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On October 13 2012 06:02 StatikKhaos wrote:
lol roaches are already awful,
they're good because they're so cheap,
but they're also super expensive in terms of supply.
200/200 roach is really really weak, its just super cheap
im assuming this was a reply to me, i think your missing the point you could have 200/200 supply of any unit on the ground, but over making units because you know you have to make it through force fields its really boring
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Doing these changes would first of make fourgate and all other rushes for protoss imba, prior to stim gateway units are already pretty good versus terran. Making collosion radius on marines would make the marine split micro alot less neccesary against units like banelings. It would pretty much require that warpgate was removed because warp ins of 10+ gateways units lategame would become VERY effective. I don't see how this would make protoss more fun, i think ffs are pretty fun and microing collosi/hts is pretty much the only micro P has late game so just a-moving with gateway units would become the norm which is even worse than it is now.
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On October 13 2012 06:24 Tedde93 wrote:
Doing these changes would first of make fourgate and all other rushes for protoss imba, prior to stim gateway units are already pretty good versus terran. Making collosion radius on marines would make the marine split micro alot less neccesary against units like banelings. It would pretty much require that warpgate was removed because warp ins of 10+ gateways units lategame would become VERY effective. I don't see how this would make protoss more fun, i think ffs are pretty fun and microing collosi/hts is pretty much the only micro P has late game so just a-moving with gateway units would become the norm which is even worse than it is now.
Hence why multiple people in the thread suggested moving warpgate up in tech three or changing/removing it. Do you even lift?
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few things for OP:
1. i did a test in which 20 marines + 2 medivacs fully upgraded with no micro against a 9 zealots + 1 immortal = protoss won with the immortal surviving.
2. zealots harrasment for terran players is strong when terran army trying to attack protoss side. and dont forget on mid - late game you can warp 10 + zealots on enemy base in 5 seconds to start attacking on multiple places.
3. 10 roaches vs 10 protoss both units fully upgraded = protoss win with 6 protoss survive (and this is even with no use of forcefield to split enemy to 1/2 or 1/3 each time)
protoss is the last race who needs buff in my opinion (well not last, zerg is last :p), what it DOES need is a viable way to play late game PvZ which is currecly is a joke and favour zerg in every match.
same thing goes to TvZ late game, zerg are way too powerfull on late game because of the unbeatable combo corruptor + broodlords + infestor, and vs terran if this does not work they simply switch to ultras who win them the game (terran cant reproduce on late game even with amazing infestracture enough units to stop 200 / 200 zerg ground army with ultras.
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United Kingdom20263 Posts
We’ve been getting a lot of feedback from lower-level Protoss players saying that gateway units are weak because Warp Gates are too good, Force Fields are too difficult to use, etc
I find it insulting that dayvie/rock seem to think these complaints are coming from lower level players
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Very well said kcdc, I hope someone at Blizzard takes a long look at this. It's not a shockingly new or innovative idea but I haven't seen it put better yet!
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Man do I wish Blizzard would read stuff like this. I have pretty much quit SC2 because toss are in such a pathetic state.
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Well there's a tiny sliver of hope...
from the "Thoughts on Balance Update #6" Thread
Blizzard, please listen to the long, thoughtful posts on the issues with Protoss. There's 2-3 of them now, both here and at TL. You're missing the point with your buffs/nerfs and core unit design needs to be addressed (possibly even core race design). It's beta now so you have the opportunity to do that.
We have said on repeated occasions that we will be addressing Swarm units before we look to address WoL units. Please keep that in mind.
We are paying attention, even if it doesn't seem that way to you.
Although I think it's the wrong way to do it since they don't need rebalancing but redesign...
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kcdc : To be fair, the problems you illustrate are just the way battles work in SC2. Put 20 marines in a fight against 15, they won't be 5 against 0 in the end, but rather 12 or 13 against 0. The side that wins a battle very often wins it overwhelmingly.
As for your tests, well :
1) Marines are supposed to be the counter to zealots, with their pure single target DPS. So it's logical they would win. But they're the weakest against AOE. The more maraudeurs you mix in, the closer the battle will be, but when you add in storm or colossi it won't be as impactful. I'm sure you know that anyway.
2) As somebody said before, zergs are supposed to be kings in open space, and the protoss army is supposed to be strong together. Their units aren't great to mass, but they complement each other really well. I do agree with the dichotomy of the sentry success though. One hole and it's game over, perfect FFs and zergs don't kill a single unit.
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Really awesome article! This adresses exactly what is going wrong with the current meta game (map design included). Thanks for putting this together and hopefully this will be seen by someone at Blizzard!
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On October 12 2012 07:14 FeeLdAfuRy wrote:
This is such a great post and I agree with everything you said.
The only thing that I would add is that buffing Protoss tier 1 would also require Warp Gate to be made a higher level tech (possibly tier 3) so as to limit 4/6gate type strategies from becoming unbeatably strong.
Yeah I agree with this notion. Protoss needs more variety at tier 1, and warp gate should be a decision with pros/cons, not a given. I like the tension with Terran as to whether you mule, supply or scan. Granted the ratio will nearly always favor mules except for the late game with scans, there is tension there and that tension embodies the RTS component of the game.
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I think increasing collision radius on a lot of the units would a be a great. I dont enjoy the deathball style collisions that you often see, were the entire 200 supply army is clumped up in a 2 inch box. I love the idea of buffing and nerfing tier one units esp with the goal of seeing more tier 1/2 engagements. The one thing that i absolutely hate about WoL is that you have two players build up an army for 20 minutes and then the game is over in one big fight. If blizzard reworked tier ones units we can see more small skirmishes across the map and less deathball collisions.
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On October 13 2012 05:24 tsuxiit wrote:
Blizzard's afraid of making any changes like this. I'd love to see warp gates redesigned/destroyed, but it simply won't happen because Blizzard sees themselves as already being too invested in it.
This. I don't even bother thinking/theorizing about sweeping changes. They won't be implemented. I guess this is the reason why no one aside from avilo is posting in the pro beta feedback forum. HotS will be based off of his feedback. glhf.
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I for one would vastly prefer a version of SC2 designed by avilo over what we have seen by Browder and company. The game needs bigger changes than silly stuff like making the Sentry not require research to use hallucinate.
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On October 13 2012 11:43 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 05:24 tsuxiit wrote:
Blizzard's afraid of making any changes like this. I'd love to see warp gates redesigned/destroyed, but it simply won't happen because Blizzard sees themselves as already being too invested in it. This. I don't even bother thinking/theorizing about sweeping changes. They won't be implemented. I guess this is the reason why no one aside from avilo is posting in the pro beta feedback forum. HotS will be based off of his feedback. glhf.
Don't worry, they'll only lose 1% of their revenue when all the hardcore fans of the game get fed up with their inability to acknowledge more deep-seeded problems with the game.
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On October 13 2012 11:53 ledarsi wrote:
I for one would vastly prefer a version of SC2 designed by avilo over what we have seen by Browder and company. The game needs bigger changes than silly stuff like making the Sentry not require research to use hallucinate.
Thought they already tried that (and went back on it) in the first beta? Made certain timing attacks really strong when you could conjure 6 faked immortals/colossi at the 7 minute mark.
Also spore crawler without evo? I'm not really up to date on what's being discussed in the scene, but where are they getting all of this from?
Oracle increase entomb duration from 50 to 60? It's not like you'll ever see an entomb last a full 50 seconds in a pro game anyway. Pointless.
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On October 13 2012 06:35 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote + We’ve been getting a lot of feedback from lower-level Protoss players saying that gateway units are weak because Warp Gates are too good, Force Fields are too difficult to use, etc I find it insulting that dayvie/rock seem to think these complaints are coming from lower level players
Well I find it insulting that you low level players don't realize you're low level.
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On October 13 2012 13:02 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 11:53 ledarsi wrote:
I for one would vastly prefer a version of SC2 designed by avilo over what we have seen by Browder and company. The game needs bigger changes than silly stuff like making the Sentry not require research to use hallucinate. Thought they already tried that (and went back on it) in the first beta? Made certain timing attacks really strong when you could conjure 6 faked immortals/colossi at the 7 minute mark. Also spore crawler without evo? I'm not really up to date on what's being discussed in the scene, but where are they getting all of this from? Oracle increase entomb duration from 50 to 60? It's not like you'll ever see an entomb last a full 50 seconds in a pro game anyway. Pointless.
I don't know how free Hallucination will play out but I think it's an idea worth trying out.
The spore crawler thing is a bit odd but I understand their reasoning, they wanted that to make fending off Widow Mine a bit easier and contrary to what some say, removing the Evo condition doesn't make much real difference for fighting Dts or Banshees...at least not at any league at diamond and above. Lets take DTs for example, if Zerg is totally not expecting it he will get fucked up badly no matter what even if he doesn't need an evo, well great now you can just snipe his Spores all day long as he tries to build them, big deal, same thing with Banshees. Using Spores vs DT or Banshee is only truly effective if you actually have them up BEFORE the cloaked units reach your base. And aside from that, cloaked units are often waaaaaay more effective in the lategame than the earlygame, just used to harass multiple bases and whatnot, the evo chamber change is nearly irrelevant.
Oracle is still a retarded unit with retarded spells blizzard sucks.
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On October 13 2012 06:20 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 06:02 StatikKhaos wrote:
lol roaches are already awful,
they're good because they're so cheap,
but they're also super expensive in terms of supply.
200/200 roach is really really weak, its just super cheap Can we trade stalkers for roaches then?
I would gladly play zerg with blink stalkers instead of roaches.
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On October 13 2012 14:05 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 06:20 kcdc wrote:On October 13 2012 06:02 StatikKhaos wrote:
lol roaches are already awful,
they're good because they're so cheap,
but they're also super expensive in terms of supply.
200/200 roach is really really weak, its just super cheap Can we trade stalkers for roaches then? I would gladly play zerg with blink stalkers instead of roaches.
Man, if I had blinking hydras I'd never build another roach
+ Show Spoiler +cuz id still make nothing but infestors LOLOLOLOL
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EPT
