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On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 22:56 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 22:41 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Mind you IdrA, as an average spectator and casual player I don't give a shit about sponsors as long as the game is shit and not entertaining to watch. If you think that our job as sc community is to make everything we can so that you could get sponsers and paid, I have to tell you, you're wrong, I could go as far to say that you're a selfish douche, but I'm not gonna, coz I think as a progamer you don't see anything past the wall of EG house or tournament booth. People are not satisfied here with the game, its as simple as that. What a load of crap. First, don't call someone a douche and then say you aren't. Second, maybe, just maybe SC2 is not built for casual gamers! Maybe we already have enough of these products out there. Maybe it is built for people who actually like a challenge, and wish this game would bring more challenge instead of a false sense of achievement? Gamers these days...Seriously every time I hear someone ask for another carrot on a stick to run after, an achievement, a skin, a hat, a xp bar to fill up, is this really what you want in your games, a constant padding on the back? Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right? Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is.
Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently.
You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it.
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On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 22:56 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 22:41 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:
[quote]
This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2.
The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful.
Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was.
Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Mind you IdrA, as an average spectator and casual player I don't give a shit about sponsors as long as the game is shit and not entertaining to watch. If you think that our job as sc community is to make everything we can so that you could get sponsers and paid, I have to tell you, you're wrong, I could go as far to say that you're a selfish douche, but I'm not gonna, coz I think as a progamer you don't see anything past the wall of EG house or tournament booth. People are not satisfied here with the game, its as simple as that. What a load of crap. First, don't call someone a douche and then say you aren't. Second, maybe, just maybe SC2 is not built for casual gamers! Maybe we already have enough of these products out there. Maybe it is built for people who actually like a challenge, and wish this game would bring more challenge instead of a false sense of achievement? Gamers these days...Seriously every time I hear someone ask for another carrot on a stick to run after, an achievement, a skin, a hat, a xp bar to fill up, is this really what you want in your games, a constant padding on the back? Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right? Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it.
There are two major flaws in your post:
1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time.
2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA.
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On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 22:56 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 22:41 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:
[quote]
This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2.
The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful.
Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was.
Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Mind you IdrA, as an average spectator and casual player I don't give a shit about sponsors as long as the game is shit and not entertaining to watch. If you think that our job as sc community is to make everything we can so that you could get sponsers and paid, I have to tell you, you're wrong, I could go as far to say that you're a selfish douche, but I'm not gonna, coz I think as a progamer you don't see anything past the wall of EG house or tournament booth. People are not satisfied here with the game, its as simple as that. What a load of crap. First, don't call someone a douche and then say you aren't. Second, maybe, just maybe SC2 is not built for casual gamers! Maybe we already have enough of these products out there. Maybe it is built for people who actually like a challenge, and wish this game would bring more challenge instead of a false sense of achievement? Gamers these days...Seriously every time I hear someone ask for another carrot on a stick to run after, an achievement, a skin, a hat, a xp bar to fill up, is this really what you want in your games, a constant padding on the back? Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right? Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it.
So you are still on a SC2 forum over 2 years after release, yet, you did not enjoy it, and you also did not enjoy watching it on tournaments? How long did you enjoy it exactly? Did you never enjoy it? I think that considering how popular SC2 still is after 2 years, it was and is actually a great game! Not many games can keep this much attention after two years. I understand that the game has become stale for people after 2 years, it also has for me, and I hope the expansion will refresh the experience....
I do see Blizzard changing, I see their games changing. It is changing under the pressure of the casual player and it leads to crappier games. The interface we have now was designed that way to cater casual player, just press the big buttons, nothing can distract the player because he can only handle 5 buttons at a time. Don't put chat channels up there right away, much too scary.
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On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 22:56 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 22:41 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:
[quote]
I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act.
IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up.
at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Mind you IdrA, as an average spectator and casual player I don't give a shit about sponsors as long as the game is shit and not entertaining to watch. If you think that our job as sc community is to make everything we can so that you could get sponsers and paid, I have to tell you, you're wrong, I could go as far to say that you're a selfish douche, but I'm not gonna, coz I think as a progamer you don't see anything past the wall of EG house or tournament booth. People are not satisfied here with the game, its as simple as that. What a load of crap. First, don't call someone a douche and then say you aren't. Second, maybe, just maybe SC2 is not built for casual gamers! Maybe we already have enough of these products out there. Maybe it is built for people who actually like a challenge, and wish this game would bring more challenge instead of a false sense of achievement? Gamers these days...Seriously every time I hear someone ask for another carrot on a stick to run after, an achievement, a skin, a hat, a xp bar to fill up, is this really what you want in your games, a constant padding on the back? Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right? Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA.
I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong.
This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above.
And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today.
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There are two major flaws in your post:
1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time.
2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA.
I don't think this is true at all. The design decisions and mechanics involved in the game has been in direct response to the BW pro players discussing what's good about the game. In fact, most of the changes in the game since it was released was in direct response to pro players and shows like ITG and SotG. Most of the "money" that Blizzard is dumping into the game is for things directly related to pro players (cash pools, tourney invites, map changes, etc).
The reason interface changes and other things are not implemented in patches is because no one discusses them at all. They bitch and whine about them, but never put forward opinions. Any attempt to do so causes a huge uproar. Destiny's stance is actually the most well thought out articulated discussion on the state of the game, and that's actually a bad thing since it's done pretty horribly (more like rant than a discussion).
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On October 27 2012 00:21 murkk wrote:Show nested quote +There are two major flaws in your post:
1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time.
2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I don't think this is true at all. The design decisions and mechanics involved in the game has been in direct response to the BW pro players discussing what's good about the game. In fact, most of the changes in the game since it was released was in direct response to pro players and shows like ITG and SotG. Most of the "money" that Blizzard is dumping into the game is for things directly related to pro players (cash pools, tourney invites, map changes, etc). The reason interface changes and other things are not implemented in patches is because no one discusses them at all. They bitch and whine about them, but never put forward opinions. Any attempt to do so causes a huge uproar. Destiny's stance is actually the most well thought out articulated discussion on the state of the game, and that's actually a bad thing since it's done pretty horribly (more like rant than a discussion).
We've had very constructive threads about improving Battlenet and things such as the FRB movement that went largely untouched by Blizzard even when they were posted (and even reposted 5 more times) on their own battlenet forums. Did you miss this? Seems rather naive to think that all we do is whine, and that nobody here has ever made a good thread on these issues.
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We've had very constructive threads about improving Battlenet and things such as the FRB movement that went largely untouched by Blizzard even when they were posted (and even reposted 5 more times) on their own battlenet forums. Did you miss this? Seems rather naive to think that all we do is whine, and that nobody here has ever made a good thread on these issues.
Battle.net changes and ladder changes are a cop out as it doesn't effect gameplay at all. There is also unlimited improvement that can be done in these areas, as no matter how good or bad it is you can add a feature to battle.net and do better. What I'm talking about also goes back well into the design of the game before it was released, and the feedback they get from the community in general.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On October 27 2012 00:10 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 22:56 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 22:41 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:
[quote]
if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
Mind you IdrA, as an average spectator and casual player I don't give a shit about sponsors as long as the game is shit and not entertaining to watch. If you think that our job as sc community is to make everything we can so that you could get sponsers and paid, I have to tell you, you're wrong, I could go as far to say that you're a selfish douche, but I'm not gonna, coz I think as a progamer you don't see anything past the wall of EG house or tournament booth. People are not satisfied here with the game, its as simple as that. What a load of crap. First, don't call someone a douche and then say you aren't. Second, maybe, just maybe SC2 is not built for casual gamers! Maybe we already have enough of these products out there. Maybe it is built for people who actually like a challenge, and wish this game would bring more challenge instead of a false sense of achievement? Gamers these days...Seriously every time I hear someone ask for another carrot on a stick to run after, an achievement, a skin, a hat, a xp bar to fill up, is this really what you want in your games, a constant padding on the back? Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right? Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong. This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above. And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today.
sigh
I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win"
Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.-
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I wish someone would make a short 30 second video of that clip of geoff's impression rant of destiny, then the people posting on twitter, then the blizzard reps acting all earnest, then the fans posting saying 'we did it, we saved it', so we can cut-paste it into all these mindless whine threads about how sc2 is dying.
Most people get that it isn't but I believe a large percentage of the people that don't get it will be swayed by this impression.
oh, and
EDIT:
People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.-
hahahahahahaha. Like a herd of retarded cattle sometimes.
fuck, we need something shiny to distract people. Someone find a girl to steal someones headphones or trick someone with vague promises of benefits to take her to MLG.
ah well, 6 months from now we'll look back and reference this period of time and laugh.
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On October 27 2012 01:02 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 00:10 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 22:56 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 22:41 bokeevboke wrote:
[quote]
Mind you IdrA, as an average spectator and casual player I don't give a shit about sponsors as long as the game is shit and not entertaining to watch. If you think that our job as sc community is to make everything we can so that you could get sponsers and paid, I have to tell you, you're wrong, I could go as far to say that you're a selfish douche, but I'm not gonna, coz I think as a progamer you don't see anything past the wall of EG house or tournament booth. People are not satisfied here with the game, its as simple as that.
What a load of crap. First, don't call someone a douche and then say you aren't. Second, maybe, just maybe SC2 is not built for casual gamers! Maybe we already have enough of these products out there. Maybe it is built for people who actually like a challenge, and wish this game would bring more challenge instead of a false sense of achievement? Gamers these days...Seriously every time I hear someone ask for another carrot on a stick to run after, an achievement, a skin, a hat, a xp bar to fill up, is this really what you want in your games, a constant padding on the back? Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right? Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong. This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above. And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today. sigh I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win" Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.-
That is why I never discuss my pay with anyone except my girlfriend. Or harass anyone, except the raccons who try to get into my trash cans.
The worst part about all of this is that Blizzard is being far more open with their development of the game. We can a number of posts a week from DB in the B.net HotS forums addressing peoples issues and discussion internal tests they are doing. He even address the modified movement test, saying their internal testing found it to change almost nothing. They released the HotS beta in an almost alpha state, allowing for more live feedback on the features and units. They are working with pros on the beta forums, or at least the ones that are putting in the time to provide good imput.
DB said it best with this post in a response to someone who want to pick any color they want when they play a ladder game:
"We have a million things that the community is asking for and many of them are very good ideas and fixes to our current Battle.Net interface. To take time to work on this seems like a mistake.
Educate me. How will this make StarCraft 2 a substantially better experience? Couldn't you go play custom games if you are dying to be green Zerg? "
People are asking for everything and the sun, but there are only so many hours in the day.
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On October 27 2012 01:02 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 00:10 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 22:56 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 22:41 bokeevboke wrote:
[quote]
Mind you IdrA, as an average spectator and casual player I don't give a shit about sponsors as long as the game is shit and not entertaining to watch. If you think that our job as sc community is to make everything we can so that you could get sponsers and paid, I have to tell you, you're wrong, I could go as far to say that you're a selfish douche, but I'm not gonna, coz I think as a progamer you don't see anything past the wall of EG house or tournament booth. People are not satisfied here with the game, its as simple as that.
What a load of crap. First, don't call someone a douche and then say you aren't. Second, maybe, just maybe SC2 is not built for casual gamers! Maybe we already have enough of these products out there. Maybe it is built for people who actually like a challenge, and wish this game would bring more challenge instead of a false sense of achievement? Gamers these days...Seriously every time I hear someone ask for another carrot on a stick to run after, an achievement, a skin, a hat, a xp bar to fill up, is this really what you want in your games, a constant padding on the back? Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right? Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong. This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above. And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today. sigh I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win" Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.-
You seem to contradict yourself, you say you always used to complain to blizzard, but then you say community shouldn't do it now. It perplexes me, coz HoTS is coming up, its the most approriate time to make Blizzard listen and do somehing, they want their product to sell afterall.
You said that you're getting a raise, which frankly I don't care about, but what I care about is you trying to make an illusion that everything is ok when its not. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid, retiring or changing their game. And check viewer count of streams on rightside bar.
I never said game is dead, its just Destiny exaggerating, community is complaining about game being stale and boring.
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Finally watched the latest episode, I fucking love DJwheat and his pajama pants. That was fantastic :D
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On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 22:56 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 22:41 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:
[quote]
This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2.
The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful.
Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was.
Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Mind you IdrA, as an average spectator and casual player I don't give a shit about sponsors as long as the game is shit and not entertaining to watch. If you think that our job as sc community is to make everything we can so that you could get sponsers and paid, I have to tell you, you're wrong, I could go as far to say that you're a selfish douche, but I'm not gonna, coz I think as a progamer you don't see anything past the wall of EG house or tournament booth. People are not satisfied here with the game, its as simple as that. What a load of crap. First, don't call someone a douche and then say you aren't. Second, maybe, just maybe SC2 is not built for casual gamers! Maybe we already have enough of these products out there. Maybe it is built for people who actually like a challenge, and wish this game would bring more challenge instead of a false sense of achievement? Gamers these days...Seriously every time I hear someone ask for another carrot on a stick to run after, an achievement, a skin, a hat, a xp bar to fill up, is this really what you want in your games, a constant padding on the back? Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right? Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it.
In this community they do. They absolutely do.
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On October 27 2012 01:35 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 22:56 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 22:41 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:
[quote]
I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act.
IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up.
at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Mind you IdrA, as an average spectator and casual player I don't give a shit about sponsors as long as the game is shit and not entertaining to watch. If you think that our job as sc community is to make everything we can so that you could get sponsers and paid, I have to tell you, you're wrong, I could go as far to say that you're a selfish douche, but I'm not gonna, coz I think as a progamer you don't see anything past the wall of EG house or tournament booth. People are not satisfied here with the game, its as simple as that. What a load of crap. First, don't call someone a douche and then say you aren't. Second, maybe, just maybe SC2 is not built for casual gamers! Maybe we already have enough of these products out there. Maybe it is built for people who actually like a challenge, and wish this game would bring more challenge instead of a false sense of achievement? Gamers these days...Seriously every time I hear someone ask for another carrot on a stick to run after, an achievement, a skin, a hat, a xp bar to fill up, is this really what you want in your games, a constant padding on the back? Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right? Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. In this community they do. They absolutely do.
then what are you doing here?
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On October 27 2012 01:26 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 01:02 iNcontroL wrote:On October 27 2012 00:10 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 22:56 Domus wrote:
[quote]
What a load of crap. First, don't call someone a douche and then say you aren't. Second, maybe, just maybe SC2 is not built for casual gamers! Maybe we already have enough of these products out there. Maybe it is built for people who actually like a challenge, and wish this game would bring more challenge instead of a false sense of achievement?
Gamers these days...Seriously every time I hear someone ask for another carrot on a stick to run after, an achievement, a skin, a hat, a xp bar to fill up, is this really what you want in your games, a constant padding on the back? Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right? Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong. This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above. And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today. sigh I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win" Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.- You seem to contradict yourself, you say you always used to complain to blizzard, but then you say community shouldn't do it now. It perplexes me, coz HoTS is coming up, its the most approriate time to make Blizzard listen and do somehing, they want their product to sell afterall. You said that you're getting a raise, which frankly I don't care about, but what I care about is you trying to make an illusion that everything is ok when its not. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid, retiring or changing their game. And check viewer count of streams on rightside bar. I never said game is dead, its just Destiny exaggerating, community is complaining about game being stale and boring.
The problem is people see complaining and harassing as the same thing. The guys on ITG were saying that harassing Blizzard through twitter, forums and other routes is not productive. Complaining to them or providing feed back though standard channels is more productive, but people who do it should not expect an instant or any response. Harassing them through twitter will likely only lead to somone in their marketing department asking they are interacting with a community that only says bad things about their upcomming game. That is not an internal discussion we want happening at Blizzard, since they make way more money off of the people who buy the game only for the single player. Even if SC2 was on the decline, the whole community screaming about it does not help anything and would only stifle efforts to change things.
The rest of the stuff you are talking about are all things that have been building for a while. Slayers imploding was a long time comming. Other players signed up with shady teams and stream counts are lower because to much Starcraft 2. Also, most events have been using the same map pool for nearly 6 months, which is making the game a bit stale.
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People are asking for everything and the sun, but there are only so many hours in the day.
Captain obvious here:
If they had take care before the #savehosts rant, they would have more hours.
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On October 27 2012 01:02 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 00:10 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 22:56 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 22:41 bokeevboke wrote:
[quote]
Mind you IdrA, as an average spectator and casual player I don't give a shit about sponsors as long as the game is shit and not entertaining to watch. If you think that our job as sc community is to make everything we can so that you could get sponsers and paid, I have to tell you, you're wrong, I could go as far to say that you're a selfish douche, but I'm not gonna, coz I think as a progamer you don't see anything past the wall of EG house or tournament booth. People are not satisfied here with the game, its as simple as that.
What a load of crap. First, don't call someone a douche and then say you aren't. Second, maybe, just maybe SC2 is not built for casual gamers! Maybe we already have enough of these products out there. Maybe it is built for people who actually like a challenge, and wish this game would bring more challenge instead of a false sense of achievement? Gamers these days...Seriously every time I hear someone ask for another carrot on a stick to run after, an achievement, a skin, a hat, a xp bar to fill up, is this really what you want in your games, a constant padding on the back? Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right? Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong. This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above. And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today. sigh I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win" Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.-
Can you honestly answer these two very important questions: What, as a community figure, can you do to promote the game to people outside our community? Do you have any suggestions as to what we, the casual player base, can do to promote the scene outside our community?
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Just came here to say Incontrol, Idra and DJWheat acted like total assholes.
Destiny came to make some valid points and you treated him like shit. Im sorry but this is pretty stupid
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On October 27 2012 01:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 01:26 bokeevboke wrote:On October 27 2012 01:02 iNcontroL wrote:On October 27 2012 00:10 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:
[quote]
Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right?
Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong. This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above. And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today. sigh I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win" Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.- You seem to contradict yourself, you say you always used to complain to blizzard, but then you say community shouldn't do it now. It perplexes me, coz HoTS is coming up, its the most approriate time to make Blizzard listen and do somehing, they want their product to sell afterall. You said that you're getting a raise, which frankly I don't care about, but what I care about is you trying to make an illusion that everything is ok when its not. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid, retiring or changing their game. And check viewer count of streams on rightside bar. I never said game is dead, its just Destiny exaggerating, community is complaining about game being stale and boring. The problem is people see complaining and harassing as the same thing. The guys on ITG were saying that harassing Blizzard through twitter, forums and other routes is not productive. Complaining to them or providing feed back though standard channels is more productive, but people who do it should not expect an instant or any response. Harassing them through twitter will likely only lead to somone in their marketing department asking they are interacting with a community that only says bad things about their upcomming game. That is not an internal discussion we want happening at Blizzard, since they make way more money off of the people who buy the game only for the single player. Even if SC2 was on the decline, the whole community screaming about it does not help anything and would only stifle efforts to change things. The rest of the stuff you are talking about are all things that have been building for a while. Slayers imploding was a long time comming. Other players signed up with shady teams and stream counts are lower because to much Starcraft 2. Also, most events have been using the same map pool for nearly 6 months, which is making the game a bit stale.
I get it.
Instead of saying "SC2 is so boring, I don't play it anymore, Blizzard pls make it fun or I won't buy HOTS" people should say something along "ZvP seems to evolved into a single strategy of Broodlord/infestors vs Mothership, we need to diversify it a bit".
I agree with it.
But here are couple of things to note:
When you want some company who are selling a product to improve their product, its not enough if couple of people complain about it and make some well constructed suggestions. Why would a company change anything due to couple of peoples opinion.
Therefore a huge chunk customers need to raise up and show that they are dissatisfied with the product.
Now, when a big crowd acts, some of them come up with good suggestions and some of them just rant about their dissatisfaction, others just make "+1" posts just to let the company know they're in that crowd. Which is kinda becomes harassing, but still some people bring up good suggestions. Which is why I'm saying cluttering twitter, TL and battle.net with dissatisfaction post is only way Blizzard will listen to us. You think people weren't complaining past 2 years? They did, but Blizzard did little to nothing. But now they have a good reason to actually do something. They gotta sell as many HOts copies as they can.
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On October 27 2012 01:49 xuanzue wrote:Show nested quote +People are asking for everything and the sun, but there are only so many hours in the day. Captain obvious here: If they had take care before the #savehosts rant, they would have more hours.
No one is saying that is not true, but unless you invent a time machine, it is a pointless to harp on the issue. Blizzard had other games they were making and did not use their staff to add features to WoL. Now those games are out and they are focusing on HotS back end on battle net. You can either complain it should have been done earlier or put forth some constructive feed back when the new patch comes.
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EPT
