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United States8476 Posts
On April 26 2012 01:18 Skyro wrote:So why aren't people going 1-gate 3rd nexus more? http://sc2casts.com/cast8243-Stephano-vs-WhiteRa-Best-of-3-IPL-4-Group-StageIf you go 1-gate 1-gas into 3rd Nexus you can throw it down ~6 mins (while pressuring with some zealots), but ranged and some others seem to grab it after their 3rd or 4th gates and get it ~8 mins. At 6 mins the zerg can't really punish your 3rd unless they've already been massing a lot of units before you even throw down the nexus (the 3 hatch into baneling bust seems to be the most dangerous timing around this time), and in that case you can just cancel it and hole up in your natural and you basically just forced a bunch of units for the cost of some canceled buildings. If you open gate-nexus-core or can go gate before cannon out of a FFE and really chrono WG hard (5x) you can get warp gate done in time to defend any potential responses after the zerg spots your 3rd.
I like this sort of build personally, but there are some arguments against it. First is that while no one does this in the current metagame, it can just die to fast speedlings after 3 hatch. Second is that some people(including morrow: see around page 10 in tang's thread on stephano's roach style) think it's better to expand behind pressure 3-4 minutes later than a straight up expand. Finally, it gives control of the game totally in zerg's hands. They're all valid arguments, but I still like this type of style. I personally take around a 6:40-7 minute 3rd off of 2 gas into something similar white-ra does.
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On April 26 2012 01:58 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 01:18 Skyro wrote:So why aren't people going 1-gate 3rd nexus more? http://sc2casts.com/cast8243-Stephano-vs-WhiteRa-Best-of-3-IPL-4-Group-StageIf you go 1-gate 1-gas into 3rd Nexus you can throw it down ~6 mins (while pressuring with some zealots), but ranged and some others seem to grab it after their 3rd or 4th gates and get it ~8 mins. At 6 mins the zerg can't really punish your 3rd unless they've already been massing a lot of units before you even throw down the nexus (the 3 hatch into baneling bust seems to be the most dangerous timing around this time), and in that case you can just cancel it and hole up in your natural and you basically just forced a bunch of units for the cost of some canceled buildings. If you open gate-nexus-core or can go gate before cannon out of a FFE and really chrono WG hard (5x) you can get warp gate done in time to defend any potential responses after the zerg spots your 3rd. I like this sort of build personally, but there are some arguments against it. First is that while no one does this in the current metagame, it can just die to fast speedlings after 3 hatch. Second is that some people(including morrow: see around page 10 in tang's thread on stephano's roach style) think it's better to expand behind pressure 3-4 minutes later than a straight up expand. Finally, it gives control of the game totally in zerg's hands. They're all valid arguments, but I still like this type of style. I personally take around a 6:40-7 minute 3rd off of 2 gas into something similar white-ra does.
I've played around with it a little bit, and if you go gate-nexus-core or if you can squeeze gate before your first cannon out of a FFE you can get WG (chrono x5) done and have your 3rd walled-off with cannons around the time ling speed is complete out of a 3-hatch no gas opening. Like I said I think the only way they can cancel with lings is if they pre-made a lot of lings before you even throw down your 3rd, otherwise I believe you can hold if they only start making lings after they see your 3rd go down. And even if they pre-made lings and forces a cancel... isn't that a good trade-off anyway? All those lings are now useless as they won't be able to break the wall at your natural.
Of course they could get speed earlier if they go for a gas b/w their 2nd and 3rd hatch but then the 3rd hatch is delayed (thrown down ~5 mins instead of ~4-4:30 mins) which can clue you off. The real threat in my eyes though is banelings, not speedlings since you're sitting on 1 gas for quite a while so you can't afford that many sentries. If you don't sniff it out (via drone count, or spotting mass lings, early ling speed, etc.) then you can just straight up lose the game if they bust your natural.
And I don't play this completely passively. I'm trying this out currently out of a gate-nexus-core opening, and faking pressure with 3 zealots and a probe (to make them think I'm going to proxy a pylon for a WG zealot timing). So you can mix it up by throwing your nexus down @ ~6 or throwing down 2 or 3 gates down instead and hitting a ~7 min +1 zealot timing. Even in the stephano game white-ra still harasses a bit with 2 zealots out of a FFE, but of course he doesn't have the threat of WG being done.
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1 gate into third is a total blind play, which might work well if almost everyone is doing these super late gas builds but otherwise it's just too risky. You have absolutely zero scouting going on so any two base push or earlier speedling timing will kill you or at best just cancel the nexus and leave you behind with no tech.
Yes it can work quite well but I'm not a fan of blind playing like that.. Especially at ladder where play is still quite random from time to time it's just not adviseable.
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On April 26 2012 02:23 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 01:58 NrGmonk wrote:On April 26 2012 01:18 Skyro wrote:So why aren't people going 1-gate 3rd nexus more? http://sc2casts.com/cast8243-Stephano-vs-WhiteRa-Best-of-3-IPL-4-Group-StageIf you go 1-gate 1-gas into 3rd Nexus you can throw it down ~6 mins (while pressuring with some zealots), but ranged and some others seem to grab it after their 3rd or 4th gates and get it ~8 mins. At 6 mins the zerg can't really punish your 3rd unless they've already been massing a lot of units before you even throw down the nexus (the 3 hatch into baneling bust seems to be the most dangerous timing around this time), and in that case you can just cancel it and hole up in your natural and you basically just forced a bunch of units for the cost of some canceled buildings. If you open gate-nexus-core or can go gate before cannon out of a FFE and really chrono WG hard (5x) you can get warp gate done in time to defend any potential responses after the zerg spots your 3rd. I like this sort of build personally, but there are some arguments against it. First is that while no one does this in the current metagame, it can just die to fast speedlings after 3 hatch. Second is that some people(including morrow: see around page 10 in tang's thread on stephano's roach style) think it's better to expand behind pressure 3-4 minutes later than a straight up expand. Finally, it gives control of the game totally in zerg's hands. They're all valid arguments, but I still like this type of style. I personally take around a 6:40-7 minute 3rd off of 2 gas into something similar white-ra does. I've played around with it a little bit, and if you go gate-nexus-core or if you can squeeze gate before your first cannon out of a FFE you can get WG (chrono x5) done and have your 3rd walled-off with cannons around the time ling speed is complete out of a 3-hatch no gas opening.
Something to consider:
After FFE, gate before cannon usually requires gate+cannon before 2nd pylon on most of the current maps. FFE -> 2nd pylon -> cannon -> gate gives a substantial probe boost relative to gate before cannon which is particularly significant for a fast third build that needs maximum probes to pay off.
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On April 26 2012 02:39 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 02:23 Skyro wrote:On April 26 2012 01:58 NrGmonk wrote:On April 26 2012 01:18 Skyro wrote:So why aren't people going 1-gate 3rd nexus more? http://sc2casts.com/cast8243-Stephano-vs-WhiteRa-Best-of-3-IPL-4-Group-StageIf you go 1-gate 1-gas into 3rd Nexus you can throw it down ~6 mins (while pressuring with some zealots), but ranged and some others seem to grab it after their 3rd or 4th gates and get it ~8 mins. At 6 mins the zerg can't really punish your 3rd unless they've already been massing a lot of units before you even throw down the nexus (the 3 hatch into baneling bust seems to be the most dangerous timing around this time), and in that case you can just cancel it and hole up in your natural and you basically just forced a bunch of units for the cost of some canceled buildings. If you open gate-nexus-core or can go gate before cannon out of a FFE and really chrono WG hard (5x) you can get warp gate done in time to defend any potential responses after the zerg spots your 3rd. I like this sort of build personally, but there are some arguments against it. First is that while no one does this in the current metagame, it can just die to fast speedlings after 3 hatch. Second is that some people(including morrow: see around page 10 in tang's thread on stephano's roach style) think it's better to expand behind pressure 3-4 minutes later than a straight up expand. Finally, it gives control of the game totally in zerg's hands. They're all valid arguments, but I still like this type of style. I personally take around a 6:40-7 minute 3rd off of 2 gas into something similar white-ra does. I've played around with it a little bit, and if you go gate-nexus-core or if you can squeeze gate before your first cannon out of a FFE you can get WG (chrono x5) done and have your 3rd walled-off with cannons around the time ling speed is complete out of a 3-hatch no gas opening. Something to consider: After FFE, gate before cannon usually requires gate+cannon before 2nd pylon on most of the current maps. FFE -> 2nd pylon -> cannon -> gate gives a substantial probe boost relative to gate before cannon which is particularly significant for a fast third build that needs maximum probes to pay off.
Yeah and the white-ra game he chrono'ed probes like mad too. He was in such good shape that game but he messed up his late game. So that's the rub, do you want the earlier WG to help defend the 3rd or try and be extra extra greedy and try to maximize probe production? Is it better to try to defend your 3rd if he tries to break it early, or is the cancel costs worth the units you forced from zerg? These are the crucial questions IMO.
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I think early zealot pressure is the answer, but I haven't figured out the best way to do it yet.
I've tried 2 gate expand, which is good but usually doesn't work on someone who's seen it enough.
I'm currently experimenting with Nexus First into 3 Gate Zealots in order to hit their third with about 9-12 zealots at 7-8 minutes. (I think Kiwikaki did this, but with 2 gates?)
Honestly I think just playing more like the zerg is playing could be the answer... Sticking on gateway units with attack upgrades, as well as a twilight council for blink and charge, and getting a quick third....
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On April 26 2012 02:39 Markwerf wrote:
1 gate into third is a total blind play, which might work well if almost everyone is doing these super late gas builds but otherwise it's just too risky. You have absolutely zero scouting going on so any two base push or earlier speedling timing will kill you or at best just cancel the nexus and leave you behind with no tech.
Yes it can work quite well but I'm not a fan of blind playing like that.. Especially at ladder where play is still quite random from time to time it's just not adviseable.
Well you can tell a lot if they went gas or not by the timing of their 3rd hatch. @4mins? No gas. @5mins? Probably 1 gas.
And I don't understand your point about a 2-base push because you will scout the 3rd hatch timing before you have to decide to get your 3rd or not.
If they do cancel your nexus you will be behind on tech, but then zerg is behind on drones. Who is in a better position I'm not sure. But you can really tell the difference b/w a 6 min and 8 min third as your economy really gets rolling very quickly with a 6 min 3rd.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 26 2012 03:59 Barrin wrote:
Honestly, FRB fixes the shit out of this. It fixes it so well that it's completely relevant enough to mention.
Anyways, I'm quite sure that the answer involves having 3++ immortals immediately (after FE). Get so many immortals (not too many) that he is forced to make zerglings too and/or tech switch to (muta/hydra/infestor).
Seriously, what is wrong with this so far?? Theoretically this is your best bet, if this doesn't blind counter mass roach then there is a serious problem. I'm pretty sure heavy immortals blind counters mass roach (minus the fact that he's on 3 bases and you're on 2, but I'm not done yet). I'm not saying you should go run out onto the map if you just make a few immortals, I'm saying some immortals with proper supporting defense (a cannon, a few sentries, a few stalkers) at your natural choke makes mass roach attacks from the front a complete waste. He'll probably do it anyway to free up supply, but it will cut into his economy more than it cuts into yours.
IF he goes for a lot more zerglings (and maybe a few banes if he wants to break your front), DO NOT SWITCH TO COLLOSUS. You need that gas for what comes next, and it's too easy for the zerg to spirestomp you at this point if you go collosus.. Go for Zealots (you should be upgrading damage so zealots 2-shot lings at this point) to counter the zerglings... and get zealot Speed. Only make enough zealots to counter however many lings he made, no more.
At this point you're still on 2-base and he's still on 3. But the good news is that you're not dying. Indeed, you probably even have both army and tech advantage! From here you have a few options, making some sentries (with your immortal+zealots you should have high excess of gas) and killing the third isn't a bad option(notice how we didn't start off with the sentries, not theoretically ideal but yes a necessity). You could also be using that gas for upgrades.
Anyways, from here it depends on what the zerg does. If he's smart he didn't go too all-in with the initial attacks, and he's been filling out his 3-base economy, preparing to receive an attack from you while simultaneously struggling to match your tech. He really wants brood-lord infestor, but you would attack him with 2-base before he's able to set that up (BL+Infestor takes a lot of time and 4+ bases). Since you're not far from collosus tech, he's probably not gonna go hydras; and even though I'm telling you not to get collosus yet, even if he did go hydras you'd be fine.
You have a lot of immortal+zealot. He's gonna go for mutas if he's smart, every time. You've had an observer forever, so you should see the spire coming a mile away. You already have a Twilight Council. Start researching Blink, and put down a Templar Archives. You are tech switching to Blink Stalkers + Archons to counter his muta tech. Which also happens to do quite well vs infestor+brood (and/or any hydra timing he might have tried to do).
Sometime not long before you run out of minerals in your main you will want to take your third. This is no longer as hard as it sounds, because using this strategy you should have gained an army advantage against a 3-base zerg, even if on 1-base.
BTW if he does happen to be aiming for infestor+brood, I recommend busting out a mothership after getting 3-bases. You already have archons.
In the end you have an army/tech advantage and he has an economic advantage like it's kinda supposed to be, and this should put you on roughly equal footing (imo slightly more) in the late game (though for a theoretical blind counter, perhaps it should do more, but this isn't the place to discuss that ^^).
early game: FE; Immortals > roaches
early/mid game: (Speed)zealots > zerglings; Gas excess (upgrades, sentries, next phase)
mid game: (Blink)stalker + archon > lair tech; Assert army/tech advantage to secure (or maybe deny if ahead enough) third.
late game: We're passed the retarded roach timing, tada! You know how to PvZ.
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I have too little experience with Protoss (quite a lot really, just a lot less than many of you) and this makes too much sense and this is too big a problem for me to believe I'm both (a) not missing something and (b) the first person to come up with this.
If I'm missing something, please lmk. Especially if you can point to someone who has already tried/talked about it.
...But I've been watching this problem develop since it's beginning (and even before what many would call it's beginning), and though I definitely haven't seen most PvZ games, I'm astonished at how few people I have seen trying to make a heavily significant amount of Immortals at the early/mid game to counteract the mass Roach in the early/mid game. At risk of giving away that I don't watch much anymore, I actually have never seen anyone try to do it in earnest, which I find quite remarkable.
It's not as simple as immortal > roach... but c'mon... how is that not where it starts?
You really have to play vs it a lot to understand, because it sounds easy on paper. Obviously immortals counter roaches, but there's a lot more to it than that.
- The biggest problem protoss have is securing a third versus this kind of strategy and from your game plan, it seems as if you don't plan to take a third until you have blink stalker/immortal/archon, which is way too late, so your solution doesn't really account for that.
- Another problem is 2 pronged attacks on the natural and third. and immortals are rather bad versus those.
- Finally protosses find that this build is much easier to execute than it is to defend. I've seen platinum players get a 12 minute max with this build; as protoss, you need a perfect build and perfect forcefields to defend, which most players don't have. The build part can eventually be figured out through methods like this thread and pro eventually figuring out good macro buids, but the forcefield part will always be hard for protosses at all levels.
Going back to your specific build, of course I know it's not perfect because you just thought of it, but lemme show you some holes. Your proposed build is also pretty autoloss versus 3 base muta. Any build that doesn't have pressure, an attack, or a fast 3rd is going to have a really hard time vs muta. Zerg can also still run you over with a huge economy if you try to take too late a third with a roach based army. Again, my point is that it isn't that easy. Koreans, however, have been using a 4 gate pressure into robo into 3rd build that gets later immortals and is similar. Axslav has been going 1 gate robo for immortals into 3rd; this can also work. These are just some options with your idea.
Anyways you can find my thought on the issue here. If you read that link, you'll find that, yes, protosses are already heavily using immortals to deal with maxed roaches, yet it's still hard.
Another thing is that most people haven't read through the whole thread, so they keep repeating things that have been brought up. That why most of the posts seem silly as they probably belong in the first 3 pages.
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On April 26 2012 03:59 Barrin wrote:
Honestly, FRB fixes the shit out of this. It fixes it so well that it's completely relevant enough to mention.
Anyways, I'm quite sure that the answer involves having 3++ immortals immediately (after FE). Get so many immortals (not too many) that he is forced to make zerglings too and/or tech switch to (muta/hydra/infestor).
Seriously, what is wrong with this so far?? Theoretically this is your best bet, if this doesn't blind counter mass roach then there is a serious problem. I'm pretty sure heavy immortals blind counters mass roach (minus the fact that he's on 3 bases and you're on 2, but I'm not done yet). I'm not saying you should go run out onto the map if you just make a few immortals, I'm saying some immortals with proper supporting defense (a cannon, a few sentries, a few stalkers) at your natural choke makes mass roach attacks from the front a complete waste. He'll probably do it anyway to free up supply, but it will cut into his economy more than it cuts into yours.
IF he goes for a lot more zerglings (and maybe a few banes if he wants to break your front), DO NOT SWITCH TO COLLOSUS. You need that gas for what comes next, and it's too easy for the zerg to spirestomp you at this point if you go collosus.. Go for Zealots (you should be upgrading damage so zealots 2-shot lings at this point) to counter the zerglings... and get zealot Speed. Only make enough zealots to counter however many lings he made, no more.
At this point you're still on 2-base and he's still on 3. But the good news is that you're not dying. Indeed, you probably even have both army and tech advantage! From here you have a few options, making some sentries (with your immortal+zealots you should have high excess of gas) and killing the third isn't a bad option(notice how we didn't start off with the sentries, not theoretically ideal but yes a necessity). You could also be using that gas for upgrades.
Anyways, from here it depends on what the zerg does. If he's smart he didn't go too all-in with the initial attacks, and he's been filling out his 3-base economy, preparing to receive an attack from you while simultaneously struggling to match your tech. He really wants brood-lord infestor, but you would attack him with 2-base before he's able to set that up (BL+Infestor takes a lot of time and 4+ bases). Since you're not far from collosus tech, he's probably not gonna go hydras; and even though I'm telling you not to get collosus yet, even if he did go hydras you'd be fine.
You have a lot of immortal+zealot. He's gonna go for mutas if he's smart, every time. You've had an observer forever, so you should see the spire coming a mile away. You already have a Twilight Council. Start researching Blink, and put down a Templar Archives. You are tech switching to Blink Stalkers + Archons to counter his muta tech. Which also happens to do quite well vs infestor+brood (and/or any hydra timing he might have tried to do).
Sometime not long before you run out of minerals in your main you will want to take your third. This is no longer as hard as it sounds, because using this strategy you should have gained an army advantage against a 3-base zerg, even if on 1-base.
BTW if he does happen to be aiming for infestor+brood, I recommend busting out a mothership after getting 3-bases. You already have archons.
In the end you have an army/tech advantage and he has an economic advantage like it's kinda supposed to be, and this should put you on roughly equal footing (imo slightly more) in the late game (though for a theoretical blind counter, perhaps it should do more, but this isn't the place to discuss that ^^).
early game: FE; Immortals > roaches
early/mid game: (Speed)zealots > zerglings; Gas excess (upgrades, sentries, next phase)
mid game: (Blink)stalker + archon > lair tech; Assert army/tech advantage to secure (or maybe deny if ahead enough) third.
late game: We're passed the retarded roach timing, tada! You know how to PvZ.
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I have too little experience with Protoss (quite a lot really, just a lot less than many of you) and this makes too much sense and this is too big a problem for me to believe I'm both (a) not missing something and (b) the first person to come up with this.
If I'm missing something, please lmk. Especially if you can point to someone who has already tried/talked about it.
...But I've been watching this problem develop since it's beginning (and even before what many would call it's beginning), and though I definitely haven't seen most PvZ games, I'm astonished at how few people I have seen trying to make a heavily significant amount of Immortals at the early/mid game to counteract the mass Roach in the early/mid game. At risk of giving away that I don't watch much anymore, I actually have never seen anyone try to do it in earnest, which I find quite remarkable.
It's not as simple as immortal > roach... but c'mon... how is that not where it starts?
Nothing personal, but this is waaaay too much theory crafting, and some stuff is (IMO) rather false.
It starts off with the fact if you take your 3rd too late he can just throw some supply away and overrun you with infestors a bit later (and you won't have the eco to stop it in my experience). Also, to go heavy immortal like you describe you are going to have to start building them before you can actually see what he's doing (that's how it is when I go fast robo at least), meaning there are a variety of styles (like fast double ups mass ling/bane stuff like that) you will have serious trouble verses.
Additionally it's actually really hard to scout for a spire, since good zergs always get spores incase of DTs, and spores + queen kills obs veeeery quickly. In other words it's not just a case of clicking through the bases and checking a minute later what your obs saw: it takes time and it's very easy to fuck up (I played a game vs TLO a ~week ago, he actively had queens with overseers looking for obs, AND spores at each base :S).
Then there's the problem that it's (imo) impossible to defend vs a lot of mutas if you don't have blink but a third. He can go into your main, forcing a major portion of your army back to defend, then move his mutas down to support his army attacking the third, and there's no way you can get back in time if you don't already have blink (again, just my experience).
And if you don't have a third and wait for your blink to finish which started at the ~10min mark, he can probably just use the huge eco advantage he's gotten to crush you, or keep you in a bad position you'll never get out of.
What I think should be discussed is whether one should aim to optimize builds that get a passive third (like axlav, ranged and others are doing), or play like morrow suggested by applying pressure before getting a 3rd.
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On April 26 2012 04:16 NrGmonk wrote:
Again, my point is that it isn't that easy. Koreans, however, have been using a 4 gate pressure into robo into 3rd build that gets later immortals and is similar. Axslav has been going 1 gate robo for immortals into 3rd; this can also work. These are just some options with your idea.
I've been experimenting Axslav's 1 gate robo into fast immortals into a 9' third. I've lost with it versus a 11' roaches/hydras timing despite decent force-fields, because honnestly at this timing you have 10 sentries, 3 immortals and a couple zealots/stalkers, which isn't enough to handle the hydras. Strangely, I've seen nobody do an hydra timing on axslav's stream so I'm not sure how he reacts to it. Going reactive colos isn't the solution, that I'm pretty sure of..
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United States8476 Posts
On April 26 2012 04:39 Barrin wrote:I see, tyty ^^ + Show Spoiler +I think I'm sticking to this part, however nonconstructive it may be. On April 26 2012 03:59 Barrin wrote:
... if this doesn't blind counter mass roach then there is a serious problem. But I have a question for you, Protoss players: What map features would help alleviate this problem? far thirds with very small chokes? low money thirds? stronger early game proxy pylon positions? more scarce, more strongly choked bases? ??? dont hold back which ones best preserve PvT?
These would help macro PvZ:
Close thirds(like cloud kingdom) It should be easy to bounce back and forth and you don't have to split armies as much.
Third with only 1 entrance(like daybreak, not like cloud kingdom)
Rocks at the closest third(like talderim and termius re)-hurts zerg overall
Ability to bounce back between natural and 3rd easily(Antiga, Shakruas, and Korhal are anti-examples of this)
If you do a lot of these, it will be overkill, however, like Calm before the Storm, which is Protoss favored. Optimally, you want to be able to stand in one place, sim city your nautral, sim city your 3rd, and easily defend both. Daybreak and Clould Kingdom are relatively good for macro PvZ while Korhal compound and Dual Sight are terrible for macro PvZ.
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I'm only plat, but I'm having a lot of success with FFE - Gate Robo (obs first then morts) 4 Gates (5 Total) - 10-11 min 1/1 ground army with 3 immortals, an obs, 10-12 sentries with Hallucination, followed by a good amount of Zealots. I use this build to secure my third or hit the Zerg's third depending on what I scout with the obs and a lot of hallucinated Phoenixes for scouting tech switches.
Some of the keys to this build are taking your 3rd and 4th gasses very early. Probably fully saturated within the first 10 probes on your nat. Also you have to be really on top of chrono boosting probes. Should have 44 ( both at saturation) by the time you push so you can switch into chrono boosting gates and maybe switching to 8 gates if you've done enough dmg with early pressure.
I usually early pressure with 3 zealots. If he went hatch first, it can do some great damage. I pylon block hatches and look for opportunities to do low cost dmg. I try not to overcommit with the zealots. If I see him scout the zealots coming early, I usually just turn around before actually pushing into his base. Those 3 zealots can really make a lot of difference in your mid game push / hold and hopefully he made around of lings to counter those zealots. Sometimes I've killed as much as 2 queens, 8-12 lings, and forced a cancel on the third. Definitely worth 3 zealots. Losing them to just lings isn't really worth it, imo.
I love this build as a solution to the roach play we've been seeing lately and as a build that gives me a lot of scouting and production, even if I don't have much map control. In the mid to late game, I usually tech switch based off of my scouting. My personal preference is often HT's for archon's, storms, and feedback. This is generally extremely useful vs. most of zerg's switches. Feedback for infestors, storms for muta's, and archons for tanking and splash. <3 archons.
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A lot of people have pointed out that immortals are bad against mutas, and that's true, but very few people (I think just Ranged) have mentioned that immortals aren't actually that good against the roach-ling pressure either. That immortals are a pretty bad addition in this situation isn't intuitive, but it's true nonetheless.
The simple explanation is that immortals tend to auto-target onto the zerglings and they have AWFUL damage against lings.
The more complicated explanation has to do with immobility, positioning and the interaction between forcefields and early-game composition. Because you can't combine forcefields with zealots against Zerg, your immortal composition winds up being stalker-sentry-immortal which collectively has approximately 0 DPS vs zerglings. So you take forever to the lings, your immortals wasting their shots on over-killing cheap light units, and by the time you burn through the lings, the roaches either overwhelm you or back off for 20 seconds until the next giant round of lings shows up. Soon, you have blink, but your forcefields are wearing down, and your immortals become sitting ducks as you preserve your stalkers with blink micro.
A lot of times, you'll be better off with 2 stalkers instead of an immortal, and it's even harder to justify slowing down the timing on your third or your blink or your +2 etc in order to get an earlier robo for more immortals.
If you play it out a lot, you find that immortals aren't a particularly good addition against the roach-ling attack unless you have cannons or zealots to kill zerglings or an exceptional position where you can forcefield all day without running out or screwing up. It just doesn't play out how you'd draw it up in your mind when you think immortal > roach.
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On April 26 2012 03:59 Barrin wrote:
Honestly, FRB fixes the shit out of this. It fixes it so well that it's completely relevant enough to mention.
Anyways, I'm quite sure that the answer involves having 3++ immortals immediately (after FE). Get so many immortals (not too many) that he is forced to make zerglings too and/or tech switch to (muta/hydra/infestor).
Seriously, what is wrong with this so far?? Theoretically this is your best bet, if this doesn't blind counter mass roach then there is a serious problem. I'm pretty sure heavy immortals blind counters mass roach (minus the fact that he's on 3 bases and you're on 2, but I'm not done yet). I'm not saying you should go run out onto the map if you just make a few immortals, I'm saying some immortals with proper supporting defense (a cannon, a few sentries, a few stalkers) at your natural choke makes mass roach attacks from the front a complete waste. He'll probably do it anyway to free up supply, but it will cut into his economy more than it cuts into yours.
IF he goes for a lot more zerglings (and maybe a few banes if he wants to break your front), DO NOT SWITCH TO COLLOSUS. You need that gas for what comes next, and it's too easy for the zerg to spirestomp you at this point if you go collosus.. Go for Zealots (you should be upgrading damage so zealots 2-shot lings at this point) to counter the zerglings... and get zealot Speed. Only make enough zealots to counter however many lings he made, no more.
At this point you're still on 2-base and he's still on 3. But the good news is that you're not dying. Indeed, you probably even have both army and tech advantage! From here you have a few options, making some sentries (with your immortal+zealots you should have high excess of gas) and killing the third isn't a bad option(notice how we didn't start off with the sentries, not theoretically ideal but yes a necessity). You could also be using that gas for upgrades.
Anyways, from here it depends on what the zerg does. If he's smart he didn't go too all-in with the initial attacks, and he's been filling out his 3-base economy, preparing to receive an attack from you while simultaneously struggling to match your tech. He really wants brood-lord infestor, but you would attack him with 2-base before he's able to set that up (BL+Infestor takes a lot of time and 4+ bases). Since you're not far from collosus tech, he's probably not gonna go hydras; and even though I'm telling you not to get collosus yet, even if he did go hydras you'd be fine.
You have a lot of immortal+zealot. He's gonna go for mutas if he's smart, every time. You've had an observer forever, so you should see the spire coming a mile away. You already have a Twilight Council. Start researching Blink, and put down a Templar Archives. You are tech switching to Blink Stalkers + Archons to counter his muta tech. Which also happens to do quite well vs infestor+brood (and/or any hydra timing he might have tried to do).
Sometime not long before you run out of minerals in your main you will want to take your third. This is no longer as hard as it sounds, because using this strategy you should have gained an army advantage against a 3-base zerg, even if on 1-base.
BTW if he does happen to be aiming for infestor+brood, I recommend busting out a mothership after getting 3-bases. You already have archons.
In the end you have an army/tech advantage and he has an economic advantage like it's kinda supposed to be, and this should put you on roughly equal footing (imo slightly more) in the late game (though for a theoretical blind counter, perhaps it should do more, but this isn't the place to discuss that ^^).
early game: FE; Immortals > roaches
early/mid game: (Speed)zealots > zerglings; Gas excess (upgrades, sentries, next phase)
mid game: (Blink)stalker + archon > lair tech; Assert army/tech advantage to secure (or maybe deny if ahead enough) third.
late game: We're passed the retarded roach timing, tada! You know how to PvZ.
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I have too little experience with Protoss (quite a lot really, just a lot less than many of you) and this makes too much sense and this is too big a problem for me to believe I'm both (a) not missing something and (b) the first person to come up with this.
If I'm missing something, please lmk. Especially if you can point to someone who has already tried/talked about it.
...But I've been watching this problem develop since it's beginning (and even before what many would call it's beginning), and though I definitely haven't seen most PvZ games, I'm astonished at how few people I have seen trying to make a heavily significant amount of Immortals at the early/mid game to counteract the mass Roach in the early/mid game. At risk of giving away that I don't watch much anymore, I actually have never seen anyone try to do it in earnest, which I find quite remarkable.
It's not as simple as immortal > roach... but c'mon... how is that not where it starts?
FRB is not a fix. It's not relevant and it's a whole different thing altogether. It's not used on ladder, it's not used in tournaments. I don't see why you would bring this concept up. I don't like it, but I'll not argue about it anymore over here.
There are hiccups with the things you mentioned: the first is that the build is a blind counter; what happens if the player is doing something else? Turtling on two bases isn't optimal either; the zerg can either grab 1 more base and rush tech, or just throw his army at your door cost-ineffectively, but overpowering you on the back of a much stronger economy.
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What is FRB?
nevermind, I'd read the thread (fewer resources per base). just didn't know the acronym.
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On April 26 2012 05:17 kcdc wrote:
A lot of people have pointed out that immortals are bad against mutas, and that's true, but very few people (I think just Ranged) have mentioned that immortals aren't actually that good against the roach-ling pressure either. That immortals are a pretty bad addition in this situation isn't intuitive, but it's true nonetheless.
The simple explanation is that immortals tend to auto-target onto the zerglings and they have AWFUL damage against lings.
The more complicated explanation has to do with immobility, positioning and the interaction between forcefields and early-game composition. Because you can't combine forcefields with zealots against Zerg, your immortal composition winds up being stalker-sentry-immortal which, collectively, has approximately 0 DPS vs zerglings. So you take forever to the lings, your immortals wasting their shots on over-killing cheap light units, and by the time you burn through the lings, the roaches either overwhelm you or back off for 20 seconds until the next giant round of lings shows up. Soon, you have blink, but your forcefields are wearing down, and your immortals and sentries become sitting ducks.
If you play it out a lot, you find that immortals aren't a particularly good addition against the roach-ling attack unless you have cannons or zealots to kill zerglings or an exceptional position where you can forcefield all day without running out or screwing up. It just doesn't play out how you'd draw it up in your mind when you think immortal > roach.
I kinda disagree with this. I know you're in a higher league than me, maybe it's because of the caliber of opponents I'm facing that my style works. But I feel like the less stalkers you have, the better. Sentry (10+), Zealot, Immortal(3) is quite good against early roach / ling. You can use FFs to force lings to fight zealots and split roach armies.You need to scout obviously, obs or hallu should let you do this. That way you won't get surrounded and waste FFs and you can scout for tech switches. This way you're on top of any Muta switches and can get stalkers only when you need them. If he gets a lot of lings, you can fall back and use cannons and FFs to defend while using your scouting info to get the right unit comp. It's probably map dependent to a degree, but I think this is a strong style. Is that wrong?
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United States8476 Posts
On April 26 2012 05:26 Gessen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 05:17 kcdc wrote:
A lot of people have pointed out that immortals are bad against mutas, and that's true, but very few people (I think just Ranged) have mentioned that immortals aren't actually that good against the roach-ling pressure either. That immortals are a pretty bad addition in this situation isn't intuitive, but it's true nonetheless.
The simple explanation is that immortals tend to auto-target onto the zerglings and they have AWFUL damage against lings.
The more complicated explanation has to do with immobility, positioning and the interaction between forcefields and early-game composition. Because you can't combine forcefields with zealots against Zerg, your immortal composition winds up being stalker-sentry-immortal which, collectively, has approximately 0 DPS vs zerglings. So you take forever to the lings, your immortals wasting their shots on over-killing cheap light units, and by the time you burn through the lings, the roaches either overwhelm you or back off for 20 seconds until the next giant round of lings shows up. Soon, you have blink, but your forcefields are wearing down, and your immortals and sentries become sitting ducks.
If you play it out a lot, you find that immortals aren't a particularly good addition against the roach-ling attack unless you have cannons or zealots to kill zerglings or an exceptional position where you can forcefield all day without running out or screwing up. It just doesn't play out how you'd draw it up in your mind when you think immortal > roach. I kinda disagree with this. I know you're in a higher league than me, maybe it's because of the caliber of opponents I'm facing. But I feel like the less stalkers you have, the better. Sentry (10+), Zealot, Immortal(3) is quite good against early roach / ling. You can use FFs to force lings to fight zealots and split roach armies.You need to scout obviously, obs or hallu should let you do this. That way you won't get surrounded and waste FFs and you can scout for tech switches. This way you're on top of any Muta switches and can get stalkers only when you need them. If he gets a lot of lings, you can fall back and use cannons and FFs to defend while using your scouting info to get the right unit comp. It's probably map dependent to a degree, but I think this is a strong style. Is that wrong?
I don't think he's saying immortals are bad, just that they might not be as good as everyone thinks they are. Also, zealot do really poorly versus roach ling. You prefer simcity, cannons, and forcefields to deal with lings.
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EPT
