EPTA Bluelightz Mafia "The Attack" - Page 123
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Onegu
United States9695 Posts
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JarJarDrinks
United States1302 Posts
On July 30 2013 00:42 Onegu wrote: I just don't buy his outrage. Saying that he's gonna policy lynch kirby day 1 if he plays w/ him again doesn't make any sense if he thinks there's a chance he's scum. And if he doesn't think there's a chance he's scum then he shouldn't be considering voting him today.Tg has to be town scum cant be dumb enough to post this. | ||
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FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
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Onegu
United States9695 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
I'm not going to let my policy lynch ruin the game for you two. But you two do need to elevate your scum-hunting game if town is to win. So I'm going to teach one fundamental scum-hunting technique as one last gift. It is the telling difference between townies scum-hunting and scums pushing scum agenda. Personal Notes: Onegu, set aside meta arguments for a moment. The reason for lurky scum meta is because these scum hunting techniques work better with more activity. JarJarDrinks, set aside setup speculation and WIFOM for this. This is a fundamental difference in behavior and unless there are some crazy crazy roles, the fundamentals always hold. Town Scum-hunting + Show Spoiler + First, I'll discuss the look and feel of real scum-hunting. You make a case, you point some fingers, and you wait for counter-arguments. If you feel like your points haven't been addressed or more convincing information pops up. You press on and you vote for lynch. Example: getmoript's TAA accusation series + Show Spoiler + Day 1 Starts http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=12#239 On July 22 2013 05:08 getmoript wrote: Also @whoever's around... What do you think of TAA completely ignoring any sort of points on JJD and barely touching on Tofu? Getmoript eventually gets into a long discussion with austin/Vivax. While it is notable that austin/Vivax is constantly defending TAA, note getmoript's reaction and logic. austin/Vivax http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=17#331 Pushing Oatsmaster over TAA. Getmoript responds http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=17#333 austin/Vivax http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=17#334 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=17#337 Getmoript http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=17#340 austin/Vivax http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=18#341 "TAA seems townie" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=18#345 "I really do not want to lynch him after that last post" getmoript http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=18#348 austin http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=18#351 getmoript http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=18#356 Despite the continuous austinmcc defense, getmoript and is still suspicious and does a night investigation as DT with unknown sanity. Day 2 Getmoript check TAA over night and ambushes with the claim. On July 24 2013 06:18 getmoript wrote: Fuck it. I'm tired of your shit. I'm detective. TAA is red. Go vote. Producing a telling response: On July 24 2013 06:21 TheAwesomeAll wrote: claiming detective instead of making a case is cheating And then the voting piles on happens. ==== This is how a scum case is closed. If you feel like your points have been addressed or new information shows up to change your mind, you back off. This will happen EVEN IF the target under suspicion is actually scum. The strength of a town scum-hunting case change with the situation and the facts. (You must account for players that fail once in a while because of: lack of thought, lack of reading comprehension, or plain ol' Didn't Read.) Example: getmoript's Day1 JarJarDrinks interaction + Show Spoiler + conversation starting here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=10#196 Main Posts: On July 21 2013 14:30 JarJarDrinks wrote: What are you implying here? And I'll assume from the lack of answers to my questions, there isn't anything more to a hydra than what I posted. On July 21 2013 14:42 getmoript wrote: I'm stating that your entry into the thread is convenient considering you're getting called out for lurking and being generally useless. Who is scum JJD? On July 21 2013 15:05 JarJarDrinks wrote: Do you care to hear what I've been doing IRL? I doubt it. My name was first mentioned a while ago. If I waited untill people started voting for me, you would have said the same thing. My entry into the thread isn't suspicious dude. I was asking because I wanted to know. I literally had no idea how they worked untill this game. You're really jumping on me for nonsense. stay tuned On July 21 2013 15:20 JarJarDrinks wrote: Tofu is who I'm most suspicious of right now. His first post sounds like he was just trying to say the towniest thing he could think of. Then he makes his "scum points" post, which I thought was mostly a joke @ first. But he defended it and said he wants to vote based off of it. Like the only thing even remotely scummy here is getmoript saying he doesn't want to interact w/ marv and only barely. @ least 2 or 3 out of his 5 points are obviously not serious posts that he jumps on. Need to sleep now. I'll have more to say tomorrow. On July 21 2013 15:22 getmoript wrote: Talk to me about your thoughts on Tofu and JJD. On July 21 2013 15:24 FiveTouch wrote: Like JJD I really disliked Tofu's scum points post, but unlike JJD I don't want to kill him for it. I think lurkers will cause us more grief than shitflinging late-game, and Tofu's posting will reveal his alignment in the days to come. On July 21 2013 15:27 getmoript wrote: Side note. At some point I need to shadow you to learn how to be nice. Mental reminder. Here getmoript reconsiders JJD suspicion because of getmoript's meta knowledge. Example: JarJarDrink's 4 cops scenario against me. + Show Spoiler + Conversation starts here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=122#2434 Main Content: On July 29 2013 21:48 JarJarDrinks wrote: Proof that TanGeng is mafia OK we have 4 cops getmoript - redcheck on TAA Cora - greencheck on TG tofu - greencheck on TG, greencheck on cora, greencheck on Kirby fivetouch - redcheck on getmoript, redcheck on cora So I think we have to assume we have: 1 legit, 1 insane, 1 naive, 1 paranoid. I think everyone agrees that makes sense. If that's the case, it looks like it's: getmoript = legit, Cora = insane, Tofu = naive, fivetouch = paranoid. Which means: TanGeng = scum ##vote TanGeng JarJarDrinks feels like there is a solid case against me. On July 29 2013 21:51 TanGeng wrote: Counter scenario: getmoript = paranoid, Cora = sane, Tofu = naive, fivetouch = insane. Which means: I'm town I counter with something that contradicts his argument. On July 29 2013 21:59 JarJarDrinks wrote: Bah, I thought I had it. OK, the cop info doesn't really tell us much. ##unvote for now back to rereading Even though I am his main suspect. I posted the counter-scenario and he reconsiders his argument and goes back to other scum-hunting. Example: FiveTouch's Corazon claim questioning + Show Spoiler + The look of genuine scum-hunting is that it should be logical (barring intimidation by other players) and the conclusion fits to the new facts and counter-arguments. If it is a partial case, there some sense of doubt should be coming from the town player. In more advanced play, you'll also have to know what kinds of facts appeal to the particular player in question. Pushing Scum Agenda + Show Spoiler + Pushing scum agenda plays out differently, where scum will have an agenda in mind and grab at facts to fit to the desired outcome. Even if the initial argument is broken and the situation changes, scum will try to re-establish new arguments for the agenda. Sometimes, these arguments will be ridiculous, or silly, or even blatantly anti-town. And scum will ignore counter arguments, make up new reasons, or just plainly rehash the same argument to continue pushing. This is the scummy sort of tunneling. For this I give you FirmTofu's Corazon Day3 lynch sequence. + Show Spoiler + Even before the claim: On July 27 2013 20:09 FiveTouch wrote: Just one more note on Cora, and this is to Firm especially. Presumably Corazon would be claiming to save his scumbuddy, TAA. There's a couple things to note about that. 1) he's going head to head with getmoript, someone already viewed as significantly more townie than Corazon. Already the chances of winning that battle are pretty small 2) EVEN if he did win that battle, getmoript gets lynched and flips detective. But then that gives away *both* TAA and Corazon. The net of it being that even in the *best case* scenario for Corazon, he's trading 1 townie for 2 mafia. Seems terribly unlikely, no? 5T warns against the case for Corazon as scum. We start with the claim. On July 28 2013 04:04 FirmTofu wrote: Alright, I gave myself a 12:00 deadline to post this. I've only delayed it this long because I wanted to see where the votes go before my reveal. I was also hoping for the off chance that people would lynch Cora without me having to reveal. I am the Detective! I have the exact same role pm as getmoript. Night 1, I checked TAA. Result: Town Night 2, I checked Cora. Result: Town This should answer a few questions for you. Why did I defend TAA with "weirdness" for so long? Because I got a town check on him. If you have any additional questions, please ask. I'm either a naive cop or a defective cop that gets everything wrong. I'm leaning toward defective. I want to lynch Cora. 3 cops in this town? Highly unlikely. I am a DT and agenda is lynch Cora! On July 28 2013 04:17 FiveTouch wrote: So annoying doing this via phone at a party. I believe this claim because we are also a detective, we have red checks on getmo and Cora. If I were to speculate, I'd say we had 4 cops with a different sanity each. The combination of our and firm's checks means Cora is probably town though Marv 5T also claims DT; says Cora is probably town. On July 28 2013 04:22 FirmTofu wrote: Oh damn. Okay hold on, I'm going to have to think about this for a bit. Agenda derail? So far still looks like town DT claim & scum-hunting at this point. On July 28 2013 04:29 FirmTofu wrote: The problem with this theory is that Cora didn't claim detective. He claimed investigator. I'm like 100% sure Cora is scum at this point. Agenda is back! 100% sure. Also 100% superficial. (also Cora does explicitly claim Detective). On July 28 2013 04:30 FiveTouch wrote: Imo we lynch outside the claims because I believe them all. We probably die tonight but the other two cops should be able to confirm their sanities. 5T's town plan is to confirm sanities On July 28 2013 06:11 FirmTofu wrote: Well, scum is currently voting for me. It all comes down to whether JJD or kirby will vote me or them. We need a majority on either one to win this game and that means you need to vote one of them as well. I will not be voting kirby today. Remember not kirby, today. On July 28 2013 06:34 FirmTofu wrote: Instead of all of us wasting our checks... why don't we lynch Cora and see what our cop sanity is based on his flip? that way we'll know whether the two cops can find scum the following night. It's a win-win. A get information plan! That lynches Cora! On July 28 2013 06:44 FirmTofu wrote: So your whole case against me rests on the timing. Holy hypocrisy. You think the timing of your claim isn't scummy when it brought getmoript's claim and accusation of TAA into question, but when I claim as kirby is gaining votes, I'm suddenly scum? Trying to draw a parallel to Corazon claim? Here's Corazon's Claim sequence + Show Spoiler + CORA explicitly claims detective here On July 24 2013 06:21 FiveTouch wrote: Are you serious? Are you sane? (as in, cop sane) On July 24 2013 06:34 cDgCorazon wrote: Because having two sane cops in an 12 player setup is ridiculously town favored. On July 24 2013 07:02 TanGeng wrote: If town indeed has these power roles, we'll most likely be dealing with a miller or a godfather. Notice Corazon gets derailed quickly, but never reasserts his agenda. This is how a town claim works. If it meets resistance, the agenda is discarded. On July 28 2013 07:35 TanGeng wrote: It's a terrible plan. Scum kill the only useful DT remaining. This is a terrible plan. The information play is actually a terrible anti-town plan. After this Tofu's filter is filled with nothing else about Cora as scum. Do you see Tofu get derailed from the agenda? Do you see Tofu pick the agenda back up? 5T already posts some warning analysis. The case is quite flimpsy. Is it willful ignorance / scum agenda pushing? To me this feels very different from how scum-hunting and a town counterclaims works. Contrast with how Corazon's counter-claim played out. Once the possibility that there could be multiple cops was suggested, he puts his initial "You're lying reaction aside." As for my tunneling of Vivax and FirmTofu, my arguments posted days ago remain unaddressed. + Show Spoiler + FirmTofu http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=94#1880 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=95#1885 Vivax/austinmcc in support http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=98#1960 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420356¤tpage=99#1962 However, this is not a fool-proof way to pick apart scum and town. Good scum players will make their agenda pushing look like town scum-hunting as much as possible. But town scum-hunting will always look like town scum-hunting. Feel free to see if you can find other conversations in this game that feels like scum agenda pushing. You two can decide whether or not this is a worthy technique, whether or not Tofu looks like he is pushing scum agenda, and whether or not you will vote my really solid scum reads, Vivax and FirmTofu. If there are 3 votes on either Vivax or FirmTofu at the deadline tomorrow, I will hammer them down. If instead, one of you still want to vote jrkirby and there are 3 or more votes on jrkirby, I promise to cast a policy lynch vote on jrkirby. And I fully expect to go into an endgame with scum victory. Basically I will provide the 4th vote on any one of jrkirby, FirmTofu, or Vivax. I also hope we don't go to no-lynch, as I would like to end this game as soon as possible. Onegu, JarJarDrinks. Balls in your court. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
Any time. Any situation. Anybody. That gives it teeth. | ||
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Onegu
United States9695 Posts
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JarJarDrinks
United States1302 Posts
Maybe vivax but I don't really think so. Right now I'm guessing it's between you, kirby and Onegu. What tofu says makes sense about you soft-bussing kirby. What you're basically saying is that you want the town to vote tofu or vivax. But you'll go ahead and throw your vote on kirby when your vote wont matter anymore. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
On July 30 2013 12:29 JarJarDrinks wrote: @TG, I'm not totally sure about vivax, but I'm 100% sure about tofu now that 5T is dead. Tofu just couldn't make the claim he made as scum. I'm not getting all into the reasons why this has to be true becaue I already posted enough about it. But there's just no way he can be mafia w/ his claim. period. Are you sure the argument is not WIFOM? If you say it's suicidal as scum and then use that to justify not lynching him, is it really suicidal? | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
As long as one of you votes for jrkirby, I'm there. As for doubts about whether or not I'm serious about policy lynching my teammate at MYLO and going against my Win-Con. I'm deadly seriously about it. It will happen. | ||
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Onegu
United States9695 Posts
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Vivax
21682 Posts
He suggests me and FT are scum. I didn't particularly like FT's reaction after Cora flipped, but his DT claim seemed rather unnecessary, I'll have a look at his previous play and see if it makes sense. As for me, I'm not scum. Basically, if jrkirby is scum, this is game over for TG. | ||
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Vivax
21682 Posts
I might have to rethink FirmTofu. | ||
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Vivax
21682 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On July 21 2013 07:48 TheAwesomeAll wrote: Hey guys look at my townie townieness im talking about being a good townie so i must be a good townie right? FirmTofu gets what this game is about, just talk about how good of a townie you are and spam your post count up! Also this new hydra thing is anoying as hell. On July 21 2013 08:00 FirmTofu wrote: Fluff=bad You get scum points, sir. Why can't both hydras be town? You get scum points, sir. Why would you want to glean information from only one half of the hydra? Why are you asking for less information to work with? You get scum points, sir. You claimed scum. You get scum points, sir. You think Austin is town but you don't explain what makes you think that why. Why say it at all? You get scum points, sir. On July 21 2013 08:04 FirmTofu wrote: I have 3 posts in the entire thread. Someone's angry about something. On July 21 2013 23:06 TheAwesomeAll wrote: this post is so weird, fake outrage from nowhere, no real message "plz only shoot the mafia", if i could i would lynch only geript but for now ##vote: getmoript would do. Im fairly sure either FiveTouch or getmoript is scum but since they attacked each other a bunch its probably not both, and since FT has been doing the attacking and getmoript has been backpaddeling as soon as he gets any heat im leaning towards him. | ||
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Onegu
United States9695 Posts
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Vivax
21682 Posts
Tofu's D1 play was god awful, I'm currently @ P17. The point where he posted those lists and picked a random dude, ugh. It doesn't sit right with me at all how TAA attacks him early, FT ignores him, and TAA's attacks have no followup. Rayn, the NK, also had a hard-on for lynching him. | ||
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Vivax
21682 Posts
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Vivax
21682 Posts
On July 23 2013 04:11 jrkirby wrote: Ok, I read the thread, and I still think oats is scum. But shit... I kinda caused a no lynch to happen. Really sorry guys. If only I had read tangeng's filter faster. I still haven't read it, but I guess I got plenty of time to do that now. I have even more scumread on oats than I did before. I'm not sure about DrH, I'd prefer to see how he plays tonight and tomorrow before I come to a conclusion on him. Jeez this guy. | ||
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Onegu
United States9695 Posts
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Vivax
21682 Posts
On July 23 2013 08:35 FirmTofu wrote: The whole bit where people attack Oats for not giving a shit is a waste of time. Whether you attack him or not, he isn't going to start suddenly giving a shit. Vigi him if you have to. Stop wasting time talking to him. For the lynch tomorrow, TG is the only viable choice. He's been scummy all game long and needs to be exterminated. His death would also provide us invaluable information about jrk and DrH, maybe even Oats. As for where discussion should go..., I think we should be talking about people like TAA and JJD, maybe rayn as well. There are people who are currently sitting in the null-scum territory for me and are likely to scumslip when pressured. I'm going to go through their filters and see if I can find some dirt on them. This post isn't very good. It's inconclusive, althuogh it doesn't automatically try to damn Zeph for what he did. I don't like that it isn't opinionated at all though. On July 23 2013 06:44 jrkirby wrote: Ok, well I see it this way: Zeph didn't post at all, meaning it wasn't purposeful lurking, he just was completely AFK. That tells me nothing about alignment. The post you quoted in particular shows a town perspective overview of the thread, but isn't enough for me to get a solid read on him yet. I really have to see how he acts during day 2, and doubt that he would make a good day 2 lynch unless his play becomes absolutely terrible. This one is for you, Onegu. Tell me what you think of this, knowing your own alignment. On July 23 2013 10:51 TanGeng wrote: Really? Scum would refuse a mislynch served on a platter for them? Especially with how Geript blew up at DocH for that. Sheeping as scum would be the lowest risk play ever. Just do it and continue to fly under the radar. DocH is very unlikely to be scum, ok!? Your idea is that scum takes a shot at saving a town and while preserving lynch-bait? Weight the risks and rewards, there. Look at the heat on DocH. It's not even close. Continuing soon | ||
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