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I have already briefly discussed my reasoning for Djo. And since reassessing my reads I have seen no reason for removing him.
phagga - Again not a strong read. He fits my selection criteria of a semi-lurker who shows interest in scumhunting and has his own train of thought for how to go about selecting a candidate...
Indeed phagga does not have as much of a track record as I would consider ideal in making a read in a normal game, but for this particular setup he is not being as active as would be ideal for mafia. That was a part of my train of thought in choosing him. Presently the challenge has been differentiating town from scum and that has been harder with the "townhunting" system. This is the system I have devised to increase the chances of picking town this cycle. I am open to hearing other suggestions, but as it currently stands this would be an ideal team for my selection criteria.
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On November 22 2012 22:06 marvellosity wrote:
Clarity, you know very well I have an extremely low tolerance threshold for stupidity.
You and me both, although the difference is I say stupid things myself sometimes. Like I said, never mind, it's just the ordering that turned me off.
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On November 22 2012 22:11 goodkarma wrote:
I have already briefly discussed my reasoning for Djo. And since reassessing my reads I have seen no reason for removing him.
phagga - Again not a strong read. He fits my selection criteria of a semi-lurker who shows interest in scumhunting and has his own train of thought for how to go about selecting a candidate...
Indeed phagga does not have as much of a track record as I would consider ideal in making a read in a normal game, but for this particular setup he is not being as active as would be ideal for mafia. That was a part of my train of thought in choosing him. Presently the challenge has been differentiating town from scum and that has been harder with the "townhunting" system. This is the system I have devised to increase the chances of picking town this cycle. I am open to hearing other suggestions, but as it currently stands this would be an ideal team for my selection criteria.
So you think the benefits of you knowing (from your perspective) you are town but unable to make strong townreads outweighs the risk that another candidate is not town, but is capable of making strong townreads?
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For all those who are still distrustful of me:
You are certainly entitled to distrust me. I spent a good portion of the opening of this game discussing mechanics and not really so much reads. However, I would like to point out that I have since then:
1) Established a system of greater transparency for who is selected. It is very likely all we'd discuss is party leader, and not the corresponding parties, if I hadn't stepped in. Further, I have shown exactly why this is the best approach...
2) I have been proactive about demonstrating exactly why it is I have chosen who I have and my line of reasoning. Further, I have been (and continue to be) willing to change my platform if compelling evidence can be brought to my attention that a candidate is a weak choice.
3) The only reason I have pursued a party leader position this cycle is that the alternatives I feel at this point do not have trustworthy platforms. I am not trusting of Kita, nor at this point am I content with sending sandroba.
4) I have actually been active this game... If you were to look at any of my scum games, you would notice that I am not nearly this proactive when I play scum. You have discussed prior how it would be absolutely great if we had a candidate that had an easily recognizable town vs. scum game. Well, your welcome.
I will not be submitting my party until I leave for Thanksgiving lunch/dinner late tomorrow morning. I look forward to hearing your opinions on my party, and replying to them in a few hours. But until then, I'm getting a few hours' rest.
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Please answer me before you go
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On November 22 2012 22:25 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 22:11 goodkarma wrote:
I have already briefly discussed my reasoning for Djo. And since reassessing my reads I have seen no reason for removing him.
phagga - Again not a strong read. He fits my selection criteria of a semi-lurker who shows interest in scumhunting and has his own train of thought for how to go about selecting a candidate...
Indeed phagga does not have as much of a track record as I would consider ideal in making a read in a normal game, but for this particular setup he is not being as active as would be ideal for mafia. That was a part of my train of thought in choosing him. Presently the challenge has been differentiating town from scum and that has been harder with the "townhunting" system. This is the system I have devised to increase the chances of picking town this cycle. I am open to hearing other suggestions, but as it currently stands this would be an ideal team for my selection criteria.
So you think the benefits of you knowing (from your perspective) you are town but unable to make strong townreads outweighs the risk that another candidate is not town, but is capable of making strong townreads?
From what I've seen the other candidates have not made strong townreads.
Okay, now I'm going to bed...
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Read through Oats' filter more carefully, which is honestly rather painful to do. It is bubbly, it is fluffy and it is hard to decide what is going on inside his mind. He just seems really really energetic.
I recognize that this is a town quality for some. Players like Sandro and Palmar just give up the minute they see the red name in the role PM. Risk.nuke did a similar thing with SK last game. However, being energetic and excited in your first game ever is NOT a town trait: it is a trait of being excited.
That brings us to the content of his posts... and frankly this is a problem. There seems to be very little train-of-thought and a LOT of requiring confirmation from players that he feels are better than him. This could be insecurity, because it's his first game, or it could be scum trying to get town queues that he is on the right track.
His case on Clarity is not too good and he harps on about it a bit, but I don't feel this is alignment indicative. More problematic is his stance on Toad.
I am still unclear why he thinks that he can get a read on Toad. He has no experience playing with him and has been warned, repeatedly, that Toad is wiley. His reasons:
On November 22 2012 01:24 Oatsmaster wrote:Now I have to get his filter again, thanks Acro.. Yes I dont know Toad, he was basically given a slot in the game so I assume that he is some what proficient in the game of mafia. 1. I dont think that a scum would start his OPENING post with a scumread. 2. I think that its hard to fake as scum because, it is likely that his scum team will have some newbies and what he said in his few paragraphs are how to see scum which I see as only being beneficial as town. 3. I am leaning town on him AT THE MOMENT because again, posts like this help to inform town not to let things like this happen. Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 17:13 Toadesstern wrote:
Oh and I forgot: Yeah we need to find someone to send d1 and that's all nice and fine but I don't think it's a good way to keep the talk all focused on only that.
Faking townreads as mafias is incredibly easy. Faking mafiareads as mafia is something that takes effort. If we're only going to talk about who we're going to send d1 we're giving mafia an incredibly easy time skating by.
I know it feels counterintuitive as clearly the shortterm "goal" is to send a good guy d1 but I think we should try and balance those issues out. After all, the goal in the longrun is to figure people out and we won't be able to do that by playing nice all day long.
They don't sound sincere.
He doesn't "think" scum would start their opening post with a scumread. I have no clue why he thinks that and could point to numerous games where this assumption is patently proven false. In fact, I would say it is the more common way for scum (or anybody) to start their games, especially if coming to the thread a bit late.
His second point is meaningless. It is speculation about what the scumteam consists of, and disregards the ability to coach in the QT.
And that's it. These are his reasons for having a townread on Toad. I am having a hard time seeing a newbie vote for Toad based on these two flimsy points.
A couple of hours later, we have:
On November 22 2012 09:22 Oatsmaster wrote:
Nice 12 new pages to read...
I think with less than 24 hours left, we should consolidate on 2-3 candidates and let them townhunt and convince us that their party is the best, while the rest of us scum hunt
##Unvote
##Vote: Syllogism
Lets consolidate! All vote for Syllo. No explanation. This from the guy who a few hours before said:
On November 22 2012 00:49 Oatsmaster wrote:
Hmm..
Currently, after reading through his filter, I have a null read on Syllo.
What did you guys see that gave you a town read on Syllo?
And just after voting for Syllo he is starting to backtrack again:
On November 22 2012 10:24 Oatsmaster wrote:
Kita stop acting like dien....
It really isnt funny..
Anyone object to vote for either Sand/Syllo and want to propose an alternative candidate?
I will take the vets metaread on Toad, which was that he was very difficult to read as either alignment.
And then we have this gem:
On November 22 2012 12:38 Oatsmaster wrote:
Diensore, I am not considering you because I dont know if you are town or scum. Simple as that.
He is perfectly willing to vote for Syllo without knowing whether he is town or scum, yet not Dieno. Completely inconsistent behaviour.
Some more fuel for the "need other people to agree with me"-train-of-thought:
On November 22 2012 18:39 Oatsmaster wrote:
Currently I am on Syllo, but I would like more people to chime in and vote for their preferred candidate as well in order to confirm my decision.
I am having a very hard time drawing a consistent line of thought in his thinking. However, it is not an erratic lack of line, like in Kush or BillMurray's plays. Oatmaster is indicating in other ways that he has a solid grasp of logic.
I don't immediately lean scum from this: it is his first game and he might just be over-enthusiastic, yet insecure about his own ability. However, I don't see how you can get a town read with this kind of play.
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EBWOP: I am having a hard time seeing a newbie TOWN vote for Toad on these two flimsy points.
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On November 22 2012 22:32 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 22:25 marvellosity wrote:On November 22 2012 22:11 goodkarma wrote:
I have already briefly discussed my reasoning for Djo. And since reassessing my reads I have seen no reason for removing him.
phagga - Again not a strong read. He fits my selection criteria of a semi-lurker who shows interest in scumhunting and has his own train of thought for how to go about selecting a candidate...
Indeed phagga does not have as much of a track record as I would consider ideal in making a read in a normal game, but for this particular setup he is not being as active as would be ideal for mafia. That was a part of my train of thought in choosing him. Presently the challenge has been differentiating town from scum and that has been harder with the "townhunting" system. This is the system I have devised to increase the chances of picking town this cycle. I am open to hearing other suggestions, but as it currently stands this would be an ideal team for my selection criteria.
So you think the benefits of you knowing (from your perspective) you are town but unable to make strong townreads outweighs the risk that another candidate is not town, but is capable of making strong townreads? From what I've seen the other candidates have not made strong townreads. Okay, now I'm going to bed...
It doesn't mean they don't have them. At the moment I have a group of about 6 players I would be considering bringing and I'm fairly confident I could bring this down to 3 quite sure town. I would be surprised if this was not the case for syllo/sand/kita.
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On November 21 2012 12:02 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:59 Acrofales wrote:On November 21 2012 11:53 kitaman27 wrote:
Something that I just thought of that we may be able to take advantage of later on are name claims. It seems unlikely that there are multiple versions of certain characters running around. For example, if we were to have a likely town character such as Lucca name claim, we could elect her as leader. This however is based on the assumption that the alignment in this game is tied to the alignment of the video game. Until this becomes clear, I wouldn't be confident in trying to abuse the setup like this. Also, we would have to worry about the mafia being given certain fake claims, but this is something that is less of a threat, considering the potential reward.
We also have the option as town to enforce an additional party member selection vote. This limits the power of a single player, but it makes it easier for the mafia to sneak in one of their own in the 3rd of 4th slot. I think I'd rather put faith in the elected leader, to avoid the manipulation, assuming myself or my candidate of choice is elected. You're really hanging this on the assumption that scum doesn't have safe claims. In general, I hate mass claims, because they break the game AND have a large chance to backfire. Who said I was suggesting a mass claim? I'm saying we could use a single name claim, only after we identify that the alignments in this game line up with the alignments in the video game. The mafia likely does have safe claims, but if we select a character at random, the odds are in our favor. The rewards certainly outweigh the risks in my opinion.
Just caught this: is there something in your role that seems to indicate that alignments are different from game alignments? I for one have no reason to suspect so.
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Goodkarma your system relies on a very questionable assumption; in every single game it is beneficial for mafia to be proactive and not lurking, yet few ever do. Overall I would characterize as your play and posts as droning and overly explanatory. Unfortunately you appear to show similar characteristics as town and mafia, so I'm not sure if that means anything.
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On November 22 2012 22:49 syllogism wrote:
Goodkarma your system relies on a very questionable assumption; in every single game it is beneficial for mafia to be proactive and not lurking, yet few ever do. Overall I would characterize as your play and posts as droning and overly explanatory. Unfortunately you appear to show similar characteristics as town and mafia, so I'm not sure if that means anything.
what do you make of Promethelax's play + votes so far?
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Kita, I don't like your "not taking with me" post at all.
On November 22 2012 11:19 kitaman27 wrote:
iamperfection: His spammy one liners annoy me. I think his post in support of syllo made it look like he decided to vote for syllo and then look for a reason to justify it, rather than the other way around.
While I agree that iamperfection is a terrible choice and probably scum, your being annoyed is not a scumtell.
marv:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:28 marvellosity wrote:On November 21 2012 21:42 kitaman27 wrote:
There are quite a few people who claim to be voting for sandroba on the basis that they claim to be able to easily differentiate his scum play from his town play. The only reason I see this as the case is that he commonly gets lazy and stops caring or posting as mafia. However, that's simply due to personal choice. How many people here other than maybe syllo are confidant they can identify a scum sandro when he remains active? Having played with him in pypi (an election game), I know he is quite capable of fooling most people when there is something he wants.
I'm quite puzzled by the fact that marv hasn't run for election. As being one of the most active players recently, I think he would be fairly confident at being able to gain support for himself. As town, I know I want to be the leader because that is the only way to directly increase our chances of success. marv however appears to want to avoid the spotlight and participate in an advising role or at least gauge the support he has. Could you explain this decision?
Work time. I'll try to start identifying some town players when I get back if I'm confident enough. I'm not interested at running for party leader atm. And it's not about gauging support, I'd probably just tell town to vote for me from the get go if I wanted it. Why don't I want it? Like syllo I've been hoping to be somewhat 'lazy'. While I will give this game my full attention like any other, partly I've come along for the ride. I don't want to dominate this game (for better or worse) like I'm capable of doing. Plus I don't feel very at home in themed setups like this. There are going to be some differences in how scum/town players act compared to normal setups, and I don't know what they are yet. There are a few players in this game who I hold in extremely high regard (I think are better than me) and in that situation I feel somewhat insecure. If those players weren't in the game I'm pretty sure I would be standing for party leader because I'd think I knew best out of everyone playing, but I don't think that in this game. I found this reply quite lackluster. You don't want to run for leader because you're insecure? Do you value helping out the town or not making yourself look bad more? You refer to players you hold in extreme regard, which clearly can only point to myself, yet you have been against my election from the start. Additionally, how does this being a themed game impact your ability to identify townies? This seems like quite a cop out.
Healthy mistrust of Marv is okay. I am starting to like how he's playing, but as you said, there are some things wrong with what he has done. I am not leaning scum. I think a scum Marv would absolutely want to run. However, 3rd party is completely possible.
risk.nuke
Besides the fact that he is probably scum, this jerk taunted me by pretending to be interested in hosting a newbie game and then proceeded to ignore my pms. What a scumbag move.
A joke, and a "he's scum", without an explanation. Mind expanding this read. I am so far not getting scumvibes on risk.
strongandbig
His opinions have been pretty vanilla thus far. I don't think his contributions have earned him a spot yet.
Cautiously null. Why single out SnB of all the players you are probably cautiously null on. This just seems weird, and weird things from someone who is otherwise making a lot of sense make me suspicious.
kushm4sta
I'm always weary of an erratic player that is behaving himself.
True, and at the time I agreed. His wacko suicide claim makes me lean town, though. Also, I am inclined to believe he is sick, which is a damned good excuse for not playing his normal post-alot self. If you notice, the few posts he made are still rather erratic, they're just not as omnipresent.
So all in all, this list is pretty damned weaksauce, which makes me wonder why it is here in the first place. At first my eye slipped over it and I thought, "hah, Kita is posting some good content", but on a doubletake it really is not good content at all.
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yes, I already pointed that out Acro. You're totes old news there.
iamp is on my likely town list, btw.
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Ugh, I should probably consolidate my thoughts and questions for Kita. He is really puzzling me. Here is the next question:
On November 22 2012 11:31 kitaman27 wrote:
Finally, the Frog role claim may be the most important event that has taken place this game. There needs to be more discussion about it. I'll post my thoughts later tonight.
These thoughts never came...
From his selected party, it seems obvious he believes the claim and believes Frog to be town (or a beneficial third party at least). He confirms this opinion (or the claim is the confirmation) with Dino's filter. This is somewhat in contrast to his earlier thoughts, where player characters were suspect until mod confirmation through flips.
Kita: I really need more info if I am to consider you seriously. I don't like Sandro because I have not yet made up my own mind and Syllo's caution is weighing heavily on my mind. I don't like Syllo, because he is too secretive. You are making a lot of sense. To decide between you three, I want all three of you to post your thoughts, answer questions and allow me to make up my mind.
@Dieno: I think you're probably town. Don't give me no bullshit about a poll. Who would you take in your party?
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Wow I just deleted the response to Acro's post.
Take 2.
@Acro
1. I was warned repeatedly AFTER I voted him. The reason why I think that a scum wouldnt open with a scumread is because town CANT actually lynch at this point of time, so why bother? It was the first scumread of the game furthermore. As a newbie I wouldnt know how Toad's meta was right? At that time, his posting seemed to be more town oriented than Sandro and Syllo so I voted him.
2. I voted for Syllo A whole 9 hours after I reasoned why I voted Toad. Also after 12 pages, which he was contributing in when I saw the thread after I woke up. Also at that point I was totally off Toad and wanted to consolidate on 2-3, not ONLY SYLLO.
3. How am I backtracking if I ask for alternative proposals for leader? IIRC, this was before kita's real post on why he should be a leader and at that point, Sandro/Syllo were the only 2 candidates.
4. Yes I am not confident in my reads of people in mafia so far so I also like to take into account what others have to say in order to make a read/vote for a party leader in this situation.
Now I am not too happy about Syllo's idea of keeping his party members to himself but I also dont like Sandro's proposed party members. I dont have a read on Goodkarma yet and kita needs to post more about his team and why he should be the leader before I move my vote off Syllo.
My Strongest town read is Syllo at the moment, with probably Dieno and Djo too
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I'm not going to read Promethelax's previous games as he apparently posts way too much, but limited to just this game I think his play is suspicious so far.
Whomever is elected i will support in their choice of team 100%, we as a town gain more (information and, I believe a better chance of mission success) by giving that power to one person.
This doesn't feel like town mindset, which is that of suspicion. It makes no sense at all to suggest that whomever is elected you will support the choice of team 100%. How do you gain more information by giving that power to one person? If that person is mafia, what information do you gain from his choices? Better chance of mission success regardless of whom is elected?
This might also be nitpicky depending on how he plays usually, but first he has this to say about Hapa
He is a great town player and a kinda crappy scum player, seems like the right guy to have along for the ride.
I just don't have that town feel from Hapa. (as Hapa knows I never have a town feel from him).
First Promethelax asserts that hapa is a great town player and crappy scum player and thus prom wanted to have him on his team. In the second quote he says that he never has a town read on Hapa. This feels like the kind of contradiction that indicates a mindset other than town. If you aren't comfortable reading Hapa, why would you want him on your team? In general I find people who immediately suggested teams based on nothing at all.
His reasoning for not wanting to vote for me or sandro are also curious as I think I saw him only explaining why he chose not to vote for sandro, but didn't provide any reason for not voting for me.
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On November 22 2012 23:07 Acrofales wrote:
Ugh, I should probably consolidate my thoughts and questions for Kita. He is really puzzling me. Here is the next question:
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Kita: I really need more info if I am to consider you seriously. You are making a lot of sense. To decide between you three, I want all three of you to post your thoughts, answer questions and allow me to make up my mind.
Which is it?
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Stop asking one liner questions marv or you'll be deemed useless/spammy/scummy. Yes I'm bitter.
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All my questions have a point, I'm always somewhat spammy, and I never get mislynched.
Why did you even say that?
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EPT
