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10387 Posts
On April 10 2012 14:47 Bill Murray wrote:
I disagree with Arvick, though, in him preparing for it. The timing was because, in my eyes, he was wanting to see if Bisu was going to 12 nex, 2 gate range before 2nd pylon (10/15), whatever. I don't think he saw it coming after gate. Before gate, sure, bisu did it on match point vs baby... I just don't believe I've seen that out of the korean scene. I personally do things like that all the time, so it was a wonderful game for me.
No, that can't be. Flash's scout timing was BEFORE supply depot even finished, which would be unnecessarily early to scout for either of those two strategies. Considering that it was a 2p map with a fairly quick rush distance, Flash would've scouted after Barracks the very earliest (after gas is more probable) if he intended to scout for those strategies.
I don't feel like Flash was ready for it because Bisu got to dictate the game. Flash was forced to throw down a 2nd barracks because of the gas steal and manner pylon, and, even if he did it vs his teammate Violet one time (I was watching that game) I feel this one felt like it was way more forced than in the game vs Violet, where he knew he could steamroll his teammate.
Indications of this lie in his canceled bunker at bisu's proxy gate, or, earlier, where he rapidly tried to load all his marines into the bunker at his natural which ended up dying to ranged goons.
Yes, though I did not necessarily spell it out in my post, I knew that Bisu's concept for the ACE match was to control the flow of the game so that he could dictate the game with his timings, depriving Flash of his biggest advantage. I agree that your points indicated that, as Flash was clearly unfamiliar/uncomfortable enough to play unnecessarily safe with the bunker, and also not expecting that timing when Bisu pressured with Dragoons.
I chose to focus more on Flash's brilliance because I thought that not enough people had realized how fucking amazingly Flash prepared for this game and how insanely well he played. I agree with almost all of what you have had to say, and Bisu deserves just as much awe and recognition for his play.
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On April 10 2012 14:53 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 10:41 Cheeseburgered wrote:
what happened in game 7? did flash forget to build vultures or something? I think people are overplaying Flash's lack of vultures. Bisu started a replacement core while his first core was being shelled, and while it was being shelled and he could still build goons before it went down. So the actual time Bisu was without a core was actually very short. Probably less than one production cycle worth of time, so the from the number of zealots he had, you can see that he had already started to make zealots of his own volition, and continued to do so after his replacement core finished. Given that Flash had just killed almost all of Bisu's goons in the previous 2 engagements it was pretty reasonable to assume that Bisu would be making more goons at this stage, and therefore it was reasonable for Flash to make more tanks. I think the really telling part of this was that Bisu was already at something like 8 gates. This means that prior to Flash setting up behind his main, he had the more than enough econ to pump from 8 gates, since you need to add gates while pumping from the others. And after running his probes from main we know that he could still support those 8 gates (from the 4 gates a base rule). Whereas Flash had only 2 raxes and 3 facts, and had not been producing marines from his raxes non stop (seeing how few marines he had when Bisu countered), nor was he adding more facts or raxes, due to either insufficient econ or multitask. With only 3 facts against 8 gates, even vultures are not going to hold it. It didn't look like it to us, to Bisu, or possibly to Flash, but at this stage Bisu had actually effectively won. Flash chose to send 5 tanks to reinforce his setup behind Bisu's main, and at this stage the only way Bisu could actually lose, was if he went to attack that fortified setup behind his main and lose his army. Flash might have been able to defend if he instead had those 5 tanks in his nat, but for all he knew Bisu could have gone to clear the units behind his main, which leaves Bisu at 3 bases and 8 gates, and Flash at barely 2 bases and 3 facts, still a winning position for Bisu. So all in all, I don't think Flash making vultures would have helped him. He needed those tanks to make the push to make the game look as close as it was. He had time to pump at most 2 rounds of vultures instead of tanks to defend the mass zealots that Bisu had, if he had started pumping vults earlier, he could not have forced the tanks behind Bisu's main, leaving him at a sub 2 base economy vs a 3 base econ at 8 gates. So I think the success of the attack actually made the situation look alot closer than it actually was, Bisu was in fact really far ahead, just that noone knew it at the time.
I think many of us actually noticed (i did, to a good extent, and was really perplexed about the multitude of people going on and on about that Cyber Core bs). Of course, i was still worried as heck, cos Flash's push was terrifying.. Heck Flash himself is terrifying. But i knew for sure that the tank push won't be able to do more than stopping 1 base's mining, and kill maybe 2 Tech buildings. Bisu definitely was not in the definite losing position (similar Economy, much better production infrastructure).
Plus people were acting like those Vulture's research (Ion Thruster and Spider Mines ) are both instant and free. Flash had VERY little money, and he totally had to squeeze out all he could to threaten Bisu. Nevermind the fact that with so few Facts (3), making Vults means not making tanks, also that Flash doesn't KNOW Bisu's composition, and his educated guess was that Bisu made Goons (due to losing them all in the previous 2 clashes). It's clearly better in Flash's position to continue pumping tanks, and make use of his multiple Barracks that he had to build early game to spend minerals.
As ArvickHero said, Flash's strategy was really clever and executed immaculately. Bisu just happend to, through preparation or otherwise, counter it perfectly. Watching the VoD again and paying close attention to the resource tab, Flash's resources were always VERY low. He definitely never slip in macro at all. His Economy wasn't too hot though, that likely was why.
On April 10 2012 08:33 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
I don't get the people saying that Flash helped Bisu by sniping the Cybernetics Core. The first Citadel of Adun wasn't even complete by the time Flash started besieging the Cybernetics Core, and yet Bisu immediately rebuilt a second Citadel of Adun at his natural. This was his priority, not rebuilding his Cybernetics Core (which he would do much later). It's quite evident that the Speed Zealot attack was what he had planned well before Flash destroyed his Cybernetics Core, and it was a great decision at that since his early game shenanigans had slowed down Flash's access to gas and forced the production of a lot of Marines, inducing him into a Tank/Marine composition.
And besides, Flash probably assumed that Bisu would rebuild the single most important tech structure in the Protoss infrastructure. I mean, aside from hindsight, what possible reasoning would lead you to the conclusion that he wouldn't?
I agree w this, it was pretty telling that Bisu aimed for that Speedlot counter. Plus, again, his production was so much better than Flash. He could easily pump Goons mixed w Zeals and still win the game should Flash (somehow, im not saying it was possible) pump enough Unit to hold that initial 2 Conga Train.
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I kind of agree with you. Bisu usually does 1 of 3 things when something is on the line in PvT, and it's not 1 gate expo. He will do some 2 gate thing, like I said before, either 10/15 + range before 2nd pylon... faking that, like where he gets nexus ~20 off of 2 gates with MAYBE 1 goon, and range coming before goon, 12 nexus (duh, his teammate is best), or gas steal off of like his 5th-6th probe.
This is the first time I've seen Bisu do this exact 1 gate midmap timing on a gas steal. I don't see how he could be prepared for the timing at all, is all I'm saying. It's just a minor variation that I don't see how you prepare for. I feel like Flash was probably prepared more for something like a 1 gate gassteal where Bisu had his gate closer to his base, or closer to Flash's. The positioning of it being in Flash's face, and scouting path, was definitely intentional. Bisu wanted him to scout it.
Flash's early scout could merely be explained from, "I'm flash, I want a macro game, I'm not going to lose to some cheese"
but, hey, that was some fine gouda... aged, too.
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On April 10 2012 14:47 Bill Murray wrote:
I know people would be like "well, don't you need an academy to scan for DTs?" but did he make any dts? nope. You say that "Bisu wasted 100 minerals taking his gas" First off, he did it twice. Second off, if you think trapping 5 scvs in a manner pylon doesn't hinder a Terran's economy, well, no, it probably doesn't, because SCVs mine slower anyways! lol jk! in all honesty, though, I feel like it would really hurt the economy minimally, as in give Kim Taek Yong a minor economic edge, but when you add in the acknowledgment factor of "oh, I have 5 scvs I have to manually drag, click, hit A, or rub" it favors the aggressor in the scenario. To further the point, though, with the academy, medic, extra marines, cancelled bunker, bunker (probably needed, so possibly disclude that) I feel like Flash wasted minerals.
Manner pylons significantly impact the economy even when there is nothing trapped, because workers will glitch out and go around to the other side of the mineral line, it also makes it much easier to kill scvs because of this. Bisu was trapping 3-4 scv's at a time and Flash also attacked the pylon with 2 extra outside scvs, that's a huge amount of mining time lost.
Flash was also floating quite a lot more than usual during this time and not building scvs, while Bisu was maintaining perfect worker production. When the level of play is such that they are using optimal building placement to enhance econ, hell Bisu micro's already mining workers to different patches mid-game for better econ, you can imagine how much of a difference this made to the rest of the game.
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what I mean to say is that when he sent his probe out at 6.5/7 it was a little delayed in comparison to when he would normally do it, at like 5.25, which was when he did it vs baby on MP. The gateway position was only to try and get a few scv kills, and to force a marine composition, allowing for an easier and quicker reaver switch in comparison to needing an early obs
I'm going to go rewatch, I really want to get to the bottom of what exactly happened to get the variation in supply.
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On April 10 2012 15:48 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:47 Bill Murray wrote:
I know people would be like "well, don't you need an academy to scan for DTs?" but did he make any dts? nope. You say that "Bisu wasted 100 minerals taking his gas" First off, he did it twice. Second off, if you think trapping 5 scvs in a manner pylon doesn't hinder a Terran's economy, well, no, it probably doesn't, because SCVs mine slower anyways! lol jk! in all honesty, though, I feel like it would really hurt the economy minimally, as in give Kim Taek Yong a minor economic edge, but when you add in the acknowledgment factor of "oh, I have 5 scvs I have to manually drag, click, hit A, or rub" it favors the aggressor in the scenario. To further the point, though, with the academy, medic, extra marines, cancelled bunker, bunker (probably needed, so possibly disclude that) I feel like Flash wasted minerals.
Manner pylons significantly impact the economy even when there is nothing trapped, because workers will glitch out and go around to the other side of the mineral line, it also makes it much easier to kill scvs because of this. Bisu was trapping 3-4 scv's at a time and Flash also attacked the pylon with 2 extra outside scvs, that's a huge amount of mining time lost. Flash was also floating quite a lot more than usual during this time and not building scvs, while Bisu was maintaining perfect worker production. When the level of play is such that they are using optimal building placement to enhance econ, hell Bisu micro's already mining workers to different patches mid-game for better econ, you can imagine how much of a difference this made to the rest of the game.
yeah, i understand, but people usually rub their scvs out of there, and send them back to mining.
Flash does not do this. He is aggressive in that he attacks the pylon directly, to the point where bisu even had to cancel one before it finished. His manner pylons were amazing.
The problem is, during the time, the supply was like 44-42
that is why I'm going to go look to see how we got a 20 supply gap
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Play along with me
Sorry to triple post, mods, but I want to get this out
I've got mine on 11 minutes, and a handful of seconds.
The supply is 50 for Bisu, 45 for Flash. Flash has just damaged one of Bisu's 2 dragoons that are poking, has his 2nd factory coming, and is mildly behind from the harass. It is anyones game.
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On April 10 2012 15:40 Bill Murray wrote:
I kind of agree with you. Bisu usually does 1 of 3 things when something is on the line in PvT, and it's not 1 gate expo. He will do some 2 gate thing, like I said before, either 10/15 + range before 2nd pylon... faking that, like where he gets nexus ~20 off of 2 gates with MAYBE 1 goon, and range coming before goon, 12 nexus (duh, his teammate is best), or gas steal off of like his 5th-6th probe.
This is the first time I've seen Bisu do this exact 1 gate midmap timing on a gas steal. I don't see how he could be prepared for the timing at all, is all I'm saying. It's just a minor variation that I don't see how you prepare for. I feel like Flash was probably prepared more for something like a 1 gate gassteal where Bisu had his gate closer to his base, or closer to Flash's. The positioning of it being in Flash's face, and scouting path, was definitely intentional. Bisu wanted him to scout it.
Flash's early scout could merely be explained from, "I'm flash, I want a macro game, I'm not going to lose to some cheese"
but, hey, that was some fine gouda... aged, too.
I love how everyone claimed Flash's maphacks, when clearly Bisu did it in the most blatant in your face way possible, it requires balls of steel to do that on the final game  I agree with the early scv scout timing was that he was probably expecting cheese, unlikely but maybe it was so obvious that he thought it might have been a fake
Although have you forgotten when Bisu did a very similar build in the Winners League Final but expanded right off the 1 gate zealot pressure. I have a feeling Flash was expecting Bisu to do the exact same, but instead Bisu slammed down 2 more gateways before cyb. Metagame yo!
EDIT: Also in the past Bisu often expanded after a gas steal like on Monte Cristo. All signs pointed to a similar build used when Bisu beat Flash in the Winners League final.
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On April 10 2012 15:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:40 Bill Murray wrote:
I kind of agree with you. Bisu usually does 1 of 3 things when something is on the line in PvT, and it's not 1 gate expo. He will do some 2 gate thing, like I said before, either 10/15 + range before 2nd pylon... faking that, like where he gets nexus ~20 off of 2 gates with MAYBE 1 goon, and range coming before goon, 12 nexus (duh, his teammate is best), or gas steal off of like his 5th-6th probe.
This is the first time I've seen Bisu do this exact 1 gate midmap timing on a gas steal. I don't see how he could be prepared for the timing at all, is all I'm saying. It's just a minor variation that I don't see how you prepare for. I feel like Flash was probably prepared more for something like a 1 gate gassteal where Bisu had his gate closer to his base, or closer to Flash's. The positioning of it being in Flash's face, and scouting path, was definitely intentional. Bisu wanted him to scout it.
Flash's early scout could merely be explained from, "I'm flash, I want a macro game, I'm not going to lose to some cheese"
but, hey, that was some fine gouda... aged, too. I love how everyone claimed Flash's maphacks, when clearly Bisu did it in the most blatant in your face way possible, it requires balls of steel to do that on the final game I agree with the early scv scout timing was that he was probably expecting cheese, unlikely but maybe it was so obvious that he thought it might have been a fake Although have you forgotten when Bisu did a very similar build in the Winners League Final but expanded right off the 1 gate zealot pressure. I have a feeling Flash was expecting Bisu to do the exact same, but instead Bisu slammed down 2 more gateways before cyb. Metagame yo!
I think there is a difference between the maps since Aztec was a 3-player map and C.R. was a 2-player map and 2-player maps are really prone to cheese so I think the cheese was 90% expected.
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The extraneous buildings. Needed? Not so much. When Flash takes the time to add academy, 2 comsat, engineering bay, and a few more marines, he drops from being 5 supply down to it being more like 20 when Bisu's 3rd starts pumping.
His push on the backside was actually asinine, in retrospect. It had no opportunity to hinder the production, to chokepoint the production after it came out, or to really hurt the economy whatsoever. The base was very nearly mined out, with only about 8 dragoons left of resources remaining.
it seemed scary, and it is most definitely a game for the record books, but I would imagine a push towards the 3rd of Bisu, as Bisu made too many pylons (was at 70/123 I believe), and may have wasted a bit of money (shield battery, anyone? lol), would have been a better option.
On April 10 2012 15:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:40 Bill Murray wrote:
I kind of agree with you. Bisu usually does 1 of 3 things when something is on the line in PvT, and it's not 1 gate expo. He will do some 2 gate thing, like I said before, either 10/15 + range before 2nd pylon... faking that, like where he gets nexus ~20 off of 2 gates with MAYBE 1 goon, and range coming before goon, 12 nexus (duh, his teammate is best), or gas steal off of like his 5th-6th probe.
This is the first time I've seen Bisu do this exact 1 gate midmap timing on a gas steal. I don't see how he could be prepared for the timing at all, is all I'm saying. It's just a minor variation that I don't see how you prepare for. I feel like Flash was probably prepared more for something like a 1 gate gassteal where Bisu had his gate closer to his base, or closer to Flash's. The positioning of it being in Flash's face, and scouting path, was definitely intentional. Bisu wanted him to scout it.
Flash's early scout could merely be explained from, "I'm flash, I want a macro game, I'm not going to lose to some cheese"
but, hey, that was some fine gouda... aged, too. I love how everyone claimed Flash's maphacks, when clearly Bisu did it in the most blatant in your face way possible, it requires balls of steel to do that on the final game I agree with the early scv scout timing was that he was probably expecting cheese, unlikely but maybe it was so obvious that he thought it might have been a fake Although have you forgotten when Bisu did a very similar build in the Winners League Final but expanded right off the 1 gate zealot pressure. I have a feeling Flash was expecting Bisu to do the exact same, but instead Bisu slammed down 2 more gateways before cyb. Metagame yo!
Are you talking about on Aztec? Bisu adding those 2 gates was most def a rxn to the 2nd rax. He was probably like "Hell Yeah", too. He definitely wanted it scouted. He wanted to force that 2nd barracks, to throw in those zealot flanks, and to harass Flash's economy, which was the trend. Throw him off of his game.
In terms of Flash's scouting, I am not quite sure he wasn't going for a barracks out mid map as well. That pretty much hard counters a 12 nexus, and Bisu has been known to 12 nex, and given Flash's tendency to play a macro style, this would have netted Flash a very easy build order win. When Flash saw it, if he wasn't going to offensively barracks, he may not have even been scouting for cheese. It's a finals, and it's a 2 player map, so an early scout isn't a bad investment whatsoever, especially in an ace match of that calibre, on the biggest stage, with a ton of pride on the line.
Bisu's build was pristine not only in execution, flanking, and micro (even if he had some mistakes with wasting dragoons), but in that it was so "in your face" that he didn't really need to be constantly scouting - his aggression scouted for him. I honestly love a 3 gate 1 base play to harass a Terran that you've gas stolen, and with range, you can really break them off of that 400 investment. If they don't 2 rax, and you switch to 3 gate ranged goons, they simply die. If they do what Flash did, you force a bunker before siege tech. You have a choice of going up to 3 bases, like Bisu did, or breaking their neck with shuttle play and a 2 base all in a-la economic bulldog.
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On April 10 2012 15:52 Bill Murray wrote:
Play along with me
Sorry to triple post, mods, but I want to get this out
I've got mine on 11 minutes, and a handful of seconds.
The supply is 50 for Bisu, 45 for Flash. Flash has just damaged one of Bisu's 2 dragoons that are poking, has his 2nd factory coming, and is mildly behind from the harass. It is anyones game.
I'm not sure the supply count will provide much information, marines are 1 supply, zealots are 2 supply, also Flash was pumping out of 2 rax and possibly cutting scvs to get the expansion up, while Bisu was still pumping from 1 gate and then put down 2 more I think before expanding. Pretty sure Bisu came out with a bigger worker advantage initially, while Flash might have caught up a bit with the earlier expo. Then Bisu would have slightly cut production while doing a Best style throw down many gates before pump, right at the timing where Flash pushed out. Which is why Bisu had such a paltry army to defend against it, but after which Bisu started to rocket ahead once the gates warped in.
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10387 Posts
On April 10 2012 15:40 Bill Murray wrote:
I kind of agree with you. Bisu usually does 1 of 3 things when something is on the line in PvT, and it's not 1 gate expo. He will do some 2 gate thing, like I said before, either 10/15 + range before 2nd pylon... faking that, like where he gets nexus ~20 off of 2 gates with MAYBE 1 goon, and range coming before goon, 12 nexus (duh, his teammate is best), or gas steal off of like his 5th-6th probe.
This is the first time I've seen Bisu do this exact 1 gate midmap timing on a gas steal. I don't see how he could be prepared for the timing at all, is all I'm saying. It's just a minor variation that I don't see how you prepare for. I feel like Flash was probably prepared more for something like a 1 gate gassteal where Bisu had his gate closer to his base, or closer to Flash's. The positioning of it being in Flash's face, and scouting path, was definitely intentional. Bisu wanted him to scout it.
Flash's early scout could merely be explained from, "I'm flash, I want a macro game, I'm not going to lose to some cheese"
but, hey, that was some fine gouda... aged, too.
I'm sorry, but this post is wrong in many aspects. The 2gate range fast nexus build was a one time thing Bisu never did again afterwards, and Bisu has used 12nex and gas steal rather sparingly in his past 1-2 years of PvT. If anything, Bisu's most common build is to 1gate core and expo after anywhere between 1-3 Dragoons. If anything, when things are on the line and Bisu has had time to prepare, it's more likely that Bisu would do something tricky than standard in PvT.
Again, Flash saw the probe coming. He had more than enough time to block the gas rush, but he chose not to. Flash's early scout was to scout for that early proxy gate, but not because he wanted to go for a macro game. If he wanted to go for the macro game, he would've prevented the gas rush.
On April 10 2012 15:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Although have you forgotten when Bisu did a very similar build in the Winners League Final but expanded right off the 1 gate zealot pressure. I have a feeling Flash was expecting Bisu to do the exact same, but instead Bisu slammed down 2 more gateways before cyb. Metagame yo!
That situation was different. Flash had already expoed, and only had 1 rax of marines (which were constantly being killed). This game Flash had 2 rax and very few marine losses. No progamer would attempt to expo off of 1gate in that situation.
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Sorry if I come in between all of this theorycrafting, but I must say that when I viewed the VODs after I saw the score, my heart still beat like crazy. I am more of a KT fan than a SKT fan, but after today, I am a Bisu fan. The fact that he lost in the OSL qualifiers and the managed to pull out a miraculous win like this when everything for him is on the line was beautiful.
Thank you, Bisu, thank you PL. No one has made my heart race quite like you.
<3
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On April 10 2012 16:02 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 10 2012 15:40 Bill Murray wrote:
I kind of agree with you. Bisu usually does 1 of 3 things when something is on the line in PvT, and it's not 1 gate expo. He will do some 2 gate thing, like I said before, either 10/15 + range before 2nd pylon... faking that, like where he gets nexus ~20 off of 2 gates with MAYBE 1 goon, and range coming before goon, 12 nexus (duh, his teammate is best), or gas steal off of like his 5th-6th probe.
This is the first time I've seen Bisu do this exact 1 gate midmap timing on a gas steal. I don't see how he could be prepared for the timing at all, is all I'm saying. It's just a minor variation that I don't see how you prepare for. I feel like Flash was probably prepared more for something like a 1 gate gassteal where Bisu had his gate closer to his base, or closer to Flash's. The positioning of it being in Flash's face, and scouting path, was definitely intentional. Bisu wanted him to scout it.
Flash's early scout could merely be explained from, "I'm flash, I want a macro game, I'm not going to lose to some cheese"
but, hey, that was some fine gouda... aged, too. I love how everyone claimed Flash's maphacks, when clearly Bisu did it in the most blatant in your face way possible, it requires balls of steel to do that on the final game I agree with the early scv scout timing was that he was probably expecting cheese, unlikely but maybe it was so obvious that he thought it might have been a fake Although have you forgotten when Bisu did a very similar build in the Winners League Final but expanded right off the 1 gate zealot pressure. I have a feeling Flash was expecting Bisu to do the exact same, but instead Bisu slammed down 2 more gateways before cyb. Metagame yo! I think there is a difference between the maps since Aztec was a 3-player map and C.R. was a 2-player map and 2-player maps are really prone to cheese so I think the cheese was 90% expected.
i take all the time to hit two points you raise in like one line... bravo lol
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On April 10 2012 16:11 KvltMan wrote:
Sorry if I come in between all of this theorycrafting, but I must say that when I viewed the VODs after I saw the score, my heart still beat like crazy. I am more of a KT fan than a SKT fan, but after today, I am a Bisu fan. The fact that he lost in the OSL qualifiers and the managed to pull out a miraculous win like this when everything for him is on the line was beautiful.
Thank you, Bisu, thank you PL. No one has made my heart race quite like you.
<3
what do you think about his comeback vs wooki?
wook was playing some serious mindgames with that hidden gateway lol
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On April 10 2012 16:12 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 16:11 KvltMan wrote:
Sorry if I come in between all of this theorycrafting, but I must say that when I viewed the VODs after I saw the score, my heart still beat like crazy. I am more of a KT fan than a SKT fan, but after today, I am a Bisu fan. The fact that he lost in the OSL qualifiers and the managed to pull out a miraculous win like this when everything for him is on the line was beautiful.
Thank you, Bisu, thank you PL. No one has made my heart race quite like you.
<3 what do you think about his comeback vs wooki? wook was playing some serious mindgames with that hidden gateway lol
No hidden gateway can escape Bisu's sexy-sense. Overall, so impressed with SKT and Bisu in particular since he didn't look all too hot in playoffs. :D
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On April 10 2012 16:09 Bill Murray wrote:
His push on the backside was actually asinine, in retrospect. It had no opportunity to hinder the production, to chokepoint the production after it came out, or to really hurt the economy whatsoever. The base was very nearly mined out, with only about 8 dragoons left of resources remaining.
Flash made a dropship so I think the attack on the back was not only to stop mining but to also provide cover fire for an elevator. He was definitely not in a position where he could sit back and relax, he had to do as much damage as possible or risk the game getting dragged out and die to the imbalance of the map.
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On April 10 2012 16:09 Bill Murray wrote:The extraneous buildings. Needed? Not so much. When Flash takes the time to add academy, 2 comsat, engineering bay, and a few more marines, he drops from being 5 supply down to it being more like 20 when Bisu's 3rd starts pumping. His push on the backside was actually asinine, in retrospect. It had no opportunity to hinder the production, to chokepoint the production after it came out, or to really hurt the economy whatsoever. The base was very nearly mined out, with only about 8 dragoons left of resources remaining. it seemed scary, and it is most definitely a game for the record books, but I would imagine a push towards the 3rd of Bisu, as Bisu made too many pylons (was at 70/123 I believe), and may have wasted a bit of money (shield battery, anyone? lol), would have been a better option. Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On April 10 2012 15:40 Bill Murray wrote:
I kind of agree with you. Bisu usually does 1 of 3 things when something is on the line in PvT, and it's not 1 gate expo. He will do some 2 gate thing, like I said before, either 10/15 + range before 2nd pylon... faking that, like where he gets nexus ~20 off of 2 gates with MAYBE 1 goon, and range coming before goon, 12 nexus (duh, his teammate is best), or gas steal off of like his 5th-6th probe.
This is the first time I've seen Bisu do this exact 1 gate midmap timing on a gas steal. I don't see how he could be prepared for the timing at all, is all I'm saying. It's just a minor variation that I don't see how you prepare for. I feel like Flash was probably prepared more for something like a 1 gate gassteal where Bisu had his gate closer to his base, or closer to Flash's. The positioning of it being in Flash's face, and scouting path, was definitely intentional. Bisu wanted him to scout it.
Flash's early scout could merely be explained from, "I'm flash, I want a macro game, I'm not going to lose to some cheese"
but, hey, that was some fine gouda... aged, too. I love how everyone claimed Flash's maphacks, when clearly Bisu did it in the most blatant in your face way possible, it requires balls of steel to do that on the final game I agree with the early scv scout timing was that he was probably expecting cheese, unlikely but maybe it was so obvious that he thought it might have been a fake Although have you forgotten when Bisu did a very similar build in the Winners League Final but expanded right off the 1 gate zealot pressure. I have a feeling Flash was expecting Bisu to do the exact same, but instead Bisu slammed down 2 more gateways before cyb. Metagame yo! Are you talking about on Aztec? Bisu adding those 2 gates was most def a rxn to the 2nd rax. He was probably like "Hell Yeah", too. He definitely wanted it scouted. He wanted to force that 2nd barracks, to throw in those zealot flanks, and to harass Flash's economy, which was the trend. Throw him off of his game. In terms of Flash's scouting, I am not quite sure he wasn't going for a barracks out mid map as well. That pretty much hard counters a 12 nexus, and Bisu has been known to 12 nex, and given Flash's tendency to play a macro style, this would have netted Flash a very easy build order win. When Flash saw it, if he wasn't going to offensively barracks, he may not have even been scouting for cheese. It's a finals, and it's a 2 player map, so an early scout isn't a bad investment whatsoever, especially in an ace match of that calibre, on the biggest stage, with a ton of pride on the line. Bisu's build was pristine not only in execution, flanking, and micro (even if he had some mistakes with wasting dragoons), but in that it was so "in your face" that he didn't really need to be constantly scouting - his aggression scouted for him. I honestly love a 3 gate 1 base play to harass a Terran that you've gas stolen, and with range, you can really break them off of that 400 investment. If they don't 2 rax, and you switch to 3 gate ranged goons, they simply die. If they do what Flash did, you force a bunker before siege tech. You have a choice of going up to 3 bases, like Bisu did, or breaking their neck with shuttle play and a 2 base all in a-la economic bulldog.
I was thinking the same thing about the middle rax, but crossed out that idea when I realised that Flash always does an 8 rax if he is going to do something like that. A proxy eco rax makes no sense, because it would die to anything but a 12 nexus, however an 8 rax bunker rush on reverse ramp can beat a lot more builds like 1 gate tech. However with the early scout he can safely bunker rush off a late rax at nat if he scouts 12 nexus..
I also agree that the 2nd gate was a reaction to the 2nd rax, but to be fair, I think he was gonna go 1 base (possibly reaver) when he knew that Flash wasn't going to bother with re-taking the gas. I meant more on Flash's end, that his timing was based on the pattern of Bisu going heavy aggression with probe/zealots into very fast expo. Obviously if Bisu had done that or any 1 gate tech, he would have lost. His transition into going 3 gate zealots no cyb into expo was an amazingly creative spontaneous decision.
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You know, Fantasy and Bisu's win against Flash had a similar pattern.
1) Early game advantage
2) Flash squeezes everything he can and attempts some mind-blowing tactic and gives the impression of a comeback
3) No matter how good flash is, economy is important and Flash just can't come back from such a deficit.1
Also, are we just throwing away the possibility that Flash was sending that first SCV, not to scout a center gate, but to build his own forward rax? Maybe to bunker down a 12 nex or something? Or just simply bunker rush the main..
Lastly, can anyone explain why Bisu rebuilt his citadel? Legs were done upgrading way before the citadel in his main was destroyed and he was floating like 1000 gas so an archive could have definitely been built....
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On April 10 2012 16:44 rslee wrote:
You know, Fantasy and Bisu's win against Flash had a similar pattern.
1) Early game advantage
2) Flash squeezes everything he can and attempts some mind-blowing tactic and gives the impression of a comeback
3) No matter how good flash is, economy is important and Flash just can't come back from such a deficit.1
Also, are we just throwing away the possibility that Flash was sending that first SCV, not to scout a center gate, but to build his own forward rax? Maybe to bunker down a 12 nex or something? Or just simply bunker rush the main..
Lastly, can anyone explain why Bisu rebuilt his citadel? Legs were done upgrading way before the citadel in his main was destroyed and he was floating like 1000 gas so an archive could have definitely been built....
I thought so too. Considering the size of the map and from the recent TvP games he played, 7 proxy rax would have been his build for that game. Cheesy bastard >.<
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EPT
