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On August 02 2012 20:42 Ange777 wrote:
So many sorrys and excuses for your inactive/bad play. I don't know what you want to achieve by stating that over and over again. If you really were sorry and felt bad, you would step up your play. This gives me a really scummy vibe.
Another thing that makes me suspicious right now is how you completely ignore the scumslip by Zork. Apparentely you are suspicious of Zork but after reading that scumslip you decide to just solely answer my question instead of commenting on it? Were you trying to distance yourself from your scum buddy but were taken by surprise by the revealment of this slip and now you don't know how to react?
This is exactly right.
Mord has not addressed the cases against him. He has backed away from the prom lynch at 100 miles an hour and apologised repeatedly/made excuses for, his scummy play.
He does not really believe his cases and has no interest in following them up (in fact that is better for him because he can easily back away from them saying he wasn't sure, didn't really think he was scum etc. like he has with promethelax), he is only interested in self preservation and peoples perceptions of him.
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@ ange777.
The zork scumslip combined with his lurky posting habits are certainly cause for suspicion. I don't like his explanation for the statement. He is saying that he looks at certain posts through different roles but does not actually explain the slip at all. What was he trying to say there? It was WIFOM pure and simple. He has not answered the case on him adequately and he has not provided much in the way of cases. The problem with both Zorkmid and aRyuujin is that there is so little to actually make a read from.
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Just came back and on my way working on the Mordanis case.
On August 02 2012 20:58 Ange777 wrote:
@alan: Did you see my post about Zork's scumslip?
Yes, I saw it right after I finished writing my defence against Mordanis, but I did not comment on it as I don't follow the logic, and I am in a rush out. Do you mind explaining where the slip is?
I read that as:- "Saying something like that is scummy. No green or blue will say this. I won't say it because it is so scummy to say it."
While I am not a big fan of the over-exaggeration on the "scumminess" of just one phrase, I don't see the slip. Why would town want to say something that he thinks is "scummy"?
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On August 03 2012 00:00 DarthPunk wrote:
@ ange777.
The zork scumslip combined with his lurky posting habits are certainly cause for suspicion. I don't like his explanation for the statement. He is saying that he looks at certain posts through different roles but does not actually explain the slip at all. What was he trying to say there? It was WIFOM pure and simple. He has not answered the case on him adequately and he has not provided much in the way of cases.
What are you talking about?
I honestly can't see how one person, let alone two people would see this as a slip.
Let me walk you through what I assumed to be pretty straight forward logic.
I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less.
I think that most people followed this logic just fine, as it contributed to Prom's mis-lynch.
On August 03 2012 00:00 DarthPunk wrote:The problem with both Zorkmid and aRyuujin is that there is so little to actually make a read from.
I don't post as often as many players, but at least what I do post has some thought behind it.
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@Zorkmid
On July 31 2012 22:46 Zorkmid wrote:
I also think that your "relief post" is strange. It's sort of WIFOM, but I don't think that as a green or blue I would ever post something like that. It's just yelling out "I'm A TOWNIE huehuehue". I wouldn't post it because it reeks of redness
Zork says he doesn't think that as a green or blue he would ever post that. Why does he need to say "as a green or blue"? This already proves that he does not think of himself as green or blue! Because when he sees the "relief post", he sees it from scum's perspective thinking it would be such a scummy statement for himself to say due to confirmation bias.
On August 02 2012 21:42 Zorkmid wrote:
So reasoning out what types of statements I think that greens and blues would or wouldn't make is my scumslip? My HUGE scumslip? Give me a break. One of the ways that I do analysis is to try and look at the suspicious posts through the lens of different roles.
He explains he just likes to analyze through different roles. If you were town, YOU WOULD NOT BE A DIFFERENT ROLE!
On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote:What are you talking about? I honestly can't see how one person, let alone two people would see this as a slip. Let me walk you through what I assumed to be pretty straight forward logic. I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less.I think that most people followed this logic just fine, as it contributed to Prom's mis-lynch.Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 00:00 DarthPunk wrote:The problem with both Zorkmid and aRyuujin is that there is so little to actually make a read from. I don't post as often as many players, but at least what I do post has some thought behind it.
You say your posts have some thought behind it? The "relief post" did not in any way lead to Prom's mislynch as the post was made by goodkarma. Instead of defending yourself appropriately and posting thoughtful cases you are trying to twist the existing facts. Running out of explanation options?
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On August 03 2012 00:59 Ange777 wrote:@Zorkmid
Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 22:46 Zorkmid wrote:
I also think that your "relief post" is strange. It's sort of WIFOM, but I don't think that as a green or blue I would ever post something like that. It's just yelling out "I'm A TOWNIE huehuehue". I wouldn't post it because it reeks of redness Zork says he doesn't think that as a green or blue he would ever post that. Why does he need to say "as a green or blue"? This already proves that he does not think of himself as green or blue! Because when he sees the "relief post", he sees it from scum's perspective thinking it would be such a scummy statement for himself to say due to confirmation bias.
I'm going to let someone else explain to you why this is stupid. Volunteers?
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On August 03 2012 01:02 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 00:59 Ange777 wrote:@Zorkmid
On July 31 2012 22:46 Zorkmid wrote:
I also think that your "relief post" is strange. It's sort of WIFOM, but I don't think that as a green or blue I would ever post something like that. It's just yelling out "I'm A TOWNIE huehuehue". I wouldn't post it because it reeks of redness Zork says he doesn't think that as a green or blue he would ever post that. Why does he need to say "as a green or blue"? This already proves that he does not think of himself as green or blue! Because when he sees the "relief post", he sees it from scum's perspective thinking it would be such a scummy statement for himself to say due to confirmation bias. I'm going to let someone else explain to you why this is stupid. Volunteers?
Giving up? Not even trying to defend your blatant lie anymore?
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On August 02 2012 16:57 Ange777 wrote:@JingleHell:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 06:41 JingleHell wrote:
Well, either SS is a VERY smart rolecop scum, (plausible, and this would be one sexy play if that was the case), or he's a mason. For now, I think, I'll give BOTD instead of WIFOMing to death, and move on to something I've been interested in for a while now, but refrained from comment on. There is no rolecop scum in this setup. Please check the OP about the setup. Show nested quote +Mr Ange777, I note that you at one point wanted me to dive through the thread, and post reads on as many people as I could. On August 02 2012 03:36 Ange777 wrote:On August 02 2012 03:28 JingleHell wrote:On August 02 2012 03:22 Ange777 wrote:
I have been rereading the entire day 2 conversation in light of Promethelax' alignment and will be posting soon. Your filter is unfortunately the biggest null read at the moment so how about you state your other suspicions? Or are you only suspicious of Shady at the moment? Well, ignoring the fact that I still haven't finished reading all of the thread yet, I personally prefer not to branch out too much at a time. I'd rather get answers to one set of suspicions than dilute the thread with 20 different tangential arguments. Accusing me of being a null read is sort of reasonable, of course, but frankly, all I can do now is either try to make a case on every single person, which would provide some content but look fishy, or wait for enough discussion to happen for people to get a read on me. I have absolutely no idea why anybody with a pro-town mentality would want me to spam a huge pile of clutter trying to make sense out of 600-700 posts simultaneously. At best, trying to make reads on everyone still alive based on discussions I wasn't in for would amount to a lot of WIFOM. I get the not having finished reading all of the thread part. And while I understand that it takes a while to get into a game at the start of night 2, I still believe that you can make good reads on the other players because you haven't been here for the discussion. It makes you unbiased. And looking back at the conversation after a mislynch only considering the flip and not your own judgement may be a plus point for you. Unfortunately, shortly after that point, you suddenly were perfectly happy to jump onto the real Sand Shady. On August 02 2012 04:13 Ange777 wrote:
Okay, so one player I am unhappy with at the moment is Shady and his last minute cases before the deadline.
The only motive I can see for this is to set up a fall guy, namely myself, for the death of one Shady Sands, by encouraging me down that track. I was already wondering if this was a possibility before the flip and claim, and now... well, you don't look so hot to me. Can you please explain a rational and plausible townie motive for this? Are you serious Jingle? This is ridiculous. You clearly stated that you did not want to make any rushed reads as you have not finished reading the thread and then you do exactly what you said you would not do. I had my suspicions about Shady early in day 1 which where never cleared until his now believable mason claim. I was in no way encouraging you instead I was giving my own read before deadline. Assuming that this has a scum motivation is just a huge huge stretch. And just to be clear, I never once said that you should post reads on as many people as you could. I asked if you had any other scum reads or whether Shady was your only scum read as you only commented on him since you subbed in. Now that you are accusing me of setting up a mislynch I should be able to assume that you have indeed finished reading the thread. So how about you give us your other scum reads? Seeing as quite a lot of people seemed quite excited for you to join this game I had hoped you would contribute more. At this moment, I don't see any pro town behaviour at all.
This isn't a defense. You aren't showing me a town motive. You're dismissing a question. That's not a quick read. That's called discussing things and looking for potential slips. It's how I work. Don't like it? Too bad.
Frankly, it looks like you're trying to push me into playing differently because you don't like what I said, with an implicit threat to try and get me lynched if I don't do what you want. It's shady as all hell.
##Vote Ange777
Now, if you want to have any hope of my vote changing, you'll explain a town motive for your play regarding myself and Shady, rather than trying to turn things back on me, which is scum behavior.
Funny how all of a sudden you don't like the unbiased outsider when he sees something you said as funny.
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On August 03 2012 01:08 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 01:02 Zorkmid wrote:On August 03 2012 00:59 Ange777 wrote:@Zorkmid
On July 31 2012 22:46 Zorkmid wrote:
I also think that your "relief post" is strange. It's sort of WIFOM, but I don't think that as a green or blue I would ever post something like that. It's just yelling out "I'm A TOWNIE huehuehue". I wouldn't post it because it reeks of redness Zork says he doesn't think that as a green or blue he would ever post that. Why does he need to say "as a green or blue"? This already proves that he does not think of himself as green or blue! Because when he sees the "relief post", he sees it from scum's perspective thinking it would be such a scummy statement for himself to say due to confirmation bias. I'm going to let someone else explain to you why this is stupid. Volunteers? Giving up? Not even trying to defend your blatant lie anymore?
By what logic does my saying "as a green or blue" prove that I'm red?
If someone said, "if I were a cop, I'd check player X" would that prove they're not cops?
Why are you tunnelling me with NOTHING?
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On August 01 2012 14:20 aRyuujin wrote:
Im so sorry I completely forgot to vote -.-
My bad, I knew i would be busy but I didn't put up a vote before hand like I did day 1. Thanks hosts for not modkilling me yet <3, wont happen again
I think that you, just like MrMedic, owe us an explanation of who you would have voted for and why.
If it weren't for the Mod lowering the number of votes required, there would have been a no-lynch.
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@Goodkarma
I'm looking at your post about voting records. On day 2, both Keirathi and Prom voted for you. I want to examine their cases on you, since they were made by 2 confirmed townies, as well as Shady's.
From Prom:
+ Show Spoiler +I know it is obscenely long don't worry. It is easy to simplify. There are three points.
1 the use of 'a' instead of 'my'
2 I told him not to do something that is actually against the rules
3 my overuse of the word town
and
4 OMGUSOMGUSOMGUS
seriously that is the entirety of his case against me. The only point which might be valid is the third but it was a joke (one I now regret obviously) since saying I was pro-town without being pro-town was how Kier had caught me in XIX. I honestly thought the use of town beers and a town line instead of town circle made it really obvious it was a joke. I should have known there were secret Romanians on TL Mafia.
So karma: out of those three points one is pants-on-head, one is semantics and one is me being dumb enough to joke around. Where is this case you don't think I can respond to. You have talked about my posting habits as a possible fourth point but I can't do anything about that. I'm here while I am home and awake and that will continue until town wins or I am lynched/nk'd
He follows all of this up with a decent case against the same lurker he wanted to lynch d1. Cases against semi-lurkers are the easiest to make as mafia and tunneling one player gives you an easy out when you are wrong about anything else. This play continues to read as scum to me and, therefore,
## Vote: Karma
At the time, it seemed like a big part of his case on you was him just trying to turn the focus back onto you, which can indicate scumminess, but he wasn't. He believed your tunnelling, and accusations on "semi-lurkers" reads as scum behavior. I agree with him to the extent that those are the easier targets. You yourself are one of the least active posters so far (in a game fraught with inactivity).
From Keir:
+ Show Spoiler +
It doesn't make any sense for a townie to claim that he has reads and not share them before the night ends. If you had died, you never would have gotten to post them, and you would have completely wasted your time and hurt the thread overall. Were you completely unafraid of dying?
Also, you said you would post them before the night ended in your previous post - Hide Spoiler -
On July 29 2012 07:57 goodkarma wrote:
With the day passed, and our first flip, I plan on making a rather lengthy analysis thread on top suspects. I promise to have it before night ends, but don't expect to see it for several hours.
. I don't particularly like that you promised something and didn't deliver.
After reading through the thread again, I still feel the strongest about GK and Obvious. However, I admit I am still super wary of Promethelax, but I don't know if he deserves a lynch yet. My real concern though is that if he is town, Mafia has very, very little reason to NK him at this point even if he doesn't get lynched. In our last game together, the fact that he was so obviously "pro-town" and still alive by the 4th day was really suspicious. I'm pretty torn about what to do regarding him, because if he IS town, mislynching him would hurt us fairly badly.
I will say that his cases in this game, compared to his cases in XIX where he was scum, are 100% better. To use his own terms from the end of XIX: "I liked my pants-on-head retarded connection theories."
There is one similarity from XIX and this game that I will mention that I haven't before. In day 1 on XIX, he pushed a case on another townie really hard, and then after day 1 he virtually quit mentioning it for no reason. Or rather, mentioned it a few times but without any real conviction or pressure. It kind of feels like the same thing he's done to Shady in this game.
I think that the most salient point that Keir brought up in his case against you was your not sharing your reads before the night was over. You responded that:
It clearly states in the thread that I was following Alan's advice. I was afraid that by posting something wrong and dieing, I would be leading the town into another mislynch. Alan has since then brought up the point that it wasn't that impressions were posted, but rather that the people in his game who were night-killed had tunnel vision and were only pursuing single suspects.
In other words, yes. Not posting my impressions at night was a mistake, and I realize that now.
If I were a town player, + Show Spoiler + I'd feel more worried about getting NKed if I posted something right, not wrong.
From Keir's will:
+ Show Spoiler +Regarding goodkarma, this is what I had to say and I want it remembered in my absence: I find repeatedly pushing to have lurkers lynched is an anti-town trait. Our goal is to lynch scum. You claim it's impossible to make solid reads on day 1, but without people making reads, our ability to get successful lynches later in the game diminishes. Repeatedly trying to sheep us back onto lurkers and away from active cases is suspicious.
Just another re-iteration of Prom's point that lurkers are easier to form cases about, and the risk of a scum slip is lower as a result. I agree.
From Shady:
Shady never FoS'ed or Voted for you, but he has talked about you.
+ Show Spoiler +Here's my read on GK:
I'm not really sure why he would zero in on aRyuujin like that. Basically GK's rationale for lynching people is:
Filter people who "appear active" --> Find those who are active but who are light on the content --> Start analyzing and prepping for lynch.
So he filtered 3 people out who appear active:
aRyu
MrMedic
Promethelax
Then he says hmmm aRyu is contributing the least... and then seems to forget about the other two and keep digging on aRyu.
Now aRyu obviously doesn't do town any favors by making his defense consist of haikus, but the shift by GK to just focusing on aRyu was a little off to me.
His shift Golbat was well-timed and well-explained, so nothing can be really inferred from that.
I'm not suspicious of GK right now, but I am a little puzzled by why he would drop MrMedic and Promethelax so quickly from his list of suspicious inactives, given that MrMedic hasn't voted and Promethelax seems to space his posts 14 hours apart and ignored the giant debate on Mordanis/Golbat entirely.
This a third player who suspects that GK's play is essentially focused on the easy targets, as well as continuing to tunnel them after they have defended themselves.
@GoodKarma
Your posts are big on encouraging others to post cases and contribute, but your filter is lacking in both regards.
Prove me wrong!
##Vote GoodKarma
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On August 03 2012 01:18 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 16:57 Ange777 wrote:@JingleHell:On August 02 2012 06:41 JingleHell wrote:
Well, either SS is a VERY smart rolecop scum, (plausible, and this would be one sexy play if that was the case), or he's a mason. For now, I think, I'll give BOTD instead of WIFOMing to death, and move on to something I've been interested in for a while now, but refrained from comment on. There is no rolecop scum in this setup. Please check the OP about the setup. Mr Ange777, I note that you at one point wanted me to dive through the thread, and post reads on as many people as I could. On August 02 2012 03:36 Ange777 wrote:On August 02 2012 03:28 JingleHell wrote:On August 02 2012 03:22 Ange777 wrote:
I have been rereading the entire day 2 conversation in light of Promethelax' alignment and will be posting soon. Your filter is unfortunately the biggest null read at the moment so how about you state your other suspicions? Or are you only suspicious of Shady at the moment? Well, ignoring the fact that I still haven't finished reading all of the thread yet, I personally prefer not to branch out too much at a time. I'd rather get answers to one set of suspicions than dilute the thread with 20 different tangential arguments. Accusing me of being a null read is sort of reasonable, of course, but frankly, all I can do now is either try to make a case on every single person, which would provide some content but look fishy, or wait for enough discussion to happen for people to get a read on me. I have absolutely no idea why anybody with a pro-town mentality would want me to spam a huge pile of clutter trying to make sense out of 600-700 posts simultaneously. At best, trying to make reads on everyone still alive based on discussions I wasn't in for would amount to a lot of WIFOM. I get the not having finished reading all of the thread part. And while I understand that it takes a while to get into a game at the start of night 2, I still believe that you can make good reads on the other players because you haven't been here for the discussion. It makes you unbiased. And looking back at the conversation after a mislynch only considering the flip and not your own judgement may be a plus point for you. Unfortunately, shortly after that point, you suddenly were perfectly happy to jump onto the real Sand Shady. On August 02 2012 04:13 Ange777 wrote:
Okay, so one player I am unhappy with at the moment is Shady and his last minute cases before the deadline.
The only motive I can see for this is to set up a fall guy, namely myself, for the death of one Shady Sands, by encouraging me down that track. I was already wondering if this was a possibility before the flip and claim, and now... well, you don't look so hot to me. Can you please explain a rational and plausible townie motive for this? Are you serious Jingle? This is ridiculous. You clearly stated that you did not want to make any rushed reads as you have not finished reading the thread and then you do exactly what you said you would not do. I had my suspicions about Shady early in day 1 which where never cleared until his now believable mason claim. I was in no way encouraging you instead I was giving my own read before deadline. Assuming that this has a scum motivation is just a huge huge stretch. And just to be clear, I never once said that you should post reads on as many people as you could. I asked if you had any other scum reads or whether Shady was your only scum read as you only commented on him since you subbed in. Now that you are accusing me of setting up a mislynch I should be able to assume that you have indeed finished reading the thread. So how about you give us your other scum reads? Seeing as quite a lot of people seemed quite excited for you to join this game I had hoped you would contribute more. At this moment, I don't see any pro town behaviour at all. This isn't a defense. You aren't showing me a town motive. You're dismissing a question. That's not a quick read. That's called discussing things and looking for potential slips. It's how I work. Don't like it? Too bad. Frankly, it looks like you're trying to push me into playing differently because you don't like what I said, with an implicit threat to try and get me lynched if I don't do what you want. It's shady as all hell. ##Vote Ange777Now, if you want to have any hope of my vote changing, you'll explain a town motive for your play regarding myself and Shady, rather than trying to turn things back on me, which is scum behavior. Funny how all of a sudden you don't like the unbiased outsider when he sees something you said as funny.
This case against me is simply bad. I'll start from the beginning:
You are asking me for a town motivation for asking about your scum reads? Since when is it scummy to pressure others for their reads especially when that player has not taken any stance at all in the game? I have been completely open with whoever I thought was suspicious and posted cases or questions regarding those players. You just subbed in. We don't know anything about your alignment. Of course it is in the interest of town to get an understanding for whom you believe is suspicious. You saw my explanation: Because you were not involved in previous discussion, you were unbiased and therefore perfectly able to judge what we had posted. Keir agreed with me in this point as well.
Then you accuse me of setting you up for a mislynch. You seem to have a brilliant imagination for I can't make up my mind why you would think that. I have stated my suspicions about Shady several times. Giving one's read before the night ends is perfectly normal as I could have died that night and I wanted to make sure that everyone knows whom I believe is suspicious. If I had indeed been trying to set you up in a mislynch because of your suspicions regarding Shady, shouldn't I have taken a step back from my own case against Shady so that I could accuse you?
So it seems that your explanation for not giving any further comments on players is that you have a different playstyle. One that includes discussion and potential scumslips. Fine, but then show it to me! Oh no wait ... seems like in your entire post you skipped the discussion about Zorkmid and his scumslip! Instead you build up a huge case against me based on what? Literally nothing.
Can the Jingle, who was hyped when joining the game as the savior, really be this bad? No, I don't think so. I believe you saw your scum buddy Zork in trouble and went out to discredit my case and me.
Now, if you want to have any hope of my vote changing, you'll explain a town motive for your play regarding myself and Shady, rather than trying to turn things back on me, which is scum behavior.
So "turning things back on you" would be scummy. Cute. Because somehow YOU turned things back on to me. And to be clear, right now I am not pushing you for playing in a different way than me! I am pushing your case for playing the most obvious scum play I have ever seen.
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On August 03 2012 01:38 Zorkmid wrote:
By what logic does my saying "as a green or blue" prove that I'm red?
If someone said, "if I were a cop, I'd check player X" would that prove they're not cops?
Why are you tunnelling me with NOTHING?
Dear Zork. As you are the target of my case I would say there is a hundred percent guarantee that you and I won't agree on this matter. So please save me the trouble of having to repeat myself over and over again and re-read my case once more. Thank you. If someone else besides Zork and Jingle hav any questions regarding my case on Zork, I'll be happy to oblige.
On August 03 2012 01:55 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 14:20 aRyuujin wrote:
Im so sorry I completely forgot to vote -.-
My bad, I knew i would be busy but I didn't put up a vote before hand like I did day 1. Thanks hosts for not modkilling me yet <3, wont happen again I think that you, just like MrMedic, owe us an explanation of who you would have voted for and why. If it weren't for the Mod lowering the number of votes required, there would have been a no-lynch.
You do realize that MrMedic was replaced right?
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On August 03 2012 03:18 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 01:38 Zorkmid wrote:
By what logic does my saying "as a green or blue" prove that I'm red?
If someone said, "if I were a cop, I'd check player X" would that prove they're not cops?
Why are you tunnelling me with NOTHING? Dear Zork. As you are the target of my case I would say there is a hundred percent guarantee that you and I won't agree on this matter. So please save me the trouble of having to repeat myself over and over again and re-read my case once more. Thank you. If someone else besides Zork and Jingle hav any questions regarding my case on Zork, I'll be happy to oblige. Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 01:55 Zorkmid wrote:No. You need to explain the logic that led to "that proves you're red". It is not apparent. On August 01 2012 14:20 aRyuujin wrote:
Im so sorry I completely forgot to vote -.-
My bad, I knew i would be busy but I didn't put up a vote before hand like I did day 1. Thanks hosts for not modkilling me yet <3, wont happen again I think that you, just like MrMedic, owe us an explanation of who you would have voted for and why. If it weren't for the Mod lowering the number of votes required, there would have been a no-lynch. You do realize that MrMedic was replaced right?
I do.
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Fucking formatting....
On August 03 2012 03:18 Ange777 wrote:
Dear Zork. As you are the target of my case I would say there is a hundred percent guarantee that you and I won't agree on this matter. So please save me the trouble of having to repeat myself over and over again and re-read my case once more. Thank you. If someone else besides Zork and Jingle hav any questions regarding my case on Zork, I'll be happy to oblige.
No. You need to explain the logic that led to "that proves you're red". It is not apparent.
You do realize that MrMedic was replaced right?
I do.
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On August 03 2012 03:02 Ange777 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 01:18 JingleHell wrote:On August 02 2012 16:57 Ange777 wrote:@JingleHell:On August 02 2012 06:41 JingleHell wrote:
Well, either SS is a VERY smart rolecop scum, (plausible, and this would be one sexy play if that was the case), or he's a mason. For now, I think, I'll give BOTD instead of WIFOMing to death, and move on to something I've been interested in for a while now, but refrained from comment on. There is no rolecop scum in this setup. Please check the OP about the setup. Mr Ange777, I note that you at one point wanted me to dive through the thread, and post reads on as many people as I could. On August 02 2012 03:36 Ange777 wrote:On August 02 2012 03:28 JingleHell wrote:On August 02 2012 03:22 Ange777 wrote:
I have been rereading the entire day 2 conversation in light of Promethelax' alignment and will be posting soon. Your filter is unfortunately the biggest null read at the moment so how about you state your other suspicions? Or are you only suspicious of Shady at the moment? Well, ignoring the fact that I still haven't finished reading all of the thread yet, I personally prefer not to branch out too much at a time. I'd rather get answers to one set of suspicions than dilute the thread with 20 different tangential arguments. Accusing me of being a null read is sort of reasonable, of course, but frankly, all I can do now is either try to make a case on every single person, which would provide some content but look fishy, or wait for enough discussion to happen for people to get a read on me. I have absolutely no idea why anybody with a pro-town mentality would want me to spam a huge pile of clutter trying to make sense out of 600-700 posts simultaneously. At best, trying to make reads on everyone still alive based on discussions I wasn't in for would amount to a lot of WIFOM. I get the not having finished reading all of the thread part. And while I understand that it takes a while to get into a game at the start of night 2, I still believe that you can make good reads on the other players because you haven't been here for the discussion. It makes you unbiased. And looking back at the conversation after a mislynch only considering the flip and not your own judgement may be a plus point for you. Unfortunately, shortly after that point, you suddenly were perfectly happy to jump onto the real Sand Shady. On August 02 2012 04:13 Ange777 wrote:
Okay, so one player I am unhappy with at the moment is Shady and his last minute cases before the deadline.
The only motive I can see for this is to set up a fall guy, namely myself, for the death of one Shady Sands, by encouraging me down that track. I was already wondering if this was a possibility before the flip and claim, and now... well, you don't look so hot to me. Can you please explain a rational and plausible townie motive for this? Are you serious Jingle? This is ridiculous. You clearly stated that you did not want to make any rushed reads as you have not finished reading the thread and then you do exactly what you said you would not do. I had my suspicions about Shady early in day 1 which where never cleared until his now believable mason claim. I was in no way encouraging you instead I was giving my own read before deadline. Assuming that this has a scum motivation is just a huge huge stretch. And just to be clear, I never once said that you should post reads on as many people as you could. I asked if you had any other scum reads or whether Shady was your only scum read as you only commented on him since you subbed in. Now that you are accusing me of setting up a mislynch I should be able to assume that you have indeed finished reading the thread. So how about you give us your other scum reads? Seeing as quite a lot of people seemed quite excited for you to join this game I had hoped you would contribute more. At this moment, I don't see any pro town behaviour at all. This isn't a defense. You aren't showing me a town motive. You're dismissing a question. That's not a quick read. That's called discussing things and looking for potential slips. It's how I work. Don't like it? Too bad. Frankly, it looks like you're trying to push me into playing differently because you don't like what I said, with an implicit threat to try and get me lynched if I don't do what you want. It's shady as all hell. ##Vote Ange777Now, if you want to have any hope of my vote changing, you'll explain a town motive for your play regarding myself and Shady, rather than trying to turn things back on me, which is scum behavior. Funny how all of a sudden you don't like the unbiased outsider when he sees something you said as funny. This case against me is simply bad. I'll start from the beginning: You are asking me for a town motivation for asking about your scum reads? Since when is it scummy to pressure others for their reads especially when that player has not taken any stance at all in the game? I have been completely open with whoever I thought was suspicious and posted cases or questions regarding those players. You just subbed in. We don't know anything about your alignment. Of course it is in the interest of town to get an understanding for whom you believe is suspicious. You saw my explanation: Because you were not involved in previous discussion, you were unbiased and therefore perfectly able to judge what we had posted. Keir agreed with me in this point as well. Then you accuse me of setting you up for a mislynch. You seem to have a brilliant imagination for I can't make up my mind why you would think that. I have stated my suspicions about Shady several times. Giving one's read before the night ends is perfectly normal as I could have died that night and I wanted to make sure that everyone knows whom I believe is suspicious. If I had indeed been trying to set you up in a mislynch because of your suspicions regarding Shady, shouldn't I have taken a step back from my own case against Shady so that I could accuse you? So it seems that your explanation for not giving any further comments on players is that you have a different playstyle. One that includes discussion and potential scumslips. Fine, but then show it to me! Oh no wait ... seems like in your entire post you skipped the discussion about Zorkmid and his scumslip! Instead you build up a huge case against me based on what? Literally nothing. Can the Jingle, who was hyped when joining the game as the savior, really be this bad? No, I don't think so. I believe you saw your scum buddy Zork in trouble and went out to discredit my case and me. Show nested quote +
Now, if you want to have any hope of my vote changing, you'll explain a town motive for your play regarding myself and Shady, rather than trying to turn things back on me, which is scum behavior.
So "turning things back on you" would be scummy. Cute. Because somehow YOU turned things back on to me. And to be clear, right now I am not pushing you for playing in a different way than me! I am pushing your case for playing the most obvious scum play I have ever seen.
Dear you: You're either trying to get me to answer for the terrible play of the guy I replaced, or asking me to do things I've already explained why I don't want to do. When I ask you what your motive is for something, you both OMGUS me and try to make it sound like I'm the one dropping an OMGUS.
Yes, I find that scummy. Start defending yourself. Attacking me does not qualify as a defense.
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My Case on Mordanis
Why I thought he was “cleared” on day 2
This is based on his day 1 play. He was the first person who started the scum hunting, albeit with an extremely weak case on Keir, I dismissed that as I thought scum would not want to stand out like that in the spot light, while starting up what would benefit town greatly.
+ Show Spoiler + Here are the D1 lynches from several games:
NMM XXI: blue
NMM XX: red
NMM XIX: blue
NMM XVIII: green
NMM XVII: red
NMM XVI: blue
(I couldn't find XV or XIV, so I chose to go to the SNMMs)
SNMM XI: red
SNMM X: green
SNMM IX: green
Also, he went so far to check on Shady Sand’s claim about finding the rate of successful Day 1 lynches. At that time I thought it was an indication of a hardworking townie, and I don’t see any scum motivation in this. Scum would want to distract us from facts, deny us information, or generally, create distortion, so I thought.
Other than that, reading his filters strikes me as him trying to be as transparent as possible; posting every single thought that pop up to his mind, and the advices given was generally good.
What made me change my mind?
It started from here in a case he has written against me:
The whole case is here in case you are interested.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315¤tpage=37#724
While I responded to his post, I did a quick look at his filter and my impression is that all his advises for scumhunting is directly opposite to what he has done in the past.
The first seems like he's just trying to jump on the bandwagon, the second and third contradicting seem like a way to try to make himself sound like he was more sure of his case than he really was. Obviously admitting that you think a case is weak hasn't worked out too well for me, but to me this seems like he was just trying to avoid pressure once Prom flips by trying to make a solid case.
So you openly admit you aren’t sure about a Promethelax lynch, but you voted for him anyway, arguing there are no other stronger reads than him. You get called out for it. Now you suggest doing the opposite is equally scummy. I find my reasoning for voting Promethelax is reasonably solid. My “contradiction” isn’t “contradiction” at all given that I have written one of them before I read the filter, and another one, after. If you think otherwise, why don’t you attack my arguments instead?
Another similar case can be found here:
+ Show Spoiler + Ok, so hopefully you guys aren't so sure I'm scummy you'll hear me out. Part of the reason that I was having trouble coming up with reads D2 is that I had no solid read on what strategy the scum were trying to use. Obviously they were trying to win which includes forcing mislynches and using their kp, but there is so much more to scum strategy. They could be trying to snipe blues, stall scum lynches as long as possible, force a few mislynches before having one blatant scum slip that destroys all lines of discussion, in hopes of "starting anew", bussing, etc. The playstyle for each would be different, so what traits would the scum exhibit? In this way the lack of a KP N1 actually harmed my analysis, as I couldn't think what scum traits to hunt for. Then they kill Keir. As I had mentioned earlier, I don't think Keir's play matched that of a blue, so the scum weren't trying to blue-snipe. Keir had no really solid outstanding cases, so they weren't looking to take pressure off themselves. Keir was, however, an even tempered and logical townie. Scum seem to be trying to destabilize town, either to put themselves in "mayor" position, or to simply eliminate a player whom few seemed to be suspicious of. The more everyone is suspicious of everyone, the less obvious scum slips are. Alternately, Keir may have been a random kp designed to simply keep town from getting more information. Traits that should be looked for then are people who are trying to gain a position of confidence, or active scum, or hardcore-lurking scum.
I don't really think anyone is in a position of trust except for SS. It would have been hypothetically possible for scum to have a "will" written out beforehand, with just the name needing to be changed. The will was posted 12 minutes after the flip, and it contains the people whom he mistrusted, and some other things. If scum were to fake one of these, it would require only one "will" written per night. Assuming the broken link (when I click on the link that was provided in the will, I get a fun TL broken link message) actually provides pretty good evidence, SS is pretty much cleared.
Analytical-Active scum tend to try to out-logic their opponents. Players whose playstyle has been dominated by arguing in pure logic include: No one. Maybe JH at this point, but he's new. Ange, Obvious, Alan, GK, Aryuu, Zork and myself don't fit. The first 5 because they haven't really posted a case, and myself because I've made some pretty bad mistakes. Over-pushing the thing about Keir not being blue, shitty D2 play, and no content N2 when people said I would seem really scummy if I started to go inactive are really dumb mistakes. Mistakes that I should not have made, but they don't fit the motives for an analytical-active scum.
This leaves inactive scum. I am most sure there will be at least one inactive scum 1.) because inactivity by its nature contributes no content, and scum have been trying to deprive us of content, and 2.) there's been basically no pressure on lurkers except for the votes on Aryuu. The main thing I find scummy about GK's play (his timing for policy-talking about lurkers when there was an active scum-hunting conversation happening) has already been discussed, so I'll move on to my other reads.
This huge chunk of text can be summarized here:
+ Show Spoiler +I hope you listen to me.
Scum kills Kier. Kier is clam and logical and does not seem blue.
Scums’ goal seems to be getting rid of strong townie reads.
We can safely assume scums were the active posters trying to lead town, or the lurking scum letting town kill each other.
BTW Shady is cleared.
However, besides Jingle, ME and everyone else who were active cannot be Analytical-Active scum, since we are playing badly and did not really post a case. (what?)
This leaves inactive scum. Inactive scums were the ones who post no content, therefore I find Goodkarma pushing on lurker scummy.
I wrote a case on him so I won’t repeat.
Notice how he maneuver around his analysis suggesting he cannot be scum?
Also, re-reading the night 1 analysis he posted:
+ Show Spoiler +
Anyways, I've been enlisted to do a ton of work and I don't have time to do much analyzing, but I have had more time away from the computer to think. The main goals of the mafia for the D1 lynch were to force a mislynch (unless they are really bad at bussing :D), and put themselves in a position where they can relatively easily avoid a D2 lynch. They knew how whichever candidate was up would flip, so they had the ability to determine where in the vote they would go to minimize their chance to get lynched D2. The people who didn't vote for Golbat are DarthP, Alan, Obvious, Promethelax, and Golbat himself. Darth was tunelling me all day, Alan defended Golbat, Obvious posted two real posts, and Promethelax's play is confusing me too much right now. Right now, Alan, Obvious, and Promethelax are the people I'll be looking at the most. Obvious has the perfect excuses in line (I was away and I voted for Shady), Alan's soft defenses strike me as suspicious (This player seems kind of scummy, but this player seems much more scummy, so vote for him), and I really need to figure out what Promethelax has been trying to accomplish. Sorry again for the brevity, I hope someone else will be able to use this if I die tonight :C
This is basically him saying “look at people who did not vote for Golbat, I am pretty sure scum is in there.” While I agree on the circumstances and the logic of his post, I also noticed he voted for Golbat himself. I did not suspect much when I first saw this, but now it seems to me Mordanis is deliberately trying to take attention away from himself.
Mordanis' tips and/or analysis hides subtle suggestions that he himself is not a scum.
His general inactivity in day 2 contrast greatly with his active day 1 posts. There are people going after him for these reasons, but I would like to add:
+ Show Spoiler +Speculation: This could due to the no-kill in night 1. From this post In this way the lack of a KP N1 actually harmed my analysis, we can see he is trying to justify his inactivity by stating there is a no kill.
Can't believe that all took 3 hours
I won't be able to post more. Its almost 3 am and I really need some shut-eyes. These arguments I wrote, I believe, was not covered, but please refer to other people's case on him for:
Also, I am not able to comment on, perhaps lightly:
I intend to point out Obvious's scummy behaviour
-emphasizing on his non-vote on Promethelax
-His OMGUS against pressure
I intend to point out Zorkmid's scummy behaviour
-Lurkiness in day 1
-His cases based on one liners
I intend to point out aRyu's scummy behaviour
-(What do you call those again?) Poems writing in day 1.
-Disappeared throughout day 2 and not voting
-Disappears again after posting one case in day 3
All those took 15 minutes, that's without re-checking filters for confirmation, and impression based on the back of my mind.
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Could you guys who are posting cases against me put what you think are scum motivations for my play? Because right now it just seems like you're looking at mistakes and calling it scummy without mentioning how it benefits scum or harms town. Basically, when you just sort of point things out and call them scummy without analysis of why it is scummy. It's hard to argue anything other than ad-hominem because there is no underlying reasoning for me to argue. Ta!
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Votecount please, and welcome back from your vacation Ghost|404 not found.
Marv beat us severely while you were gone, can you give him some more cohosting points please?
Would be possible to update (first post) flips/imporant posts?
Catching up on the thread with coffee.
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On August 03 2012 03:24 Zorkmid wrote:Fucking formatting.... Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 03:18 Ange777 wrote:
Dear Zork. As you are the target of my case I would say there is a hundred percent guarantee that you and I won't agree on this matter. So please save me the trouble of having to repeat myself over and over again and re-read my case once more. Thank you. If someone else besides Zork and Jingle hav any questions regarding my case on Zork, I'll be happy to oblige.
No. You need to explain the logic that led to "that proves you're red". It is not apparent.
Zork, I explained it already twice. If you refuse to admit being scum than I can't help it. It's not my job to convince you but town that you are scum. Therefore the following is intended for town's better understanding:
On August 03 2012 00:59 Ange777 wrote:@Zorkmid
Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 22:46 Zorkmid wrote:
I also think that your "relief post" is strange. It's sort of WIFOM, but I don't think that as a green or blue I would ever post something like that. It's just yelling out "I'm A TOWNIE huehuehue". I wouldn't post it because it reeks of redness Zork says he doesn't think that as a green or blue he would ever post that. Why does he need to say "as a green or blue"? This already proves that he does not think of himself as green or blue! Because when he sees the "relief post", he sees it from scum's perspective thinking it would be such a scummy statement for himself to say due to confirmation bias. Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 21:42 Zorkmid wrote:
So reasoning out what types of statements I think that greens and blues would or wouldn't make is my scumslip? My HUGE scumslip? Give me a break. One of the ways that I do analysis is to try and look at the suspicious posts through the lens of different roles.
He explains he just likes to analyze through different roles. If you were town, YOU WOULD NOT BE A DIFFERENT ROLE!
1. Slip: Only scum would see the need to explain that as green or blue he wouldn't have posted that. Town would just simply state: I wouldn't have posted that.
2. Slip: You explain you were looking at suspicious posts from the perspective of a different role. You said being town-aligned you wouldn't post that. You are looking at town-alignment as a different role.
I mean I didn't even pick this relief post up as scummy! But as you are scum, your mind is set differentely. While town is looking at both sides (town motivation and scum motivation), you only need to consider how do I paint others as scum while avoiding any attention on yourself. You can easily spot posts like these and feel "Wow, that would be incredibely scummy!" because that is exactly what you would think makes you look scummy if you had posted it!
Even if we put your scumslip aside and analyze what you have posted since my accusation I would say you are behaving extremely scummy:
You said the following:
On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote:
I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less.
-snip-
I don't post as often as many players, but at least what I do post has some thought behind it.
On August 03 2012 01:55 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 14:20 aRyuujin wrote:
Im so sorry I completely forgot to vote -.-
My bad, I knew i would be busy but I didn't put up a vote before hand like I did day 1. Thanks hosts for not modkilling me yet <3, wont happen again I think that you, just like MrMedic, owe us an explanation of who you would have voted for and why. If it weren't for the Mod lowering the number of votes required, there would have been a no-lynch.
When I brought up the obvious contradiction - 1) Prom did not make that post! That post did not lead to Prom's mislynch! and 2) MrMedic was already replaced by Jingle and can't give us any explanation about his voting behaviour - you totally ignored it and instead focused on the part where I analyze your scumslip.
You claim that you are a thoughtful poster. So how do you explain that blatant lie about Prom? And that post to MrMedic ... You are just desperately trying to deflect from the topic of today's discussion: Your lynch!
And even if all of that were not enough, the reaction from not only you but Jingle just seals the deal for me. You know what is different with you in comparison with our lynch candidates from day 1 and 2? None of them instigated such a heavy discussion. Most of us were politely dis-/agreeing with other players and in the end we always lynched someone without any real resistance. Encountering this much resistance I am so convinced that this time I did catch scum (and not just one!)
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EPT
