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On September 26 2013 08:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 07:43 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 07:38 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:34 awesomoecalypse wrote:On September 26 2013 07:32 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 07:22 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 06:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:
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When someone says "nothing can catch this unit", when the unit is the exact same speed as another unit that fills a similar role for another race, then yes pointing out their equivalent speed is relevant. Obviously there are significant differences, but "OMG a 150/150 harass unit with speed 4 is so imba!!11!" is just not really a supportable statement.
[quote]
Correct, I think an expensive harass unit being effectively neutralized by a single move command given to a whole worker line is silly, and that countermicro should be somewhat more involved than that. Its not like "split your workers when you see an Oracle" is some sort of impossible task.
Works for Hellion drops. Which cost 500/100, 10 supply, the mineral and gas cost of more tech infrastructure, and involves ground units. I think I'm actually becoming a fan of these absurd comparisons. For 350 more minerals you get 4 units that are unaffected by turrets, have a tendency to one shot clumps of workers, are easily replaceable for minerals only, and is not a deviation from standard tech. But that's beside the point. People are already willing to split workers to minimize hellion harass. Why are you against splitting workers when harassed by non-hellions? Well, it's not the only reason, but to get to the essence of the matter - splitting workers is what you do against splash damage, because of splash damage. Not units that are so fast that you send everyone running to the hills to fend for themselves because a single target dps monster is going to swiftly hunt everything down. How does this notion sound legit to you? You have failed to explain why splitting for splash damage harass is totally ok, but splitting vs. fast, high damage single target harass is somehow some unholy abomination. In terms of the countermicro response, they're very similar. I haven't failed to explain so much as that you fail to comprehend and appreciate an existent distinction between these two dynamics that already exists and is well-shown throughout our game as it is. You're blurring contexts and refusing to appreciate the obscurity of a single target unit that is actually so high dps and so fast that the best thing you can do is split. Imagine if DTs were like that. I'm wondering if you're even considering the resource of APM as it pertains to having to split things up into several directions and s end them places. I don't know what kind of godly split you're imagining in your mind, or how easy you think it is. Not to mention that you only have to pay as much money for this as you do, with an oracle, vs what you normally have to pay for hellions or a hellion drop, or a large quantity of banelings. You really don't have a point beyond that it's technically possible for a person to split up workers in response to the presence of harassment. This is very rudimentary, and it's flying in the face of all of the detailed contrast that is being provided for you. dude, you are complaining that you have to split versus protoss when you already split versus zerg and terran... And you're complaint is that a 150 gas unit is not expensive enough. Stop and think. Sorry, but while I'm busy thinking and appreciating all details, you're continuously ignoring them in full while reducing this would-be critical analysis to even further generalized and plainly inaccurate degrees. "You split vs one race, so you split vs the others." If that's the kind of logic you're using to figure out balance, and it seems to be so - I have to stop interacting with you. Nothing personal, you're just observably making less and less sense. Well, being that you first responded with me by talking about the cost of Hellions and then responded to other posters about how hellions have splash and oracles are too fast (Hellions have 4.25 speed making them faster even than these speed oracles) you don't really have an argument. Hellions move faster Hellions have splash Hellions cost less gas Hellions need less tech diversion But you are okay with splitting against Hellions than an oracle that needs energy to shoot, can only do it from short range, and dies to single widowmine shot (Banshees require 2 widowmine shots) So no, you don't have an argument at all.
I'll give you props to your enduring creativity. But merely coming up with the latest wave of random and invalid criteria for comparison is not going to do much to help your quest to know what the hell you're talking about :\ I'm legitimately curious about how your brain works and makes the connections that it has been. The part where you just ignore everything you don't like is hardly mysterious, though.
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On September 26 2013 08:13 MarlieChurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 04:03 DinoMight wrote:
I'm glad the widow mine nerf is not as severe as they originally planned.. seemed a little too much. Also the Oracle range buff is a little better than the cost reduction, but I think 4 speed may be a bit much. it was .6 vs .5 How big is this anyways? I don't even know if it will do anything at all. I don't think the problem is their splash radius..
1.75 radius is 3.50 diameter
1.25 radius is 2.50 diameter
28.4% circumference reduction.
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Tank change doesn't do anything... They are still incredibly hard countered by Zerg and Protoss...
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I'm happy with the changes they made since the last post, all of them are for the better. I'd prefer if they gave the tank a different buff than firing speed (maybe even lowering the firing speed and increasing splash, so you can bait out tank shots with a few units and then attack before the next volley, or something), but otherwise it's all good.
Well done!
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On September 26 2013 08:19 NKexquisite wrote:
Tank change doesn't do anything... They are still incredibly hard countered by Zerg and Protoss...
Hard countered by entire races you say? What imbalance!
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On September 26 2013 07:43 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 07:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 07:38 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:34 awesomoecalypse wrote:On September 26 2013 07:32 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 07:22 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 06:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:Oh boy. You think it's reasonable to compare these to mutalisks at all? When someone says "nothing can catch this unit", when the unit is the exact same speed as another unit that fills a similar role for another race, then yes pointing out their equivalent speed is relevant. Obviously there are significant differences, but "OMG a 150/150 harass unit with speed 4 is so imba!!11!" is just not really a supportable statement. So is you thinking that having to do extreme micro as if this is some intense avoid-the-banelings game is now the new way people should be handling 150/150 harass air harass units. Correct, I think an expensive harass unit being effectively neutralized by a single move command given to a whole worker line is silly, and that countermicro should be somewhat more involved than that. Its not like "split your workers when you see an Oracle" is some sort of impossible task. Works for Hellion drops. Which cost 500/100, 10 supply, the mineral and gas cost of more tech infrastructure, and involves ground units. I think I'm actually becoming a fan of these absurd comparisons. For 350 more minerals you get 4 units that are unaffected by turrets, have a tendency to one shot clumps of workers, are easily replaceable for minerals only, and is not a deviation from standard tech. But that's beside the point. People are already willing to split workers to minimize hellion harass. Why are you against splitting workers when harassed by non-hellions? Well, it's not the only reason, but to get to the essence of the matter - splitting workers is what you do against splash damage, because of splash damage. Not units that are so fast that you send everyone running to the hills to fend for themselves because a single target dps monster is going to swiftly hunt everything down. How does this notion sound legit to you? You have failed to explain why splitting for splash damage harass is totally ok, but splitting vs. fast, high damage single target harass is somehow some unholy abomination. In terms of the countermicro response, they're very similar. I haven't failed to explain so much as that you fail to comprehend and appreciate an existent distinction between these two dynamics that already exists and is well-shown throughout our game as it is. You're blurring contexts and refusing to appreciate the obscurity of a single target unit that is actually so high dps and so fast that the best thing you can do is split. Imagine if DTs were like that. I'm wondering if you're even considering the resource of APM as it pertains to having to split things up into several directions and s end them places. I don't know what kind of godly split you're imagining in your mind, or how easy you think it is. Not to mention that you only have to pay as much money for this as you do, with an oracle, vs what you normally have to pay for hellions or a hellion drop, or a large quantity of banelings. You really don't have a point beyond that it's technically possible for a person to split up workers in response to the presence of harassment. This is very rudimentary, and it's flying in the face of all of the detailed contrast that is being provided for you. dude, you are complaining that you have to split versus protoss when you already split versus zerg and terran... And you're complaint is that a 150 gas unit is not expensive enough. Stop and think. Sorry, but while I'm busy thinking and appreciating all details, you're continuously ignoring them in full while reducing this would-be critical analysis to even further generalized and plainly inaccurate degrees. "You split vs one race, so you split vs the others." If that's the kind of logic you're using to figure out balance, and it seems to be so - I have to stop interacting with you. Nothing personal, you're just observably making less and less sense.
So here is the real question, why is the oracle so again? Its a cracked out muta that runs out of ammo and can't be massed. It is also made of glass and Christmas wishes, has not shields and can't heal. Its also comes out of a dead end tech tree that doesn't have any AOE.
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I was hoping for more HP for oracle but nerf the damage. Really annoying in PvP ladder when your units are a bit out of position. its kinda auto win for the other that just "who got lucky" and kill your workers in an instant.
what does this even mean
how are you supposed to micro against AA that has over twice the range of pulsar beam
I think he is referring to Revelation usage for vision for your 'own' tempests.
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On September 26 2013 08:17 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 08:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 07:43 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 07:38 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:34 awesomoecalypse wrote:On September 26 2013 07:32 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 07:22 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Works for Hellion drops. Which cost 500/100, 10 supply, the mineral and gas cost of more tech infrastructure, and involves ground units. I think I'm actually becoming a fan of these absurd comparisons. For 350 more minerals you get 4 units that are unaffected by turrets, have a tendency to one shot clumps of workers, are easily replaceable for minerals only, and is not a deviation from standard tech. But that's beside the point. People are already willing to split workers to minimize hellion harass. Why are you against splitting workers when harassed by non-hellions? Well, it's not the only reason, but to get to the essence of the matter - splitting workers is what you do against splash damage, because of splash damage. Not units that are so fast that you send everyone running to the hills to fend for themselves because a single target dps monster is going to swiftly hunt everything down. How does this notion sound legit to you? You have failed to explain why splitting for splash damage harass is totally ok, but splitting vs. fast, high damage single target harass is somehow some unholy abomination. In terms of the countermicro response, they're very similar. I haven't failed to explain so much as that you fail to comprehend and appreciate an existent distinction between these two dynamics that already exists and is well-shown throughout our game as it is. You're blurring contexts and refusing to appreciate the obscurity of a single target unit that is actually so high dps and so fast that the best thing you can do is split. Imagine if DTs were like that. I'm wondering if you're even considering the resource of APM as it pertains to having to split things up into several directions and s end them places. I don't know what kind of godly split you're imagining in your mind, or how easy you think it is. Not to mention that you only have to pay as much money for this as you do, with an oracle, vs what you normally have to pay for hellions or a hellion drop, or a large quantity of banelings. You really don't have a point beyond that it's technically possible for a person to split up workers in response to the presence of harassment. This is very rudimentary, and it's flying in the face of all of the detailed contrast that is being provided for you. dude, you are complaining that you have to split versus protoss when you already split versus zerg and terran... And you're complaint is that a 150 gas unit is not expensive enough. Stop and think. Sorry, but while I'm busy thinking and appreciating all details, you're continuously ignoring them in full while reducing this would-be critical analysis to even further generalized and plainly inaccurate degrees. "You split vs one race, so you split vs the others." If that's the kind of logic you're using to figure out balance, and it seems to be so - I have to stop interacting with you. Nothing personal, you're just observably making less and less sense. Well, being that you first responded with me by talking about the cost of Hellions and then responded to other posters about how hellions have splash and oracles are too fast (Hellions have 4.25 speed making them faster even than these speed oracles) you don't really have an argument. Hellions move faster Hellions have splash Hellions cost less gas Hellions need less tech diversion But you are okay with splitting against Hellions than an oracle that needs energy to shoot, can only do it from short range, and dies to single widowmine shot (Banshees require 2 widowmine shots) So no, you don't have an argument at all. I'll give you props to your enduring creativity. But merely coming up with the latest wave of random and invalid criteria for comparison is not going to do much to help your quest to know what the hell you're talking about :\ I'm legitimately curious about how your brain works and makes the connections that it has been. The part where you just ignore everything you don't like is hardly mysterious, though.
You first say
Which cost 500/100, 10 supply, the mineral and gas cost of more tech infrastructure, and involves ground units. I think I'm actually becoming a fan of these absurd comparisons.
Which is silly since Hellions cost no gas and medivacs are a mass produced unit in terran compositions whether you're doingdrops or not.
You then say
Well, it's not the only reason, but to get to the essence of the matter - splitting workers is what you do against splash damage, because of splash damage. Not units that are so fast that you send everyone running to the hills to fend for themselves
Despite the fact that Hellions are already faster than Oracles and 3 of them kill clumps of workers in 1 shot. That's literally the maximum DPS you can do to a target, to kill it in one shot.
You then say
You're blurring contexts and refusing to appreciate the obscurity of a single target unit that is actually so high dps and so fast that the best thing you can do is split
Which is silly when 3-4 hellions kills clumps of workers in one shot, move faster than oracles, and does not cost gas.
You follow this by thensaying
Sorry, but while I'm busy thinking and appreciating all details, you're continuously ignoring them
When you have not actually made a factual statement for about 5 posts in a row.
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On September 26 2013 08:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 08:13 MarlieChurphy wrote:On September 26 2013 04:03 DinoMight wrote:
I'm glad the widow mine nerf is not as severe as they originally planned.. seemed a little too much. Also the Oracle range buff is a little better than the cost reduction, but I think 4 speed may be a bit much. it was .6 vs .5 How big is this anyways? I don't even know if it will do anything at all. I don't think the problem is their splash radius.. 1.75 radius is 3.50 diameter 1.25 radius is 2.50 diameter 28.4% circumference reduction.
AREA is what matters.
1.75 radius = 9.6 area
1.25 radius = 4.9 area
That's a 49% reduction in area.
(1.1 radius = 3.8 which was a 60% area reduction)
e: How is anyone comparing units that can be blocked and attacked by almost all other units (hellions) to something that can fly right into a worker line.
Also, hellions need to hit 4 light units to do the same dps as an oracle.
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On September 26 2013 08:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 08:13 MarlieChurphy wrote:On September 26 2013 04:03 DinoMight wrote:
I'm glad the widow mine nerf is not as severe as they originally planned.. seemed a little too much. Also the Oracle range buff is a little better than the cost reduction, but I think 4 speed may be a bit much. it was .6 vs .5 How big is this anyways? I don't even know if it will do anything at all. I don't think the problem is their splash radius.. 1.75 radius is 3.50 diameter 1.25 radius is 2.50 diameter 28.4% circumference reduction.
Area is what matters and it almost got cut in half:
1.25 radius = 4.9 area
1.75 radius = 9.6 area
And @dino: of course the radius matters. Its an AOE weapon. The only time it gets built to snipe single targets are for oracles.
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On September 26 2013 08:15 Sabu113 wrote:
Fantastic op.
As usual protoss gets little and less haha. Admittedly a full on DT buff was a touch extreme.
Protoss don't have mouths. So, even when we do complain it goes unheard at Blizzard HQ.
Only the Brotoss hear it over the Psi-network. Hence, the Sad Zealot club.
Jokes aside though, it's all good. I'd prefer no changes. The only changes I am really in favour of are the changes to the Tank and the Oracle. But, most of these seem good to test and look reasonable if and when implemented (tweaked) in the game.
I am looking forward to testing these out on the test map.
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I for one welcome our new marauder hellbat viking overlords.
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On September 26 2013 04:04 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 04:03 DinoMight wrote:
I'm glad the widow mine nerf is not as severe as they originally planned.. seemed a little too much. Also the Oracle range buff is a little better than the cost reduction, but I think 4 speed may be a bit much. I think it will be ok, Oracles are still ridiculously fragile, so if you have your defenses in place you'll still scare them away. However, if you're good enough at multitasking as P and don't lose your Oracles, you can maybe utilize Revelation a bit more reliably now? We'll have to see I guess.
Oracles are ridiculously fragile? How fragile are banshees then?
i just dont get the point in further buffing that unit because compared to a banshee its already 2-3 times better in the big picture (mid game usage, harass, speed, hp). Protoss players should fricken learn how to use that thing and they dont use it because its still "hard" for them. This is ridiculous.
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Nerf the marauders blizz yo. And put all its power to tanks! Marine- Tank it is ! 
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Still feel that the Roach buff will be lolstomp. Maybe a more modest buff to say 1.75 or 2.0. 2.25 is standard unit speed, and that's a bit much. I feel like it's much harder to notice than Cloak unless you use crazy graphics settings.
Nerf the Oracle HP and/or damage, then you can buff it's speed as much as you'd like. As it is, 1 Oracle left unchecked for 2 seconds is half your mineral line gone. Same could be said about DTs, but come on... At least DTs don't fly and don't move at the speed of light (just CLOSE to the speed of light).
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I don't even play this game but I wanted to see speedy DTs so bad 
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On September 26 2013 08:38 shin_toss wrote:Nerf the marauders blizz yo. And put all its power to tanks! Marine- Tank it is !
I normally don't like getting all Blizzard Forums up in here, but I have to say that it makes me so sad that marauders are not a protoss unit. Like, seriously, the bulky, ranged unit that can kite has been a Protoss mainstay since the fucking dragoon and its Terran that gets him? Terran?
Like really?
Sigh....
Okay, blizz-whine out, I'll try being more objective. Sorry about that.
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Chill out guys it's a test map for a reason because obviously no one knows what will happen if these changes are made. But apparently there's plenty of people who think they've mastered the game so completely they know exactly what will happen
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On September 26 2013 08:27 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 08:18 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 08:13 MarlieChurphy wrote:On September 26 2013 04:03 DinoMight wrote:
I'm glad the widow mine nerf is not as severe as they originally planned.. seemed a little too much. Also the Oracle range buff is a little better than the cost reduction, but I think 4 speed may be a bit much. it was .6 vs .5 How big is this anyways? I don't even know if it will do anything at all. I don't think the problem is their splash radius.. 1.75 radius is 3.50 diameter 1.25 radius is 2.50 diameter 28.4% circumference reduction. AREA is what matters. 1.75 radius = 9.6 area 1.25 radius = 4.9 area That's a 49% reduction in area. (1.1 radius = 3.8 which was a 60% area reduction) e: How is anyone comparing units that can be blocked and attacked by almost all other units (hellions) to something that can fly right into a worker line. Also, hellions need to hit 4 light units to do the same dps as an oracle.
I wasn't trying to compare them. As I said, having to split workers is not an argument against the oracle because you already have to spread against other forms of harass. As you noticed from the quotes I posted, Rabiator was the one who brought up hellion costs, oracle speed, and splash damage.
Also, hellions don't need to "match" an oracle's DPS when they literally kill packs of workers in one shot... This is the problem with the WoW mindset bleeding into starcraft, terms start getting thrown around without context.
Siege Tanks deal more DPS in Tank Mode than in Siege Mode but that doesn't mean you should never siege up tanks.... its about attack breakpoints people.
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awww, the DT change would have been hilarious to see go live
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EPT
