|
On August 15 2012 20:40 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 20:19 DarthPunk wrote:On August 15 2012 19:58 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 19:32 DarthPunk wrote:On August 15 2012 19:19 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 18:45 DarthPunk wrote:On August 15 2012 18:32 Shady Sands wrote:
I see basically two lines of accusation here.
1) I'm asking a ton of questions and making it look like I'm contributing without actually contributing anything.
2) My two cases on Thrawn and Solar are weak.
In response to 1): First, since it's only 12 hours into D1, there's not much material to work off of. That's why most of the posts have consisted of throwing around questions rather than 400 word case posts. Second, evoking responses, at this stage of the game, is critical. Without a solid base of accusations and counter-accusations in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. Evoking responses is important, but so is providing analysis and content which you have barely done. Without a solid base of analysis and content (especially that which is not a near fraudulent interpretation of something near meaningless) in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. There is not much material to work off yet you have encouraged everyone to bandwagon on the back of your interpretation of one post and solars subsequent reactions. (which are far more suspicious than any case on him you have provided.) On August 15 2012 18:32 Shady Sands wrote:
In response to 2): I'm not certain how you can say your own case on me is any stronger than the cases I've put out on Thrawn and Solar. You seem to imply that since I called out Thrawn for being WIFOM/fluffy, and according to you, I've made more "fluff" posts than he has, then I'm more suspicious. But the case on Thrawn didn't rest on being WIFOM, it rested on the fact that Thrawn led off with an extremely long and odd rant on the SK; the case on Solar likewise didn't rest on that sort of accusation either--rather, it rested on the fact that he was actively being hostile to the town rather than defending himself AND his first post on what the scum was thinking was extremely suspicious. So my case on you is equally as weak as your cases? Yet you are presenting mine as invalid and yours as valid. The crucial difference between us is I have actually posted substantial cases based on the analysis of large amounts of posts in your filter and have followed the case up with additional content. You twisted near meaningless posts made at the very beginning of day one and have made a huge leap of assumption to even provide anything at all. And have followed that up with nothing further aside from fluff. My case is not nearly as weak as yours. The cases you made based on those posts were a gigantic stretch at best. Tunnelling these people without providing additional insight or content is harmful to town. The bigger issue, Darth, is why you are holding me responsible for a lack of analysis and content so far when I've been trying the hardest to get people to commit to reads on people and post more cases. Also, how is this post below: On August 15 2012 12:01 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 11:43 thrawn2112 wrote:
Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar? It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case.
Still waiting for several people to post up... I'm gonna take a break for an hour or so and I will join back in once more people have posted. Basically I read this: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. And it didn't make sense to me. Why would Solar make this post if he's town? It's not pro-town to post on which style a scum might or might be playing. Then I read his post in context of the first post that stutters made, and it seemed like Solar is trying to soft accuse stutters--because stutters post was short, and didn't hold any information that disagrees with the general direction (as telling people to read a guide is about as plain as someone can get.) The second possibility here, aside from soft-accusing stutters, is that Solar is trying to look participatory. He states this himself, later. Why would a townie try to look participatory from his first post onwards? No one has accused Solar of anything yet, so why the desire to look like he's contributing (as opposed to actually saying something of substance instead of guessing at what the scum must be feeling?) Both these possibilities lead to a scum Solarsail. ## FoS Solarsail A lack of content and analysis? I note that you didn't include it in your long train of quotes on me, perhaps because it doesn't fit the picture you're trying to paint. So I ask you: How is the above case a bad case? How does it not provide content or analysis? If you can't find answers to those questions, then I'd respectfully ask you to start applying your own strict standards to YourHarry, who, by your logic, should be a far bigger scum than I am. I have mentioned that case several times. It is largely based on wild and convoluted assumptions in order to lead to anything meaningful. I have said previously you are either more guilty of the things you are accusing him of or are making assumptions based on a largely innocuous post. The not all, but the Overwhelming Majority of your posts are fluff. and the Analysis you do present is bad or a stretch. Which begs the question. Why would you be making such absurd stretches in your 'analysis' unless you are serving an agenda? I will look at Your Harry also. I have only been back for a short while and need to reread the thread. However I find it unusual that you are now, after suspicion has been cast upon you, casting aside your earlier cases without a clear or satisfying reason and trying to shift attention onto Your Harry. Again, you're saying my analysis is bad or a stretch without stating why they're bad. What's wrong with the case I've posted above? What are the holes? Until you can answer those questions, your case on me doesn't help the town. Furthermore, I am not casting aside those cases without a clear or satisfying reason. You're framing me for things I haven't done, which is anti-town. I explicitly stated that I'm moving to YH because I find his behavior even scummier than Thrawn's or Solar's. Furthermore, I stated why I think pushing on Thrawn or Solar when they're not in the thread and can't respond won't generate the sort of discussion that ends up helping the town. I am not framing you for things you haven't done. Why such a melodramatic Defense? You case was bad, because it was based on an assumption and the convoluted scum motivation you presented alongside that assumption. It was a stretch because the assumption you made was a stretch. Your cases bring very little to the table, and unlike XXII you are not confirmed town and cannot get away with such questionable arguments. You explicitly stated you were dropping the cases on them for now. Why not just move on without saying anything? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With that being said. I strongly encourage everyone to read Your Harry's Filter It is so ridiculous that I feel bad I didn't jump on it sooner. @YOUR HARRY acting like you have some sort of outside information to make a PANTS ON HEAD series of posts is very suspicious and unless you have a rock solid excuse for what your filter currently consists of I have a very large; FoS## Your HarryOn August 15 2012 13:20 YourHarry wrote:
Shady. I guess there is a small chance that I could be wrong. But if I am right, it is not a good idea to reveal this information. Let's move on for now. It is 100% a good idea to reveal this information right now. You're saying I was abandoning the cases for no reason, when I clearly stated I was temporarily dropping them to look at someone who I thought was scummier. There's a key difference between those actions and I think we need to be on the same page as to what they are. As for my cases on Solar and Thrawn, what assumptions were they based on that you found faulty? You still haven't responded to the specifics in my case at all. I'm not giving you a hard time here because I think you're scum--on the contrary, it's because you're a pretty logical player that I feel I need to convince you.
Glad to see we agree on YH.
OK some specifics.
The assumption on the solar case was that his post was in some way 'soft accusing' someone on the basis of this post.
On August 15 2012 09:32 Solarsail wrote:
Reading the many guides linked on the library which are incredbly helpful, the most important thing I saw is that the town needs to stay active and stay on point. If we are to lynch anyone it has to be because of real information and evidence, and that has to be readily available from the thread. If we're trying to learn we need a long record to practise analysing.
Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out.
The scum motive you put behind this is a huge stretch and as the basis of your case against him it is a very weak case.
The second assumption is that this post was somehow scum trying to seem as if they were participating etc. and making it out to be any more than it is (beginning of the game Policy/Small talk) is a huge stretch and makes the case weak.
That being said, If your harry doesn't have an extremely enlightening answer to his mysterious hints etc. I have a hard time finding anyone else more suspicious than him.
@Your Harry Please explain the hints to outside information that you posted. If you do have a town reason for this it is better for you to claim etc. than for us to mislynch you.
|
I am off to bed now. Night!
|
EBWOP
On August 15 2012 18:17 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 16:56 Ochrow wrote:
I feel like the general consensus is that shady was reading too much into Solar's first post, as to any motives behind that I can't yet speak. And along the same lines everyone seems to feel that Solar is now playing a pro-town style be this scummy or not I feel it is something we need to watch for as even if he isn't scum I think it will sidetrack a lot of discussions and hinder the scumhunting in general. How can you say that everyone seems to feel that Solar is now playing a pro-town style? Who has said this?
I meant to type not instead of now. If you read the rest of the post I think you'll see that I was saying that he was NOT playing pro-town but I was unsure as to whether or not it was definitively scummy.
|
LOL. For real? Solarsail and GK accusing me recently makes me think I am wrong about my read. So, I will explain...
I thought GK and Solarsail were mason buddies. The reason for my thinking this is:
GK's post struck me as strange because it made it sound like he knew Solar's alignment. He even starts the post with a "Sigh..." as if the town has been going in the wrong direction. My first suspicion was that they are scums together, but I don't think scums support each other this obviously and directly. GK using such wordings would strongly incriminate him if Solar ever flips scum. Thus, I thought this possibility is not likely.
My second reaction was that they may have a history together. I thought Solar reacted similar way in previous games in which GK was in, which ended in some sort of fail. I checked GK's game filter and he had no history of Solar. And Solar admittedly played only one game prior to this in a different forum.
Thus assuming they are mason buddies, I re-read Solar's posts. It made sense that he made confident, dauntless posts calling people out as if he knew someone could vouch for his being town. It even made sense that as mason, he may posit how it could have been scary to draw scum, something of the opposite.
On August 15 2012 09:32 Solarsail wrote:
Reading the many guides linked on the library which are incredbly helpful, the most important thing I saw is that the town needs to stay active and stay on point. If we are to lynch anyone it has to be because of real information and evidence, and that has to be readily available from the thread. If we're trying to learn we need a long record to practise analysing.
Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out.
Also, I began to be more confident about this read after GK stopped responding to my explanation on why I thought Solar was town:
On August 15 2012 12:55 YourHarry wrote:
GK, your post regarding Solar was the reason why I found him town. Is that enough explanation for you?
I thought GK understood what I was implying here. And since he stopped questioning me, I thought my read that they are masons together was correct. I guess I was wrong. 
|
YH that is a much better post. You had a theory, evidence and explanations. It actually makes a lot of sense.
Shady, I do not have the link because the game was played in 2008 and the site's forum has since been wiped and reset. I'm glad you gave some straight answers to my points, I just have one more thing: why are you no longer suspicious of me?
Ochrow do you have anything to comment upon YH or Shady or something new in the thread? Instead of posting about the general consensus.
|
Shady, regarding your accusation of me, the only thing that makes me scummy is this:
On August 15 2012 18:49 Shady Sands wrote:
Mkfuba posted something that was perfectly townish which YH tried to twist into scummy play.
Again, I was indeed guilty of this. But this was a result of my strong suspicion that Solar was town. I did realize I was taking things out of context when Mkfuba pointed this out.
You accuse me of posting one liners. I often post one liners and not much information is available in the beginning of the day, so few sentences would suffice in explaining reads. One liners can have content.
And agreeing with you so readily is not a scummy behavior. Me if anything as scum may even be reluctant to agree with people readily, unless they have a strong case, in fear that people may point things out.
@Goodkarma. You did not find Solar scummy based on previous cases at all? What makes you so confident about town going in the wrong direction in accusing Solar. It is almost as if you know his alignment?
|
|
|
Shady, it's like halfway into d1 and you already have a 3-page filter. It seems almost as if you are trying TOO hard to make your cases. I appreciate that you are trying to lead town discussion, but that doesn't necessarily make you town.
As for my filter, I played in XXII and XXIII before the reset. I feel like asking people to post their filters is unnecessary. While it MAY be more convenient for us to have them in this thread, it is definitely extra clutter and we could always just open another tab and find it really quickly. Half the people in this game don't even have a meta to begin with, so to me it just seems like another really empty way to look super pro-town.
YourHarry, I don't know what to think about you. You always post like you have dain bramage, so the only "meta" I can pick up from you is that you're playing in this game. That being said, your "mason theory" is understandable, and i'm willing to give you a pass for sounding kind of scummy, provided you don't pull anything like that again. I've done the same thing as a townie (sort of) and gotten lynched for it, which makes me cautiously see you in a green light for the moment. Sometimes people get so caught up in scum hunting they can't see the possibility of a townie getting in over his head, and such one track mindedness is what causes mislynches to happen.
Solar also has a town vibe atm, mostly because his play so reminds me of my own in XXII
|
So I've just quickly read through what I missed while asleep. I have a few appointments to get to, so this will be my only post until later this evening.
My read on Shady right now is slight townie. He was the driving force behind most of the first day so far, and has been sticking his neck out the entire time. I get null reads from the cases he presented, because though I disagree with the evidence for them, they promoted discussion when there was very little to discuss. He gets a townie point because of this discussion promotion and activity.
I waited to post my reads on YourHarry because I wanted to avoid an OMGUS reaction, but most of my feelings on him had been posted by GK. I really wanted to see his reasoning for dropping the votes on Solar. Since he's posted that now, I'm a strange point in my read on him. In response to his vague comments I started to believe that he had just read his role PM (since he delayed reading them in both D1s of XXIII) and realized that Solar was his Mason partner. That seems like a legitimate reason to hint at it without outright saying it, though it will make everyone suspicious of him. What I find most suspicious is YH's willingness to believe in a Solar/GK mason team with so little evidence of it. The post he quoted from GK "defending" Solar was a mirror of my views on Solar - that he's playing in a way that will distract us from true scumhunting for the rest of D1. I don't think GK's phrasing implied greater knowledge than he should have had as a vanilla townie, as I came to the same conclusion. As a result, I see YH's strong townie read on Solar as YH behaving as if he has more information than he should. Since he isn't mason, that only leaves scum.
FoS YourHarry
Solar's posts have me leaning towards a townie read for him. Pointing out how thrawn's defense of him may be considered scummy seems like a very town thing to do. He's not taking someone's defense of him as evidence of townie-ness, but being suspicious of his motives. I'm not sure I agree with his method of building discussion (in reference to his earliest, trolly play), since his first few posts could cast him in a suspicious light for the rest of the game. But if it was his plan to do so to build discussion in the first place, then he knew the risks and took them for the team.
|
Posting from work.
Mkfuba: First, there is a difference in cautiously wondering if Solar is a newbie townie, which is what you did, and knowing that Solar is a suspiciously playing town. This is what GK wrote:
Sigh... I really hope this entire day doesn't revolve around you because you got off to a bad start.
You guys propose the same thing in that Solar is not a good lynch. But the underlying basis for GK's proposal is based on what he somehow knows as a certainty. There is a subtle but important difference here. And this is why I think GK is scum, now that I realize that they are not mason brothers.
Second, I do think the evidence was quiet sufficient. I am actually surprised that no one saw the same thing I did. In addition to GK's cooperative acceptance of Solar as just an over-agreessive townie , Solar's bold posting style fit almost perfectly once I started believing that he was a mason. Finally when GK no longer questioned me, I became more confident of my read.
Also, what information do scums have that townies don't have that would allow scums to speculate better on mason alignments? There is one thing: since scums know everyone who is not scums, they may have easier time identifying the mason claims. But from my perspective, as long as I deemed the possibility of GK/Solar being scums together to be unlikely, my ability to speculate on mason alignment is as good as scums'. You may feel like I am playing with more information because I was quick to believe GK/Solar mason, but logically information available to scums does not allow them to better read masons as long as townies can also establish that GK/Solar are not scums together. I explained my reason for thinking that GK/Solar are not scums together, though I am having second thoughts about this. Thus, my identifying GK/Solar mason combination, even if it was based on less than convincing evidence does not lend much support to me being scum.
|
After reading all of your replies, I've reached a few major conclusions.
First off, I have to say that Shady Sands seems scummy to me. My main arguments are:
1) The way he tries to appear a pro-town cop + Incoherence
+ Show Spoiler + a) In his first post, he already starts declaring everyone to post their filters from previous game. He, later, pressures people to put it up, multiple times, as if he is already assuming authority. This gets reiterated in later posts, where he urges people to do something that is clearly helpful for analyzing the town. This also implies that he is willing to read these threads and carefully pin out what everyone's meta is. I'm sure you all can agree on this. Why would he insist on something that he is not willing to use? So after this post, I painted in my mind the image of someone who would be very precise with his research. However, he incoherently fails to address some points and forgets some minor details in his writings. He fails to address my first and third posts entirely, which established some small (and I will concess, not too significant) discrepancies in his policy. He forgets to mention his attempt on JHyut in: I explicitly stated that I'm moving to YH because I find his behavior even scummier
than Thrawn's or Solar's When, a couple of posts above, he had just made a direct anti-town accusation over him. This may seem small, but it seems odd to me that someone who gives out the appearance of a pro-active researching townie would miss out on this and send a huge amount of one-liners, point fingers and make accusations against 5 different people and not committing to them, constantly letting go and bringing up new cases. To me, he is simply trying to stir discussion in a very mafia-like way.b) His tone of authority. He immediately urges people to post, with less than two hours after the beginning of D1, reminding people to post their introductions. I don't think that is necessary, and is an empty statement which reeks of anxiety. He attempts to tunnel Solar Sail hard, then YH: Great job keeping up the pressure on Solarsail.
(...) This is what I want everyone to focus on. Why would Solarsail do this?
(...)Current town focus is on YH. He also further channels a sense of security with: Once the whole town has gotten a chance to talk and we have a full day's worth of posts to go off of, then I think we can say for sure who is scum and who isn't. Which is clearly not true, in this game we can never say for sure.
2) His impulse to quickly start being aggressive, and the insistence of this being due to "trying to start some discussion"
+ Show Spoiler +a) He immediately kicks it off with attacking Solar Sail, with lacking arguments already mentioned by DarthPunk. He dismisses it later as "trying to start some conversation". He also restates this argument numerous times, alongside with his "pro-town approach": + Show Spoiler +(...)If you look near the end of the XXII game, you'll see me doing now what I was doing then--prodding people with questions and keeping the town's posting rhythm extremely high. First, since it's only 12 hours into D1, there's not much material to work off of. That's why most of the posts have consisted of throwing around questions rather than 400 word case posts. Second, evoking responses, at this stage of the game, is critical. Without a solid base of accusations and counter-accusations in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. (...)I stated why I think pushing on Thrawn or Solar when they're not in the thread and
can't respond won't generate the sort of discussion that ends up
helping the town. (...)But I do want those sorts of filters conveniently laid out, since that does help town. (...)I'm doing this because town benefits when players formally commit to reads and are as explicit as possible. Also, in a few pages, he has already made cases against five different people. This seems too forced,
These two points, in addition to DarthPunk's discussion with him, have led me to raise some eyebrows regarding Shady Sands' attitude in this game. He just seems to be trying too hard to look townie, which was one of the first things I caught on, in my third post.
My suspicions on Shady Sands is fairly high, and will warrant a FOS should he keep up this boisterous behavior. HOWEVER, he is by far the one who has the most content, and thus the easiest one to find suspicious behavior and inconsistencies. I will not be so quick to judge him as there are many people who are simply not posting, and being very lurky. This is horrible for the town and, in my view, is much more troublesome than my suspicion of Shady Sands.
Nevertheless, my biggest scum reading right now is YourHarry. His over-confidence in making bad one-liner posts and his nonsensical argument-lacking statements is truly mafia-like.
The only argument he bothers to explain regarding GK's statement on Solar Sail is mediocre at best, since three people were on top of Solar Sail and attacking his emotional and damaging play for most of an entire page, and it is fairly agreeable that this was starting to become non-productive.
I also don't like this meta YH's employing. He starts off by acting irreverent and confident, and only when he realizes people are starting to suspect him and attack him is when he starts bothering to add plausible arguments and defenses. He might just not be taking this game seriously, but I certainly sniff scum.
##FOS YourHarry
|
Z-Boson,
Just because I didn't write in paragraphs or in formal style, does not mean I am not taking this game seriously. I am taking forced breaks at work to make these posts. In the beginning I wrote one liners because that's exactly what I needed to convey what I wanted to say. Now, I am writing in paragraphs because that's what it takes me to explain my suspicious actions regarding sudden switch of stance on Solar. And also, if you had thought that Solar/GK were masons, would you have acted in a different way than I did? If so, what would you have done?
Also, let's suppose I am scum. Do you think Solar is likely to be my scum partner?
@GK you still have not answered my question. What did you think about Shady's case on Solar? Did it occur to you that Solar could have been scum?
|
My two cents on Shady:
My initial inclination when I see somebody being as aggressive as he is, this coming only from live games not forum, is that they are scum. However, every single time that I have been in this sort of situation and gotten a scum vibe from somebody being overly aggressive I have been wrong. So for me that history has me thinking that that Shady is town, just an incredibly aggressive one. However at the same time I think that he may be a bit overly aggressive and reading too much into people's posts, as he has made two rather strong accusations against Solar and JHyut that I feel are more or less unfounded.
On Solar:
As I originally said I felt that his play was not at all pro-town but, assuming he is telling the truth about the acting and that he didn't just pull it out of his ass, he has really turned around and is very much giving off a townie feel.
On YH:
So far I haven't really been able to get much of a read on him. While he was posting one-liners at the beginning, as he said he was actually able to get his point across in them, granted that his point wasn't always a great one to get across (ie Oh I have a secret read but I'm not sharing it). But since his explanation, which to me seems to be entirely understandable, he too is giving off a town feel.
As for any reads I have, in most of the games I've played there has been at least one scum that was just purely a lurker, and as such I get a bit of a scum feeling from Archrun. He has only three posts all only a few sentences, long enough to not be pointed out as one-liners but only just. I guess I also get suspicious of any first post that just focuses on O hai thar I'm a townie yay killing scum. While I know everybody is trying to prove themselves as town I just get bad feelings when the substance of somebody's post is:
On August 15 2012 10:10 Archrun wrote:
As a Townee, I promote any policy that helps us catch scum, but we must back accusation up with evidence(which this policy should provided) and reason.
On top of that in his three posts he doesn't get into what he thinks about who might be scum but is just theorizing or throwing out a soft defense. I may be totally off on here but until he posts a bit more or contributes something of substance I am going to throw out ##FoS Archrun
As per Solar's question I hope this helps, and if there was any curiosity about the reasoning behind my general consensus post, it seemed like a lot of people were in more or less violent agreement over the Solar issue so I wanted to throw out my understanding of events in the hope that it might lead to shorter and/or fewer posts beating that dead horse.
|
Policy?
A few people started talking about policy at the beginning and we never actually came to an agreement on that because of solar's trolling. Can we say whether or not we are going to FOS lurkers? Of course this doesnt not mean an automatic lynching, but it will help to keep everyone posting so that we can all get better reads. My vote is that yes, this policy should be put in effect, even though we have almost wasted the opportunity to do so.
Concerning the YH topic:
3 possibilities immediately come to mind:
One, that YH is being honest about him thinking that solar and gk are masons. That will explain basically all of his scummy sounding posting earlier in the game. Two, that he and solar are masons. This would explain his strong conviction that solar is town, and could also explain why he posted like he had information to hide. Three, YH and solar, or maybe just YH is scum. This would also account for the cryptic way he was posting. The only part that I'm having trouble with, is that 4 minutes after voting for me for being suspicious of shady, he unvoted me and changed his vote to solar. 21 minutes later is when according to him, he came up with his 'solar as mason' theory and unvoted again. So if YH is scum and solar is scum, why would YH ever vote for solar in the first place? It could be a sneaky manipulation but i doubt that is the case. This makes me believe that no, YH and solar cannot BOTH be scum. YH's quick changing of votes is what I'm currently looking at to see if I can make any reads as far as YH is concerned.
At this point I think YH's alliance hinges on whether or not you believe his story about suspecting solar and gk of being masons. At one point in the game I was willing to indulge the thought that YH and solar were masons based off a weak read I was making, (the extra information YH was hinting at) so it is easy for me to believe that YH did the same. YH, for now I believe your story and do not think either you or solar are scum.
Solarsail
Just to confirm what I'm thinking, do we all trust solarsail's account of his first few posts, that he was trolling to get responses? I'm assuming we all do? Myself, I believe him. I don't think a player who posts like he initially posted would be able to post how he is posting now unless they were trolling. Initially he was the most scummy player, but at that point in the game less than half the players had even posted. As time went on I began to think that no he's not scum, but he's a town player who just doesn't understand what the tone of this game is supposed to be. Honestly solar you were posting like you had just come in from a sc2 tournament thread, it was very hard to know what to make of that. IMO you actually caused more harm than if you would have allowed the discussion to remain on policy talk. The first few pages of posting were very chaotic and full of people making baseless accusations set by the tone of how you chose to play the game. Yes, I do think that myself and maybe some other people are able to make reads off the situation you created, but I think that those reads could have come regardless of your trolling.
mkfuba07, after reading my post do you agree with my claim that YH is town? If not, why not?
|
Solarsail's most recent postings definitely are a change of stance from his "troll" behavior he exhibited earlier and deserves a little time to comment on. I am very glad to see Solarsail renounce his trolling ways. Personally, I don't feel it was a very strong way to start the game. There will be suspicion cast on him the rest of the game for this day one play. However, I agree with his point that scum would have little motivation to go away from "trolling." His early gameplay was pretty disruptive, to the point of derailing all conversation onto him. Had he continued with "trolling," there's no doubt in my mind that he could have been that guy town would be 100% unsure of the rest of the game with no hope of a better read.
Going away from this "troll" playstyle gives us more insight into Solarsail's motivation behind his posts, which is not a good idea from a scum perspective. As scum, he could have hidden behind his troll behavior until getting lynched. If he did a good job of it, he would be so disruptive there would be no meaningful conversation about other scum reads. Further, when the time came to lynch him there would be such consensus that no meaningful leads would come from his lynching.
As I've just mentioned, there is a legitimate scum reason for his early postings. But as I've already discussed, I feel his aggressive early stance was most likely town-motivated. This is because in a newbie game, I would not expect such a scum play, but rather for scum to play more "safely."
Further, the scum playstyle I've described would be a bit high risk, high reward. The longer a "troll scum" could stay alive, the more derailed the town would be and the better off the scum team would be. However, drawing attention to one's self like Solarsail did so early in the game would definitely put scum in a situation where they might have to bus Solarsail day one, and I can't think of many situations where a voluntary day one scum bus is ever really a good idea. Therefore, even though I could see a "troll scum" motivation, Solarsail's early play felt too aggressive even for that.
TL;DR:
Solarsail, like anyone else here, could be scum, but my impression of his early play was that he was more likely an aggressive townie. I feel there is more of a plausible town motivation than a scum motivation for him to now change his playstyle to be more constructive.
|
On August 16 2012 05:27 Ochrow wrote:My two cents on Shady: My initial inclination when I see somebody being as aggressive as he is, this coming only from live games not forum, is that they are scum. However, every single time that I have been in this sort of situation and gotten a scum vibe from somebody being overly aggressive I have been wrong. So for me that history has me thinking that that Shady is town, just an incredibly aggressive one. However at the same time I think that he may be a bit overly aggressive and reading too much into people's posts, as he has made two rather strong accusations against Solar and JHyut that I feel are more or less unfounded. On Solar: As I originally said I felt that his play was not at all pro-town but, assuming he is telling the truth about the acting and that he didn't just pull it out of his ass, he has really turned around and is very much giving off a townie feel. On YH: So far I haven't really been able to get much of a read on him. While he was posting one-liners at the beginning, as he said he was actually able to get his point across in them, granted that his point wasn't always a great one to get across (ie Oh I have a secret read but I'm not sharing it). But since his explanation, which to me seems to be entirely understandable, he too is giving off a town feel. As for any reads I have, in most of the games I've played there has been at least one scum that was just purely a lurker, and as such I get a bit of a scum feeling from Archrun. He has only three posts all only a few sentences, long enough to not be pointed out as one-liners but only just. I guess I also get suspicious of any first post that just focuses on O hai thar I'm a townie yay killing scum. While I know everybody is trying to prove themselves as town I just get bad feelings when the substance of somebody's post is: Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:10 Archrun wrote:
As a Townee, I promote any policy that helps us catch scum, but we must back accusation up with evidence(which this policy should provided) and reason. On top of that in his three posts he doesn't get into what he thinks about who might be scum but is just theorizing or throwing out a soft defense. I may be totally off on here but until he posts a bit more or contributes something of substance I am going to throw out ##FoS ArchrunAs per Solar's question I hope this helps, and if there was any curiosity about the reasoning behind my general consensus post, it seemed like a lot of people were in more or less violent agreement over the Solar issue so I wanted to throw out my understanding of events in the hope that it might lead to shorter and/or fewer posts beating that dead horse.
FOS Archrun
Archrun, you have made 3 posts so far and none of them have had anything directly to do with scumhunting.
Can you tell us what you think about shady's claims concerning solar, myself, and newharry?
|
@ Ochrow
+ Show Spoiler +So far I haven't really been able to get much of a read on him. While he was posting one-liners at the beginning, as he said he was actually able to get his point across in them, granted that his point wasn't always a great one to get across (ie Oh I have a secret read but I'm not sharing it). But since his explanation, which to me seems to be entirely understandable, he too is giving off a town feel.
Why would you not share a read you have? And if you aren't willing to share it, why would you even mention that you have a reading you won't share?
What could you gain by saying you have a reading that you won't share?
I can only speculate that someone else knows what you are referring to, because to me, this make no sense. At all.
Please, explain yourself.
|
Z-Boson, are you thinking that Ochrow has a read on NH that he isn't explaining?
On August 16 2012 05:27 Ochrow wrote:
On YH:
So far I haven't really been able to get much of a read on him. While he was posting one-liners at the beginning, as he said he was actually able to get his point across in them, granted that his point wasn't always a great one to get across (ie Oh I have a secret read but I'm not sharing it). But since his explanation, which to me seems to be entirely understandable, he too is giving off a town feel.
What I got from that quote is that ochrow thinks NH could be town. The opening statement of that quote you referenced was "So far I haven't really been able to get much of a read on him" followed by "he too is giving off a town feel." I don't understand if you are saying Ochrow has a town or scum read on NH.
|
NH? You mean YourHarry, YH, right?
Im referring to the bolded part, where he says (Oh I have a secret read but I'm not sharing it).
He also makes it a point to mention this earlier on, which seemed to go unnoticed:
(...) I feel like the general consensus is that shady was reading too much into Solar's
first post, as to any motives behind that I can't yet speak. And along the same
lines everyone seems to feel that Solar is now playing a pro-town style be this
scummy or not I feel it is something we need to watch for as even if he isn't scum I
think it will sidetrack a lot of discussions and hinder the scumhunting in general.
On one instance he mentions this when he is talking about YourHarry, and on the other, when he's talking about SolarSail.
I took a wild guess in my last post, because I cannot fathom any reasonable explanation of why one would mention "I have a little secret but I'm not telling!" in a mafia game, and not once, but twice. Unless someone can think of a reasonable explanation, I'm calling him out to explain this.
|
Yes, NH = YH, my bad.
So to clarify since you didnt actually answer the question, were you saying that ochrow had a town or a scum read on yourharry?
The "as to any motives behind that I can't yet speak" quote is a little ambiguous but I understood it as ochrow being suspicious of shady for shady focusing on solar's first post, but having nothing else to go on he was just leaving it at that, suspicion. What you have accused him of implying is a stretch. I have gone through ochrow's filter and can't a case of him keeping secrets about his read on solar. Could you find/quote/explain that one too?
I do not think your case against Ochrow is very convincing and I believe that you are reading too much into his posts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
