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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On April 20 2012 17:30 Clarity_nl wrote:
I think surviving the 200 max roach push is more than just a simple: "I counter it with this".
Solid play while securing a third without cutting corners beats it. Good ff, good positioning, good sim city at your third.
You don't need good force fields. You need god-like force fields. Seriously check out recent games of MC vs DRG and imagine the amount of games you'd lose just replaying that scenario. He does some insanely sick holds. I do realize that DRG is arguably the best zerg in the world, but let's face it, maxing out on roaches at 12 min and a-moving is not comparable in diffuculty to having MC-level force-fields. This is the reason why Stephano has such massive success versus foreigners, no foreigner even comes close to competing with MC:s force-field micro.
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On April 24 2012 02:33 Azarkon wrote:
A lot of builds that work - and a lot that doesn't - have been talked about, but looking at Stephano's stream there is a new build going around on the EU server that is handling his build very well - he's lost twice in a row to it already, and not to the best of players. It's basically a very fast 4 gate +1 zealot pressure into 1-2 base all-in, but that itself is not exciting because 4 gates are a flimsy build. The question is - is the build scoutable? Are you able to fake a FFE into it? Because an unscoutable 4-5 gate build is what Protoss needs to force a meta-game shift away from 3 hatch roach.
Well, zerg can't afford to suicide an ovie in every 30 seconds. Once that wall is up w/ zealot and canon, zerg shouldn't be able to see much of anything in both the main and natural without saccing an ovie. So the question is, at what time can warp gate be finished doing a standard FFE (nexus/forge/cannon/gateway - cyber)? Understand current meta is double gas at ~6 minutes, RW at ~7 minutes. So roaches/speed lings won't be out until about 7:30.
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Northern Ireland25071 Posts
On April 22 2012 18:02 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 17:16 shirobu wrote:
I was watching CreatorPrime's stream the other day vs IMLosira and his approach to this was to open standard ffe with the zealot stalker poke, and followed it up with gases 3 and 4 before adding gateways 2,3 and 4. He would then add a robo, and go collosus while taking his third. He held the third with good positioning and forcefields etc. It was on Antiga Shipyard.
Naturally I can't tell if Losira did the build correct or the most optimised way, but Losira is no scrub and Creator held it rather well. Antiga shipyard is a really good map for defending this sort of thing, but this won't work nearly as easily on a lot of other maps. Entombed Valley is another good map, but trying to defend a third against this on say... Daybreak, would be a hell of a lot more difficult.
Yeah as far as I can tell holding this is entirely based on the map. Antiga has a pretty short distance to the third base, and there is less requirement to split your forces, Entombed likewise. Off the top of my map those two are the optimal ones for taking earlyish thirds and holding them.
Kind of irritating that so much of dealing with this style is dependent on map architecture.
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On April 24 2012 04:48 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 18:02 Whitewing wrote:On April 22 2012 17:16 shirobu wrote:
I was watching CreatorPrime's stream the other day vs IMLosira and his approach to this was to open standard ffe with the zealot stalker poke, and followed it up with gases 3 and 4 before adding gateways 2,3 and 4. He would then add a robo, and go collosus while taking his third. He held the third with good positioning and forcefields etc. It was on Antiga Shipyard.
Naturally I can't tell if Losira did the build correct or the most optimised way, but Losira is no scrub and Creator held it rather well. Antiga shipyard is a really good map for defending this sort of thing, but this won't work nearly as easily on a lot of other maps. Entombed Valley is another good map, but trying to defend a third against this on say... Daybreak, would be a hell of a lot more difficult. Yeah as far as I can tell holding this is entirely based on the map. Antiga has a pretty short distance to the third base, and there is less requirement to split your forces, Entombed likewise. Off the top of my map those two are the optimal ones for taking earlyish thirds and holding them. Kind of irritating that so much of dealing with this style is dependent on map architecture.
Fully disagreed with the Antiga call, but Entombed, yes. Maps that have thirds further from the nat, or at least two open runways into the third and nat are ideal for the zerg. I can send half my army to your third and half into your natural and you have to choose which you want to defend. If you split your army, you lose more units than you would otherwise and the re-load hurts even more. If you don't split, you lose a lot of stuff at your natural.
Entombed is strong because 1 position can defend both bases quite well. The same can't be said for many other maps.
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Northern Ireland25071 Posts
On April 24 2012 05:05 CookieMaker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 04:48 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 22 2012 18:02 Whitewing wrote:On April 22 2012 17:16 shirobu wrote:
I was watching CreatorPrime's stream the other day vs IMLosira and his approach to this was to open standard ffe with the zealot stalker poke, and followed it up with gases 3 and 4 before adding gateways 2,3 and 4. He would then add a robo, and go collosus while taking his third. He held the third with good positioning and forcefields etc. It was on Antiga Shipyard.
Naturally I can't tell if Losira did the build correct or the most optimised way, but Losira is no scrub and Creator held it rather well. Antiga shipyard is a really good map for defending this sort of thing, but this won't work nearly as easily on a lot of other maps. Entombed Valley is another good map, but trying to defend a third against this on say... Daybreak, would be a hell of a lot more difficult. Yeah as far as I can tell holding this is entirely based on the map. Antiga has a pretty short distance to the third base, and there is less requirement to split your forces, Entombed likewise. Off the top of my map those two are the optimal ones for taking earlyish thirds and holding them. Kind of irritating that so much of dealing with this style is dependent on map architecture. Fully disagreed with the Antiga call, but Entombed, yes. Maps that have thirds further from the nat, or at least two open runways into the third and nat are ideal for the zerg. I can send half my army to your third and half into your natural and you have to choose which you want to defend. If you split your army, you lose more units than you would otherwise and the re-load hurts even more. If you don't split, you lose a lot of stuff at your natural. Entombed is strong because 1 position can defend both bases quite well. The same can't be said for many other maps.
Just from personal experience of dealing with this build executed (often sub-optimally it must be said) Antiga isn't as ideal as Entombed, agreed but it's better than many others. Some positions are better than others given to the map symmetry, I like for example how Titan approached laying out and splitting his forces on this. Not easy mind
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Alright so it's been a while since I posted here, but I wanted to contribute a little more and possibly get some ideas from others.
I've worked a lot on refining a style that allows me to get a fast third. I tried a lot of different ways, some including a robotics facility before the 3rd nexus. I've come to a lot of conclusions, one of them being that immortals, although buff, are not nearly as good of an option as stalkers with +2 weapons. Immortals are clunky and can get sniped off easily, while stalkers are a bit more forgiving as they can be blinked away, making them much more cost efficient during a head on engagement, as well as making it easier to get into position when trying to defend more than one location. Stalkers are also much more versatile, and they shoot air, which is good against mutas 
The replay below is me against Stephano, from today.
http://drop.sc/165884
Something to note - I feel like taking a fast 3rd is a lot better at cross positions, those extra seconds that it takes for their reinforcements to arrive helps a lot.
Some mistakes that I made
1) I can split my army better, including my sentries, to get better forcefields off when he tries to get the gateways. That way I am at least killing a few roaches even if he gets my gateway(s).
2) I can position my wall better on the right side, it doesn't need to be so far forward. I lost 300 minerals at one point, when he targetted down those 2 gateways that were building. I didn't get the cancel off.
3) I overproduced probes. I guess it's just a bad habit, whenever I am multitasking I tend to que probes up. I also got supply blocked one or two times.
I think if I fix these small problems, I can survive the attack. I may have even survived had we been at cross spawns, because I would have those extra seconds.
I'm trying to find ways to refine the build even more. One of the problems I'm having is that on a lot of maps there are rocks between the 3rd and the natural, which make it very problematic to take a fast 3rd because in order to defend my nat and the 3rd I will need to bring down the rocks, and I can do that by changing the build a little so that I get 2 zealots early instead of the stalker. But the downside to this is that I can't put pressure on the zerg, which is kind of important. These maps are Ohana and Metropolis.
Another variation I thought of doing is throwing down a dark shrine after I start my +2 weps and blink. I would opt for a later robotics facility, but even if I don't do damage with the dts, I think I can at the very least pull his attention away from my base and onto his long enough to reach around 140~150 supply. Once the stalker ball gets big enough you can start being very cost efficient.
Another idea I had was that it's probably possibly to get a faster 3rd by expanding with just 1 gateway, but that seems a bit risky to me, and the 3 gate before 3rd varation just seems much much safer.
Overall I think the build is very good, and it's become a standard build for me on a lot of maps. It's very rewarding if you can play it perfectly, but its also not very forgiving if you make a lot of mistakes, such as missing forcefields. But then again, that's protoss :D.
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ranged, i play at a lower level than you (midmaster) but i wonder if a stalker ball with less gas heavy optimizations would be sufficient to hold. here i am betting on 3-4 fewer sentries, less gas mining, commitment to 7 gates and hopefully having an extra round and a half of stalkers. in terms of specific optimizations, what r ur thoughts about:
- committing to production off of 7 gates instead of attempting to scale to 9. i realize the need for a funneling wall, but the last two didn't help you anyways for that timing
- making your lower ground gateway wall to the right, not the middle pathway. it's just less your army has to split up.
- cutting sentry production. i wonder if you can just take 3 geyser, make only 3 sentry. a lot of unused energy in that scenario, and even so i don't think the FFs given the walls helped you that much. for instance at your third, he was just able to use the trapped roaches to focus your gates.
- when i do +1 zealot timings into stalker off 7 gate on antiga, i feel like blink angles given to me by my gates and the higher ground of the 3rd/main/nat are sufficient to get good concaves. imagine how that battle would've gone with ~ 12 more stalkers and 3 fewer sentries.
- you can also think of maybe skipping the robo if your sole goal is survival. this is probably the most controversial cus it limits you later, but you'd trade a robo for more stalkers and cannons. cannons kind of pay for themselves as they are foodless and don't require pylons.
- would immortal hallucinations have helped?
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On April 24 2012 12:58 RaNgeD wrote:Alright so it's been a while since I posted here, but I wanted to contribute a little more and possibly get some ideas from others. I've worked a lot on refining a style that allows me to get a fast third. I tried a lot of different ways, some including a robotics facility before the 3rd nexus. I've come to a lot of conclusions, one of them being that immortals, although buff, are not nearly as good of an option as stalkers with +2 weapons. Immortals are clunky and can get sniped off easily, while stalkers are a bit more forgiving as they can be blinked away, making them much more cost efficient during a head on engagement, as well as making it easier to get into position when trying to defend more than one location. Stalkers are also much more versatile, and they shoot air, which is good against mutas The replay below is me against Stephano, from today. http://drop.sc/165884Something to note - I feel like taking a fast 3rd is a lot better at cross positions, those extra seconds that it takes for their reinforcements to arrive helps a lot. Some mistakes that I made 1) I can split my army better, including my sentries, to get better forcefields off when he tries to get the gateways. That way I am at least killing a few roaches even if he gets my gateway(s). 2) I can position my wall better on the right side, it doesn't need to be so far forward. I lost 300 minerals at one point, when he targetted down those 2 gateways that were building. I didn't get the cancel off. 3) I overproduced probes. I guess it's just a bad habit, whenever I am multitasking I tend to que probes up. I also got supply blocked one or two times. I think if I fix these small problems, I can survive the attack. I may have even survived had we been at cross spawns, because I would have those extra seconds. I'm trying to find ways to refine the build even more. One of the problems I'm having is that on a lot of maps there are rocks between the 3rd and the natural, which make it very problematic to take a fast 3rd because in order to defend my nat and the 3rd I will need to bring down the rocks, and I can do that by changing the build a little so that I get 2 zealots early instead of the stalker. But the downside to this is that I can't put pressure on the zerg, which is kind of important. These maps are Ohana and Metropolis. Another variation I thought of doing is throwing down a dark shrine after I start my +2 weps and blink. I would opt for a later robotics facility, but even if I don't do damage with the dts, I think I can at the very least pull his attention away from my base and onto his long enough to reach around 140~150 supply. Once the stalker ball gets big enough you can start being very cost efficient. Another idea I had was that it's probably possibly to get a faster 3rd by expanding with just 1 gateway, but that seems a bit risky to me, and the 3 gate before 3rd varation just seems much much safer. Overall I think the build is very good, and it's become a standard build for me on a lot of maps. It's very rewarding if you can play it perfectly, but its also not very forgiving if you make a lot of mistakes, such as missing forcefields. But then again, that's protoss :D.
So you find the low ground wall-off helpful on Antiga? I've never tried that before. In what way does it help?
I've also experimented with hallucination as well and to me it feels the faster robo is more helpful. I don't feel I really get anything out of the earlier scouting as long as I was able to force roaches so they don't straight tech to something crazy. I also follow-up with a third with +2 and blink like you and I agree on your points about immortals but I still think it is nice to have 1 or 2 out when the roaches hit, just don't have them ctrl-grp'ed in your main army. This way your immortals won't get caught out of position. Just have them sit behind your gateway wall cuz you know for zerg to break your 3rd they have to attack from multiple points so you know you'll get your worth from them.
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On April 24 2012 14:04 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 12:58 RaNgeD wrote:Alright so it's been a while since I posted here, but I wanted to contribute a little more and possibly get some ideas from others. I've worked a lot on refining a style that allows me to get a fast third. I tried a lot of different ways, some including a robotics facility before the 3rd nexus. I've come to a lot of conclusions, one of them being that immortals, although buff, are not nearly as good of an option as stalkers with +2 weapons. Immortals are clunky and can get sniped off easily, while stalkers are a bit more forgiving as they can be blinked away, making them much more cost efficient during a head on engagement, as well as making it easier to get into position when trying to defend more than one location. Stalkers are also much more versatile, and they shoot air, which is good against mutas The replay below is me against Stephano, from today. http://drop.sc/165884Something to note - I feel like taking a fast 3rd is a lot better at cross positions, those extra seconds that it takes for their reinforcements to arrive helps a lot. Some mistakes that I made 1) I can split my army better, including my sentries, to get better forcefields off when he tries to get the gateways. That way I am at least killing a few roaches even if he gets my gateway(s). 2) I can position my wall better on the right side, it doesn't need to be so far forward. I lost 300 minerals at one point, when he targetted down those 2 gateways that were building. I didn't get the cancel off. 3) I overproduced probes. I guess it's just a bad habit, whenever I am multitasking I tend to que probes up. I also got supply blocked one or two times. I think if I fix these small problems, I can survive the attack. I may have even survived had we been at cross spawns, because I would have those extra seconds. I'm trying to find ways to refine the build even more. One of the problems I'm having is that on a lot of maps there are rocks between the 3rd and the natural, which make it very problematic to take a fast 3rd because in order to defend my nat and the 3rd I will need to bring down the rocks, and I can do that by changing the build a little so that I get 2 zealots early instead of the stalker. But the downside to this is that I can't put pressure on the zerg, which is kind of important. These maps are Ohana and Metropolis. Another variation I thought of doing is throwing down a dark shrine after I start my +2 weps and blink. I would opt for a later robotics facility, but even if I don't do damage with the dts, I think I can at the very least pull his attention away from my base and onto his long enough to reach around 140~150 supply. Once the stalker ball gets big enough you can start being very cost efficient. Another idea I had was that it's probably possibly to get a faster 3rd by expanding with just 1 gateway, but that seems a bit risky to me, and the 3 gate before 3rd varation just seems much much safer. Overall I think the build is very good, and it's become a standard build for me on a lot of maps. It's very rewarding if you can play it perfectly, but its also not very forgiving if you make a lot of mistakes, such as missing forcefields. But then again, that's protoss :D. So you find the low ground wall-off helpful on Antiga? I've never tried that before. In what way does it help? I've also experimented with hallucination as well and to me it feels the faster robo is more helpful. I don't feel I really get anything out of the earlier scouting as long as I was able to force roaches so they don't straight tech to something crazy. I also follow-up with a third with +2 and blink like you and I agree on your points about immortals but I still think it is nice to have 1 or 2 out when the roaches hit, just don't have them ctrl-grp'ed in your main army. This way your immortals won't get caught out of position. Just have them sit behind your gateway wall cuz you know for zerg to break your 3rd they have to attack from multiple points so you know you'll get your worth from them.
Do you mean the ramp wall-off or the wall-off by your nexus? Wall-off by the nexus can help vs mutas since your first (and second if you play seatbelt style) cannons can help defend against mutas and ling runbys however a ramp wall-off helps vs any early roaches or banes as it's easier to forcefield off. It also allows you into your main a little quicker. To be perfectly honest they both have their merits so there is no right or wrong way.
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Hey guys. Only diamond here, and I only recently learned the stephano build (dont have it down 100% yet).
I've had great success against protoss players my level, and even above. Yesterday I played in the Diamonds Are Forever tourney. I got to the finals were I met a toss player who owned me 3 games in a row. Replays can be downloaded here:
http://www.z33k.com/games/starcraft2/tournaments/6723/matches/213473
Disregard the second game, as he did a weird opening I hadent seen before, and my response was a total failure.
What he did was stay on 2 bases for a LONG time, and go blink-stalkers, sentry and immo. My roach/ling army didnt stand a chance. As a counter to what he did I think I could skip some roaches as a reponse to the delayed 3rd, and get more eco and infestors.
Bottomline: what do you guys think of his response of LATE 3rd as a response to the stephano build?
Edit: grammar.
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On April 24 2012 12:58 RaNgeD wrote:
Another idea I had was that it's probably possibly to get a faster 3rd by expanding with just 1 gateway, but that seems a bit risky to me, and the 3 gate before 3rd varation just seems much much safer.
I've been watching Axslav's ZvP recently and his build is kindda.. interesting..
His main idea is to out-greed the Zerg by forfeiting any kind of early pressure. In particular, he'll chrono probes like mad, take a fast third, and tech like no tomorrow.
The recipe is more or less the following one (assuming Zerg is doing the 3-bases style of course, otherwise he adapts):
- 1 zealot is produced out of the first gate and sent as a scout
- then the first gate only produces sentries from now on, until the third goes up
- around the 6' mark ( still only on 1 gate ) he'll drop a robo, make an obs and continuously produce immortals from it
- he delays additional gates as long as he can
- he takes his third around the 9' mark, at this time the additional gates finally come up and he warps more sentries
- his army composition until the 10-11' mark is ~4 immortals and ~10 sentries. Uses the extra minerals to continue macroing and for cannons defense
- after that he adapts based on what he scouts ( if he sees hydras or infestors, he'll go double-robo colossi, if mutas then blink, etc.. )
It's a pretty sexy build but it looks damn dangerous to me..
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On April 24 2012 12:58 RaNgeD wrote:
[..]
Problem is in the end there's nothing to stop the zerg from just starting to make units earlier and attack (and kill) you earlier. I don't see how it can possibly be a viable strategy to make ~6! gateways (that's what u do on antiga right) as a wall while taking a 3rd, and getting +2 and blink, and still have enough units to defend an attack. But, I hope it works out for you, I imagine if you survive the attack it's a very nice situation to be in. 
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On April 24 2012 12:58 RaNgeD wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Alright so it's been a while since I posted here, but I wanted to contribute a little more and possibly get some ideas from others. I've worked a lot on refining a style that allows me to get a fast third. I tried a lot of different ways, some including a robotics facility before the 3rd nexus. I've come to a lot of conclusions, one of them being that immortals, although buff, are not nearly as good of an option as stalkers with +2 weapons. Immortals are clunky and can get sniped off easily, while stalkers are a bit more forgiving as they can be blinked away, making them much more cost efficient during a head on engagement, as well as making it easier to get into position when trying to defend more than one location. Stalkers are also much more versatile, and they shoot air, which is good against mutas The replay below is me against Stephano, from today. http://drop.sc/165884Something to note - I feel like taking a fast 3rd is a lot better at cross positions, those extra seconds that it takes for their reinforcements to arrive helps a lot. Some mistakes that I made 1) I can split my army better, including my sentries, to get better forcefields off when he tries to get the gateways. That way I am at least killing a few roaches even if he gets my gateway(s). 2) I can position my wall better on the right side, it doesn't need to be so far forward. I lost 300 minerals at one point, when he targetted down those 2 gateways that were building. I didn't get the cancel off. 3) I overproduced probes. I guess it's just a bad habit, whenever I am multitasking I tend to que probes up. I also got supply blocked one or two times. I think if I fix these small problems, I can survive the attack. I may have even survived had we been at cross spawns, because I would have those extra seconds. I'm trying to find ways to refine the build even more. One of the problems I'm having is that on a lot of maps there are rocks between the 3rd and the natural, which make it very problematic to take a fast 3rd because in order to defend my nat and the 3rd I will need to bring down the rocks, and I can do that by changing the build a little so that I get 2 zealots early instead of the stalker. But the downside to this is that I can't put pressure on the zerg, which is kind of important. These maps are Ohana and Metropolis. Another variation I thought of doing is throwing down a dark shrine after I start my +2 weps and blink. I would opt for a later robotics facility, but even if I don't do damage with the dts, I think I can at the very least pull his attention away from my base and onto his long enough to reach around 140~150 supply. Once the stalker ball gets big enough you can start being very cost efficient. Another idea I had was that it's probably possibly to get a faster 3rd by expanding with just 1 gateway, but that seems a bit risky to me, and the 3 gate before 3rd varation just seems much much safer. Overall I think the build is very good, and it's become a standard build for me on a lot of maps. It's very rewarding if you can play it perfectly, but its also not very forgiving if you make a lot of mistakes, such as missing forcefields. But then again, that's protoss :D.
Thx A LOT for the insight, very helpful.
I saw your first analysis of this game just in your stream ^^
Keep up that good work.
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On April 24 2012 18:49 aintthatfunny wrote:Problem is in the end there's nothing to stop the zerg from just starting to make units earlier and attack (and kill) you earlier. I don't see how it can possibly be a viable strategy to make ~6! gateways (that's what u do on antiga right) as a wall while taking a 3rd, and getting +2 and blink, and still have enough units to defend an attack. But, I hope it works out for you, I imagine if you survive the attack it's a very nice situation to be in.
If the zerg takes 3 hatch and does an earlier attack, it will be with less drones, and most likely, without roach speed. I get +1 weapons at a good time, so dealing with lings really isn't an issue as long as i'm paying attention, I can forcefield and be very cost efficient.
These type of attacks actually haven't been an issue for me at all, because most zergs get their gas very late and thus have ling speed really late.
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I've experimented with 8min 3rd base this week on ladder vs few GM zergs. I've been able to hold the roach ling pressure, but in my last game FXOLoWeLy simple got really fast broodlords and crushed me.
He had 8 broodlords + swarm of lings @ 15min mark. +80 drones too. He had traded army well tho before that so maybe I could've slowed him down a bit if I wouldn't have lost sentries etc.
Is there an answer for greedy broodlord tech?
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On April 25 2012 07:39 Nostrada wrote:
I've experimented with 8min 3rd base this week on ladder vs few GM zergs. I've been able to hold the roach ling pressure, but in my last game FXOLoWeLy simple got really fast broodlords and crushed me.
He had 8 broodlords + swarm of lings @ 15min mark. +80 drones too. He had traded army well tho before that so maybe I could've slowed him down a bit if I wouldn't have lost sentries etc.
Is there an answer for greedy broodlord tech?
Answer for greedy broodlord tech is to conserve as much army as possible and do a push just as hive finishes with a prism most of the time it's on stalker immo sentry.
The zerg will have put food into corruptors for the broodlords making your job a bit easier with warpin's off 10 gates reinforcing with the prism that's where most of my games end if the zerg tries that.
Counters are usually a gigantic spinewall but in scenarios like that I guess you can just back up and get a mothership. OR They go hydras which tears through the bulk of your gateway army and immos if engaged with spines. it's all about positioning ect though. usually the push hits at like 14 and if your army retention is awesome from the roach max out you can be close to max
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United States8476 Posts
On April 25 2012 07:39 Nostrada wrote:
I've experimented with 8min 3rd base this week on ladder vs few GM zergs. I've been able to hold the roach ling pressure, but in my last game FXOLoWeLy simple got really fast broodlords and crushed me.
He had 8 broodlords + swarm of lings @ 15min mark. +80 drones too. He had traded army well tho before that so maybe I could've slowed him down a bit if I wouldn't have lost sentries etc.
Is there an answer for greedy broodlord tech?
If your opponent scouts your fast 3rd, he can freely go only ling infestor into 15 minute broods. In my opinion, this forces you to play a macro game as you cannot reliably push him. You need colossi to fight ling/infestor/spine cost efficiently and by the time you push out with 2-3 colossi at his door, he already has broods morphing. He can even stop such a push with ling/infestor/spine/corruptor in some cases. For an example of this, check MC vs DRG on metropolis in their 2nd set from MLG spring arena.
One tip I could give you is to scout well and confirm he's going fast have as fast as possible. Then commit to colossi asap with at least 2 robos. One mistake people do when trying fast 3rd is staying on stalkers for too long. They're not used to how fast you can macro and they end up maxed with 2 colossi and the rest stalker/sentry, which isn't optimal at all.
After you get colossi, commit to either going for the very long term macro game with fast 4th/fast mothership or a push on a side expansion that isn't well defended with spines; this is only possible on some maps. See Genius vs Ret on Daybreak from Dreamhack for an example of this.
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On April 24 2012 12:58 RaNgeD wrote:Alright so it's been a while since I posted here, but I wanted to contribute a little more and possibly get some ideas from others. I've worked a lot on refining a style that allows me to get a fast third. I tried a lot of different ways, some including a robotics facility before the 3rd nexus. I've come to a lot of conclusions, one of them being that immortals, although buff, are not nearly as good of an option as stalkers with +2 weapons. Immortals are clunky and can get sniped off easily, while stalkers are a bit more forgiving as they can be blinked away, making them much more cost efficient during a head on engagement, as well as making it easier to get into position when trying to defend more than one location. Stalkers are also much more versatile, and they shoot air, which is good against mutas The replay below is me against Stephano, from today. http://drop.sc/165884Something to note - I feel like taking a fast 3rd is a lot better at cross positions, those extra seconds that it takes for their reinforcements to arrive helps a lot. Some mistakes that I made 1) I can split my army better, including my sentries, to get better forcefields off when he tries to get the gateways. That way I am at least killing a few roaches even if he gets my gateway(s). 2) I can position my wall better on the right side, it doesn't need to be so far forward. I lost 300 minerals at one point, when he targetted down those 2 gateways that were building. I didn't get the cancel off. 3) I overproduced probes. I guess it's just a bad habit, whenever I am multitasking I tend to que probes up. I also got supply blocked one or two times. I think if I fix these small problems, I can survive the attack. I may have even survived had we been at cross spawns, because I would have those extra seconds. I'm trying to find ways to refine the build even more. One of the problems I'm having is that on a lot of maps there are rocks between the 3rd and the natural, which make it very problematic to take a fast 3rd because in order to defend my nat and the 3rd I will need to bring down the rocks, and I can do that by changing the build a little so that I get 2 zealots early instead of the stalker. But the downside to this is that I can't put pressure on the zerg, which is kind of important. These maps are Ohana and Metropolis. Another variation I thought of doing is throwing down a dark shrine after I start my +2 weps and blink. I would opt for a later robotics facility, but even if I don't do damage with the dts, I think I can at the very least pull his attention away from my base and onto his long enough to reach around 140~150 supply. Once the stalker ball gets big enough you can start being very cost efficient. Another idea I had was that it's probably possibly to get a faster 3rd by expanding with just 1 gateway, but that seems a bit risky to me, and the 3 gate before 3rd varation just seems much much safer. Overall I think the build is very good, and it's become a standard build for me on a lot of maps. It's very rewarding if you can play it perfectly, but its also not very forgiving if you make a lot of mistakes, such as missing forcefields. But then again, that's protoss :D.
This was a nice try but it just makes so much more sense to get a much earlier robo and some immortals instead of going for hallucination. Hallucination is just terrible after FE builds, the scouting comes super late (much later then a quick obs would come) and even though immortals are clunky I can not see why you wouldn't want them against roach aggresion.. You have slow sentries anyway and you can use the blink stalkers to split up and prevent multiple pronged attacks. You want the robo anyway for the obs in case of burrow and to transition quickly to colossi if needed as well, why not cut the terrible hallucination and just get the robo earlier? 9 gates is also overkill I think, 7 or 8 should really do if you're massing stalkers. Using a pylon in the main highground to help start a wall easier on the lowground can really help to get a good wall without making too many gates.
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On April 25 2012 08:17 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 07:39 Nostrada wrote:
I've experimented with 8min 3rd base this week on ladder vs few GM zergs. I've been able to hold the roach ling pressure, but in my last game FXOLoWeLy simple got really fast broodlords and crushed me.
He had 8 broodlords + swarm of lings @ 15min mark. +80 drones too. He had traded army well tho before that so maybe I could've slowed him down a bit if I wouldn't have lost sentries etc.
Is there an answer for greedy broodlord tech? If your opponent scouts your fast 3rd, he can freely go only ling infestor into 15 minute broods. In my opinion, this forces you to play a macro game as you cannot reliably push him. You need colossi to fight ling/infestor/spine cost efficiently and by the time you push out with 2-3 colossi at his door, he already has broods morphing. He can even stop such a push with ling/infestor/spine/corruptor in some cases. For an example of this, check MC vs DRG on metropolis in their 2nd set from MLG spring arena. One tip I could give you is to scout well and confirm he's going fast have as fast as possible. Then commit to colossi asap with at least 2 robos. One mistake people do when trying fast 3rd is staying on stalkers for too long. They're not used to how fast you can macro and they end up maxed with 2 colossi and the rest stalker/sentry, which isn't optimal at all. After you get colossi, commit to either going for the very long term macro game with fast 4th/fast mothership or a push on a side expansion that isn't well defended with spines; this is only possible on some maps. See Genius vs Ret on Daybreak from Dreamhack for an example of this.
Your logic here is:
(1) Z is going fast infestor-broodlord
(2) I took fast third, so I can't punish fast infestor-broodlord
=> Therefore, get double robo colossus to deal with fast infestor-broodlord.
That conclusion seems a little fishy to me. Why wouldn't you pick a tech that's better against infestor-broodlord like archon-carrier-mothership? What do colossi accomplish against infestor-broodlord that archons (and a few templar) don't accomplish at least as well?
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On April 25 2012 08:17 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 07:39 Nostrada wrote:
I've experimented with 8min 3rd base this week on ladder vs few GM zergs. I've been able to hold the roach ling pressure, but in my last game FXOLoWeLy simple got really fast broodlords and crushed me.
He had 8 broodlords + swarm of lings @ 15min mark. +80 drones too. He had traded army well tho before that so maybe I could've slowed him down a bit if I wouldn't have lost sentries etc.
Is there an answer for greedy broodlord tech? If your opponent scouts your fast 3rd, he can freely go only ling infestor into 15 minute broods. In my opinion, this forces you to play a macro game as you cannot reliably push him. You need colossi to fight ling/infestor/spine cost efficiently and by the time you push out with 2-3 colossi at his door, he already has broods morphing. He can even stop such a push with ling/infestor/spine/corruptor in some cases. For an example of this, check MC vs DRG on metropolis in their 2nd set from MLG spring arena. One tip I could give you is to scout well and confirm he's going fast have as fast as possible. Then commit to colossi asap with at least 2 robos. One mistake people do when trying fast 3rd is staying on stalkers for too long. They're not used to how fast you can macro and they end up maxed with 2 colossi and the rest stalker/sentry, which isn't optimal at all. After you get colossi, commit to either going for the very long term macro game with fast 4th/fast mothership or a push on a side expansion that isn't well defended with spines; this is only possible on some maps. See Genius vs Ret on Daybreak from Dreamhack for an example of this.
Thx for the post. I'm having a similar issue (not euro gm level yet, only some in na), i can usually make indeed a 8 min 3rd and defend it. But when the Z does not go for the 12 min roach push, i'm honestly kinda lost theory wise. I'm not sure if i should go immorthal/blink/sentry (i guess this is good for a 12 min roach, counter push); or double robo all the way into 3 base all in (aka before infestor-brood); rush mothership/archon/templar; or what. The only thing i'm sure, is that you need a sick composition to beat infestor brood in the current map pool, filled with excelent dead spaces for the broods; and sometimes even taking z bases, that Z ball is gamewinning with decent micro; and due to that, i always prefer to go for a 3 base push.
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EPT
