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On August 15 2012 19:30 Shady Sands wrote:
Also, the question I asked you is to nail you down, Darth, because it seemed like you were saying I was scummiest player in the thread.
But I think I misread your first post--thought you were FoS'ing me after reading through everyone else's posts, when you clearly hadn't done that at all. I look forward to seeing how your reads change once you've read more of the thread.
I have read the thread twice. Your actions were particularly suspicious and thus I read through your filter carefully and presented my findings.
You want to nail me down? are you implying that you find me scummy without going so far as to say it? My read on you won't change after I re-read the thread. Nothing you have said has quelled my suspicions of you. I may find others suspicious also. That does not require me to not find you suspicious as you are attempting to imply.
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EBWOP: My FoS on Shady stands until I am satisfied, which I am not presently. I will re-read the thread and Your Harry's filter and post my thoughts.
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On August 15 2012 19:39 DarthPunk wrote:
EBWOP: My FoS on Shady stands until I am satisfied, which I am not presently. I will re-read the thread and Your Harry's filter and post my thoughts.
Okay. Looking forward to your reread.
JHuyt, welcome to the thread. I find your first post a little wierd:
My experience from other mafia games is that the first day is a dead day and accusations made on the first day rarely holds any water.
Despite that I think that Shady's case against YH is good, he's very inconsistent which in my experience is how unexperienced scum behaves.
I'm sorry, but I don't think I can be of any more use until new evidence is posted.
This is just a flat lazy post. There's been nearly 5 pages of back and forth going on about not just YH, but Solarsail, Thrawn, even YH's quasi-case on Mkfuba, not to mention Darth's long FoS on me. Yet your whole summation is that
1) First day is a wasted day, and basically useless (subtly encouraging other people not to try very hard and make cases)
2) Inexperienced scum often post inconsistently, hence the poster who has been making the most posts (and hence runs the greatest risk of looking inconsistent) is likely scum
Even if this was not borne out of a scum intent to weaken town, this is anti-town play. I'd recommend you take a good, hard look at the cases already posted and come back to the thread, else an FoS will be in order for:
--extremely scummy first post
--being the last one into the thread.
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EBWOP:
Also, the third reason for a probable FoS on you will be:
--Pre-emptively excusing yourself from having to perform serious analysis until other people post more cases, giving you an excuse/opportunity to sheep people safely
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On August 15 2012 19:36 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 19:30 Shady Sands wrote:
Also, the question I asked you is to nail you down, Darth, because it seemed like you were saying I was scummiest player in the thread.
But I think I misread your first post--thought you were FoS'ing me after reading through everyone else's posts, when you clearly hadn't done that at all. I look forward to seeing how your reads change once you've read more of the thread. I have read the thread twice. Your actions were particularly suspicious and thus I read through your filter carefully and presented my findings. You want to nail me down? are you implying that you find me scummy without going so far as to say it? My read on you won't change after I re-read the thread. Nothing you have said has quelled my suspicions of you. I may find others suspicious also. That does not require me to not find you suspicious as you are attempting to imply.
No, I don't find you scummy. I'm doing this because town benefits when players formally commit to reads and are as explicit as possible.
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On August 15 2012 19:32 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 19:19 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 18:45 DarthPunk wrote:On August 15 2012 18:32 Shady Sands wrote:
I see basically two lines of accusation here.
1) I'm asking a ton of questions and making it look like I'm contributing without actually contributing anything.
2) My two cases on Thrawn and Solar are weak.
In response to 1): First, since it's only 12 hours into D1, there's not much material to work off of. That's why most of the posts have consisted of throwing around questions rather than 400 word case posts. Second, evoking responses, at this stage of the game, is critical. Without a solid base of accusations and counter-accusations in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. Evoking responses is important, but so is providing analysis and content which you have barely done. Without a solid base of analysis and content (especially that which is not a near fraudulent interpretation of something near meaningless) in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. There is not much material to work off yet you have encouraged everyone to bandwagon on the back of your interpretation of one post and solars subsequent reactions. (which are far more suspicious than any case on him you have provided.) On August 15 2012 18:32 Shady Sands wrote:
In response to 2): I'm not certain how you can say your own case on me is any stronger than the cases I've put out on Thrawn and Solar. You seem to imply that since I called out Thrawn for being WIFOM/fluffy, and according to you, I've made more "fluff" posts than he has, then I'm more suspicious. But the case on Thrawn didn't rest on being WIFOM, it rested on the fact that Thrawn led off with an extremely long and odd rant on the SK; the case on Solar likewise didn't rest on that sort of accusation either--rather, it rested on the fact that he was actively being hostile to the town rather than defending himself AND his first post on what the scum was thinking was extremely suspicious. So my case on you is equally as weak as your cases? Yet you are presenting mine as invalid and yours as valid. The crucial difference between us is I have actually posted substantial cases based on the analysis of large amounts of posts in your filter and have followed the case up with additional content. You twisted near meaningless posts made at the very beginning of day one and have made a huge leap of assumption to even provide anything at all. And have followed that up with nothing further aside from fluff. My case is not nearly as weak as yours. The cases you made based on those posts were a gigantic stretch at best. Tunnelling these people without providing additional insight or content is harmful to town. The bigger issue, Darth, is why you are holding me responsible for a lack of analysis and content so far when I've been trying the hardest to get people to commit to reads on people and post more cases. Also, how is this post below: On August 15 2012 12:01 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 11:43 thrawn2112 wrote:
Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar? It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case.
Still waiting for several people to post up... I'm gonna take a break for an hour or so and I will join back in once more people have posted. Basically I read this: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. And it didn't make sense to me. Why would Solar make this post if he's town? It's not pro-town to post on which style a scum might or might be playing. Then I read his post in context of the first post that stutters made, and it seemed like Solar is trying to soft accuse stutters--because stutters post was short, and didn't hold any information that disagrees with the general direction (as telling people to read a guide is about as plain as someone can get.) The second possibility here, aside from soft-accusing stutters, is that Solar is trying to look participatory. He states this himself, later. Why would a townie try to look participatory from his first post onwards? No one has accused Solar of anything yet, so why the desire to look like he's contributing (as opposed to actually saying something of substance instead of guessing at what the scum must be feeling?) Both these possibilities lead to a scum Solarsail. ## FoS Solarsail A lack of content and analysis? I note that you didn't include it in your long train of quotes on me, perhaps because it doesn't fit the picture you're trying to paint. So I ask you: How is the above case a bad case? How does it not provide content or analysis? If you can't find answers to those questions, then I'd respectfully ask you to start applying your own strict standards to YourHarry, who, by your logic, should be a far bigger scum than I am. I have mentioned that case several times. It is largely based on wild and convoluted assumptions in order to lead to anything meaningful. I have said previously you are either more guilty of the things you are accusing him of or are making assumptions based on a largely innocuous post. The not all, but the Overwhelming Majority of your posts are fluff. and the Analysis you do present is bad or a stretch. Which begs the question. Why would you be making such absurd stretches in your 'analysis' unless you are serving an agenda? I will look at Your Harry also. I have only been back for a short while and need to reread the thread. However I find it unusual that you are now, after suspicion has been cast upon you, casting aside your earlier cases without a clear or satisfying reason and trying to shift attention onto Your Harry.
Again, you're saying my analysis is bad or a stretch without stating why they're bad. What's wrong with the case I've posted above? What are the holes? Until you can answer those questions, your case on me doesn't help the town.
Furthermore, I am not casting aside those cases without a clear or satisfying reason. You're framing me for things I haven't done, which is anti-town. I explicitly stated that I'm moving to YH because I find his behavior even scummier than Thrawn's or Solar's. Furthermore, I stated why I think pushing on Thrawn or Solar when they're not in the thread and can't respond won't generate the sort of discussion that ends up helping the town.
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EBWOP: Furthermore, I stated why I think continuing to to push on Thrawn or Solar when they're not in the thread and can't respond won't generate the sort of discussion that ends up helping the town.
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Hmm, you're right, I should try to be more helpful.
On Solar: This is just how he is in general from what I've seen on TL, so I don't have anything there.
On Shady: Shady tries to control the game, which is an act that I don't often see in normal townies, I've most often encountered it when a scum tries to make everybody think he's the sheriff. It is, however, a game of high risk and relies heavily on the actual sheriff being useless. He might be the sheriff as well, and this is why I think the first day is kinda silly, I don't know what to think solely based on his posts, they seem consistent.
I still think that YourHarry is something scummy simply because his posting behavior is strange, on everybody else, I need more evidence before making up my mind.
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On August 15 2012 19:58 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 19:32 DarthPunk wrote:On August 15 2012 19:19 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 18:45 DarthPunk wrote:On August 15 2012 18:32 Shady Sands wrote:
I see basically two lines of accusation here.
1) I'm asking a ton of questions and making it look like I'm contributing without actually contributing anything.
2) My two cases on Thrawn and Solar are weak.
In response to 1): First, since it's only 12 hours into D1, there's not much material to work off of. That's why most of the posts have consisted of throwing around questions rather than 400 word case posts. Second, evoking responses, at this stage of the game, is critical. Without a solid base of accusations and counter-accusations in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. Evoking responses is important, but so is providing analysis and content which you have barely done. Without a solid base of analysis and content (especially that which is not a near fraudulent interpretation of something near meaningless) in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. There is not much material to work off yet you have encouraged everyone to bandwagon on the back of your interpretation of one post and solars subsequent reactions. (which are far more suspicious than any case on him you have provided.) On August 15 2012 18:32 Shady Sands wrote:
In response to 2): I'm not certain how you can say your own case on me is any stronger than the cases I've put out on Thrawn and Solar. You seem to imply that since I called out Thrawn for being WIFOM/fluffy, and according to you, I've made more "fluff" posts than he has, then I'm more suspicious. But the case on Thrawn didn't rest on being WIFOM, it rested on the fact that Thrawn led off with an extremely long and odd rant on the SK; the case on Solar likewise didn't rest on that sort of accusation either--rather, it rested on the fact that he was actively being hostile to the town rather than defending himself AND his first post on what the scum was thinking was extremely suspicious. So my case on you is equally as weak as your cases? Yet you are presenting mine as invalid and yours as valid. The crucial difference between us is I have actually posted substantial cases based on the analysis of large amounts of posts in your filter and have followed the case up with additional content. You twisted near meaningless posts made at the very beginning of day one and have made a huge leap of assumption to even provide anything at all. And have followed that up with nothing further aside from fluff. My case is not nearly as weak as yours. The cases you made based on those posts were a gigantic stretch at best. Tunnelling these people without providing additional insight or content is harmful to town. The bigger issue, Darth, is why you are holding me responsible for a lack of analysis and content so far when I've been trying the hardest to get people to commit to reads on people and post more cases. Also, how is this post below: On August 15 2012 12:01 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 11:43 thrawn2112 wrote:
Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar? It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case.
Still waiting for several people to post up... I'm gonna take a break for an hour or so and I will join back in once more people have posted. Basically I read this: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. And it didn't make sense to me. Why would Solar make this post if he's town? It's not pro-town to post on which style a scum might or might be playing. Then I read his post in context of the first post that stutters made, and it seemed like Solar is trying to soft accuse stutters--because stutters post was short, and didn't hold any information that disagrees with the general direction (as telling people to read a guide is about as plain as someone can get.) The second possibility here, aside from soft-accusing stutters, is that Solar is trying to look participatory. He states this himself, later. Why would a townie try to look participatory from his first post onwards? No one has accused Solar of anything yet, so why the desire to look like he's contributing (as opposed to actually saying something of substance instead of guessing at what the scum must be feeling?) Both these possibilities lead to a scum Solarsail. ## FoS Solarsail A lack of content and analysis? I note that you didn't include it in your long train of quotes on me, perhaps because it doesn't fit the picture you're trying to paint. So I ask you: How is the above case a bad case? How does it not provide content or analysis? If you can't find answers to those questions, then I'd respectfully ask you to start applying your own strict standards to YourHarry, who, by your logic, should be a far bigger scum than I am. I have mentioned that case several times. It is largely based on wild and convoluted assumptions in order to lead to anything meaningful. I have said previously you are either more guilty of the things you are accusing him of or are making assumptions based on a largely innocuous post. The not all, but the Overwhelming Majority of your posts are fluff. and the Analysis you do present is bad or a stretch. Which begs the question. Why would you be making such absurd stretches in your 'analysis' unless you are serving an agenda? I will look at Your Harry also. I have only been back for a short while and need to reread the thread. However I find it unusual that you are now, after suspicion has been cast upon you, casting aside your earlier cases without a clear or satisfying reason and trying to shift attention onto Your Harry. Again, you're saying my analysis is bad or a stretch without stating why they're bad. What's wrong with the case I've posted above? What are the holes? Until you can answer those questions, your case on me doesn't help the town. Furthermore, I am not casting aside those cases without a clear or satisfying reason. You're framing me for things I haven't done, which is anti-town. I explicitly stated that I'm moving to YH because I find his behavior even scummier than Thrawn's or Solar's. Furthermore, I stated why I think pushing on Thrawn or Solar when they're not in the thread and can't respond won't generate the sort of discussion that ends up helping the town.
I am not framing you for things you haven't done. Why such a melodramatic Defense? You case was bad, because it was based on an assumption and the convoluted scum motivation you presented alongside that assumption. It was a stretch because the assumption you made was a stretch. Your cases bring very little to the table, and unlike XXII you are not confirmed town and cannot get away with such questionable arguments.
You explicitly stated you were dropping the cases on them for now. Why not just move on without saying anything?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With that being said. I strongly encourage everyone to read Your Harry's Filter It is so ridiculous that I feel bad I didn't jump on it sooner.
@YOUR HARRY acting like you have some sort of outside information to make a PANTS ON HEAD series of posts is very suspicious and unless you have a rock solid excuse for what your filter currently consists of I have a very large;
FoS## Your Harry
On August 15 2012 13:20 YourHarry wrote:
Shady. I guess there is a small chance that I could be wrong. But if I am right, it is not a good idea to reveal this information. Let's move on for now.
It is 100% a good idea to reveal this information right now.
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Good morning.
I intend to be civil and not emotional from now on. My posts were very deliberately an attempt to get discussion going and see what people's alignments were, and this was a success in that I want to point out two people. My behaviour was consistently anti-town, so a good town player would be telling me to stop being erratic but not defending me.
So, first I want to discuss Shady Sands. Apart from one-line questioning of me, and the unneeded insistence on filters as has been pointed out, he has done little else and none of his arguments have been reasonable or backed up by evidence. His enduring suspicion of me based on the first post doesn't make sense because it was just the second post and neither town nor mafia would have a motivation to start accusing someone at that point. If it was just to start discussion in itself why would he persist in asserting it for the next eight pages as if it was substantial.
Secondly, the continued defence of me by Thrawn has no basis. I was clearly being anti-town. Some evidence:
"I am still of the opinion that solar's posts are somewhat likely to be emotional overreactions rather than scummy."
"Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar?"
"Most of the discussion right now is about solarsail. I don't think there's anything wrong with this because so far his posts haven't seemed very useful but we have still yet to hear from several players. He could easily be town and just reacting to everyone immediately jumping on his case as soon as the game starts."
"Suspicion of a soft accusation is hardly good evidence that he should be lynched especially when there has been so little discussion so far so I am not sold on your case against him."
There is little reason to defend me so much unless your motivation is to defend someone he knows to be town player for deflection reasons.
--
I am unvoting because my original vote was baseless and I want to hear Shady's response before making a serious attempt at voting him.
Unvote
The thread consensus has been that I'm town. Thus if I am mafia I have nothing to gain from changing my playstyle now.
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On August 15 2012 20:19 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 19:58 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 19:32 DarthPunk wrote:On August 15 2012 19:19 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 18:45 DarthPunk wrote:On August 15 2012 18:32 Shady Sands wrote:
I see basically two lines of accusation here.
1) I'm asking a ton of questions and making it look like I'm contributing without actually contributing anything.
2) My two cases on Thrawn and Solar are weak.
In response to 1): First, since it's only 12 hours into D1, there's not much material to work off of. That's why most of the posts have consisted of throwing around questions rather than 400 word case posts. Second, evoking responses, at this stage of the game, is critical. Without a solid base of accusations and counter-accusations in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. Evoking responses is important, but so is providing analysis and content which you have barely done. Without a solid base of analysis and content (especially that which is not a near fraudulent interpretation of something near meaningless) in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. There is not much material to work off yet you have encouraged everyone to bandwagon on the back of your interpretation of one post and solars subsequent reactions. (which are far more suspicious than any case on him you have provided.) On August 15 2012 18:32 Shady Sands wrote:
In response to 2): I'm not certain how you can say your own case on me is any stronger than the cases I've put out on Thrawn and Solar. You seem to imply that since I called out Thrawn for being WIFOM/fluffy, and according to you, I've made more "fluff" posts than he has, then I'm more suspicious. But the case on Thrawn didn't rest on being WIFOM, it rested on the fact that Thrawn led off with an extremely long and odd rant on the SK; the case on Solar likewise didn't rest on that sort of accusation either--rather, it rested on the fact that he was actively being hostile to the town rather than defending himself AND his first post on what the scum was thinking was extremely suspicious. So my case on you is equally as weak as your cases? Yet you are presenting mine as invalid and yours as valid. The crucial difference between us is I have actually posted substantial cases based on the analysis of large amounts of posts in your filter and have followed the case up with additional content. You twisted near meaningless posts made at the very beginning of day one and have made a huge leap of assumption to even provide anything at all. And have followed that up with nothing further aside from fluff. My case is not nearly as weak as yours. The cases you made based on those posts were a gigantic stretch at best. Tunnelling these people without providing additional insight or content is harmful to town. The bigger issue, Darth, is why you are holding me responsible for a lack of analysis and content so far when I've been trying the hardest to get people to commit to reads on people and post more cases. Also, how is this post below: On August 15 2012 12:01 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 11:43 thrawn2112 wrote:
Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar? It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case.
Still waiting for several people to post up... I'm gonna take a break for an hour or so and I will join back in once more people have posted. Basically I read this: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. And it didn't make sense to me. Why would Solar make this post if he's town? It's not pro-town to post on which style a scum might or might be playing. Then I read his post in context of the first post that stutters made, and it seemed like Solar is trying to soft accuse stutters--because stutters post was short, and didn't hold any information that disagrees with the general direction (as telling people to read a guide is about as plain as someone can get.) The second possibility here, aside from soft-accusing stutters, is that Solar is trying to look participatory. He states this himself, later. Why would a townie try to look participatory from his first post onwards? No one has accused Solar of anything yet, so why the desire to look like he's contributing (as opposed to actually saying something of substance instead of guessing at what the scum must be feeling?) Both these possibilities lead to a scum Solarsail. ## FoS Solarsail A lack of content and analysis? I note that you didn't include it in your long train of quotes on me, perhaps because it doesn't fit the picture you're trying to paint. So I ask you: How is the above case a bad case? How does it not provide content or analysis? If you can't find answers to those questions, then I'd respectfully ask you to start applying your own strict standards to YourHarry, who, by your logic, should be a far bigger scum than I am. I have mentioned that case several times. It is largely based on wild and convoluted assumptions in order to lead to anything meaningful. I have said previously you are either more guilty of the things you are accusing him of or are making assumptions based on a largely innocuous post. The not all, but the Overwhelming Majority of your posts are fluff. and the Analysis you do present is bad or a stretch. Which begs the question. Why would you be making such absurd stretches in your 'analysis' unless you are serving an agenda? I will look at Your Harry also. I have only been back for a short while and need to reread the thread. However I find it unusual that you are now, after suspicion has been cast upon you, casting aside your earlier cases without a clear or satisfying reason and trying to shift attention onto Your Harry. Again, you're saying my analysis is bad or a stretch without stating why they're bad. What's wrong with the case I've posted above? What are the holes? Until you can answer those questions, your case on me doesn't help the town. Furthermore, I am not casting aside those cases without a clear or satisfying reason. You're framing me for things I haven't done, which is anti-town. I explicitly stated that I'm moving to YH because I find his behavior even scummier than Thrawn's or Solar's. Furthermore, I stated why I think pushing on Thrawn or Solar when they're not in the thread and can't respond won't generate the sort of discussion that ends up helping the town. I am not framing you for things you haven't done. Why such a melodramatic Defense? You case was bad, because it was based on an assumption and the convoluted scum motivation you presented alongside that assumption. It was a stretch because the assumption you made was a stretch. Your cases bring very little to the table, and unlike XXII you are not confirmed town and cannot get away with such questionable arguments. You explicitly stated you were dropping the cases on them for now. Why not just move on without saying anything? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With that being said. I strongly encourage everyone to read Your Harry's Filter It is so ridiculous that I feel bad I didn't jump on it sooner. @YOUR HARRY acting like you have some sort of outside information to make a PANTS ON HEAD series of posts is very suspicious and unless you have a rock solid excuse for what your filter currently consists of I have a very large; FoS## Your HarryShow nested quote +On August 15 2012 13:20 YourHarry wrote:
Shady. I guess there is a small chance that I could be wrong. But if I am right, it is not a good idea to reveal this information. Let's move on for now. It is 100% a good idea to reveal this information right now.
You're saying I was abandoning the cases for no reason, when I clearly stated I was temporarily dropping them to look at someone who I thought was scummier. There's a key difference between those actions and I think we need to be on the same page as to what they are.
As for my cases on Solar and Thrawn, what assumptions were they based on that you found faulty? You still haven't responded to the specifics in my case at all.
I'm not giving you a hard time here because I think you're scum--on the contrary, it's because you're a pretty logical player that I feel I need to convince you.
Glad to see we agree on YH.
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On August 15 2012 20:35 Solarsail wrote:
Good morning.
I intend to be civil and not emotional from now on. My posts were very deliberately an attempt to get discussion going and see what people's alignments were, and this was a success in that I want to point out two people. My behaviour was consistently anti-town, so a good town player would be telling me to stop being erratic but not defending me.
So, first I want to discuss Shady Sands. Apart from one-line questioning of me, and the unneeded insistence on filters as has been pointed out, he has done little else and none of his arguments have been reasonable or backed up by evidence. His enduring suspicion of me based on the first post doesn't make sense because it was just the second post and neither town nor mafia would have a motivation to start accusing someone at that point. If it was just to start discussion in itself why would he persist in asserting it for the next eight pages as if it was substantial.
Secondly, the continued defence of me by Thrawn has no basis. I was clearly being anti-town. Some evidence:
"I am still of the opinion that solar's posts are somewhat likely to be emotional overreactions rather than scummy."
"Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar?"
"Most of the discussion right now is about solarsail. I don't think there's anything wrong with this because so far his posts haven't seemed very useful but we have still yet to hear from several players. He could easily be town and just reacting to everyone immediately jumping on his case as soon as the game starts."
"Suspicion of a soft accusation is hardly good evidence that he should be lynched especially when there has been so little discussion so far so I am not sold on your case against him."
There is little reason to defend me so much unless your motivation is to defend someone he knows to be town player for deflection reasons.
--
I am unvoting because my original vote was baseless and I want to hear Shady's response before making a serious attempt at voting him.
Unvote
The thread consensus has been that I'm town. Thus if I am mafia I have nothing to gain from changing my playstyle now.
Solar, glad to see you come around. That being said, how can you say that Thrawn's soft defense on you seems scummy when YH basically did a 180 between voting you and unvoting you within the span of 40 minutes, on the basis of some mysterious read he had?
Also, I'd recommend you look at what DP and I have been going over in the past 2 pages. Current town focus is on YH.
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On August 15 2012 20:35 Solarsail wrote:
Good morning.
I intend to be civil and not emotional from now on. My posts were very deliberately an attempt to get discussion going and see what people's alignments were, and this was a success in that I want to point out two people. My behaviour was consistently anti-town, so a good town player would be telling me to stop being erratic but not defending me.
So, first I want to discuss Shady Sands. Apart from one-line questioning of me, and the unneeded insistence on filters as has been pointed out, he has done little else and none of his arguments have been reasonable or backed up by evidence. His enduring suspicion of me based on the first post doesn't make sense because it was just the second post and neither town nor mafia would have a motivation to start accusing someone at that point. If it was just to start discussion in itself why would he persist in asserting it for the next eight pages as if it was substantial.
Secondly, the continued defence of me by Thrawn has no basis. I was clearly being anti-town. Some evidence:
"I am still of the opinion that solar's posts are somewhat likely to be emotional overreactions rather than scummy."
"Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar?"
"Most of the discussion right now is about solarsail. I don't think there's anything wrong with this because so far his posts haven't seemed very useful but we have still yet to hear from several players. He could easily be town and just reacting to everyone immediately jumping on his case as soon as the game starts."
"Suspicion of a soft accusation is hardly good evidence that he should be lynched especially when there has been so little discussion so far so I am not sold on your case against him."
There is little reason to defend me so much unless your motivation is to defend someone he knows to be town player for deflection reasons.
--
I am unvoting because my original vote was baseless and I want to hear Shady's response before making a serious attempt at voting him.
Unvote
The thread consensus has been that I'm town. Thus if I am mafia I have nothing to gain from changing my playstyle now.
Also, the whole point about prodding your second post was that it didn't make sense for town to post something like
"oh I can't imagine how scared a newbie mafia member would be in a game like this"
I still haven't heard a satisfactory answer as to why you could post something like that. Glad to know the subsequent hostility was all an act, though. Will keep your acting ability in mind.
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On August 15 2012 20:18 Jhuyt wrote:
Hmm, you're right, I should try to be more helpful.
On Solar: This is just how he is in general from what I've seen on TL, so I don't have anything there.
On Shady: Shady tries to control the game, which is an act that I don't often see in normal townies, I've most often encountered it when a scum tries to make everybody think he's the sheriff. It is, however, a game of high risk and relies heavily on the actual sheriff being useless. He might be the sheriff as well, and this is why I think the first day is kinda silly, I don't know what to think solely based on his posts, they seem consistent.
I still think that YourHarry is something scummy simply because his posting behavior is strange, on everybody else, I need more evidence before making up my mind.
First you soft defend Solar. Solar already said he was deliberately posting in an anti-town way.
Then you say my posts are inconsistent and therefore scummy. Now you say you don't know what to think solely based on my posts, and that they seem consistent. What?
Then you sheep what DP and I have been posting on YH.
This isn't the sort of drastically improved posting I was looking for.
## FoS JHuyt
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EBWOP: This
Then you say my posts are inconsistent and therefore scummy. Now you say you don't know what to think solely based on my posts, and that they seem consistent. What?
Should read
Then you switch from saying my posts are inconsistent and therefore scummy to saying you don't know what to think solely based on my posts, and that they seem consistent. What?
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I also put a FoS on yourharry.
On August 15 2012 20:19 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 19:58 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 19:32 DarthPunk wrote:On August 15 2012 19:19 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 18:45 DarthPunk wrote:On August 15 2012 18:32 Shady Sands wrote:
I see basically two lines of accusation here.
1) I'm asking a ton of questions and making it look like I'm contributing without actually contributing anything.
2) My two cases on Thrawn and Solar are weak.
In response to 1): First, since it's only 12 hours into D1, there's not much material to work off of. That's why most of the posts have consisted of throwing around questions rather than 400 word case posts. Second, evoking responses, at this stage of the game, is critical. Without a solid base of accusations and counter-accusations in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. Evoking responses is important, but so is providing analysis and content which you have barely done. Without a solid base of analysis and content (especially that which is not a near fraudulent interpretation of something near meaningless) in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. There is not much material to work off yet you have encouraged everyone to bandwagon on the back of your interpretation of one post and solars subsequent reactions. (which are far more suspicious than any case on him you have provided.) On August 15 2012 18:32 Shady Sands wrote:
In response to 2): I'm not certain how you can say your own case on me is any stronger than the cases I've put out on Thrawn and Solar. You seem to imply that since I called out Thrawn for being WIFOM/fluffy, and according to you, I've made more "fluff" posts than he has, then I'm more suspicious. But the case on Thrawn didn't rest on being WIFOM, it rested on the fact that Thrawn led off with an extremely long and odd rant on the SK; the case on Solar likewise didn't rest on that sort of accusation either--rather, it rested on the fact that he was actively being hostile to the town rather than defending himself AND his first post on what the scum was thinking was extremely suspicious. So my case on you is equally as weak as your cases? Yet you are presenting mine as invalid and yours as valid. The crucial difference between us is I have actually posted substantial cases based on the analysis of large amounts of posts in your filter and have followed the case up with additional content. You twisted near meaningless posts made at the very beginning of day one and have made a huge leap of assumption to even provide anything at all. And have followed that up with nothing further aside from fluff. My case is not nearly as weak as yours. The cases you made based on those posts were a gigantic stretch at best. Tunnelling these people without providing additional insight or content is harmful to town. The bigger issue, Darth, is why you are holding me responsible for a lack of analysis and content so far when I've been trying the hardest to get people to commit to reads on people and post more cases. Also, how is this post below: On August 15 2012 12:01 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 11:43 thrawn2112 wrote:
Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar? It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case.
Still waiting for several people to post up... I'm gonna take a break for an hour or so and I will join back in once more people have posted. Basically I read this: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. And it didn't make sense to me. Why would Solar make this post if he's town? It's not pro-town to post on which style a scum might or might be playing. Then I read his post in context of the first post that stutters made, and it seemed like Solar is trying to soft accuse stutters--because stutters post was short, and didn't hold any information that disagrees with the general direction (as telling people to read a guide is about as plain as someone can get.) The second possibility here, aside from soft-accusing stutters, is that Solar is trying to look participatory. He states this himself, later. Why would a townie try to look participatory from his first post onwards? No one has accused Solar of anything yet, so why the desire to look like he's contributing (as opposed to actually saying something of substance instead of guessing at what the scum must be feeling?) Both these possibilities lead to a scum Solarsail. ## FoS Solarsail A lack of content and analysis? I note that you didn't include it in your long train of quotes on me, perhaps because it doesn't fit the picture you're trying to paint. So I ask you: How is the above case a bad case? How does it not provide content or analysis? If you can't find answers to those questions, then I'd respectfully ask you to start applying your own strict standards to YourHarry, who, by your logic, should be a far bigger scum than I am. I have mentioned that case several times. It is largely based on wild and convoluted assumptions in order to lead to anything meaningful. I have said previously you are either more guilty of the things you are accusing him of or are making assumptions based on a largely innocuous post. The not all, but the Overwhelming Majority of your posts are fluff. and the Analysis you do present is bad or a stretch. Which begs the question. Why would you be making such absurd stretches in your 'analysis' unless you are serving an agenda? I will look at Your Harry also. I have only been back for a short while and need to reread the thread. However I find it unusual that you are now, after suspicion has been cast upon you, casting aside your earlier cases without a clear or satisfying reason and trying to shift attention onto Your Harry. Again, you're saying my analysis is bad or a stretch without stating why they're bad. What's wrong with the case I've posted above? What are the holes? Until you can answer those questions, your case on me doesn't help the town. Furthermore, I am not casting aside those cases without a clear or satisfying reason. You're framing me for things I haven't done, which is anti-town. I explicitly stated that I'm moving to YH because I find his behavior even scummier than Thrawn's or Solar's. Furthermore, I stated why I think pushing on Thrawn or Solar when they're not in the thread and can't respond won't generate the sort of discussion that ends up helping the town. I am not framing you for things you haven't done. Why such a melodramatic Defense? You case was bad, because it was based on an assumption and the convoluted scum motivation you presented alongside that assumption. It was a stretch because the assumption you made was a stretch. Your cases bring very little to the table, and unlike XXII you are not confirmed town and cannot get away with such questionable arguments. You explicitly stated you were dropping the cases on them for now. Why not just move on without saying anything? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With that being said. I strongly encourage everyone to read Your Harry's Filter It is so ridiculous that I feel bad I didn't jump on it sooner. @YOUR HARRY acting like you have some sort of outside information to make a PANTS ON HEAD series of posts is very suspicious and unless you have a rock solid excuse for what your filter currently consists of I have a very large; FoS## Your HarryShow nested quote +On August 15 2012 13:20 YourHarry wrote:
Shady. I guess there is a small chance that I could be wrong. But if I am right, it is not a good idea to reveal this information. Let's move on for now. It is 100% a good idea to reveal this information right now.
It was this post that most confused me out of all of harry's.
On August 15 2012 14:17 YourHarry wrote:
Mkfuba, good question! But not quite correct, I checked my PM before I posted. But you are in the right ball park.
But let's forget everything I said about Solar. I will re-evaluate when more people post.
After re-reading this thread, the 'right ball park' comment immediately caused me to start suspecting harry. It just doesnt seem like something somebody who is town would want to say. It looks like you are trying hint at something without ever saying it, but wouldn't a town player assume that any hints they drop intended for town players might also be picked up on by scum? What ball park are we talking about and why did you say mkfuba's question was a good question?
On August 15 2012 12:09 YourHarry wrote:
Did we just catch 2 scums??
On August 15 2012 12:09 YourHarry wrote:
Shady, don't leave us. Let's find the third scum.
These posts struck me as a little strange. YH is showing an eagerness, in fact the most eagerness out of anyone, to push a conclusion towards whatever reads (of solar and myself) have been presented, reads which so far people have found weak and/or unsubstantiated.
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On YH:
Looking at his filter that's even more erratic than I was acting. Worthless vote, full on vote rescinded within a page, not sharing information are all indicators. I'm waiting for YH's response particularly on the 'information' he has.
Shady, I still feel the same about you.
- I understand why you said filters are useful. Why the insistence on everyone /posting/ filters? They are accessible to anyone who is interested, given that we at most have two previous games to look at, and you've mentioned it far more than just a few posts to remind everyone they exist.
- The explanation for my post is what I originally said: I had this feeling once and I didn't know most in this game had far more experience than me so I wanted to point that out from experience. Nothing else intended by that. After I defended that (weak) accusation, you continued to press me on it instead of pressing me on my anti-town posting which was far and away the most standout thing about me. You actually underreacted to the fake vote and my responses to you.
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On August 15 2012 20:58 Solarsail wrote:
On YH:
Looking at his filter that's even more erratic than I was acting. Worthless vote, full on vote rescinded within a page, not sharing information are all indicators. I'm waiting for YH's response particularly on the 'information' he has.
Shady, I still feel the same about you.
- I understand why you said filters are useful. Why the insistence on everyone /posting/ filters? They are accessible to anyone who is interested, given that we at most have two previous games to look at, and you've mentioned it far more than just a few posts to remind everyone they exist.
- The explanation for my post is what I originally said: I had this feeling once and I didn't know most in this game had far more experience than me so I wanted to point that out from experience. Nothing else intended by that. After I defended that (weak) accusation, you continued to press me on it instead of pressing me on my anti-town posting which was far and away the most standout thing about me. You actually underreacted to the fake vote and my responses to you.
I want everyone to post filters because it's convenient that way. At first, I thought about simply congregating all the filter links myself into a mega-post, but I thought people would think that was spammy (after I got called out for doing a similar "list post" in XXII). But I do want those sorts of filters conveniently laid out, since that does help town.
As for the underreaction, that was mostly because in XXII, I ended up really pissing off another townie by incessantly harping about how his responses were basically hostile ad hominems (kind of like yours), to the point where he just stopped participating in the thread right (told the entire town to "crash, burn, and die") as we were about to lynch the Godfather. I didn't want something similar happening again.
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YH's "But let's forget everything I said about Solar." (per Thrawn's quote)
Mafia games are not about forgetting. Whatever you (YH) said is on record, whatever suspicions you have do not go away over single posts. What made you change your mind so completely that you now want to forget what you said before hand?
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On August 15 2012 20:58 Solarsail wrote:
On YH:
Looking at his filter that's even more erratic than I was acting. Worthless vote, full on vote rescinded within a page, not sharing information are all indicators. I'm waiting for YH's response particularly on the 'information' he has.
Shady, I still feel the same about you.
- I understand why you said filters are useful. Why the insistence on everyone /posting/ filters? They are accessible to anyone who is interested, given that we at most have two previous games to look at, and you've mentioned it far more than just a few posts to remind everyone they exist.
- The explanation for my post is what I originally said: I had this feeling once and I didn't know most in this game had far more experience than me so I wanted to point that out from experience. Nothing else intended by that. After I defended that (weak) accusation, you continued to press me on it instead of pressing me on my anti-town posting which was far and away the most standout thing about me. You actually underreacted to the fake vote and my responses to you.
No worries about having that feeling once. I can understand what you're trying to say now. My suspicions will be better cleared if you can actually provide the link to the first mafia game you were talking about.
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EPT
