Newbie Mini Mafia XXIV - Page 11

On August 15 2012 10:15 Shady Sands wrote:


Stutters. Stutters said something perfectly townish which you tried to soft twist into scummy play.



Then you say:



You're basically accusing stutters without accusing him directly. Why?

On August 15 2012 10:16 Shady Sands wrote:


It isn't normal, but it should speed up our scumhunting tremendously.

On August 15 2012 10:27 Shady Sands wrote:


Also, could you please link your play from the other game from the other forum? So we can see your meta?

On August 15 2012 10:34 Shady Sands wrote:


LOL why are you voting me?

On August 15 2012 10:16 Shady Sands wrote:


It isn't normal, but it should speed up our scumhunting tremendously.

On August 15 2012 10:40 Shady Sands wrote:
FYI

These are the players that haven't posted yet:

Darth
GK
Golbat
Jhuyt
Z-BosoN
Ochrow
YourHarry

As a reminder, please link your filters and roles from prior games. Thank you.

On August 15 2012 10:43 Shady Sands wrote:


How is quoting you not helping anyone? Why should I post about someone else? And how does your vote get me to stop quoting you?

On August 15 2012 11:34 Shady Sands wrote:


GK, could you put up filters from XXIII and XXII?

On August 15 2012 11:53 Shady Sands wrote:
Heading out for the night.

Great job keeping up the pressure on Solarsail.

+ Show Spoiler [Thrawn] +

In addition to questioning why Solarsail is devoting his first post to appearing as town, we should also be asking why he made this comment:



Right after Stutters made the short comment about Hapa's XXIII postscript to open the game.

+ Show Spoiler [mkfuba] +

Great job keeping the discussion on track. Other than Solarsail, any other reads at the moment?

@ Solarsail

Note that when I began the entire train of questions at Solarsail, I was never directly accusing him of being scum:



He immediately responded with hostility:



This is what I want everyone to focus on. Why would Solarsail do this?

On August 15 2012 12:07 Shady Sands wrote:


I agree here. Thrawn's first post on the SK was extremely WIFOM:

+ Show Spoiler [Thrawn on SK] +

Why is Thrawn so concerned with getting town's attention on thinking about a SK, when SK is actually a bigger threat to scum than it is to town?

His response to my question was yet more WIFOM:

+ Show Spoiler +

Note the following sentence:



Then he says he won't post about it until it becomes obvious there is an SK. Basically Thrawn is fluffing up his posts here with a mostly useless discussion. I'd like to see Thrawn commit to a case. Until then,

## FoS Thrawn2112

On August 15 2012 17:39 DarthPunk wrote:
Hey guys I have been in the Hospital all day. I kept up with the thread somewhat from my phone.

Shady Sands
The case that shady posted was incredibly weak. The first 'read' shady got certainly wasn't there. Even when shady clarified his reasoning it was a huge stretch. The whole 'soft accusing thing was nonsense and seems to be fabricated by shady out of thin air in order to pursue an agenda (this may be mis-lynching a townie or stimulating discussion) however something felt off about the whole thing, and was certainly not the same way shady was playing in XXII.


I took a look through Shady's filter, the vast majority of posts contain one liner questions which add nothing to any cases.
After this incredibly weak initial 'case'



He does none of the 'scum hunting' that he has been speaking at length about nor adds to his case with anything but OMGUS until others board the bandwagon. In fact almost his entire filter is Fluff.























All these posts from his filter. No scum hunting which he has SAYS is the most important thing to do. Simply policy talk, OMGUS and one weak case. then after others have actually contributed to the thread:




Shady agrees with everyone who is inclined to jump on his bandwagon and congratulates them on keeping up the pressure on solar. He adds very little if anything to his already weak case yet tries to maintain momentum on this obvious bandwagon. The conclusion of his 'case' is not even a statement. It is simply a question of his motive. Something which requires little commitment and which you may easily back away from following a mislynch. What concerns me Is that he openly states that he would like everyone to focus on this. Focusing everyones attention on the mislynch of a bad townie is the perfect situation for scum.

then we have this.



Another weak case which follows the pattern established with his initial case on Solarsail. He takes a VERY EARLY post by thrawn and twists it into something that is at best a stretch. He accuses Thrawn of 'fluffing up his posts with mostly useless discussion' which shady himself is guilty of. And posts meaningless questions on why you would ask about a SK and presents them as some form of case.

This is not the Shady Sands I saw in XXII, Something feels off. and thus, a FoS is declared.

FoS## Shady Sands

On August 15 2012 16:03 Stutters695 wrote:
Good work guys. I go to play league for a couple hours and come back to this.

Regarding Solarsail:
I didn't see that post as a soft accusation of me. My reasoning for thinking this is that it was the second post of the game. Likewise to a few other people, the thought hadn't occurred to me until Shady brought it up. From a scum perspective he has absolutely nothing to gain by accusing me of being scum that early. Taking this as anything more than a null read currently is a mistake IMO.

What's more telling currently is his responses to what should have been a joke of pressure that early in Day 1. His sarcastic arguing and OMGUS vote leave me a lot more suspicious.

@Solarsail You need to stop trolling and try and get some info or you're just asking to be lynched, regardless of wether or not you're town.

@Shady Sands In your first post you say that of policy that we should "stop OGMUS wars" (emphasis mine, kept the whole quote for context). Yet other than pre-game banter your only posts until halfway through the 2nd page of your filter are all about confrontations to Solarsail/defending your accusation of a very, very weak case.




So far you've accused Solarsail for soft-accusing me and focused on administrative stuff (getting filters, posting who hasn't posted yet) for a combined 14 posts. I understand that you're trying to get conversation started which is great, but I noticed you missed or ignored Z-BosoN's post directed towards you about Meta-Analysis. He's asked this twice and you've ignored him both times.







My question to you is:
Why do you feel that getting filters is so necssary?

The best way to catch scum is still to hunt in tthe thread with meta-analysis only serving as the final nail in the coffin. The repeated posts on this makes me feel like there is the possibility that you're using this to be active without really hunting (1 weak accusation and 1 glaringly obvious accusation so far). Your overall level of activity makes me believe this isn't the case but I want to hear your explination.

On August 15 2012 15:18 Golbat wrote:
Hey guys! This is my second game (Not counting XXIII where I /obs'd after the reset). Hopefully I play better than I did in my last game t.t

So far, I think that the scummiest person i've seen is thrawn. He's not really said much of substance, which is of course understandable being so early in the game, but his fixation on making sure people know there could be an SK in the game is a little bit strange. The other person I find a little bit unnerving is Shady Sands. I feel like after the fiasco that was day 1 of XXII, Shady might have learned that new players who make emotionally-charged defenses of themselves and generally overreact to being targeted by someone is a trait of someone who is town. Perhaps Shady preparing a wagon that is simple to wash your hands of after the flip ("Well he WAS acting pretty scummy")

On August 15 2012 16:56 Ochrow wrote:
I feel like the general consensus is that shady was reading too much into Solar's first post, as to any motives behind that I can't yet speak. And along the same lines everyone seems to feel that Solar is now playing a pro-town style be this scummy or not I feel it is something we need to watch for as even if he isn't scum I think it will sidetrack a lot of discussions and hinder the scumhunting in general.

On August 15 2012 17:59 Shady Sands wrote:


Given that XXII was my very first game of Mafia ever, it should be expected that my posting style has grown up between now and then. If you look near the end of the XXII game, you'll see me doing now what I was doing then--prodding people with questions and keeping the town's posting rhythm extremely high.

That being said, I'm curious to know what you think about the Thrawn and Solar cases. You say they're weak. Why?

On August 15 2012 18:17 DarthPunk wrote:


Your posting was substantially better in XXII but perhaps that was because you were masoned and then confirmed town/heavily coached by BH.
Asking questions which is 90% of the content that you have provide thus far, does not constitute making cases or scum hunting. all it does is maybe evoke a response from others without actually making a case or forming an opinion yourself. A very safe playstyle. and right now after I have cast suspicion on your 'case making' rather than strengthen the cases you have made you ask me to comment. Trying to look like contributing without contributing. Asking others to comment rather than commenting.
The cases are weak because the cases do not exist. They were a stretch and the reasoning behind their scumminess was extremely convoluted and nonsensical. The posts you based your cases on were in my opinion obviously null tells, and then descended into WIFOM and OMGUS without adding anything further.
All further points, fluff posts, appearing to contribute whilst not contributing, you yourself are far more guilty of then they.
It is entirely possible they are scum. However the weak cases you have submitted and the accompanying fluff make you far more suspicious to me at this point.

On August 15 2012 18:17 Shady Sands wrote:


How can you say that everyone seems to feel that Solar is now playing a pro-town style? Who has said this?

On August 15 2012 09:42 Shady Sands wrote:
+ Show Spoiler [Thoughts on XXIII] +

Howdy town. Let's kick some scum ass. A few policy notes:

• Lynch all lurkers. That's how town caught scum in XXIII. But don't overly rely on this, scum can fake D1 activity pretty well.
  
• Observe, observe, and observe. If someone acts strangely, lynch them. This includes checking everyone's metas from previous games.
  • All players here--please list all the games you have played previously, as well as which roles you played, along with filters for your posts. Here are my links:
    My XXIII Filter, where I was scum
    My XXII Filter, where I was Mason with Keirathi
  
  
• If someone isn't forthcoming with information ("I have a read but I'm not going to share it because of blah") lynch them.
  
• If someone isn't actively pushing new cases with their posts, press them on it.
  
• Stop OMGUS wars. They're not productive. If two people are OMGUSing each other, tell them to stop, don't just sit there and let them keep yelling at each other. The only ones who win off mass OMGUSing are scum.
  

That's all for now, good luck everyone.

On August 15 2012 18:32 Shady Sands wrote:

I see basically two lines of accusation here.

1) I'm asking a ton of questions and making it look like I'm contributing without actually contributing anything.

2) My two cases on Thrawn and Solar are weak.

In response to 1): First, since it's only 12 hours into D1, there's not much material to work off of. That's why most of the posts have consisted of throwing around questions rather than 400 word case posts. Second, evoking responses, at this stage of the game, is critical. Without a solid base of accusations and counter-accusations in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day.

On August 15 2012 18:32 Shady Sands wrote:
In response to 2): I'm not certain how you can say your own case on me is any stronger than the cases I've put out on Thrawn and Solar. You seem to imply that since I called out Thrawn for being WIFOM/fluffy, and according to you, I've made more "fluff" posts than he has, then I'm more suspicious. But the case on Thrawn didn't rest on being WIFOM, it rested on the fact that Thrawn led off with an extremely long and odd rant on the SK; the case on Solar likewise didn't rest on that sort of accusation either--rather, it rested on the fact that he was actively being hostile to the town rather than defending himself AND his first post on what the scum was thinking was extremely suspicious.

On August 15 2012 13:28 YourHarry wrote:
Actually I find mkfuba suspicious. Although I think Solar did act somewhat scummy (and I voted him at one point), I think Solar is town. There were four people who thought Solar was scum: Shady, YourHarry, thrawn, and mkfuba. After three people expressed suspicion on Solar, Mkfuba opportunistically but non-committingly fuels Solar bandwagon:

On August 15 2012 11:59 YourHarry wrote:
@Z-boson, posting filters is pretty easy. Why not.

@Shady Sands. You are accusing Solarsail of being hostile? You think scums are more likely to respond with hostility?

Thrawn on the other hand is busy posting fluffs and WIFOM statement like "It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case."

##Vote Thrawn

On August 15 2012 12:03 YourHarry wrote:
OK.

##Unvote
##Vote Solarsail

"Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out."

On August 15 2012 12:06 YourHarry wrote:
I think solarsail is scared ...

On August 15 2012 12:09 YourHarry wrote:
Did we just catch 2 scums??

On August 15 2012 12:09 YourHarry wrote:
Shady, don't leave us. Let's find the third scum.

On August 15 2012 12:24 YourHarry wrote:
Never mind. I am confident Solarsail is town. Move on.

##Unvote

On August 15 2012 13:20 YourHarry wrote:
Shady. I guess there is a small chance that I could be wrong. But if I am right, it is not a good idea to reveal this information. Let's move on for now.

On August 15 2012 13:28 YourHarry wrote:
Actually I find mkfuba suspicious. Although I think Solar did act somewhat scummy (and I voted him at one point), I think Solar is town. There were four people who thought Solar was scum: Shady, YourHarry, thrawn, and mkfuba. After three people expressed suspicion on Solar, Mkfuba opportunistically but non-committingly fuels Solar bandwagon:

On August 15 2012 13:51 YourHarry wrote:
Fine. Maybe I was paranoid. I expected Solar to continue to act against pro-town behavior and I thought you were trying to use that to further support his wagon.

On August 15 2012 13:49 YourHarry wrote:
You are defending Solar on writing and even pointing out that Shady's case seems insubstantial, but expecting Solar to continue his trolling behavior, you can use that to accuse him.

On August 15 2012 13:54 YourHarry wrote:
I found mkfuba scummy, but I may have been too focused on people trying to target Solar.

On August 15 2012 14:17 YourHarry wrote:
Mkfuba, good question! But not quite correct, I checked my PM before I posted. But you are in the right ball park.

But let's forget everything I said about Solar. I will re-evaluate when more people post.

On August 15 2012 14:26 YourHarry wrote:
Shady, maybe I am wrong. I take back what I said about Solar. But for now, he seems be a newbie town that is overly confident based to his town alignment. Sorry, if I am not making any sense right now...

On August 15 2012 18:45 DarthPunk wrote:


Evoking responses is important, but so is providing analysis and content which you have barely done. Without a solid base of analysis and content (especially that which is not a near fraudulent interpretation of something near meaningless) in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day.
There is not much material to work off yet you have encouraged everyone to bandwagon on the back of your interpretation of one post and solars subsequent reactions. (which are far more suspicious than any case on him you have provided.)



So my case on you is equally as weak as your cases? Yet you are presenting mine as invalid and yours as valid. The crucial difference between us is I have actually posted substantial cases based on the analysis of large amounts of posts in your filter and have followed the case up with additional content. You twisted near meaningless posts made at the very beginning of day one and have made a huge leap of assumption to even provide anything at all. And have followed that up with nothing further aside from fluff. My case is not nearly as weak as yours.

The cases you made based on those posts were a gigantic stretch at best. Tunnelling these people without providing additional insight or content is harmful to town.

On August 15 2012 18:45 DarthPunk wrote:


Evoking responses is important, but so is providing analysis and content which you have barely done. Without a solid base of analysis and content (especially that which is not a near fraudulent interpretation of something near meaningless) in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day.
There is not much material to work off yet you have encouraged everyone to bandwagon on the back of your interpretation of one post and solars subsequent reactions. (which are far more suspicious than any case on him you have provided.)



So my case on you is equally as weak as your cases? Yet you are presenting mine as invalid and yours as valid. The crucial difference between us is I have actually posted substantial cases based on the analysis of large amounts of posts in your filter and have followed the case up with additional content. You twisted near meaningless posts made at the very beginning of day one and have made a huge leap of assumption to even provide anything at all. And have followed that up with nothing further aside from fluff. My case is not nearly as weak as yours.

The cases you made based on those posts were a gigantic stretch at best. Tunnelling these people without providing additional insight or content is harmful to town.

On August 15 2012 18:45 DarthPunk wrote:


Evoking responses is important, but so is providing analysis and content which you have barely done. Without a solid base of analysis and content (especially that which is not a near fraudulent interpretation of something near meaningless) in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day.
There is not much material to work off yet you have encouraged everyone to bandwagon on the back of your interpretation of one post and solars subsequent reactions. (which are far more suspicious than any case on him you have provided.)



So my case on you is equally as weak as your cases? Yet you are presenting mine as invalid and yours as valid. The crucial difference between us is I have actually posted substantial cases based on the analysis of large amounts of posts in your filter and have followed the case up with additional content. You twisted near meaningless posts made at the very beginning of day one and have made a huge leap of assumption to even provide anything at all. And have followed that up with nothing further aside from fluff. My case is not nearly as weak as yours.

The cases you made based on those posts were a gigantic stretch at best. Tunnelling these people without providing additional insight or content is harmful to town.

On August 15 2012 12:01 Shady Sands wrote:


Basically I read this:



And it didn't make sense to me. Why would Solar make this post if he's town? It's not pro-town to post on which style a scum might or might be playing. Then I read his post in context of the first post that stutters made, and it seemed like Solar is trying to soft accuse stutters--because stutters post was short, and didn't hold any information that disagrees with the general direction (as telling people to read a guide is about as plain as someone can get.)

The second possibility here, aside from soft-accusing stutters, is that Solar is trying to look participatory. He states this himself, later. Why would a townie try to look participatory from his first post onwards? No one has accused Solar of anything yet, so why the desire to look like he's contributing (as opposed to actually saying something of substance instead of guessing at what the scum must be feeling?)

Both these possibilities lead to a scum Solarsail.

## FoS Solarsail

On August 15 2012 18:54 Shady Sands wrote:


The way I play this game is to tunnel people until they either convince me that they're town or they end up dead via lynch or NK. That's how each townie should play this game--letting analysis go before one is satisfied is how scum slip out of our fingers.

On August 15 2012 18:58 Shady Sands wrote:
I just want to make this simple: are you committing to your read on me as the scummiest player so far?

On August 15 2012 19:16 goodkarma wrote:
Expect a meaningful case writeup on who I suspect to be likely scum sometime tomorrow.

A couple quick comments before bed though...

Regarding the suspicions going at Shady:
Yes, he may have maintained a high degree of activity with few case points presented by himself, but to his credit he has gotten town talking and meaningful discussion rolling. I'm content to see him "prod" people, as someone needs to do this. And his case on YourHarry is definitely a good start in the right direction. Let's keep in mind there's three scum, not just one. So let's each try to give multiple scum reads where possible instead of tunneling one person at a time. Especially since if everyone tunnels the same guy today, and doesn't discuss other suspects in any detail, we pretty much go into day one all over again (if we mislynch) come day 2.

I would have liked, for example, to hear a little more about Shady's "scum reads" on some of the people he's prodded prior and taken a break from, especially Solarsail.


And regarding reading our filters from prior games:

This is a newbie game, meaning filters are very sparse. A two-game "meta read" is hardly anything to go off of, as you can't honestly expect people to make exactly the same mistakes in their play over and over again. Everyone's gameplay will definitely change in the first few games. It's near-impossible to get a real "play pattern" off like two games, and I don't feel a "meta-read" is really going to be that valuable... If anything, it will make people over-suspicious of people who have a strong scum history, and overly-trusting of those with a strong town history.

On August 15 2012 11:54 Solarsail wrote:


HOW ABOUT

NOT DYING

SMILEY FACE

On August 15 2012 19:24 DarthPunk wrote:


So you dropped your cases on SolarSail and Thrawn because you were entirely satisfied? are you scum slipping out of my fingers? Link me to the posts in which you become satisfied enough to drop your cases.
Or are you dropping them because you have realised they are backfiring. Hard.

I will look at the YourHarry case. The way he flipped on and off of SolarSail was suspicious and I am therefore rereading the thread and his filter.




What kind of question is this? What does answering this question contribute to town? I will analyse and present cases on whoever I see as suspicious time allowing. I have found others scummy, you were the first that particularly jumped out at me.

On August 15 2012 19:19 Shady Sands wrote:


The bigger issue, Darth, is why you are holding me responsible for a lack of analysis and content so far when I've been trying the hardest to get people to commit to reads on people and post more cases. Also, how is this post below:



A lack of content and analysis? I note that you didn't include it in your long train of quotes on me, perhaps because it doesn't fit the picture you're trying to paint. So I ask you: How is the above case a bad case? How does it not provide content or analysis?

If you can't find answers to those questions, then I'd respectfully ask you to start applying your own strict standards to YourHarry, who, by your logic, should be a far bigger scum than I am.