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As some of you might have seen, HLTV has started a new project for Counterstrike: A Hall of Fame for the entire game and all its iterations.
Basically, each year, four players (out of a 10-12 player shortlist) get voted into the Hall of Fame. The kicker: Like with most real-sport HoFs, the player has to be retired to get into the Hall of Fame...so hey, we can already skip any SM-shenanigans (isn't it nice that you can shorten "the two" to that?).
Also there is no community-voting, but a commitee consisting of "people who have committed their lives to the game".
The criterias according to HLTV:
- Achievements: Significant competitive accomplishments or contributions.
- Impact: Having a positive effect, particularly one lasting after the person's active career ends.
- Longevity: Consistency and length of time spent achieving excellence.
As someone with a huge love for history, I always have a thing for sports having these kind of legacy projects. So this is a totally subtle ask for a TL Hall of Fame plstybye.
But anyway, it got me thinking: How would a first "shortlist" of nominees for Starcraft look? And yes, just like HLTV, I think it would be fair to put both games together. There is a huge overlap anyway.
"Retirement" in Starcraft is a bit hard to decide, especially considering how many BW-Pros tend to pop up. I would say for now that everyone is elligible for a shortlist that has not participated in the EPT 2024 or in the last two ASL/SSL.
So to start, I would create a shortlist with lets say five players per race? And please remember, this is not a ranking...it is just players I would consider to be "HoF-worthy".
Protoss:
Considering that a lot of the Protoss who immediately jumped to mind (Bisu, Stork, Best, herO) are still active and Trap just returned, this was surprisingly hard.
- Zest: For me arguably the best Protoss in SC2.
- JangBi: Won the last two BroodWar-OSLs and had a good career in SC2 aswell.
- MC: The BossToss feels like the first "super star" in SC2. I'm also sure he was, at some point, the player with the most prizemoney in the game?
- Kal: Like JangBi, he is part of the Six Dragons and is retired...good enough for me to be honest!
- sOs: And of course, you can't forget about a Two-Time World Champion like sOs. Outside of the World Championships he might have not the greatest of records...but hey, still two freaking World Championships!
Terran:
I will go upfront and say I won't include all four Terran-Bonjwas Liquipedia lists, sorry!
- Flash: I know there are rumours that he will return and that will make me look like a fool, but until then...do I really need to say more about Flash?
- Boxer: The very first Bonjwa, the "Father" of T1 -by far most succesful of the Proleague-teams (in- and outside of Starcraft)- and kind of a gate-opener for SC2 in Korea aswell.
- Innovation: The Master of Teamleagues, who also happen to be one of the best SC2 players of all time (I think he was 4th in Mizenhauers list?). Also perhaps one of, if not the most skilled player the game has ever seen when it comes to just straight-up play.
- Mvp: SC2 was never short of Bonjwa-candidates, but I don't think until Serral we ever really had a "clear/true Bonjwa"...except Mvp. The guy who won everything you could win and make it easy. MC might have been the first superstar of the game, but Mvp was a class of his own.
- NaDa: Originally, I had someone else as my 5th pick here, but then I remembered that NaDa, one of the Bonjwas, is one of only four players who ever managed to win the "Golden Mouse" of OSL of which he was the first one.
Zerg:
Again, before you kill me for not including Jaedong, please remember he is still active. Otherwise he would be my very first pick on the list. Also, funny enough, there are two guys who might have been on this list, but can fuckoff  But honestly...considering that three of the greatest Zergs ever are still active, I had a bit of trouble picking here.
- July: We ended the Terran-list with a Golden Mouser and we shall keep with that theme for a moment. Ironically, he also was the guy they first coined as "Bonjwa"...but just as a nickname, not a title.
- Rogue: He is literally the "Rogue GOAT", as in he is the guy usually picked by people who don't believe in the power of SM. He is also the "Rogue World Champion", because whenever there is a lot of money and a cool storyline at work, Rogue comes in and steals it. I was honestly expecting him to jump out of the crowd at EWC and attack Clem with a steel chair...
- NesTea: The Creator of All Things can't miss this list of course. A GSL Golden Mouser and name-sake of the "NesTea Award" for players who play ten Code S in a row...of which he was the first one of course. NesTea basically is the "Mvp of Zergs".
- Snute: Now, listen. Of course Snute never had the success like the former three Zergs. And today he probably wouldn't even be considered a Top 5 Foreigner of all time, maybe not even Top 10. He is sorely here because of my bias and for his impact. For years, it felt like it was always "The Koreans vs. the "foreign Koreans" vs. Snute vs. the rest)". The one 'true' foreigner who could keep up with the Koreans...to a degree. Others might have more short-term success, but he kept doing it for years. I always call him the "Proto-Serral" for that. Though in fairness, you could just put Stephano or Scarlett here aswell.
- soO: soO had a good career in BW and SC2, but we all know why we know and love him...the Angry Zerg, or perhaps more fitting the Silver Zerg, is one of the most experienced runner-ups of all time, having accumulated a staggering of nine silver medals in Premier events. Which aren't the most, but are still remarkable, especially considering when he accumulated them. In a game that is all about winning that last map, we might want to celebrate the guy who always came one step short...but still kept trying.
Outside the Game:
HLTV does not have that, but I think we can atleast recognize a few people who worked their asses of this game. The "not active anymore"-Rule won't apply here. I will just include three here as a start:
- Tastosis: Right of the bat I will cheat. Because you can't really pick Artosis or Tasteless...the Casting Archon is a thing. They opened Korea for the world and always remained the bridge between the most succesful country in the game, that sadly does not care much for its foreign fans, and the fans around the globe.
- Rotterdam: For me he will always be a player on fnatics WC3 team, but I would consider him the "Casting-Bonjwa". I don't know who it was, but I remember one SC2-Caster basically saying "You could host a 500$ tournament in a basement next weekend, Rotterdam would be there to cast it".
Incontrol: I considered this long and hard. Do I want to put his name here "just because he is dead"? No, I don't and I won't. But Incontrol isn't just that. Whenever I randomly see his casts or bits from the panel, I remember how much I miss him. Incontrol always brought an energy to the table that no one really could match. And thus I can't make three suggestions without putting his name in here aswell.
This concludes my "shortlist" of nominees. From here, you would probably pick one person from each category to have your four entries of 2024 in the Starcraft Hall of Fame.
And while I know that there probably won't be a TL.net Hall of Fame, it was still fun to think about. And I would be super-interested to hear about other peoples shortlists/nominees. Especially considering my probably obvious lack of knowledge about Broodwar!
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Northern Ireland26058 Posts
Nice list, is Stephano retired? If so I’d 100% swap him with Snute
But yeah I think it’s a super fun idea to have some chat about, hell maybe TL’s writers could actually go with it down the line
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This reminds me and makes me miss the GOAT discussions
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United States33488 Posts
The KeSPA hall of fame already exists, but they've gone for an extremely lax, NBA-style hall where it's too easy to get in. At the same time, I feel like the NFL and MLB hall of fames are WAY too strict, so it would be nice for a theoretical SC2 hall of fame to strike a middle ground.
Let me throw out a handful of litmus test players to see how people are feeling (not saying these players are at the same level; I'm throwing out players who have very different resume make-ups):
Do you think Dear should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think GuMiho should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think Trap should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think PartinG should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think MarineKing should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think Bomber should be in the Hall of Fame?
On November 29 2024 11:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This reminds me and makes me miss the GOAT discussions
I unlocked the threads a while ago, go fight people again 
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On November 29 2024 14:12 Waxangel wrote:The KeSPA hall of fame already exists, but they've gone for an extremely lax, NBA-style hall where it's too easy to get in. At the same time, I feel like the NFL and MLB hall of fames are WAY too strict, so it would be nice for a theoretical SC2 hall of fame to strike a middle ground. Let me throw out a handful of litmus test players to see how people are feeling (not saying these players are at the same level; I'm throwing out players who have very different resume make-ups): Do you think Dear should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think GuMiho should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think Trap should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think PartinG should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think MarineKing should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think Bomber should be in the Hall of Fame? Show nested quote +On November 29 2024 11:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This reminds me and makes me miss the GOAT discussions I unlocked the threads a while ago, go fight people again
I personally think in order to be part of a Hall of Fame, you've got to have been The Definitive Best Player for a given period, and not just win a one-off tournament, or at the very least Be Almost The Best Player for a long period. I think if you break some notable records, that is worthy too.
Off of results alone, I probably wouldn't give it to Gumiho, MarineKing, or Dear. Parting and maybe Bomber?
I'd say soO, MMA, Taeja, Nestea, and Rain all should though.
Harder ones for me would be some foreigners who were notable, but never really reached "The Best" territory. Should Stephano, or Neeb? I feel like Stephano, Gumiho, and MK have had definite moments where they've revolutionized the meta for their race before, and I feel like that deserves a lot of recognition too.
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51497 Posts
On November 29 2024 14:12 Waxangel wrote:
The KeSPA hall of fame already exists, but they've gone for an extremely lax, NBA-style hall where it's too easy to get in. At the same time, I feel like the NFL and MLB hall of fames are WAY too strict, so it would be nice for a theoretical SC2 hall of fame to strike a middle ground.
there was also the ESL esports hall of fame (which i was asked to vote on) but that just disappeared from the face of the earth
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On November 29 2024 14:12 Waxangel wrote:The KeSPA hall of fame already exists, but they've gone for an extremely lax, NBA-style hall where it's too easy to get in. At the same time, I feel like the NFL and MLB hall of fames are WAY too strict, so it would be nice for a theoretical SC2 hall of fame to strike a middle ground. Let me throw out a handful of litmus test players to see how people are feeling (not saying these players are at the same level; I'm throwing out players who have very different resume make-ups): Do you think Dear should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think GuMiho should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think Trap should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think PartinG should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think MarineKing should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think Bomber should be in the Hall of Fame? Show nested quote +On November 29 2024 11:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This reminds me and makes me miss the GOAT discussions I unlocked the threads a while ago, go fight people again
Man this is tough;
Dear - No
GuMiho - No although he is probably the pro with the most consistent career
Trap - Yes
PartinG - Debatable but yes based on his stalker micro alone
MarineKing - No
Bomber - No, as most of his big wins were overseas
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On November 29 2024 14:12 Waxangel wrote:
The KeSPA hall of fame already exists, but they've gone for an extremely lax, NBA-style hall where it's too easy to get in. At the same time, I feel like the NFL and MLB hall of fames are WAY too strict, so it would be nice for a theoretical SC2 hall of fame to strike a middle ground.
There definetly should be a middle-ground. Introducing only a small numbers of players each year in a game like Starcraft should almost guarantee that. How many years would you need to do this until you think "mhm, Mixu should be in it" (no offense!). On the other hand, something like the WCG Hall of Fame was way too strict. For those who don't remember: You had to win 2 WCG titles to be in it. How many players even managed that? I remember the FIFA-Twins, Sky and Grubby, but besides that?
Do you think Dear should be in the Hall of Fame? --> Not as an immediate candidate, but I would consider him "one of those for later years"
Do you think GuMiho should be in the Hall of Fame? --> No, because he is still active 
Do you think Trap should be in the Hall of Fame? --> No, because he is getting active again (otherwise: Yes.)
Do you think PartinG should be in the Hall of Fame? --> I sometimes feel his popularity outweights his achievements, but maybe I'm reversing that aswell, so...maybe?
Do you think MarineKing should be in the Hall of Fame? --> He might be, but not before players like Mvp and MMA.
Do you think Bomber should be in the Hall of Fame? --> I was considering Bomber for my original list, but I might overhype his achievements in NA, considering how he got destroyed at BlizzCon.
Harder ones for me would be some foreigners who were notable, but never really reached "The Best" territory. Should Stephano, or Neeb? I feel like Stephano, Gumiho, and MK have had definite moments where they've revolutionized the meta for their race before, and I feel like that deserves a lot of recognition too.
If you want something "groundbreaking", then Neeb absolutely would be a candidate and I'm now honestly wondering why I didn't put him in my shortlist instead of Kal. Neeb was the first foreigner since Grr... to win a Premier Tournament on korean soil after 16 years or something like that. Up until Serral did the Serral-thingy that was probably the greatest foreigner achievement in SC2 ever.
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United States1901 Posts
On November 29 2024 14:12 Waxangel wrote:The KeSPA hall of fame already exists, but they've gone for an extremely lax, NBA-style hall where it's too easy to get in. At the same time, I feel like the NFL and MLB hall of fames are WAY too strict, so it would be nice for a theoretical SC2 hall of fame to strike a middle ground. Let me throw out a handful of litmus test players to see how people are feeling (not saying these players are at the same level; I'm throwing out players who have very different resume make-ups): Do you think Dear should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think GuMiho should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think Trap should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think PartinG should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think MarineKing should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think Bomber should be in the Hall of Fame? Show nested quote +On November 29 2024 11:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This reminds me and makes me miss the GOAT discussions I unlocked the threads a while ago, go fight people again
No, No, No, No, def no, No
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Terran needs iloveoov too.
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On November 29 2024 21:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Terran needs iloveoov too.
Originally I was considering him over NaDa, because he also won Proleague as a Coach. But the Golden Mouse kind of won me over.
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On November 29 2024 21:51 Balnazza wrote:Originally I was considering him over NaDa, because he also won Proleague as a Coach. But the Golden Mouse kind of won me over.
They're both bonjwas; they both deserve to be on that list imo. That Terran list is already stacked, but I think oov needs to be added (not necessarily replacing anyone)
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On November 29 2024 14:12 Waxangel wrote:
The KeSPA hall of fame already exists, but they've gone for an extremely lax, NBA-style hall where it's too easy to get in. At the same time, I feel like the NFL and MLB hall of fames are WAY too strict, so it would be nice for a theoretical SC2 hall of fame to strike a middle ground.
Let me throw out a handful of litmus test players to see how people are feeling (not saying these players are at the same level; I'm throwing out players who have very different resume make-ups):
Do you think Dear should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think GuMiho should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think Trap should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think PartinG should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think MarineKing should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think Bomber should be in the Hall of Fame?
I feel like the way I'm thinking about my answers to this come with a "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame" vibe, whether or not that's a middle ground at all. Mostly how some have to wait long enough, but also, some don't get in from the long-lists for a while until you know someone more important in their vein does first.
Dear - I personally want to say Yes to this. Probably because I saw part of his peak run at the Season finals in Toronto that year, but he looked so good then, and the Royal Road only happens so often.
Gumiho - Maybe (eventually, in my RnR scenario). If you needed to acknowledge Mech once, it has to be him I think.
Trap - He feels more maybe/later to me. I like Trap, and I know it might not make sense that I think Dear's more of a Yes.
Parting - Yes for me. He had a WC. He named a build. He was an MC like star in his time.
MKP - Sorta Maybe/No.
Bomber - All I will add here is if you add Bomber, you have to add Scarlett. Separately they're each arguable, their rivalry would have to be in it though.
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Northern Ireland26058 Posts
Roro and Byul for their achievements are remarkably absent in any such conversation :p I can more understand the former joking aside, Byul was pretty legitimately good for quite some period of time though.
I often name Trap as the most underrated SC2 pro, but it may in fact be me talking total Byulshit
I find these things tricky. Best of the best and achievements are part of it, but being an innovator, or a big fan favourite is a part of it too.
Be it in LRs, places like Reddit or in-person at events, fan passions drive a scene and I think you gotta acknowledge that in a Hall of Fame as well.
Plus you have the added complication of a shifting game and scene, so you end up with similar problems that folks attempting GOAT rankings come into, whereas an org like the NFL or NBA has been pretty structurally static for decades.
Anyhow here are some of mine, I’m trying to stick to retired players, if a player is in fact, not officially retired I shall concede the mistake
Terran
Mvp - It’s Mvp.
Innovation - It’s Innovation.
TY - It’s TY.
Taeja - Guy won a lot of tournaments, and I think it’s somewhat forgotten nowadays that it’s semi-common, but folks just didn’t win consecutive tournaments all that much back in the day. Was more competitive with the absolute elite than he gets credit for if one looks through his tourney results, and his rivalry with Life was a classic cut short before its time. As was Taeja’s career through injury, I think a non-injured Taeja could have kept up an elite career for a lot longer.
Bomber - Won things, some rather decent things and through sheer force of macro at times. For his peak time, possibly the most feared macro chops in the entire scene. Latter-day Bomber was also more competitive with Kespa’s best and he had some impressive runs late in his career that I think folks have forgotten about.
Protoss
MC - Showed the way Toss was meant to be played, brought a lot of pain to many. Being the first Korean to really make an effort to show their personality to the foreign audience I think was pretty huge in shaping a more internationally connected scene too.
Zest - Is best. Or certainly up there amongst Protoss
Parting - I’m on record as saying he’s as overrated as Trap is underrated, that doesn’t mean he wasn’t bloody good, or not HoF worthy
Zerg
NesTea - It’s Nestea.
Stephano - While he never went full Serral and became the absolute best player as a foreigner, he had periods where he was pretty close. The first foreigner to really somewhat consistently challenge Koreans in stacked tournaments, and a real ‘natural talent’ as well.
The latter two are smaller categories not because I hate Zerg and Toss but I really struggle to think of anyone I’d put in that is actually retired.
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Initial class of Nestea, MC and MVP.
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Yay ! Finally something more to argue about than the *one that should not be named* - list. Thanks for the OP for the start of it.
Lets do this !
On November 29 2024 14:12 Waxangel wrote:
Do you think Dear should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think GuMiho should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think Trap should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think PartinG should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think MarineKing should be in the Hall of Fame?
Do you think Bomber should be in the Hall of Fame?
Dear ? Just no.
Trap ? Yes.
Parting ? Yes. Definitely yes. What would HOF be without one of the games Superstars ?
MarineKing ? No.
Bomber ? No.
On November 30 2024 00:07 WombaT wrote:
Terran
Mvp - It’s Mvp.
Innovation - It’s Innovation.
TY - It’s TY.
Taeja
MVP ? Of course.
Innovation ? Of course.
TY ? No. Overrated.
Taeja ? YES.
On November 30 2024 00:07 WombaT wrote:
Protoss
MC
Zest
MC ? Yes for the LEGEND. Let it Gooooo. What would HOF be without one of the games Superstars ?
Zest ? Of course.
On November 30 2024 00:07 WombaT wrote:
Zerg
NesTea
Stephano
Nestea ? Yes.
Stephano ? Yes, what would HOF be without one of the games Superstars ?
IMO the Hall of fame- list should be more of the impact that a player has made to the whole scene than the skill or just the achievements alone. For example MC, Parting or Stephano can go without being named even in the top-20 or 30 in the all-time players list, but they are still clear to be hall of famers because the impact they had in the scene. Everybody that has followed the scene even bit longer knows those names and what they are famous for.
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On November 29 2024 14:12 Waxangel wrote:The KeSPA hall of fame already exists, but they've gone for an extremely lax, NBA-style hall where it's too easy to get in. At the same time, I feel like the NFL and MLB hall of fames are WAY too strict, so it would be nice for a theoretical SC2 hall of fame to strike a middle ground. Let me throw out a handful of litmus test players to see how people are feeling (not saying these players are at the same level; I'm throwing out players who have very different resume make-ups): Do you think Dear should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think GuMiho should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think Trap should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think PartinG should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think MarineKing should be in the Hall of Fame? Do you think Bomber should be in the Hall of Fame? Show nested quote +On November 29 2024 11:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This reminds me and makes me miss the GOAT discussions I unlocked the threads a while ago, go fight people again
Only Parting should be in the hall of fame. Created one of the best build for toss pvz
The rest is an easy no
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EPT
