EPTWhy Protoss Is Frustrating to Play Or Play Against - Page 7
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
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Tao367
United Kingdom324 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
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sAfuRos
United States743 Posts
Before we even talk about Protoss gateway units, i'd worry about the atrocious unit design that blizzard implements into HotS. Like jesus fuck, who the fuck is making these decisions, free hallu for sentries lmfao | ||
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JyB
France466 Posts
But why not even mention once the warpgate mechanic ? It's partially because of it that Protoss T1 units are weaker. Buffing T1 units and still keeping warpgate looks ridiculously op. Don't you think ? | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
-the zerg has a much better concave than the protoss -there are stalkers and immortals dancing in the back that cannot reach the zerg's roaches. that right there would be evidence for a BAD ENGAGEMENT, but not DIFFERENCE IN COST EFFICIENCY. gateway units are plenty strong enough in the hands of someone that knows how to use them, but i think if the right changes were made to the sentry and their T3 (specifically the colossus), i'd be willing to hear them out. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
I don't think early game is what you toss players should be focusing on. You want to improve the quality - the fun factor - of the entire game and realistically it still all boils down to the deathball. And in reality, all blizzard needs to do is to remove the colossus from the deathball to create more positional play and minimize centralized DPS. To illustrate, ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4rQJj.jpg) The protoss deathball. A moving entity of pure DPS. Having colossus stacked on top the army creates what is essentially a moving, AoE turret. The protoss deathball is the bane of the entire game and needs to be solved. What happens when you remove the colossus from the deathball? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fWxBM.jpg) You create a situation where colossus do not act like a "turret". You still maintain the zealot-archon-immortal-stalker "stack" but the colossus need to be repositioned to attack. This is has a multitude of implications which the following image will illustrate. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yenH9.jpg) What you see in the above is the spreading of DPS. Here's what's happening. 1) Colossus not stacking leads to reduced DPS on a certain area of the attacking army. 2) The protoss army will begin to spread out laterally to match the lateral spread of the attacking army. So now the attacking army is not concentrating DPS on one central area. 3) You now have these sub engagements in a lateral direction versus one specific ball-on-ball engagement. Think like how roach vs roach spreads out. 4) ... and for the toss, this fucker: ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/8/8b/Infestor.png/200px-Infestor.png) can no longer fungal your entire deathball because your army is widely spread out! great! | ||
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Proko
United States1022 Posts
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PcH
United States83 Posts
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Freefall22
New Zealand15 Posts
This is actually a great idea, make having warpgate a upgrade that you don't just get but actually can plan builds around getting. I've been considering race swtiching from protoss, not because of ballance, but because of the play style... it's just not fun. | ||
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purakushi
United States3303 Posts
 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955 (OP's information is out of date though, but you get the idea) | ||
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tsuxiit
1305 Posts
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Zanzabarr
Canada217 Posts
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On October 13 2012 05:22 purakushi wrote: Just play Starbow on the Arcade. Come to chat channel starbow for games. Much better game. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955 (OP's information is out of date though, but you get the idea) i just tried this game for the first time. I really recommend everyone to try it. It's actually extremely fun haha | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On October 13 2012 04:49 BluemoonSC wrote: the screen cap you posted of immortal stalker vs the roaches really put me off right off the bat to the point where i didnt even read your article. -the zerg has a much better concave than the protoss -there are stalkers and immortals dancing in the back that cannot reach the zerg's roaches. that right there would be evidence for a BAD ENGAGEMENT, but not DIFFERENCE IN COST EFFICIENCY. gateway units are plenty strong enough in the hands of someone that knows how to use them, but i think if the right changes were made to the sentry and their T3 (specifically the colossus), i'd be willing to hear them out. You didn't miss much. It went on to state reliance on FF in all MU, moved onto some assertions about "weak" gateway units, observed Protoss dependence on tech in the mid to late game, then onto maps and map pools before finally ending with some entirely unoriginal design suggestions. A shambles of an OP. | ||
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Werk
United States294 Posts
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On October 13 2012 04:37 sAfuRos wrote: I think everyone needs to just face the fact that the Blizzard design team is just incompetent. It is quite obvious that Blizzard has taken a money-first policy to their company in the last few years, and SC2, no longer generating much money, is no priority. Their balance team has always been shitty; only David Kim even plays the fucking game. DBrowder just sits there and pretends to care. The community has consistently proposed better unit designs or at least raised very legitimate concerns, and every time without fail, Blizzard as ignored them Before we even talk about Protoss gateway units, i'd worry about the atrocious unit design that blizzard implements into HotS. Like jesus fuck, who the fuck is making these decisions, free hallu for sentries lmfao Yeah Blizz has been lacking lately, you can tell by the lower quality of the content being released after Burning Crusade expac in wow. | ||
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StatikKhaos
United States214 Posts
they're good because they're so cheap, but they're also super expensive in terms of supply. 200/200 roach is really really weak, its just super cheap | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On October 13 2012 06:02 StatikKhaos wrote: lol roaches are already awful, they're good because they're so cheap, but they're also super expensive in terms of supply. 200/200 roach is really really weak, its just super cheap Can we trade stalkers for roaches then? | ||
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Nocci
Germany108 Posts
Currently Balance is good, but the design is bad. Is it really? Well look at this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374930 Only 150ish people participated in the poll before the thread was closed, but I think the trend is clear. I didn't know TL didn't approve of simple surveys like this, maybe someone can come up with an addition to the thread so there would be some disussion instead of just people listing for what they voted and maybe it could be reopened. I'd love to have a 2k people sample of which 80% state PvZ is utter bullshit, regardless of what race they play. Then present it to DB only to hear "but but I like it, there is no spoo.. eh problem." With balance and design going hand in hand, of course balance will be overthrown when trying to fix underlying design issues. Most people bringing up things like "nah you can't change FFs/can't buff Warpgate units/nerf AoE" are not seeing the giant circlejerk they're caught in because they're looking mostly at balance. To break out of this vicious circle you need to start at one point and then introduce more design/balance changes subsequently. It's pretty much impossible to gauge the consequences of a fundamental change like FF nerf. Yes it's a fuckton of work, but in the long run it will only benefit the longevity of the game. Maybe this shouldn't be mentioned to their higher-ups, because with extended longevity of one product it's more difficult to sell the successor... I tried for a step one suggestion here (long ass read): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=373390 I'd love to theorycraft and come up with more different approaches if it weren't so damn disheartening, reading the same horseshit from DB and DK over and over again. Denying that there's a problem in P design is either a lie or proof of stupidity, at this point idk which I'd prefer... | ||
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