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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
Oh and another question about 3rd nexus builds.
I watched, even took note of lots of numbers, different 7:30-9 min 3rd builds. Some use hallucination and almost pure blink (Ranged), others just stay with obs and get faster immortal, with more zealot/sentry (Titan / Axslav).
What do you think guys is better? I just don't see clearly the better choice, both can handle the roach push with good micro, but my main doubt is about the obs/hallu convenience.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 25 2012 09:00 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 08:17 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 07:39 Nostrada wrote:
I've experimented with 8min 3rd base this week on ladder vs few GM zergs. I've been able to hold the roach ling pressure, but in my last game FXOLoWeLy simple got really fast broodlords and crushed me.
He had 8 broodlords + swarm of lings @ 15min mark. +80 drones too. He had traded army well tho before that so maybe I could've slowed him down a bit if I wouldn't have lost sentries etc.
Is there an answer for greedy broodlord tech? If your opponent scouts your fast 3rd, he can freely go only ling infestor into 15 minute broods. In my opinion, this forces you to play a macro game as you cannot reliably push him. You need colossi to fight ling/infestor/spine cost efficiently and by the time you push out with 2-3 colossi at his door, he already has broods morphing. He can even stop such a push with ling/infestor/spine/corruptor in some cases. For an example of this, check MC vs DRG on metropolis in their 2nd set from MLG spring arena. One tip I could give you is to scout well and confirm he's going fast have as fast as possible. Then commit to colossi asap with at least 2 robos. One mistake people do when trying fast 3rd is staying on stalkers for too long. They're not used to how fast you can macro and they end up maxed with 2 colossi and the rest stalker/sentry, which isn't optimal at all. After you get colossi, commit to either going for the very long term macro game with fast 4th/fast mothership or a push on a side expansion that isn't well defended with spines; this is only possible on some maps. See Genius vs Ret on Daybreak from Dreamhack for an example of this. Your logic here is: (1) Z is going fast infestor-broodlord (2) I took fast third, so I can't punish fast infestor-broodlord => Therefore, get double robo colossus to deal with fast infestor-broodlord. That conclusion seems a little fishy to me. Why wouldn't you pick a tech that's better against infestor-broodlord like archon-carrier-mothership? What do colossi accomplish against infestor-broodlord that archons (and a few templar) don't accomplish at least as well?
I guess that's ok but imo colossi are the better choice. I'm only a fan of templar/archon into mothership versus muta into broodlord, not infestor into broodlord. Colossi are initially better versus both infestor/ling and infestor/ling/broodlord. Colossi allow for some semblance of pressure, as it's impossible to push with gateway/templar into spines and infestors. They're also the more stable option versus infestor/ling/broodlord, as you can get easily caught in the transition to carriers that composition is way more unforgiving for both sides. Most importantly though, I've never seen a competent game where someone successfully went templar/archon into mothership versus fast broodlords.
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On April 25 2012 09:21 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 09:00 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 08:17 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 07:39 Nostrada wrote:
I've experimented with 8min 3rd base this week on ladder vs few GM zergs. I've been able to hold the roach ling pressure, but in my last game FXOLoWeLy simple got really fast broodlords and crushed me.
He had 8 broodlords + swarm of lings @ 15min mark. +80 drones too. He had traded army well tho before that so maybe I could've slowed him down a bit if I wouldn't have lost sentries etc.
Is there an answer for greedy broodlord tech? If your opponent scouts your fast 3rd, he can freely go only ling infestor into 15 minute broods. In my opinion, this forces you to play a macro game as you cannot reliably push him. You need colossi to fight ling/infestor/spine cost efficiently and by the time you push out with 2-3 colossi at his door, he already has broods morphing. He can even stop such a push with ling/infestor/spine/corruptor in some cases. For an example of this, check MC vs DRG on metropolis in their 2nd set from MLG spring arena. One tip I could give you is to scout well and confirm he's going fast have as fast as possible. Then commit to colossi asap with at least 2 robos. One mistake people do when trying fast 3rd is staying on stalkers for too long. They're not used to how fast you can macro and they end up maxed with 2 colossi and the rest stalker/sentry, which isn't optimal at all. After you get colossi, commit to either going for the very long term macro game with fast 4th/fast mothership or a push on a side expansion that isn't well defended with spines; this is only possible on some maps. See Genius vs Ret on Daybreak from Dreamhack for an example of this. Your logic here is: (1) Z is going fast infestor-broodlord (2) I took fast third, so I can't punish fast infestor-broodlord => Therefore, get double robo colossus to deal with fast infestor-broodlord. That conclusion seems a little fishy to me. Why wouldn't you pick a tech that's better against infestor-broodlord like archon-carrier-mothership? What do colossi accomplish against infestor-broodlord that archons (and a few templar) don't accomplish at least as well? I guess that's ok but imo colossi are the better choice. I'm only a fan of templar/archon into mothership versus muta into broodlord, not infestor into broodlord. Colossi are initially better versus both infestor/ling and infestor/ling/broodlord. Colossi allow for some semblance of pressure, as it's impossible to push with gateway/templar into spines and infestors. They're also the more stable option versus infestor/ling/broodlord, as you can get easily caught in the transition to carriers that composition is way more unforgiving for both sides. Most importantly though, I've never seen a competent game where someone successfully went templar/archon into mothership versus fast broodlords.
IMO, the reason you don't see people get templar/archon tech before colossi is that it's vulnerable to roaches. But if you know Z is skipping the roach phase to go straight to late game, it's going to be a good choice. Colossi vs infestor-BL is about running around Z's immobile army, counter-attacking, and delaying. And it can work okay, but you get to the real power composition where you can take Z head on faster if you skip the colossi.
Not saying there's a right or wrong answer. They're different styles.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 25 2012 11:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 09:21 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 09:00 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 08:17 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 07:39 Nostrada wrote:
I've experimented with 8min 3rd base this week on ladder vs few GM zergs. I've been able to hold the roach ling pressure, but in my last game FXOLoWeLy simple got really fast broodlords and crushed me.
He had 8 broodlords + swarm of lings @ 15min mark. +80 drones too. He had traded army well tho before that so maybe I could've slowed him down a bit if I wouldn't have lost sentries etc.
Is there an answer for greedy broodlord tech? If your opponent scouts your fast 3rd, he can freely go only ling infestor into 15 minute broods. In my opinion, this forces you to play a macro game as you cannot reliably push him. You need colossi to fight ling/infestor/spine cost efficiently and by the time you push out with 2-3 colossi at his door, he already has broods morphing. He can even stop such a push with ling/infestor/spine/corruptor in some cases. For an example of this, check MC vs DRG on metropolis in their 2nd set from MLG spring arena. One tip I could give you is to scout well and confirm he's going fast have as fast as possible. Then commit to colossi asap with at least 2 robos. One mistake people do when trying fast 3rd is staying on stalkers for too long. They're not used to how fast you can macro and they end up maxed with 2 colossi and the rest stalker/sentry, which isn't optimal at all. After you get colossi, commit to either going for the very long term macro game with fast 4th/fast mothership or a push on a side expansion that isn't well defended with spines; this is only possible on some maps. See Genius vs Ret on Daybreak from Dreamhack for an example of this. Your logic here is: (1) Z is going fast infestor-broodlord (2) I took fast third, so I can't punish fast infestor-broodlord => Therefore, get double robo colossus to deal with fast infestor-broodlord. That conclusion seems a little fishy to me. Why wouldn't you pick a tech that's better against infestor-broodlord like archon-carrier-mothership? What do colossi accomplish against infestor-broodlord that archons (and a few templar) don't accomplish at least as well? I guess that's ok but imo colossi are the better choice. I'm only a fan of templar/archon into mothership versus muta into broodlord, not infestor into broodlord. Colossi are initially better versus both infestor/ling and infestor/ling/broodlord. Colossi allow for some semblance of pressure, as it's impossible to push with gateway/templar into spines and infestors. They're also the more stable option versus infestor/ling/broodlord, as you can get easily caught in the transition to carriers that composition is way more unforgiving for both sides. Most importantly though, I've never seen a competent game where someone successfully went templar/archon into mothership versus fast broodlords. IMO, the reason you don't see people get templar/archon tech before colossi is that it's vulnerable to roaches. But if you know Z is skipping the roach phase to go straight to late game, it's going to be a good choice. Colossi vs infestor-BL is about running around Z's immobile army, counter-attacking, and delaying. And it can work okay, but you get to the real power composition where you can take Z head on faster if you skip the colossi. Not saying there's a right or wrong answer. They're different styles.
I'm not ruling templar out but I can't really support it when in both my own experience and in televised games, they haven't proven themselves. One thing is that I can name about 10 games off the top of my head of toss macro style vs fast broods and every time protoss went for colossi. All 5 games of sheth's red bull challenge vs naniwa, jyp, parting, hasuobs, sase, a few of ret's games versus the same opponents. Lucky vs Brown on daybreak, yugioh vs vampire on daybreak, ret vs genius on daybreak from dreamhack.
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What to do if Z doesn't do roach aggression if you have your third really depends on the map I think. Specifically how big the map is and if it's easy for them to set up a central spine wall or not. For example on a map like shakuras they can delay with mass spines too easily and a three base colossus push is likely to fail, just going 1 robo colossi and quick mothership is the way to go then. On maps like cloud kingdom i'd always go for the 3 base push though, but I don't think you need double robo for it really. Just 2 colossi off 1 robo will do I think as long as you start attacking around 160-170 pop. If they rush broods too quickly they rarely have the infestor count or ling upgrades to deal with blink stalkers so you should be fine then.
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On April 25 2012 20:47 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 11:14 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 09:21 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 09:00 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 08:17 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 07:39 Nostrada wrote:
I've experimented with 8min 3rd base this week on ladder vs few GM zergs. I've been able to hold the roach ling pressure, but in my last game FXOLoWeLy simple got really fast broodlords and crushed me.
He had 8 broodlords + swarm of lings @ 15min mark. +80 drones too. He had traded army well tho before that so maybe I could've slowed him down a bit if I wouldn't have lost sentries etc.
Is there an answer for greedy broodlord tech? If your opponent scouts your fast 3rd, he can freely go only ling infestor into 15 minute broods. In my opinion, this forces you to play a macro game as you cannot reliably push him. You need colossi to fight ling/infestor/spine cost efficiently and by the time you push out with 2-3 colossi at his door, he already has broods morphing. He can even stop such a push with ling/infestor/spine/corruptor in some cases. For an example of this, check MC vs DRG on metropolis in their 2nd set from MLG spring arena. One tip I could give you is to scout well and confirm he's going fast have as fast as possible. Then commit to colossi asap with at least 2 robos. One mistake people do when trying fast 3rd is staying on stalkers for too long. They're not used to how fast you can macro and they end up maxed with 2 colossi and the rest stalker/sentry, which isn't optimal at all. After you get colossi, commit to either going for the very long term macro game with fast 4th/fast mothership or a push on a side expansion that isn't well defended with spines; this is only possible on some maps. See Genius vs Ret on Daybreak from Dreamhack for an example of this. Your logic here is: (1) Z is going fast infestor-broodlord (2) I took fast third, so I can't punish fast infestor-broodlord => Therefore, get double robo colossus to deal with fast infestor-broodlord. That conclusion seems a little fishy to me. Why wouldn't you pick a tech that's better against infestor-broodlord like archon-carrier-mothership? What do colossi accomplish against infestor-broodlord that archons (and a few templar) don't accomplish at least as well? I guess that's ok but imo colossi are the better choice. I'm only a fan of templar/archon into mothership versus muta into broodlord, not infestor into broodlord. Colossi are initially better versus both infestor/ling and infestor/ling/broodlord. Colossi allow for some semblance of pressure, as it's impossible to push with gateway/templar into spines and infestors. They're also the more stable option versus infestor/ling/broodlord, as you can get easily caught in the transition to carriers that composition is way more unforgiving for both sides. Most importantly though, I've never seen a competent game where someone successfully went templar/archon into mothership versus fast broodlords. IMO, the reason you don't see people get templar/archon tech before colossi is that it's vulnerable to roaches. But if you know Z is skipping the roach phase to go straight to late game, it's going to be a good choice. Colossi vs infestor-BL is about running around Z's immobile army, counter-attacking, and delaying. And it can work okay, but you get to the real power composition where you can take Z head on faster if you skip the colossi. Not saying there's a right or wrong answer. They're different styles. I'm not ruling templar out but I can't really support it when in both my own experience and in televised games, they haven't proven themselves. One thing is that I can name about 10 games off the top of my head of toss macro style vs fast broods and every time protoss went for colossi. All 5 games of sheth's red bull challenge vs naniwa, jyp, parting, hasuobs, sase, a few of ret's games versus the same opponents. Lucky vs Brown on daybreak, yugioh vs vampire on daybreak, ret vs genius on daybreak from dreamhack.
Just want to note that what's popular right now may not prove to be anywhere close to optimal. There was a time that 2 gate robo -> expand was considered the best opening against Terran and 3 gate sentry -> expand was considered the best
opening against Zerg.
And before you say, "Sure, but the game was so new!" consider how long those builds remained popular and how new this fast-third-nexus vs fast-third-hatch corner of the metagame is. It's likely that nobody is doing anything that's anywhere close to optimal and we simply don't know any better yet.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 25 2012 23:08 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 20:47 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 11:14 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 09:21 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 09:00 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 08:17 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 07:39 Nostrada wrote:
I've experimented with 8min 3rd base this week on ladder vs few GM zergs. I've been able to hold the roach ling pressure, but in my last game FXOLoWeLy simple got really fast broodlords and crushed me.
He had 8 broodlords + swarm of lings @ 15min mark. +80 drones too. He had traded army well tho before that so maybe I could've slowed him down a bit if I wouldn't have lost sentries etc.
Is there an answer for greedy broodlord tech? If your opponent scouts your fast 3rd, he can freely go only ling infestor into 15 minute broods. In my opinion, this forces you to play a macro game as you cannot reliably push him. You need colossi to fight ling/infestor/spine cost efficiently and by the time you push out with 2-3 colossi at his door, he already has broods morphing. He can even stop such a push with ling/infestor/spine/corruptor in some cases. For an example of this, check MC vs DRG on metropolis in their 2nd set from MLG spring arena. One tip I could give you is to scout well and confirm he's going fast have as fast as possible. Then commit to colossi asap with at least 2 robos. One mistake people do when trying fast 3rd is staying on stalkers for too long. They're not used to how fast you can macro and they end up maxed with 2 colossi and the rest stalker/sentry, which isn't optimal at all. After you get colossi, commit to either going for the very long term macro game with fast 4th/fast mothership or a push on a side expansion that isn't well defended with spines; this is only possible on some maps. See Genius vs Ret on Daybreak from Dreamhack for an example of this. Your logic here is: (1) Z is going fast infestor-broodlord (2) I took fast third, so I can't punish fast infestor-broodlord => Therefore, get double robo colossus to deal with fast infestor-broodlord. That conclusion seems a little fishy to me. Why wouldn't you pick a tech that's better against infestor-broodlord like archon-carrier-mothership? What do colossi accomplish against infestor-broodlord that archons (and a few templar) don't accomplish at least as well? I guess that's ok but imo colossi are the better choice. I'm only a fan of templar/archon into mothership versus muta into broodlord, not infestor into broodlord. Colossi are initially better versus both infestor/ling and infestor/ling/broodlord. Colossi allow for some semblance of pressure, as it's impossible to push with gateway/templar into spines and infestors. They're also the more stable option versus infestor/ling/broodlord, as you can get easily caught in the transition to carriers that composition is way more unforgiving for both sides. Most importantly though, I've never seen a competent game where someone successfully went templar/archon into mothership versus fast broodlords. IMO, the reason you don't see people get templar/archon tech before colossi is that it's vulnerable to roaches. But if you know Z is skipping the roach phase to go straight to late game, it's going to be a good choice. Colossi vs infestor-BL is about running around Z's immobile army, counter-attacking, and delaying. And it can work okay, but you get to the real power composition where you can take Z head on faster if you skip the colossi. Not saying there's a right or wrong answer. They're different styles. I'm not ruling templar out but I can't really support it when in both my own experience and in televised games, they haven't proven themselves. One thing is that I can name about 10 games off the top of my head of toss macro style vs fast broods and every time protoss went for colossi. All 5 games of sheth's red bull challenge vs naniwa, jyp, parting, hasuobs, sase, a few of ret's games versus the same opponents. Lucky vs Brown on daybreak, yugioh vs vampire on daybreak, ret vs genius on daybreak from dreamhack. Just want to note that what's popular right now may not prove to be anywhere close to optimal. There was a time that 2 gate robo -> expand was considered the best opening against Terran and 3 gate sentry -> expand was considered the best opening against Zerg. And before you say, "Sure, but the game was so new!" consider how long those builds remained popular and how new this fast-third-nexus vs fast-third-hatch corner of the metagame is. It's likely that nobody is doing anything that's anywhere close to optimal and we simply don't know any better yet.
Sure, but I can't in good faith suggest it.
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On April 25 2012 23:10 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:08 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 20:47 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 11:14 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 09:21 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 09:00 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 08:17 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 07:39 Nostrada wrote:
I've experimented with 8min 3rd base this week on ladder vs few GM zergs. I've been able to hold the roach ling pressure, but in my last game FXOLoWeLy simple got really fast broodlords and crushed me.
He had 8 broodlords + swarm of lings @ 15min mark. +80 drones too. He had traded army well tho before that so maybe I could've slowed him down a bit if I wouldn't have lost sentries etc.
Is there an answer for greedy broodlord tech? If your opponent scouts your fast 3rd, he can freely go only ling infestor into 15 minute broods. In my opinion, this forces you to play a macro game as you cannot reliably push him. You need colossi to fight ling/infestor/spine cost efficiently and by the time you push out with 2-3 colossi at his door, he already has broods morphing. He can even stop such a push with ling/infestor/spine/corruptor in some cases. For an example of this, check MC vs DRG on metropolis in their 2nd set from MLG spring arena. One tip I could give you is to scout well and confirm he's going fast have as fast as possible. Then commit to colossi asap with at least 2 robos. One mistake people do when trying fast 3rd is staying on stalkers for too long. They're not used to how fast you can macro and they end up maxed with 2 colossi and the rest stalker/sentry, which isn't optimal at all. After you get colossi, commit to either going for the very long term macro game with fast 4th/fast mothership or a push on a side expansion that isn't well defended with spines; this is only possible on some maps. See Genius vs Ret on Daybreak from Dreamhack for an example of this. Your logic here is: (1) Z is going fast infestor-broodlord (2) I took fast third, so I can't punish fast infestor-broodlord => Therefore, get double robo colossus to deal with fast infestor-broodlord. That conclusion seems a little fishy to me. Why wouldn't you pick a tech that's better against infestor-broodlord like archon-carrier-mothership? What do colossi accomplish against infestor-broodlord that archons (and a few templar) don't accomplish at least as well? I guess that's ok but imo colossi are the better choice. I'm only a fan of templar/archon into mothership versus muta into broodlord, not infestor into broodlord. Colossi are initially better versus both infestor/ling and infestor/ling/broodlord. Colossi allow for some semblance of pressure, as it's impossible to push with gateway/templar into spines and infestors. They're also the more stable option versus infestor/ling/broodlord, as you can get easily caught in the transition to carriers that composition is way more unforgiving for both sides. Most importantly though, I've never seen a competent game where someone successfully went templar/archon into mothership versus fast broodlords. IMO, the reason you don't see people get templar/archon tech before colossi is that it's vulnerable to roaches. But if you know Z is skipping the roach phase to go straight to late game, it's going to be a good choice. Colossi vs infestor-BL is about running around Z's immobile army, counter-attacking, and delaying. And it can work okay, but you get to the real power composition where you can take Z head on faster if you skip the colossi. Not saying there's a right or wrong answer. They're different styles. I'm not ruling templar out but I can't really support it when in both my own experience and in televised games, they haven't proven themselves. One thing is that I can name about 10 games off the top of my head of toss macro style vs fast broods and every time protoss went for colossi. All 5 games of sheth's red bull challenge vs naniwa, jyp, parting, hasuobs, sase, a few of ret's games versus the same opponents. Lucky vs Brown on daybreak, yugioh vs vampire on daybreak, ret vs genius on daybreak from dreamhack. Just want to note that what's popular right now may not prove to be anywhere close to optimal. There was a time that 2 gate robo -> expand was considered the best opening against Terran and 3 gate sentry -> expand was considered the best opening against Zerg. And before you say, "Sure, but the game was so new!" consider how long those builds remained popular and how new this fast-third-nexus vs fast-third-hatch corner of the metagame is. It's likely that nobody is doing anything that's anywhere close to optimal and we simply don't know any better yet. Sure, but I can't in good faith suggest it.
Alright, and I wouldn't suggest going double robo colossi in a situation where you know that the meat of Zerg's army will be in the air (untargetable by colossi) and the support component can be instantly killed/neutralized by feedback.
At the point where you're making this decision, you already have a good roach-killing force, so you need to adjust your army to beat infestors, broodlords and broodlings. Templar/archon tech is clearly better than colossus tech against infestors and broodlords, and archons (with some zealot support) are just as good vs broodlings as colossi. It seems like a no-brainer to skip colossi unless there's a bridge timing on your way to your lategame comp that you just can't cross without colossi.
There might be such a bridge timing, but I'd explore the more efficient path before I scaled back and resigned myself to playing more conservatively.
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hey ignorant kcdc, I just wanted to mention once again how http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE
hardcounters Stephano. But guess you will still not believe me , even with my 90% win ratio against current metagame zergs. GL wasting ur time with other builds, since u always ignore my tips.
Check my EU match history if you don't believe me ... Yuffie 573
cheers
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 25 2012 23:54 Yuffie wrote:hey ignorant kcdc, I just wanted to mention once again how http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFEhardcounters Stephano. But guess you will still not believe me , even with my 90% win ratio against current metagame zergs. GL wasting ur time with other builds, since u always ignore my tips. Check my EU match history if you don't believe me ... Yuffie 573 cheers
Hi Yuffie!
So after doing a gate first opening, what are your transitions? Is it just faster pressure or do you early expo (like the 10 min expo they're saying here) or build robo/SG? Another question: does this build just give you wins because the enemies automatically go for a fast third as if they are going against FFE's/is it able to counter stephano roaches because they scout the gate and go for speedling openers instead or something?
Thanksthanks :D Hate letting zergs get away with fast thirds and stuff so I go gate openers too
(albeit, at a much lower level  )
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United States8476 Posts
On April 25 2012 23:47 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:10 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 23:08 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 20:47 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 11:14 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 09:21 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 09:00 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 08:17 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 07:39 Nostrada wrote:
I've experimented with 8min 3rd base this week on ladder vs few GM zergs. I've been able to hold the roach ling pressure, but in my last game FXOLoWeLy simple got really fast broodlords and crushed me.
He had 8 broodlords + swarm of lings @ 15min mark. +80 drones too. He had traded army well tho before that so maybe I could've slowed him down a bit if I wouldn't have lost sentries etc.
Is there an answer for greedy broodlord tech? If your opponent scouts your fast 3rd, he can freely go only ling infestor into 15 minute broods. In my opinion, this forces you to play a macro game as you cannot reliably push him. You need colossi to fight ling/infestor/spine cost efficiently and by the time you push out with 2-3 colossi at his door, he already has broods morphing. He can even stop such a push with ling/infestor/spine/corruptor in some cases. For an example of this, check MC vs DRG on metropolis in their 2nd set from MLG spring arena. One tip I could give you is to scout well and confirm he's going fast have as fast as possible. Then commit to colossi asap with at least 2 robos. One mistake people do when trying fast 3rd is staying on stalkers for too long. They're not used to how fast you can macro and they end up maxed with 2 colossi and the rest stalker/sentry, which isn't optimal at all. After you get colossi, commit to either going for the very long term macro game with fast 4th/fast mothership or a push on a side expansion that isn't well defended with spines; this is only possible on some maps. See Genius vs Ret on Daybreak from Dreamhack for an example of this. Your logic here is: (1) Z is going fast infestor-broodlord (2) I took fast third, so I can't punish fast infestor-broodlord => Therefore, get double robo colossus to deal with fast infestor-broodlord. That conclusion seems a little fishy to me. Why wouldn't you pick a tech that's better against infestor-broodlord like archon-carrier-mothership? What do colossi accomplish against infestor-broodlord that archons (and a few templar) don't accomplish at least as well? I guess that's ok but imo colossi are the better choice. I'm only a fan of templar/archon into mothership versus muta into broodlord, not infestor into broodlord. Colossi are initially better versus both infestor/ling and infestor/ling/broodlord. Colossi allow for some semblance of pressure, as it's impossible to push with gateway/templar into spines and infestors. They're also the more stable option versus infestor/ling/broodlord, as you can get easily caught in the transition to carriers that composition is way more unforgiving for both sides. Most importantly though, I've never seen a competent game where someone successfully went templar/archon into mothership versus fast broodlords. IMO, the reason you don't see people get templar/archon tech before colossi is that it's vulnerable to roaches. But if you know Z is skipping the roach phase to go straight to late game, it's going to be a good choice. Colossi vs infestor-BL is about running around Z's immobile army, counter-attacking, and delaying. And it can work okay, but you get to the real power composition where you can take Z head on faster if you skip the colossi. Not saying there's a right or wrong answer. They're different styles. I'm not ruling templar out but I can't really support it when in both my own experience and in televised games, they haven't proven themselves. One thing is that I can name about 10 games off the top of my head of toss macro style vs fast broods and every time protoss went for colossi. All 5 games of sheth's red bull challenge vs naniwa, jyp, parting, hasuobs, sase, a few of ret's games versus the same opponents. Lucky vs Brown on daybreak, yugioh vs vampire on daybreak, ret vs genius on daybreak from dreamhack. Just want to note that what's popular right now may not prove to be anywhere close to optimal. There was a time that 2 gate robo -> expand was considered the best opening against Terran and 3 gate sentry -> expand was considered the best opening against Zerg. And before you say, "Sure, but the game was so new!" consider how long those builds remained popular and how new this fast-third-nexus vs fast-third-hatch corner of the metagame is. It's likely that nobody is doing anything that's anywhere close to optimal and we simply don't know any better yet. Sure, but I can't in good faith suggest it. Alright, and I wouldn't suggest going double robo colossi in a situation where you know that the meat of Zerg's army will be in the air (untargetable by colossi) and the support component can be instantly killed/neutralized by feedback. At the point where you're making this decision, you already have a good roach-killing force, so you need to adjust your army to beat infestors, broodlords and broodlings. Templar/archon tech is clearly better than colossus tech against infestors and broodlords, and archons (with some zealot support) are just as good vs broodlings as colossi. It seems like a no-brainer to skip colossi unless there's a bridge timing on your way to your lategame comp that you just can't cross without colossi. There might be such a bridge timing, but I'd explore the more efficient path before I scaled back and resigned myself to playing more conservatively.
Imo colossi are a lot better than archons at dealing with broodlings. I find skipping colossi and going straight for carriers leaves you weak to broodlord attacks until you get 4-6 carriers. Also, keep in mind that I'm one of the biggest supporters of carriers. Btw wanna play my z? My finger's about healed up.
On April 25 2012 23:54 Yuffie wrote:hey ignorant kcdc, I just wanted to mention once again how http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFEhardcounters Stephano. But guess you will still not believe me , even with my 90% win ratio against current metagame zergs. GL wasting ur time with other builds, since u always ignore my tips. Check my EU match history if you don't believe me ... Yuffie 573 cheers
Don't be a fucking dick.
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On April 25 2012 23:54 Yuffie wrote:hey ignorant kcdc, I just wanted to mention once again how http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFEhardcounters Stephano. But guess you will still not believe me , even with my 90% win ratio against current metagame zergs. GL wasting ur time with other builds, since u always ignore my tips. Check my EU match history if you don't believe me ... Yuffie 573 cheers
Holy crap that page is biased. I'm going to see with the staff but you better provide replays with better players than you.
Also, may I suggest to look into Adel FE into 5G. It's a very specific style but it seems to be quite efficient. Better players might wanna look into that.
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Ive seen this build, which seems like it gives you both the pressure and the economy PvZ Adonminus Macro-Agressive Style
the writer says it holds vs early pools, but since i don't execute at a master level i can't attest to that, it also seems vulnerable to baneling allins, but again, the writer believes that they can be held. The idea behind it, of constant pressure allowing you to keep up economically, seems sound though, plus it seems relatively easy to transition anything you need after the blink stalker pressure.
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On April 26 2012 00:09 NrGmonk wrote:
Imo colossi are a lot better than archons at dealing with broodlings. I find skipping colossi and going straight for carriers leaves you weak to broodlord attacks until you get 4-6 carriers. Also, keep in mind that I'm one of the biggest supporters of carriers. Btw wanna play my z? My finger's about healed up.
Would love to play, but I'm on a self-imposed ban from SC2, at least until the expansion comes out. I'm still checking in on the community, but I have a pretty demanding job and I'm trying to start up a business at the same time, and SC2 was taking too much time. I could just play a couple hours a week, but it's not that fun to play when you know you suck and don't intend to do anything about it.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 26 2012 00:39 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 00:09 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 23:47 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 23:10 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 23:08 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 20:47 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 11:14 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 09:21 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 09:00 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 08:17 NrGmonk wrote:
[quote]
If your opponent scouts your fast 3rd, he can freely go only ling infestor into 15 minute broods. In my opinion, this forces you to play a macro game as you cannot reliably push him. You need colossi to fight ling/infestor/spine cost efficiently and by the time you push out with 2-3 colossi at his door, he already has broods morphing. He can even stop such a push with ling/infestor/spine/corruptor in some cases. For an example of this, check MC vs DRG on metropolis in their 2nd set from MLG spring arena.
One tip I could give you is to scout well and confirm he's going fast have as fast as possible. Then commit to colossi asap with at least 2 robos. One mistake people do when trying fast 3rd is staying on stalkers for too long. They're not used to how fast you can macro and they end up maxed with 2 colossi and the rest stalker/sentry, which isn't optimal at all.
After you get colossi, commit to either going for the very long term macro game with fast 4th/fast mothership or a push on a side expansion that isn't well defended with spines; this is only possible on some maps. See Genius vs Ret on Daybreak from Dreamhack for an example of this. Your logic here is: (1) Z is going fast infestor-broodlord (2) I took fast third, so I can't punish fast infestor-broodlord => Therefore, get double robo colossus to deal with fast infestor-broodlord. That conclusion seems a little fishy to me. Why wouldn't you pick a tech that's better against infestor-broodlord like archon-carrier-mothership? What do colossi accomplish against infestor-broodlord that archons (and a few templar) don't accomplish at least as well? I guess that's ok but imo colossi are the better choice. I'm only a fan of templar/archon into mothership versus muta into broodlord, not infestor into broodlord. Colossi are initially better versus both infestor/ling and infestor/ling/broodlord. Colossi allow for some semblance of pressure, as it's impossible to push with gateway/templar into spines and infestors. They're also the more stable option versus infestor/ling/broodlord, as you can get easily caught in the transition to carriers that composition is way more unforgiving for both sides. Most importantly though, I've never seen a competent game where someone successfully went templar/archon into mothership versus fast broodlords. IMO, the reason you don't see people get templar/archon tech before colossi is that it's vulnerable to roaches. But if you know Z is skipping the roach phase to go straight to late game, it's going to be a good choice. Colossi vs infestor-BL is about running around Z's immobile army, counter-attacking, and delaying. And it can work okay, but you get to the real power composition where you can take Z head on faster if you skip the colossi. Not saying there's a right or wrong answer. They're different styles. I'm not ruling templar out but I can't really support it when in both my own experience and in televised games, they haven't proven themselves. One thing is that I can name about 10 games off the top of my head of toss macro style vs fast broods and every time protoss went for colossi. All 5 games of sheth's red bull challenge vs naniwa, jyp, parting, hasuobs, sase, a few of ret's games versus the same opponents. Lucky vs Brown on daybreak, yugioh vs vampire on daybreak, ret vs genius on daybreak from dreamhack. Just want to note that what's popular right now may not prove to be anywhere close to optimal. There was a time that 2 gate robo -> expand was considered the best opening against Terran and 3 gate sentry -> expand was considered the best opening against Zerg. And before you say, "Sure, but the game was so new!" consider how long those builds remained popular and how new this fast-third-nexus vs fast-third-hatch corner of the metagame is. It's likely that nobody is doing anything that's anywhere close to optimal and we simply don't know any better yet. Sure, but I can't in good faith suggest it. Alright, and I wouldn't suggest going double robo colossi in a situation where you know that the meat of Zerg's army will be in the air (untargetable by colossi) and the support component can be instantly killed/neutralized by feedback. At the point where you're making this decision, you already have a good roach-killing force, so you need to adjust your army to beat infestors, broodlords and broodlings. Templar/archon tech is clearly better than colossus tech against infestors and broodlords, and archons (with some zealot support) are just as good vs broodlings as colossi. It seems like a no-brainer to skip colossi unless there's a bridge timing on your way to your lategame comp that you just can't cross without colossi. There might be such a bridge timing, but I'd explore the more efficient path before I scaled back and resigned myself to playing more conservatively. Imo colossi are a lot better than archons at dealing with broodlings. I find skipping colossi and going straight for carriers leaves you weak to broodlord attacks until you get 4-6 carriers. Also, keep in mind that I'm one of the biggest supporters of carriers. Btw wanna play my z? My finger's about healed up. On April 25 2012 23:54 Yuffie wrote:hey ignorant kcdc, I just wanted to mention once again how http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFEhardcounters Stephano. But guess you will still not believe me , even with my 90% win ratio against current metagame zergs. GL wasting ur time with other builds, since u always ignore my tips. Check my EU match history if you don't believe me ... Yuffie 573 cheers Don't be a fucking dick. Would love to play, but I'm on a self-imposed ban from SC2, at least until the expansion comes out. I'm still checking in on the community, but I have a pretty demanding job and I'm trying to start up a business at the same time, and SC2 was taking too much time. I could just play a couple hours a week, but it's not that fun to play when you know you suck and don't intend to do anything about it.
=(
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In my opinion, the best way to survive to the 12 minute mark 200/200 roach max is going FFE into a really standard build, only 1 stargate and do some harassment, try and kill queens so he misses injects while teching to a 2 base collosus (3 or 4 collosus is enough or go before he reaches corruptors tech) and push out with a good base gateway army and a couple collosi. Build your third and force the zerg to make more and more roaches with his larvae so he can't reach any tech in time your third is done and established. Infestor's isnt a big problem vs a good collosi count just force field well.
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I know this might not be very contributive, but I have pretty decent results with 8-10 min thirds and 4-5gate robo immortal -> high templar and storm.
Storm is actually not that bad vs roaches, and it keeps you safe vs what I feel have been more prevelent for zergs these days when they see heavy immortals and a third -> a roach hydra push. Plus it allows for good defense vs any kind of muta switch.
I also like templar vs any kind of infestor play, and I think it allows you to take a quicker 4th and go towards Momaship and carriers fasters. The biggest problem I have with going colossi in general in the matchup is that it's quite vulnerable if you manage them bad, they require pretty big buildup period and they pretty much force a spire and corrupter that allows the zerg to transition into broods very nicely. I do however agree that they are very useful vs broodlings, but decent templar control and faster armor upgrades gives protoss an edge in I feel in the early stage of the bl/infestor lategame.
Just a few thoughts
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So why aren't people going 1-gate 3rd nexus more? http://sc2casts.com/cast8243-Stephano-vs-WhiteRa-Best-of-3-IPL-4-Group-Stage
If you go 1-gate 1-gas into 3rd Nexus you can throw it down ~6 mins (while pressuring with some zealots), but ranged and some others seem to grab it after their 3rd or 4th gates and get it ~8 mins. At 6 mins the zerg can't really punish your 3rd unless they've already been massing a lot of units before you even throw down the nexus (the 3 hatch into baneling bust seems to be the most dangerous timing around this time), and in that case you can just cancel it and hole up in your natural and you basically just forced a bunch of units for the cost of some canceled buildings. If you open gate-nexus-core or can go gate before cannon out of a FFE and really chrono WG hard (5x) you can get warp gate done in time to defend any potential responses after the zerg spots your 3rd.
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On April 25 2012 11:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 09:21 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 09:00 kcdc wrote:On April 25 2012 08:17 NrGmonk wrote:On April 25 2012 07:39 Nostrada wrote:
I've experimented with 8min 3rd base this week on ladder vs few GM zergs. I've been able to hold the roach ling pressure, but in my last game FXOLoWeLy simple got really fast broodlords and crushed me.
He had 8 broodlords + swarm of lings @ 15min mark. +80 drones too. He had traded army well tho before that so maybe I could've slowed him down a bit if I wouldn't have lost sentries etc.
Is there an answer for greedy broodlord tech? If your opponent scouts your fast 3rd, he can freely go only ling infestor into 15 minute broods. In my opinion, this forces you to play a macro game as you cannot reliably push him. You need colossi to fight ling/infestor/spine cost efficiently and by the time you push out with 2-3 colossi at his door, he already has broods morphing. He can even stop such a push with ling/infestor/spine/corruptor in some cases. For an example of this, check MC vs DRG on metropolis in their 2nd set from MLG spring arena. One tip I could give you is to scout well and confirm he's going fast have as fast as possible. Then commit to colossi asap with at least 2 robos. One mistake people do when trying fast 3rd is staying on stalkers for too long. They're not used to how fast you can macro and they end up maxed with 2 colossi and the rest stalker/sentry, which isn't optimal at all. After you get colossi, commit to either going for the very long term macro game with fast 4th/fast mothership or a push on a side expansion that isn't well defended with spines; this is only possible on some maps. See Genius vs Ret on Daybreak from Dreamhack for an example of this. Your logic here is: (1) Z is going fast infestor-broodlord (2) I took fast third, so I can't punish fast infestor-broodlord => Therefore, get double robo colossus to deal with fast infestor-broodlord. That conclusion seems a little fishy to me. Why wouldn't you pick a tech that's better against infestor-broodlord like archon-carrier-mothership? What do colossi accomplish against infestor-broodlord that archons (and a few templar) don't accomplish at least as well? I guess that's ok but imo colossi are the better choice. I'm only a fan of templar/archon into mothership versus muta into broodlord, not infestor into broodlord. Colossi are initially better versus both infestor/ling and infestor/ling/broodlord. Colossi allow for some semblance of pressure, as it's impossible to push with gateway/templar into spines and infestors. They're also the more stable option versus infestor/ling/broodlord, as you can get easily caught in the transition to carriers that composition is way more unforgiving for both sides. Most importantly though, I've never seen a competent game where someone successfully went templar/archon into mothership versus fast broodlords. IMO, the reason you don't see people get templar/archon tech before colossi is that it's vulnerable to roaches. But if you know Z is skipping the roach phase to go straight to late game, it's going to be a good choice. Colossi vs infestor-BL is about running around Z's immobile army, counter-attacking, and delaying. And it can work okay, but you get to the real power composition where you can take Z head on faster if you skip the colossi. Not saying there's a right or wrong answer. They're different styles.
you don't even make collossi vs this 200/200 roach business, it's just more immortals or more void rays.
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On April 26 2012 01:18 Skyro wrote:So why aren't people going 1-gate 3rd nexus more? http://sc2casts.com/cast8243-Stephano-vs-WhiteRa-Best-of-3-IPL-4-Group-StageIf you go 1-gate 1-gas into 3rd Nexus you can throw it down ~6 mins (while pressuring with some zealots), but ranged and some others seem to grab it after their 3rd or 4th gates and get it ~8 mins. At 6 mins the zerg can't really punish your 3rd unless they've already been massing a lot of units before you even throw down the nexus (the 3 hatch into baneling bust seems to be the most dangerous timing around this time), and in that case you can just cancel it and hole up in your natural and you basically just forced a bunch of units for the cost of some canceled buildings. If you open gate-nexus-core or can go gate before cannon out of a FFE and really chrono WG hard (5x) you can get warp gate done in time to defend any potential responses after the zerg spots your 3rd.
I definitely like the idea of taking a 3rd at 6~ minutes or so and off of 1 gas and 1 gate. I don't have any experience with it at all, and while at first glance it does seem a bit risky to me, you've perked my curiousity and I'm gonna experiment with it a bit.
I'll play around with it and post my results here.
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EPT
