|
On February 20 2013 07:52 geript wrote:
Mocsta, well played. I think you really aimed Cora pretty well. I think the major thing that killing me N1 did was allow you to control the town directive without appearing in charge. I think you had a number of really good posts. It's just hard to read anyone when so many people lurk so hard.
While you're here can I ask you why you are mad at me and never want to play with me again?
|
United Kingdom36156 Posts
too many players in this post-game blaming town's failure on others and not themselves.
|
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On February 20 2013 04:48 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:41 thrawn2112 wrote:if you're trying to suggest that mafia didn't deserve the win, or that you yourself are above how you've generalized all of town's play then you're quite wrong  i could feel your rage after the silly D1 lynch and thought you were town because of it, but with your "this town is terrible" attitude you put on for the rest of the game you were definitely contributing to the negative town atmosphere I didn't see a way to make town play decently, so I got super lazy. I'm aware this isn't good town play. I still don't see a way I could have won the game (esp. not with this setup). I'm honestly not bitter about losing anymore, (although I was sour for a bit), but I'm curious as to real suggestions as to how I could have pursued a victory as well as some thoughts as to how town in general can hope to ever win in a 9-3-1 setup.
Rock Band, where SK shot at town every night he was alive.
|
Prob was just a heat of the moment comment corazon. Tensions run high whilst playing
Hmmm well Ima be taking a break from Mafia. good luck to all those migrating to non newbies. The lurking is just as hard over there and can really shit u to tears.
I'm obviously still known for terrible reads but can say from being Mafia the only time I felt under pressure was when when the SK case came out. So what I am saying is. Many of the things in was spewing which looked like contributions were actually not.
When I was setting up ppl I took worse case scenarios to paint ppl red, even though early game I was advocating looking at both sides to discern bad townie from scum.
I think if overall u guys challenged ppls reads more.. Would have lead to more pressure. in particular sevryn would have disintegrated. I think town severely lacked that critical thought and for what ever reason had a tendency to just ignore posts with logic they didn't agree with. This is not conducive towards good scum hunting
With this new in game experience. Next time I roll town I am going to make a habit to break down ppl logic when presented, as though bad logic is not indicative of scum. The follow up pressure I think can lead to slips and back tracking.
With all that said. We were very lucky mandalor came through with a hero vote to not be mod killed. I think in general though his activity level was unacceptable regardless of IRL issues and he should been chopped much earlier.
Best of luck for future games
|
United Kingdom36156 Posts
hey, stick around Mocsta.
|
On February 20 2013 08:27 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:48 Sn0_Man wrote:On February 20 2013 04:41 thrawn2112 wrote:if you're trying to suggest that mafia didn't deserve the win, or that you yourself are above how you've generalized all of town's play then you're quite wrong i could feel your rage after the silly D1 lynch and thought you were town because of it, but with your "this town is terrible" attitude you put on for the rest of the game you were definitely contributing to the negative town atmosphere I didn't see a way to make town play decently, so I got super lazy. I'm aware this isn't good town play. I still don't see a way I could have won the game (esp. not with this setup). I'm honestly not bitter about losing anymore, (although I was sour for a bit), but I'm curious as to real suggestions as to how I could have pursued a victory as well as some thoughts as to how town in general can hope to ever win in a 9-3-1 setup. Rock Band, where SK shot at town every night he was alive.
Or Acme: while town did lose, they/we had plenty of opportunities to win.
|
On February 20 2013 08:24 marvellosity wrote:
too many players in this post-game blaming town's failure on others and not themselves.
Meh. I don't really care what you think, if the obs QT has their leading scum candidate at MYLO as our only remaining blue role and for most of the game (although not at the very end) I'm the only person on every town list around then I'm content with my play. I know I'm not the best at discerning who is scum, but If I can prove myself town early and have stuff to work with I feel like my contribution to town is acceptable. Could I have played better Day 3? duh... but it wouldn't change anything barring super scumhunting techniques that I simply don't possess.
On February 20 2013 08:27 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:48 Sn0_Man wrote:On February 20 2013 04:41 thrawn2112 wrote:if you're trying to suggest that mafia didn't deserve the win, or that you yourself are above how you've generalized all of town's play then you're quite wrong i could feel your rage after the silly D1 lynch and thought you were town because of it, but with your "this town is terrible" attitude you put on for the rest of the game you were definitely contributing to the negative town atmosphere I didn't see a way to make town play decently, so I got super lazy. I'm aware this isn't good town play. I still don't see a way I could have won the game (esp. not with this setup). I'm honestly not bitter about losing anymore, (although I was sour for a bit), but I'm curious as to real suggestions as to how I could have pursued a victory as well as some thoughts as to how town in general can hope to ever win in a 9-3-1 setup. Rock Band, where SK shot at town every night he was alive.
Wherein you had a knowable setup and wildly better roles in general as town. Plus town clearly played well and nailed scum non-stop, including getting the RB N2.
Contrasted with a newbie setup which was not deducible, which had substantially weaker roles, and which had 2 replacements after night 1. In which you have such quality plays as voting for a clearly unlynchable 0-vote lurker as town because you don't want to look scummy.
I will cede the point that you did, in fact, win a town game with 9-3-1 though.
|
United Kingdom36156 Posts
you don't have to care what i think, but you have to accept responsibility for your losses, regardless of whether there are lurkers or whatever.
there was only one mafia pushing any objectives at all really (Mocsta) so if even 2 town players made a concerted push on the eminently catchable mafia, mafia could have been lynched.
This game was perfectly within town's hands, lurkers or no. The fact is, town mislynched repeatedly despite the opportunities to find scum. Mafia played well but it's not like they were completely hidden or anything.
|
On February 20 2013 08:55 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 08:24 marvellosity wrote:
too many players in this post-game blaming town's failure on others and not themselves. Meh. I don't really care what you think, if the obs QT has their leading scum candidate at MYLO as our only remaining blue role and for most of the game (although not at the very end) I'm the only person on every town list around then I'm content with my play. I know I'm not the best at discerning who is scum, but If I can prove myself town early and have stuff to work with I feel like my contribution to town is acceptable. Could I have played better Day 3? duh... but it wouldn't change anything barring super scumhunting techniques that I simply don't possess. Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 08:27 marvellosity wrote:On February 20 2013 04:48 Sn0_Man wrote:On February 20 2013 04:41 thrawn2112 wrote:if you're trying to suggest that mafia didn't deserve the win, or that you yourself are above how you've generalized all of town's play then you're quite wrong i could feel your rage after the silly D1 lynch and thought you were town because of it, but with your "this town is terrible" attitude you put on for the rest of the game you were definitely contributing to the negative town atmosphere I didn't see a way to make town play decently, so I got super lazy. I'm aware this isn't good town play. I still don't see a way I could have won the game (esp. not with this setup). I'm honestly not bitter about losing anymore, (although I was sour for a bit), but I'm curious as to real suggestions as to how I could have pursued a victory as well as some thoughts as to how town in general can hope to ever win in a 9-3-1 setup. Rock Band, where SK shot at town every night he was alive. Wherein you had a knowable setup and wildly better roles in general as town. Plus town clearly played well and nailed scum non-stop, including getting the RB N2. Contrasted with a newbie setup which was not deducible, which had substantially weaker roles, and which had 2 replacements after night 1. In which you have such quality plays as voting for a clearly unlynchable 0-vote lurker as town because you don't want to look scummy. I will cede the point that you did, in fact, win a town game with 9-3-1 though.
Please, Sn0, tell me how you really feel. Newbie games exist for a reason, bro.
|
On February 20 2013 08:55 Sn0_Man wrote:
if the obs QT has their leading scum candidate at MYLO as our only remaining blue role and for most of the game (although not at the very end) I'm the only person on every town list around then I'm content with my play. I know I'm not the best at discerning who is scum, but If I can prove myself town early and have stuff to work with I feel like my contribution to town is acceptable.
I didn't see a way to make town play decently, so I got super lazy. I'm aware this isn't good town play. I still don't see a way I could have won the game (esp. not with this setup).
I am repeating what you alluded to above, but wanted to state it more explicitly
.
Town win as a collective.
One person stepping up "being established as innocent" does not mean town as a collective is doing anything right.
Though you suggest you didnt have the tools to be a great scum hunter; or town motivator... you still had the capability to read the thread and pressure SOMEBODY in general.
That was lacking from your play (long weekend or not); and as the main confirmed town read I believe it was your responsibility to create a sense a direction for town - whether right or wrong.
(and me to fight you )
For example, when TestSubject became "confirmed town" he tried to create a direction, and was promptly killed..
though you were "near confirmed" town, you were never a threat enough to be considered seriously for the NK.. thats a HUGE problem.
|
I'll say it again, D2 was fun for me! <3
|
|
|
United Kingdom36156 Posts
glad to hear it. I am very very fond of people who try a lot.
|
On February 20 2013 09:06 WaveofShadow wrote:
Please, Sn0, tell me how you really feel. Newbie games exist for a reason, bro.
?
Just commenting that maybe a 2-mislynch = instaloss type setup might be bad for newbie games featuring such plays. I know you have learned from it, and I'm fine with that. I don't hold it against you any more than any other play made by others that ended up with the impossibility of town victory (despite marv the clairvoyant being able to solve any game).
|
On February 20 2013 09:11 ObviousOne wrote:
I'll say it again, D2 was fun for me! <3
Probably the best part of the game for me too actually. That kind of setup stuff is what interests me the most about mafia. And your posts were pretty golden.
|
Either way, I'm not contributing any more so I think I should prolly stop posting here...
|
meh... the nicest way I can put this is that if you blame everyone and everything except yourself, you will never improve
|
GG guys,
Something I thought and I am not sure if this is true, but unless you happen to pressure the right lurker immediately it is easier to find the one or two scum that aren't lurking. Because finding scum between three equally lurking lurkers is hard. (unless they happen to all be scum) If you pressure all then the non lurking scum can be found by how they react sometimes however.
Also the sly lynch was unanimous, should have been alarm bells.
|
On February 20 2013 09:38 JacobStrangelove wrote:
Also the sly lynch was unanimous, should have been alarm bells.
So was the SK lynch
I thought Syl was put into a "damned if you do; damned it you don't" situation of being forced to make a case on someone active; when in fact, he made a case on someone he thought was scum (and was right).
Town knowing the severity of the lynch situation; should have really questioned Sylencia defense/cases with more scrutinty.
Instead I was the first (and only... since I wrote Sevryn cases for him) one to respond; and obviously manipulated Sylecnia points against him. This could have been easily refuted - in my opinion.
|
Analysis
Day 1
Most of day 1 was quite okay for town. There were some interesting discussions (and some useless ones), but some things stood out to me that distracted townies.
1. Warbaby
Warbaby entered the thread in a rather wishy washy manner. His opening post was fine, but when someone called him out for trying to hitch a free ride on the previous game, his defense was less than stellar. However, this was fine: he argued himself out of the lynch and started some counter-pressure. Nevertheless, I never really knew what warbaby's reads were, particularly on mocsta: he seemed to be on the right track, but never made up his mind and this showed in the thread. If you need help making up your mind, that's fine, but you can use that to your advantage. Push your read. Push other people to give their opinions about the person you're trying to figure out. As is, there were some thoughts about mocsta, but mocsta is never under any real pressure. This was unfortunate, because warbaby wasn't the only one to have his doubts about mocsta.
2. geript and his "chainsaw defense"
Mocsta started it, but some other people ran with it. This was such a bogus trumped up case that I was amazed it gained any traction at all. It ties in nicely to some stuff that happens later in the game, when people went nuts with association cases on unflipped members of the town.
Chainsaw defense, at most, is an associative tell. It doesn't work until you flip someone involved. In general, chainsaw defenses aren't a good scumtell. They are often townies with town reads on one another. As was the case in this situation.
3. soft claims, blue claims and nameclaims
Mocsta nameclaimed and this went completely unnoticed. Why did Mocsta nameclaim? What purpose did it serve? Why wasn't he asked about this? Especially, because at the same time, town was harping on about warbaby's claim. All warbaby really did was claim that he was town: he worded it strangely, but it really only said "I'm town and won't disclose my actual role in this town".
4. the fake case
Zarepath's fake case: do not make fake cases. This was a terrible idea. If you thought warbaby was town, that's fine. However, apparently you thought WoS was town as well, yet made a case against him "for funsies". Why? What's the point of making a case against someone you have as a town read? Dig a bit deeper and find someone you think might actually be scum. Pressure THAT person instead of running a risk that your town read will be lynched. Even if you didn't have any scum reads, doing this is a bad idea. Instead, you could have written clearly why you thought warbaby was town. You force a townie to respond to your case, and anybody who follows up on it, which is time he is not pressuring people or scumhunting. It also means that either your, or his, position in town is compromised: if the case is good, people think he's scum. If the case is bad, they think you are either bad or scum. Either way, you are not getting anywhere in the main objective of town: catching the scummers.
This can, and would have, come back to bite you later on in the game: while people were still focusing on the lurkers, I remember reading in N2 or D3 that the fake case is not a townie thing to do, and that person was right.
5. the lynch
While glurio was not a good lynch, it was bound to happen (whether on glurio or anyone else). Consolidation never happened and 3 votes is never going to be enough to lynch a scummer. Hilariously, scum actually had to commit 2 out of the 3 votes to get glurio lynched. If town had had it a bit better together and gotten their organization straight a bit earlier, a Sevryn lynch *might* have happened, but D1 was a shouting match. Mocsta was obviously having a ball, because as scum inciting everybody against each other is great. However, the townies involved (particularly Cora) needed to take a step back and think more. Geript said it quite well:
On February 12 2013 15:53 geript wrote:Sure. I got back to rereading and still thought Cora and Mocsta are getting away with bs and stopped. I haven't gone back and reworked the read so it's staying there. Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 15:16 Mocsta wrote:
Umm.. how about instead of making witty quips; you expound on what you think is the issue at hand.
The attitude you are taking, serves nothing but to incite emotions. Attitude I'm espousing? If you and Cora can't realize how you two have essentially been "My way or the highway" this whole game, then you have no idea how to promote healthy conversation. I'd even go so far as you're not even actually interested in having conversation period; my read of you is that you're more interested in having people reflect back to you what you're already saying in one term or another. IE: I'm happy to have people improve my cases but not anyone else's. But for me to start a case looking for help and feedback is a bad thing, but for you it's peachy keen. That's just a bunch of bung. I'll give you credit for both having an agenda to push, but I'm not sold that it's in the towns favor in the slightest. Quite frankly, I have no interest in playing with either of you again and am far more interested in being replaced than finishing this game out.
Sure, suspicion is a good thing, but as it was, there were 9 townies with 9 egos and nobody was seriously considering each others' ideas. Mocsta did well to take full advantage of this.
@geript: you asked me pre-game to watch for cogent, coherent and concise posts by you. Here is where I thought you made a good post:
+ Show Spoiler [mocsta pressure] +On February 12 2013 01:11 geript wrote:I do think warbaby is town. On points 1 and 2: While this is a newbie game, I don't think that taking his townie claim or referencing 36 as anything other than a null read. Sorry, but I'm not seeing the point you're making in 4 either. As I read: Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 13:54 warbaby wrote:
Since we've both posted plenty, how about we not post for a while? more as trying to get the town as a whole involved rather than have Mcosta posting incessantly as he has been. While I agree on point 3, that warbaby hasn't really partaken in scum hunting, I don't think that this is a good measure of town v scum 6 hours into D1. To be honest, your case feels more like a gag. My concern would moreso be Mocsta. 1. He seems unconcerned as to who to throw towards the vote While some may read it as him aggressively trying to test the town, I read his posts and various switches and tests as just trying to see where he can gain traction. As well, he jumps on the first person having any real traction. 2. He doesn't even read his own posts First, he calls Warbaby's generic opening scummy when it's null at best. Next he tacks on his own important notes, and finally he calls Warbaby's initial post null. 3. He has diarrhea of the keyboard Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 09:55 Mocsta wrote:
Post consolidation definitely important. No need to hear every thought. But this is no excuse for lurking either. Additionally, he brings ups the post consolidation point which he actively avoids. Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 09:52 Mocsta wrote:
Did not realise 4 people represented a majority in this game.
Why dont you give others a chance to post their own thoughts instead of trying to forcefully influence them before they have spoken.
Are you trying for a dictatorship here or something? Here he's accusing me, in effect, of running for mayor all while pushing his RNG agenda heavily. Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 14:15 Mocsta wrote:\
I thought you said you were going to take a break from posting anyways.... Blames warbaby for coming back to post 2 times after 'taking a break' when Mocsta has posted 8. At best, all this comes off as unintentional bad play. At worst it's an overexcited scum player. I find the latter more believable and either way I feel better about lynching him currently than lynching a lurker.
Unfortunately, this post got completely ignored, as it brought up some good points on a scummer! geript himself came under a bit of pressure at the time and mocsta got to nonchalantly shrug off the case. Is everything in here a scumtell? No. However, point 1 was an important one and more pressure on point 3 might have tamed the thread a bit!
@sn0_man: I was really surprised at the lack of a nosy neighbour claim. In the end it made no difference: you were never under any real suspicion. However, the point of the self-aware nosy neighbour was exactly the same as the self-aware miller in WBG's setups: claim that shit! It is very dangerous to counterclaim for a scum as if there's 2 claims town will almost certainly lynch one of them and it puts them immediately in the spotlight. Without a counterclaim, you're not completely confirmed town, but given the danger of claiming miller for a scum, you're well on your way. Additionally, you make yourself a NK target (and thus also a potential watcher target) and ensure the tracker doesn't bother with you.
Day 2
Day 2 was basically a wasted day for town. Which is really unfortunate, as there were some real nice tidbits. What could have gone better:
1. TestSubject's claim
The moment I saw the actions, I knew it was going to happen and I was hoping against hope it wouldn't. It's not just a newbie thing, btw: TL players in general seem quite bad at both playing as, and dealing with, blue roles. Anyway, at the time I made a comment to Dandel Ion:
If TestUser is clever he will see this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17788877and immediately recognize it as the SK claiming. It is a woefully bad post. However, in this case, TestUser could just sit on it if he realizes he tracked the SK and not the scum hitman. This terrible post might end up saving the SK's life until later in the game. That would be kinda funny. Still, an uncovered SK is a dead SK.
Why would town want to save the SK's life? Well, the point is that if you claim your blue role, you:
1. Die or get roleblocked into infinity (unless you're playing in LIX)
2. Stop any scumhunting from happening, because the lynch target is set.
This is exactly what happened. It was doubly unfortunate, because the claim actually caused Mocsta to pretty much claim scum twice. Particularly the first time was rather obvious:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17789287
Town, at this point, has no way of knowing OO isn't scum. All they know is that he was (apparently) tracked to WoS. Mocsta immediately concludes he must be the SK without thinking about scum at all.
I really hoped someone would catch him and push him hard (maybe even cause the lynch to move to him). At the time it would be far better to lynch Mocsta than an outed SK.
What happened instead is that Sevryn caught onto the scumclaim and ran some excellent interference. While Mocsta's defense to the attack was somewhat half-arsed: it was an aggressive deflection and no actual reasoning (obviously not, because it was an actual scumslip), it served to 1. dissuade townies from making the same observation as it was dealt with and 2. distance Sevryn from Mocsta.
I was very positivitely impressed by the two replacements, OO and TS on D2. While OO dealt badly with the tracking (see obsQT for about 1000 reasons why the claim was bad), he tried to push town back to scumhunting and pretty much nobody responded. TS was one of the few who was actually still trying.
Someone else already pointed it out (and I made a long post in the obsQT about it), but Cora's "lets not make cases, because they will be forgotten" was 100% the opposite of what should have been happening.
2. The scumplan.
Here was my response to Dandel Ion:
Let me get this straight: they have a mylo with a super-easy town lynch ahead of them, and their plan is to:
1. Not shoot tonight (thereby missing mylo and giving town a freebie lynch)
2. Bus a scummer
WADDAFUQ?! I wanna see this happen. I really really do. It will be hilarious.
It was honestly one of the worst plans I have ever seen and you guys are lucky VE was around to tell you so
Day 3
By now there was no way town was going to win, barring a miracle (such as Mandalor getting himself modkilled). The scumteam didn't even have to do much to ensure that out of the 3 kings of lurk, they lynched the town lurker. More critical though was required and it was quite obvious this was not going to happen, with sn0 and zarepath pretty much giving up on the game.
Nevertheless, when people posted, they got completely shut down: instead of being grateful that Sylencia was finally posting, he got shat on. This gives a scum lurker a GREAT excuse to just bugger off again: any townie lurker would be discouraged from posting too! How can you distinguish between a town lurker and a scum lurker? It's very very hard, but being hostile and bossy will achieve exactly one thing: a bad environment in which no useful contribution is made.
I didn't get the feeling that anybody was filter diving and critically analysing the players to make sure you got the right one. Mandalor and Sevryn were never in any danger of being lynched and no matter what Sylencia said, he was going to be lynched. This is not the right attitude for mylo. Townies need to be actively figuring things out: keep your town reads for now, but make sure you are really convinced about your lynch candidate: really look at your null and other scum reads. Try to find the town and scum motivations for what they're doing. Sylencia's double roleblock claim had a scum explanation, but the town explanation was far simpler. Ockham's Razor is almost always your friend. Especially when you have so many dubious players to look at.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
