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On September 26 2013 06:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:When someone says "nothing can catch this unit", when the unit is the exact same speed as another unit that fills a similar role for another race, then yes pointing out their equivalent speed is relevant. Obviously there are significant differences, but "OMG a 150/150 harass unit with speed 4 is so imba!!11!" is just not really a supportable statement. Show nested quote +So is you thinking that having to do extreme micro as if this is some intense avoid-the-banelings game is now the new way people should be handling 150/150 harass air harass units. Correct, I think an expensive harass unit being effectively neutralized by a single move command given to a whole worker line is silly, and that countermicro should be somewhat more involved than that. Its not like "split your workers when you see an Oracle" is some sort of impossible task.
Works for Hellion drops.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
On September 26 2013 07:17 Existor wrote:Carbotizied Oracle based on this artwork + Show Spoiler +
Awesome! I'll add it to the title page.
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On September 26 2013 07:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 06:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:Oh boy. You think it's reasonable to compare these to mutalisks at all? When someone says "nothing can catch this unit", when the unit is the exact same speed as another unit that fills a similar role for another race, then yes pointing out their equivalent speed is relevant. Obviously there are significant differences, but "OMG a 150/150 harass unit with speed 4 is so imba!!11!" is just not really a supportable statement. So is you thinking that having to do extreme micro as if this is some intense avoid-the-banelings game is now the new way people should be handling 150/150 harass air harass units. Correct, I think an expensive harass unit being effectively neutralized by a single move command given to a whole worker line is silly, and that countermicro should be somewhat more involved than that. Its not like "split your workers when you see an Oracle" is some sort of impossible task. Works for Hellion drops.
Which cost 500/100, 10 supply, the mineral and gas cost of more tech infrastructure, and involves ground units. I think I'm actually becoming a fan of these absurd comparisons.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On September 26 2013 07:21 iHirO wrote:Awesome! I'll add it to the title page.
Check the post again. I've changed angle a bit
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I'd love to at least try the DT change
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On September 26 2013 07:22 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 07:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 06:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:Oh boy. You think it's reasonable to compare these to mutalisks at all? When someone says "nothing can catch this unit", when the unit is the exact same speed as another unit that fills a similar role for another race, then yes pointing out their equivalent speed is relevant. Obviously there are significant differences, but "OMG a 150/150 harass unit with speed 4 is so imba!!11!" is just not really a supportable statement. So is you thinking that having to do extreme micro as if this is some intense avoid-the-banelings game is now the new way people should be handling 150/150 harass air harass units. Correct, I think an expensive harass unit being effectively neutralized by a single move command given to a whole worker line is silly, and that countermicro should be somewhat more involved than that. Its not like "split your workers when you see an Oracle" is some sort of impossible task. Works for Hellion drops. Which cost 500/100, 10 supply, the mineral and gas cost of more tech infrastructure, and involves ground units. I think I'm actually becoming a fan of these absurd comparisons.
For 350 more minerals you get 4 units that are unaffected by turrets, have a tendency to one shot clumps of workers, are easily replaceable for minerals only, and is not a deviation from standard tech.
But that's beside the point.
People are already willing to split workers to minimize hellion harass. Why are you against splitting workers when harassed by non-hellions?
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On September 26 2013 07:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 07:22 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 06:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:Oh boy. You think it's reasonable to compare these to mutalisks at all? When someone says "nothing can catch this unit", when the unit is the exact same speed as another unit that fills a similar role for another race, then yes pointing out their equivalent speed is relevant. Obviously there are significant differences, but "OMG a 150/150 harass unit with speed 4 is so imba!!11!" is just not really a supportable statement. So is you thinking that having to do extreme micro as if this is some intense avoid-the-banelings game is now the new way people should be handling 150/150 harass air harass units. Correct, I think an expensive harass unit being effectively neutralized by a single move command given to a whole worker line is silly, and that countermicro should be somewhat more involved than that. Its not like "split your workers when you see an Oracle" is some sort of impossible task. Works for Hellion drops. Which cost 500/100, 10 supply, the mineral and gas cost of more tech infrastructure, and involves ground units. I think I'm actually becoming a fan of these absurd comparisons. For 350 more minerals you get 4 units that are unaffected by turrets, have a tendency to one shot clumps of workers, are easily replaceable for minerals only, and is not a deviation from standard tech. But that's beside the point. People are already willing to split workers to minimize hellion harass. Why are you against splitting workers when harassed by non-hellions?
Well, it's not the only reason, but to get to the essence of the matter - splitting workers is what you do against splash damage, because of splash damage. Not because there are units that are so fast that you send everyone running to the hills to fend for themselves because a single target dps monster is going to swiftly hunt everything down. When that's the case, we run away. Having a unit blur these distinctions like that would be a sure-sign of something bizarrely powerful going on.
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On September 26 2013 07:32 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 07:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 07:22 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 06:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:Oh boy. You think it's reasonable to compare these to mutalisks at all? When someone says "nothing can catch this unit", when the unit is the exact same speed as another unit that fills a similar role for another race, then yes pointing out their equivalent speed is relevant. Obviously there are significant differences, but "OMG a 150/150 harass unit with speed 4 is so imba!!11!" is just not really a supportable statement. So is you thinking that having to do extreme micro as if this is some intense avoid-the-banelings game is now the new way people should be handling 150/150 harass air harass units. Correct, I think an expensive harass unit being effectively neutralized by a single move command given to a whole worker line is silly, and that countermicro should be somewhat more involved than that. Its not like "split your workers when you see an Oracle" is some sort of impossible task. Works for Hellion drops. Which cost 500/100, 10 supply, the mineral and gas cost of more tech infrastructure, and involves ground units. I think I'm actually becoming a fan of these absurd comparisons. For 350 more minerals you get 4 units that are unaffected by turrets, have a tendency to one shot clumps of workers, are easily replaceable for minerals only, and is not a deviation from standard tech. But that's beside the point. People are already willing to split workers to minimize hellion harass. Why are you against splitting workers when harassed by non-hellions? Well, it's not the only reason, but to get to the essence of the matter - splitting workers is what you do against splash damage, because of splash damage. Not units that are so fast that you send everyone running to the hills to fend for themselves because a single target dps monster is going to swiftly hunt everything down. How does this notion sound legit to you?
You have failed to explain why splitting for splash damage harass is totally ok, but splitting vs. fast, high damage single target harass is somehow some unholy abomination. In terms of the countermicro response, they're very similar.
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On September 26 2013 07:28 larse wrote:An experiment of widow mine nerf: before and after the nerf http://imgur.com/a/rlazv![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dbS2Yme.jpg)
Thanks for going out of your way and posting this. Very insightful.
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On September 26 2013 07:34 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 07:32 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 07:22 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 06:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:Oh boy. You think it's reasonable to compare these to mutalisks at all? When someone says "nothing can catch this unit", when the unit is the exact same speed as another unit that fills a similar role for another race, then yes pointing out their equivalent speed is relevant. Obviously there are significant differences, but "OMG a 150/150 harass unit with speed 4 is so imba!!11!" is just not really a supportable statement. So is you thinking that having to do extreme micro as if this is some intense avoid-the-banelings game is now the new way people should be handling 150/150 harass air harass units. Correct, I think an expensive harass unit being effectively neutralized by a single move command given to a whole worker line is silly, and that countermicro should be somewhat more involved than that. Its not like "split your workers when you see an Oracle" is some sort of impossible task. Works for Hellion drops. Which cost 500/100, 10 supply, the mineral and gas cost of more tech infrastructure, and involves ground units. I think I'm actually becoming a fan of these absurd comparisons. For 350 more minerals you get 4 units that are unaffected by turrets, have a tendency to one shot clumps of workers, are easily replaceable for minerals only, and is not a deviation from standard tech. But that's beside the point. People are already willing to split workers to minimize hellion harass. Why are you against splitting workers when harassed by non-hellions? Well, it's not the only reason, but to get to the essence of the matter - splitting workers is what you do against splash damage, because of splash damage. Not units that are so fast that you send everyone running to the hills to fend for themselves because a single target dps monster is going to swiftly hunt everything down. How does this notion sound legit to you? You have failed to explain why splitting for splash damage harass is totally ok, but splitting vs. fast, high damage single target harass is somehow some unholy abomination. In terms of the countermicro response, they're very similar.
I haven't failed to explain so much as that you fail to comprehend and appreciate an existent distinction between these two dynamics that already exists and is well-shown throughout our game as it is. You're blurring contexts and refusing to appreciate the obscurity of a single target unit that is actually so high dps and so fast that the best thing you can do is split. Imagine if DTs were like that.
I'm wondering if you're even considering the resource of APM as it pertains to having to split things up into several directions and send them places. Imagine if this was how people had to respond to DTs and banshees? I don't know what kind of godly split you're imagining in your mind, or how easy you think it is. Not to mention that you only have to pay as much money for this as you do, with an oracle, vs what you normally have to pay for hellions or a hellion drop, or a large quantity of banelings. Why on earth would you think that making this change into such bizarre and imba-indicative territory is nothing to take seriously? Just breeze over the full context of things as soon as you can latch onto a single arbitrary comparison between one unit and another? Or several others?
You really don't have a point beyond that it's technically possible for a person to split up workers in response to the presence of harassment. This is very rudimentary, and it's flying in the face of all of the detailed contrast that is being provided for you.
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On September 26 2013 04:22 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I would rather them try to focus on getting people to use Oracles more. DTs are already used a decent amount.
I would rather focus on fixing the damn game instead of tweaking units.
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On September 26 2013 07:38 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 07:34 awesomoecalypse wrote:On September 26 2013 07:32 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 07:22 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 06:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:Oh boy. You think it's reasonable to compare these to mutalisks at all? When someone says "nothing can catch this unit", when the unit is the exact same speed as another unit that fills a similar role for another race, then yes pointing out their equivalent speed is relevant. Obviously there are significant differences, but "OMG a 150/150 harass unit with speed 4 is so imba!!11!" is just not really a supportable statement. So is you thinking that having to do extreme micro as if this is some intense avoid-the-banelings game is now the new way people should be handling 150/150 harass air harass units. Correct, I think an expensive harass unit being effectively neutralized by a single move command given to a whole worker line is silly, and that countermicro should be somewhat more involved than that. Its not like "split your workers when you see an Oracle" is some sort of impossible task. Works for Hellion drops. Which cost 500/100, 10 supply, the mineral and gas cost of more tech infrastructure, and involves ground units. I think I'm actually becoming a fan of these absurd comparisons. For 350 more minerals you get 4 units that are unaffected by turrets, have a tendency to one shot clumps of workers, are easily replaceable for minerals only, and is not a deviation from standard tech. But that's beside the point. People are already willing to split workers to minimize hellion harass. Why are you against splitting workers when harassed by non-hellions? Well, it's not the only reason, but to get to the essence of the matter - splitting workers is what you do against splash damage, because of splash damage. Not units that are so fast that you send everyone running to the hills to fend for themselves because a single target dps monster is going to swiftly hunt everything down. How does this notion sound legit to you? You have failed to explain why splitting for splash damage harass is totally ok, but splitting vs. fast, high damage single target harass is somehow some unholy abomination. In terms of the countermicro response, they're very similar. I haven't failed to explain so much as that you fail to comprehend and appreciate an existent distinction between these two dynamics that already exists and is well-shown throughout our game as it is. You're blurring contexts and refusing to appreciate the obscurity of a single target unit that is actually so high dps and so fast that the best thing you can do is split. Imagine if DTs were like that. I'm wondering if you're even considering the resource of APM as it pertains to having to split things up into several directions and s end them places. I don't know what kind of godly split you're imagining in your mind, or how easy you think it is. Not to mention that you only have to pay as much money for this as you do, with an oracle, vs what you normally have to pay for hellions or a hellion drop, or a large quantity of banelings. You really don't have a point beyond that it's technically possible for a person to split up workers in response to the presence of harassment. This is very rudimentary, and it's flying in the face of all of the detailed contrast that is being provided for you.
dude, you are complaining that you have to split versus protoss when you already split versus zerg and terran...
And you're complaint is that a 150 gas unit is not expensive enough.
Stop and think.
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On September 26 2013 07:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 07:38 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:34 awesomoecalypse wrote:On September 26 2013 07:32 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 07:22 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 06:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:Oh boy. You think it's reasonable to compare these to mutalisks at all? When someone says "nothing can catch this unit", when the unit is the exact same speed as another unit that fills a similar role for another race, then yes pointing out their equivalent speed is relevant. Obviously there are significant differences, but "OMG a 150/150 harass unit with speed 4 is so imba!!11!" is just not really a supportable statement. So is you thinking that having to do extreme micro as if this is some intense avoid-the-banelings game is now the new way people should be handling 150/150 harass air harass units. Correct, I think an expensive harass unit being effectively neutralized by a single move command given to a whole worker line is silly, and that countermicro should be somewhat more involved than that. Its not like "split your workers when you see an Oracle" is some sort of impossible task. Works for Hellion drops. Which cost 500/100, 10 supply, the mineral and gas cost of more tech infrastructure, and involves ground units. I think I'm actually becoming a fan of these absurd comparisons. For 350 more minerals you get 4 units that are unaffected by turrets, have a tendency to one shot clumps of workers, are easily replaceable for minerals only, and is not a deviation from standard tech. But that's beside the point. People are already willing to split workers to minimize hellion harass. Why are you against splitting workers when harassed by non-hellions? Well, it's not the only reason, but to get to the essence of the matter - splitting workers is what you do against splash damage, because of splash damage. Not units that are so fast that you send everyone running to the hills to fend for themselves because a single target dps monster is going to swiftly hunt everything down. How does this notion sound legit to you? You have failed to explain why splitting for splash damage harass is totally ok, but splitting vs. fast, high damage single target harass is somehow some unholy abomination. In terms of the countermicro response, they're very similar. I haven't failed to explain so much as that you fail to comprehend and appreciate an existent distinction between these two dynamics that already exists and is well-shown throughout our game as it is. You're blurring contexts and refusing to appreciate the obscurity of a single target unit that is actually so high dps and so fast that the best thing you can do is split. Imagine if DTs were like that. I'm wondering if you're even considering the resource of APM as it pertains to having to split things up into several directions and s end them places. I don't know what kind of godly split you're imagining in your mind, or how easy you think it is. Not to mention that you only have to pay as much money for this as you do, with an oracle, vs what you normally have to pay for hellions or a hellion drop, or a large quantity of banelings. You really don't have a point beyond that it's technically possible for a person to split up workers in response to the presence of harassment. This is very rudimentary, and it's flying in the face of all of the detailed contrast that is being provided for you. dude, you are complaining that you have to split versus protoss when you already split versus zerg and terran... And you're complaint is that a 150 gas unit is not expensive enough. Stop and think.
Sorry, but while I'm busy thinking and appreciating all details, you're continuously ignoring them in full while reducing this would-be critical analysis to even further generalized and plainly inaccurate degrees. "You split vs one race, so you split vs the others." If that's the kind of logic you're using to figure out balance, and it seems to be so - I have to stop interacting with you. Nothing personal, you're just observably making less and less sense.
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What about the DTs?!, that was the best bit about the last batch of proposed changes
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On September 26 2013 07:51 paddyz wrote:
What about the DTs?!, that was the best bit about the last batch of proposed changes
It did not go through because of extensive community feedback.
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I hate their speed increases they started since HotS. rather slow everything else down to reduce the pace of the game and make it easier for people to make decisions. As even pros are constantly to slow to react.
Can't wait to see Roaches ignore force fields though and Protoss being just dead and tanks being useless since there is nothing to attack for them until its to late. I mean you can Roach Terran to death already if they don't get tanks. Not worried though since people ignore upgrades like burrow despite it being totally overpowered. But its a trend to not use upgrades that don't directly increase the stats of a unit.
Imo if the game would be slower you could make those type of upgrades pay for themself easier. But they actually increase the pace of the game and it gets even more unlikely that people use things that need control to pay for itself.
Upgrades like Burrow though easily pay for themself already, but no one uses it either way. Leaves me always a bit baffled, as it allows me to be higher then I should on ladder. But atleast there are a few pros that still give me hope and win with stuff like that regularly and funny enough people hating those wins often.
On the bright side, the changes are not as bad as the ones they did in WoL!
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On September 26 2013 07:43 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 07:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 07:38 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:34 awesomoecalypse wrote:On September 26 2013 07:32 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 07:22 Lumi wrote:On September 26 2013 07:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 26 2013 06:48 awesomoecalypse wrote:Oh boy. You think it's reasonable to compare these to mutalisks at all? When someone says "nothing can catch this unit", when the unit is the exact same speed as another unit that fills a similar role for another race, then yes pointing out their equivalent speed is relevant. Obviously there are significant differences, but "OMG a 150/150 harass unit with speed 4 is so imba!!11!" is just not really a supportable statement. So is you thinking that having to do extreme micro as if this is some intense avoid-the-banelings game is now the new way people should be handling 150/150 harass air harass units. Correct, I think an expensive harass unit being effectively neutralized by a single move command given to a whole worker line is silly, and that countermicro should be somewhat more involved than that. Its not like "split your workers when you see an Oracle" is some sort of impossible task. Works for Hellion drops. Which cost 500/100, 10 supply, the mineral and gas cost of more tech infrastructure, and involves ground units. I think I'm actually becoming a fan of these absurd comparisons. For 350 more minerals you get 4 units that are unaffected by turrets, have a tendency to one shot clumps of workers, are easily replaceable for minerals only, and is not a deviation from standard tech. But that's beside the point. People are already willing to split workers to minimize hellion harass. Why are you against splitting workers when harassed by non-hellions? Well, it's not the only reason, but to get to the essence of the matter - splitting workers is what you do against splash damage, because of splash damage. Not units that are so fast that you send everyone running to the hills to fend for themselves because a single target dps monster is going to swiftly hunt everything down. How does this notion sound legit to you? You have failed to explain why splitting for splash damage harass is totally ok, but splitting vs. fast, high damage single target harass is somehow some unholy abomination. In terms of the countermicro response, they're very similar. I haven't failed to explain so much as that you fail to comprehend and appreciate an existent distinction between these two dynamics that already exists and is well-shown throughout our game as it is. You're blurring contexts and refusing to appreciate the obscurity of a single target unit that is actually so high dps and so fast that the best thing you can do is split. Imagine if DTs were like that. I'm wondering if you're even considering the resource of APM as it pertains to having to split things up into several directions and s end them places. I don't know what kind of godly split you're imagining in your mind, or how easy you think it is. Not to mention that you only have to pay as much money for this as you do, with an oracle, vs what you normally have to pay for hellions or a hellion drop, or a large quantity of banelings. You really don't have a point beyond that it's technically possible for a person to split up workers in response to the presence of harassment. This is very rudimentary, and it's flying in the face of all of the detailed contrast that is being provided for you. dude, you are complaining that you have to split versus protoss when you already split versus zerg and terran... And you're complaint is that a 150 gas unit is not expensive enough. Stop and think. Sorry, but while I'm busy thinking and appreciating all details, you're continuously ignoring them in full while reducing this would-be critical analysis to even further generalized and plainly inaccurate degrees. "You split vs one race, so you split vs the others." If that's the kind of logic you're using to figure out balance, and it seems to be so - I have to stop interacting with you. Nothing personal, you're just observably making less and less sense.
Well, being that you first responded with me by talking about the cost of Hellions and then responded to other posters about how hellions have splash and oracles are too fast (Hellions have 4.25 speed making them faster even than these speed oracles) you don't really have an argument.
Hellions move faster
Hellions have splash
Hellions cost less gas
Hellions need less tech diversion
But you are okay with splitting against Hellions than an oracle that needs energy to shoot, can only do it from short range, and dies to single widowmine shot (Banshees require 2 widowmine shots)
So no, you don't have an argument at all.
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On September 26 2013 04:03 DinoMight wrote:
I'm glad the widow mine nerf is not as severe as they originally planned.. seemed a little too much. Also the Oracle range buff is a little better than the cost reduction, but I think 4 speed may be a bit much.
it was .6 vs .5 How big is this anyways? I don't even know if it will do anything at all. I don't think the problem is their splash radius..
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Fantastic op.
As usual protoss gets little and less haha. Admittedly a full on DT buff was a touch extreme.
edit: Lumi showcasing how to stick your fingers into your ears and SHOUT LALLALALALALLA
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EPT![[image loading]](http://cdn.idigitaltimes.com/data/images/full/2013/03/08/6224.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jbBs8xt.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hCb0Rpz.png)
