EPT[SPL] Grand Final: SK Telecom T1 vs KT Rolster - Page 367
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Cheeseburgered
United States716 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On April 10 2012 10:34 Lebesgue wrote: This was a great examples why Terran really needs vultures and MINES against protoss. Otherwise you can get easily overrun by zealots. Had Flash research mines he might have hold and had a couple of vultures he might have held that. But he didn't... Too bad... Flash at that point was totally psychologically broken. Unlike his usual cold and calculating self, he did what no one have expected, panicked. It was as if he didn't even know Vultures existed in the Terran arsenal. But you gotta give Bisu credit, his economy was blooming prior to the Terran push while for Flash got manner Pylon'd about 4 times with his mining not going at his usual flow and twice got his Gas stolen. | ||
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hydrogg
United States377 Posts
On April 10 2012 10:44 Xiphos wrote: Flash at that point was totally psychologically broken. Unlike his usual cold and calculating self, he did what no one have expected, panicked. It was as if he didn't even know Vultures existed in the Terran arsenal. But you gotta give Bisu credit, his economy was blooming prior to the Terran push while for Flash got manner Pylon'd about 4 times with his mining not going at his usual flow and twice got his Gas stolen. There wasn't time for him to research mines/speed and get vultures. He couldn't even delay the speedlots cause his tanks was on the other side of the map | ||
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Zamkis
Canada114 Posts
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Cheeseburgered
United States716 Posts
SKT actually had faith in Hyuk back then... now he's just their benchwarmer | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On April 10 2012 10:44 Xiphos wrote: Flash at that point was totally psychologically broken. Unlike his usual cold and calculating self, he did what no one have expected, panicked. It was as if he didn't even know Vultures existed in the Terran arsenal. But you gotta give Bisu credit, his economy was blooming prior to the Terran push while for Flash got manner Pylon'd about 4 times with his mining not going at his usual flow and twice got his Gas stolen. Well, Bisu kept rebuilding reavers, so Flash really needed tanks too. It's just that Bisu was one 8 gates + reaver and Flash was on 2 rax + 3 fact. Also Bisu took a third quite early, so even if mines had given Flash a short period of map control, I don't think it would have been enough. But yeah that manner pylons were incredible. Always blocking many SCVs, never losing the probe, and all that during flawless macro/micro. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On April 10 2012 10:52 endy wrote: Well, Bisu kept rebuilding reavers, so Flash really needed tanks too. It's just that Bisu was one 8 gates + reaver and Flash was on 2 rax + 3 fact. Also Bisu took a third quite early, so even if mines had given Flash a short period of map control, I don't think it would have been enough. But yeah that manner pylons were incredible. Always blocking many SCVs, never losing the probe, and all that during flawless macro/micro. It really make you appreciate the titans of the game. Flash's game sense was pretty much on the dot too, he immediately knew that Bisu was going to proxy gate. Any other Terran would have fallen to Bisu's Zealots but Flash utilized his building placement to the utmost advantage to pull back and deal dmg. Ah even days after the game have been played, I still find myself exalted at the beauty of the game. May Flash, Bisu, Stork, Jaedong, Fantasy and any other A-class players can demonstrate this level of game ONE MOAR TIME! | ||
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Pasargadae
Korea (South)173 Posts
On April 10 2012 11:02 Xiphos wrote: It really make you appreciate the titans of the game. Flash's game sense was pretty much on the dot too, he immediately knew that Bisu was going to proxy gate. Any other Terran would have fallen to Bisu's Zealots but Flash utilized his building placement to the utmost advantage to pull back and deal dmg. Ah even days after the game have been played, I still find myself exalted at the beauty of the game. May Flash, Bisu, Stork, Jaedong, Fantasy and any other S-class players can demonstrate this level of game ONE MOAR TIME!  | ||
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[V]
United States905 Posts
Finally, Bisu! You couldn't have chosen a better stage for this!!! Grats SKT T1! | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On April 10 2012 10:44 Xiphos wrote: Flash at that point was totally psychologically broken. Unlike his usual cold and calculating self, he did what no one have expected, panicked. It was as if he didn't even know Vultures existed in the Terran arsenal. But you gotta give Bisu credit, his economy was blooming prior to the Terran push while for Flash got manner Pylon'd about 4 times with his mining not going at his usual flow and twice got his Gas stolen. Flash did get vultures, but only after the zealots had killed most of the tanks. After I re-watched the game I realised that it was a really short amount of time between the cybercore being broken, and the zealots streaming into the main, it was only enough time for one production cycle, Flash would have had to cancel a round of half-built tanks to get vultures. Flash was too far behind in economy, which was the result of not being able to keep up with Bisu's multitask. When Bisu was harassing, his minerals were around 100, where as for Flash he floated up to 600 I would presume he stopped building workers or macro-ing and often up to 4-5 workers were disrupted by manner pylons. In the end he only had enough money for a 3 fact push and he lost too many units, so even though Bisu was only mining off 2 bases, Flash would have not had enough to beat an 8 gate pump. The final battle was really only the icing on the cake, even if Flash had mines and vultures, he would have almost no army and a goon pump afterwards would have cleaned that up. Its tantamount to Flash's ability that he managed to last as long as he did. Bisu won from the moment it was a 1 gate zealot pump vs 1 Rax FE, this is the Bisu exception, because no other protoss has the ability to continuously micro zealots, plus deal significant economical damage with a single probe all with perfect macro. I feel like this is what is missing from post-SKT Bisu, chaos inducing multitask play in vT, he uses it well in vZ, but I think Best's influence has had too much of an effect on his vT play, he needs to balance it back out again and re-incorporate some of his old aggressive harass style, and then he will become a monster again. That said Flash's timing was perfect and he managed to take out a base conceptually without almost no losses until Bisu broke it later on, it almost looked as if Bisu would lose from this point. His 2 rax marine push timing was perfect also, in fact it would have won the game if Bisu did a 1 gate FE like last time, or nearly all 1 gate tech/2 gate variations, how was Flash to know that Bisu would do a 2 gate before cyb, because the last time that build was used was back in 2003. That's why its so stupid to say that Flash was too aggressive in the beginning, 95% of the time, Flash would have made the right decision and you all would have called him a genius. | ||
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
On April 09 2012 17:46 jaQi wrote: I think this is just a typical Bisu post interview. Blah blah " I thought I would lose" blah blah "luck was on my side" and so on. Sometimes I wish he would gave interviews like in his early days. How ironical I remember him saying something like: "No one has faster hands like me." ...and something like *i feel like god wanted me to win* :D we all love our bisu! | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=99406 lolololol The 1st PL I saw live. It was an awesome series. On April 10 2012 11:02 Xiphos wrote: It really make you appreciate the titans of the game. Flash's game sense was pretty much on the dot too, he immediately knew that Bisu was going to proxy gate. Any other Terran would have fallen to Bisu's Zealots but Flash utilized his building placement to the utmost advantage to pull back and deal dmg. Ah even days after the game have been played, I still find myself exalted at the beauty of the game. May Flash, Bisu, Stork, Jaedong, Fantasy and any other A-class players can demonstrate this level of game ONE MOAR TIME! And If it were just another protoss, that sublime zealot/probe control just wouldn't be there and the protoss would have fallen after the initial marine push towards the proxy. | ||
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MeteorRise
Canada611 Posts
BW for life. | ||
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
also @ 14:55 it looked like he was fucking dead, I'm so happy he pulled his shit together and did some amazing reaver micro. I see any other toss dying 100% there | ||
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LinkinPork
Canada222 Posts
On April 10 2012 07:53 Kiett wrote: 2009, Oz made it to the finals against SKT, where Jaedong lost both his games to Fantasy, one of which being the Super Ace Match that determined everything. Jaedong had the PL victory within his reach after carrying his team like a monster all season, but in the end, just couldn't take it. And in the 2007-08 Grand Finals, where Lecaf beat Samsung, Jaedong got sniped by Frozean. Jaedong's got a terrible grand finals record, lol. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
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Ciryandor
United States3735 Posts
On April 10 2012 11:24 sluggaslamoo wrote: Flash did get vultures, but only after the zealots had killed most of the tanks. After I re-watched the game I realised that it was a really short amount of time between the cybercore being broken, and the zealots streaming into the main, it was only enough time for one production cycle, Flash would have had to cancel a round of half-built tanks to get vultures. Flash was too far behind in economy, which was the result of not being able to keep up with Bisu's multitask. When Bisu was harassing, his minerals were around 100, where as for Flash he floated up to 600 I would presume he stopped building workers or macro-ing and often up to 4-5 workers were disrupted by manner pylons. In the end he only had enough money for a 3 fact push and he lost too many units, so even though Bisu was only mining off 2 bases, Flash would have not had enough to beat an 8 gate pump. The final battle was really only the icing on the cake, even if Flash had mines and vultures, he would have almost no army and a goon pump afterwards would have cleaned that up. Its tantamount to Flash's ability that he managed to last as long as he did. Bisu won from the moment it was a 1 gate zealot pump vs 1 Rax FE, this is the Bisu exception, because no other protoss has the ability to continuously micro zealots, plus deal significant economical damage with a single probe all with perfect macro. I feel like this is what is missing from post-SKT Bisu, chaos inducing multitask play in vT, he uses it well in vZ, but I think Best's influence has had too much of an effect on his vT play, he needs to balance it back out again and re-incorporate some of his old aggressive harass style, and then he will become a monster again. That said Flash's timing was perfect and he managed to take out a base conceptually without almost no losses until Bisu broke it later on, it almost looked as if Bisu would lose from this point. His 2 rax marine push timing was perfect also, in fact it would have won the game if Bisu did a 1 gate FE like last time, or nearly all 1 gate tech/2 gate variations, how was Flash to know that Bisu would do a 2 gate before cyb, because the last time that build was used was back in 2003. That's why its so stupid to say that Flash was too aggressive in the beginning, 95% of the time, Flash would have made the right decision and you all would have called him a genius. Wasn't he on 3 gates until the proxy had its pylon destroyed? Well, it's 2 gates in-base before core all right. On April 10 2012 13:26 Lightwip wrote: I momentarily forgot to appreciate how much of a finals bonjwa Fantasy is. 5-0 in 4 Finals. Insane. | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
Other than the manner pylon and a few marines, Bisu had inflicted pretty much NO damage to Flash. Flash was very favored at this point, and I suspect that in practice, Flash was always able to kill the proxy gate when he pushed out w/ Marine/SCV. A good example to compare to is Flash vs Violet in MSL + Show Spoiler + I thought it was very clever of Flash to follow up with a 3fact Bachanic timing, which took advantage of how Flash's opening strategy gave him a huge marine count to work with, and was the fastest timing attack he could use to control the backdoor ridge in that specific game Unfortunately for Flash, Bisu had played a level beyond what Flash expected, turning a failed proxy rush into a successful bait, inflicting ridiculous amounts of damage with his Probe when nobody expected it to do more, microing like a fuckin beast and by luck or by skill, choosing the correct teching pattern and unit composition to counter Flash's strategies and tactics. Honestly, the ACE game is the most impressed I've ever been and truly exemplifies the greatest part of Proleague, where both sides bring out brilliant strategies derived from countless hours of preparation and studying of the other player. G fucking G. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
flash handles manner pylons different, in a more aggressive way, than most terrans do he is also very happy to just take his natural gas I disagree with Arvick, though, in him preparing for it. The timing was because, in my eyes, he was wanting to see if Bisu was going to 12 nex, 2 gate range before 2nd pylon (10/15), whatever. I don't think he saw it coming after gate. Before gate, sure, bisu did it on match point vs baby... I just don't believe I've seen that out of the korean scene. I personally do things like that all the time, so it was a wonderful game for me. I don't feel like Flash was ready for it because Bisu got to dictate the game. Flash was forced to throw down a 2nd barracks because of the gas steal and manner pylon, and, even if he did it vs his teammate Violet one time (I was watching that game) I feel this one felt like it was way more forced than in the game vs Violet, where he knew he could steamroll his teammate. Indications of this lie in his canceled bunker at bisu's proxy gate, or, earlier, where he rapidly tried to load all his marines into the bunker at his natural which ended up dying to ranged goons. I feel like Bisu made the right decision in teching reaver than teching templar archives. Flash had a very innovative backdoor push, and HTs would have probably melted before being able to storm. His reaver did not really do much until the checkmate, other than inflict damage on tanks and marines, but it kept flash at bay. That was the key to the game for me, all the way down to Bisu's 3 goons that were left on his failed attempt to break flash's position behind his main base (leaving 1 bunker, and a tank) The speedlot transition was very unexpected at that timing. I feel like it was improvised in that instead of taking a 3rd base (not counting his main - he wasn't mining from it), that he just wanted to go all in. It was the right decision, given the nature of the map, and he really caught Flash's army pushed out of position. I feel like Flash relied too heavily on the 2 barracks - he tied too many resources up in it, to where he had 3 facts with addons making tanks, still making a few marines and even a medic (which means he wasted money getting academy) I know people would be like "well, don't you need an academy to scan for DTs?" but did he make any dts? nope. You say that "Bisu wasted 100 minerals taking his gas" First off, he did it twice. Second off, if you think trapping 5 scvs in a manner pylon doesn't hinder a Terran's economy, well, no, it probably doesn't, because SCVs mine slower anyways! lol jk! in all honesty, though, I feel like it would really hurt the economy minimally, as in give Kim Taek Yong a minor economic edge, but when you add in the acknowledgment factor of "oh, I have 5 scvs I have to manually drag, click, hit A, or rub" it favors the aggressor in the scenario. To further the point, though, with the academy, medic, extra marines, cancelled bunker, bunker (probably needed, so possibly disclude that) I feel like Flash wasted minerals. I also would like to expand onto that. He needed to have 2 addons, off of 2 factories, and perhaps up to 3-4 more making vultures. He needed to push out, kill Bisu's 3rd, or do something similar to what he did, but with mines, and then dictate that Bisu can't keep making reavers out of his robotics and force him to make obs The game was about who was dictating it, for me, and with the proxy gate + gas steal I felt like Bisu was dictating the game, not that Flash "let it happen". That's asinine. His timings were all terrible in comparison to normal, he had to pull scvs off, got many trapped, and got his main gas taken not once, but twice. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On April 10 2012 10:41 Cheeseburgered wrote: what happened in game 7? did flash forget to build vultures or something? I think people are overplaying Flash's lack of vultures. Bisu started a replacement core while his first core was being shelled, and while it was being shelled and he could still build goons before it went down. So the actual time Bisu was without a core was actually very short. Probably less than one production cycle worth of time, so the from the number of zealots he had, you can see that he had already started to make zealots of his own volition, and continued to do so after his replacement core finished. Given that Flash had just killed almost all of Bisu's goons in the previous 2 engagements it was pretty reasonable to assume that Bisu would be making more goons at this stage, and therefore it was reasonable for Flash to make more tanks. I think the really telling part of this was that Bisu was already at something like 8 gates. This means that prior to Flash setting up behind his main, he had the more than enough econ to pump from 8 gates, since you need to add gates while pumping from the others. And after running his probes from main we know that he could still support those 8 gates (from the 4 gates a base rule). Whereas Flash had only 2 raxes and 3 facts, and had not been producing marines from his raxes non stop (seeing how few marines he had when Bisu countered), nor was he adding more facts or raxes, due to either insufficient econ or multitask. With only 3 facts against 8 gates, even vultures are not going to hold it. It didn't look like it to us, to Bisu, or possibly to Flash, but at this stage Bisu had actually effectively won. Flash chose to send 5 tanks to reinforce his setup behind Bisu's main, and at this stage the only way Bisu could actually lose, was if he went to attack that fortified setup behind his main and lose his army. Flash might have been able to defend if he instead had those 5 tanks in his nat, but for all he knew Bisu could have gone to clear the units behind his main, which leaves Bisu at 3 bases and 8 gates, and Flash at barely 2 bases and 3 facts, still a winning position for Bisu. So all in all, I don't think Flash making vultures would have helped him. He needed those tanks to make the push to make the game look as close as it was. He had time to pump at most 2 rounds of vultures instead of tanks to defend the mass zealots that Bisu had, if he had started pumping vults earlier, he could not have forced the tanks behind Bisu's main, leaving him at a sub 2 base economy vs a 3 base econ at 8 gates. So I think the success of the attack actually made the situation look alot closer than it actually was, Bisu was in fact really far ahead, just that noone knew it at the time. | ||
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