn't reward people for doing that - it just gives them an escape mechanism when the above strategy doesn't work. The DT speed was never a good idea and it'll just annoy the shit out of peoples' timings. | ||
Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On September 26 2013 04:03 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I mean, trying to buff Revelation is nice and all, but I can't really imagine a situation in which I would rather use Revelation instead of having better Observer placement. idk, perhaps I'm underestimating things. My dream would be to have Stargate tech be so viable that you can skip out on Robo tech entirely if you choose to These Oracle changes are 10x better than a gas cost reduction though, that's for damn sure. Widow Mine change seems a lot more reasonable. Always better to undernerf than overnerf, IMO. A good Terran opponent that scans regularly makes observer usage more difficult, the revelation is a more sure fire but skillful way of keeping tabs on an army. | ||
awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
But it's already not neutralized. It's already great in situations where the worker lines have to be abandoned, and a ton of damage is done from mining that is lost. Think ab out how quickly money comes in from a given mineral line, whatever saturation you'd like. That just stops. This is the backbone of worker harass damage - getting worker kills is the juicy bonus and before t his change the oracle was already doing fine there. It kills workers faster than banshees or mutas (by far with mutas, though, really, i have to maintain that it's really stupid to be comparing these units to begin with because they are fundamentally different. Banshee / oracle comparisons are valid.) Besides, you can't have everything in one unit. While this unit has a distinct profile of worker line harassment, it also has two spells to cast I don't think this is "everything in one unit". It still has the exact same strengths and weaknesses, its just been made slightly better at its role. In particular, if you stay active with an Oracle and have good map sense, it should be a lot easier to keep it alive, which means that even if the initial harass isn't super successful, you can still make the unit pay for itself by keeping it alive and staying active with it throughout the game, picking off small groups of lights units here and there, and helping out with detection and revelation as needed. In other words, make it less of a coinflip situation where you either do game-ending damage, or else the investment is wasted, and rather make it something that skilled players can get a lot of mileage out of over the course of the game. | ||
Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On September 26 2013 06:53 boxerfred wrote: Show nested quote + On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote: On September 26 2013 04:07 ZAiNs wrote: DTs :/ Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that. Yeah, unfortunately someone saw that DTs are used in every matchup as a one-hit kill or a lategame harass, which doesn't need to be buffed at all. But if you're in for useless changes, why wouldn't you make Lingspeed available without any upgrade? Or why wouldn't you remove the seeker missile? Or why wouldn't you buff the speed of a banshee, and shorten its acceleration? Ah, obviously we have a protoss here. Apparently you don't understand the point of the patch. And you like to throw racial accusations around as substitute for an argument with substance. The point of the patch is to buff underutilized things so that they get more usage. The community pointed out that DTs are used plenty, and the change was reverted. Don't throw snide comments like that around without having any substance. | ||
boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On September 26 2013 07:04 Wingblade wrote: Show nested quote + On September 26 2013 06:53 boxerfred wrote: On September 26 2013 04:12 sigm wrote: On September 26 2013 04:07 ZAiNs wrote: DTs :/ Yeah, unfortunately it seems like someone from Blizz read the TL thread and saw all the whiners, and instead of changing the proposed buff like they did with the Oracle, they just scrapped it altogether. Shame about that. Yeah, unfortunately someone saw that DTs are used in every matchup as a one-hit kill or a lategame harass, which doesn't need to be buffed at all. But if you're in for useless changes, why wouldn't you make Lingspeed available without any upgrade? Or why wouldn't you remove the seeker missile? Or why wouldn't you buff the speed of a banshee, and shorten its acceleration? Ah, obviously we have a protoss here. Apparently you don't understand the point of the patch. And you like to throw racial accusations around as substitute for an argument with substance. The point of the patch is to buff underutilized things so that they get more usage. The community pointed out that DTs are used plenty, and the change was reverted. Don't throw snide comments like that around without having any substance. Calm down. I just saw that post and thought the same things that you just told me to think of. But obviously, you can express your thoughts much more politely than I can. | ||
AsaZZang
Germany30 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
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