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On April 10 2012 16:44 rslee wrote:
You know, Fantasy and Bisu's win against Flash had a similar pattern.
1) Early game advantage
2) Flash squeezes everything he can and attempts some mind-blowing tactic and gives the impression of a comeback
3) No matter how good flash is, economy is important and Flash just can't come back from such a deficit.1
Also, are we just throwing away the possibility that Flash was sending that first SCV, not to scout a center gate, but to build his own forward rax? Maybe to bunker down a 12 nex or something? Or just simply bunker rush the main..
Lastly, can anyone explain why Bisu rebuilt his citadel? Legs were done upgrading way before the citadel in his main was destroyed and he was floating like 1000 gas so an archive could have definitely been built....
Regarding Citadel, Bisu rebuilt it the very moment he was aware of Flash's attack on the backdoor. He immediately rebuilt Citadel at his natural, which led me (and some others) to believe that he fully intended a Speed Zeals attack at the end, which worked beautifully.
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9070 Posts
Ppl call Bisu`s play cheesy but looking at his most dominant period back in 08-09 you can see his pvt was highlighted by relentless early game aggression. By that time he would always open with proxy gates on maps like Destination and follow it with solid build behind. Terrans knew it was coming but still were unable to deny Bisus aggression, his micromanagement with just a handfull of basic units and the ability to follow up behind with fast enough tech and expo is simply incredible.
Back then Bisu was undefeated on Destination in like 10 games vs terran, including a couple of games vs flash. This style only works on specifc maps, on huge maps Bisu plays incredibly stale but his strengh is definitely in his early game relentless aggression and multitasking. I'm glad he resolved back to this style in the ace vs Flash. Its just incredible to watch him considering how fragile this style is how badly he is going to fail if he is not microing perfectly or is not fast enough with his hands.
Like Boxer once said "its cheese only when you dont know its coming". Bisu never tried to hide his intentions.
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I am quite the SC2 fan and I really looked forward to IPL and GSTL finals in the same fucking weekend! The big question was, which is going to be more epic? Now that I have had time to reflect upon it there is no doubt in my mind: Neither, it was the Pro League finals and none of the SC2 events even came close.
It was just magical and much <3 to Sayle for providing english cast for those of us who is less familair with BW.
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I just want to point one thing out: Flash fans have no room to complain about "cheese" and cheap tactics after the way Flash has been playing this season, especially against Protoss. Remember that game against Stork with the cliff drop? That game against BeSt with the bunker rush push? (I'm not saying anyone is complaining, at least atm - in fact I'm impressed most of the discussion is more analysis.)
Sure, Flash does get cheesed a lot himself: it's the peril of being the best and normally he handles it just fine. Even in this game, if he puts up the wall faster and/or gets vultures out (even first) instead of continually pumping tanks we're looking at a different game.
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On April 10 2012 19:16 VGhost wrote:
I just want to point one thing out: Flash fans have no room to complain about "cheese" and cheap tactics after the way Flash has been playing this season, especially against Protoss. Remember that game against Stork with the cliff drop? That game against BeSt with the bunker rush push? (I'm not saying anyone is complaining, at least atm - in fact I'm impressed most of the discussion is more analysis.)
Sure, Flash does get cheesed a lot himself: it's the peril of being the best and normally he handles it just fine. Even in this game, if he puts up the wall faster and/or gets vultures out (even first) instead of continually pumping tanks we're looking at a different game.
I am not sure how I can validate that the game will turn out differently but from a player perspective when you are in attack mode you will tend to be in macro mode and forgo all the fear of being back stab . In the end, bisu just say screw this I am going to try and attack with those 2 group of zealot instead of defending and gamble that flash will not be ready for this and it turns out to be a good decision.
I can't fault flash for not being prepared for that counter attack not when you are in that state of mind .
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It's hardly even possible for Flash at that point though.
Flash had 3 Factories worth of production (and 2 Barracks).
Bisu had 8 Gates worth of production, and a Robotics (no need for Obs due to lack of Vults, so he can make Reavers).
I don't think it was possible at all for Flash to hold at that point in time. Let's say he used those tanks to defend, Bisu could have attacked that position behind his base, resulting in a situation of Bisu w decent Tech (Reaver + Zeal Speed), production (8 Gates) and Eco (3 bases) vs Flash's low Eco (sub 2 base), low production (3 Facts) and low tech (no Armory, no Vults upgrades).
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Watching the VOD again Bisu goes like 4 gate -> 3rd -> robo reaver -> obs. That's one hell of an econ advantage vs flash having to constantly use scv's to fight the zealots and kill the assimilator. Flash also couldn't just sit and wait for more rines like on a regular ramped map, he had to constantly push out for fear of a goon high ground contain (coupled with the gas steal it would've been a death sentence). The proxy + gas steal just dictated the course of the game, mines weren't coming for ages because Flash was in trouble of simply dying to mass goon. Siege + tanks were the only way he was going to hold and bisu knew this so skipped robo + obs. Bisu also knew that he had to use the 2 rax + marines for something and went straight reaver to shut down the bio follow-up. The sheer amount of stuff bisu had off 3 base vs 3 factories + tank losses made it impossible for flash to do any miracle hold. Even if he held with a wall, vults and scv's he's still dead.
I wouldn't call the proxy a cheese as the scouting made little difference. I think of it more as map abuse and I can see why skt1 picked the map. Bisu probably raped fantasy 100+ times on it doing this.
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United Kingdom1707 Posts
I couldn't help but be impressed by Bisu's play. It was a fantastic finish to a fantastic final. Flash was strong throughout the day as well, but SKT players just brought their A-game. Apart from BeSt. BeSt, wtf was that? ^^
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Japan11286 Posts
Yeah, Flash doesn't have the resources and the right reasons to make vultures. If you examine the VOD, he had 3 factories macroing only tanks because he needs to keep up with 3 base 8 gates of Bisu. When macroing a salvo of tanks his resources goes down to near 0 and even then Bisu has more stuff.
I still can't get over this game, wtf.
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How many times have you guys watched the Final's Ace Match?
Watched it like 5 times already
1.)Focused on the action during Early game
2.)Focused on how Bisu was controlling his units
3.)Focused on how Flash was controlling his units
4.)Focused on the Push towards the backyard temple and the core and citadel destruction and reconstruction time and the attack.
5.)Focused on the minimap while watching the mid-game to GG
Poll: How many times you've watched the Ace Match?I'm a Bisu fan, what would you expect? 6++ (20) 33% 2 (15) 25% 1 (12) 20% 3 (5) 8% 4 (3) 5% 5 (3) 5% 6+ (2) 3% 6 (0) 0% 60 total votes Your vote: How many times you've watched the Ace Match? (Vote): 1
(Vote): 2
(Vote): 3
(Vote): 4
(Vote): 5
(Vote): 6
(Vote): 6+
(Vote): I'm a Bisu fan, what would you expect? 6++
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To be honest fantasy played really well against flash that was a good game despite me being kt fan . I enjoyed fantasy much more superior tactics and strategy against flash . Although I think flash wasn't flash that day, condition problem maybe ?
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I'm impressed why this is not yet in the main page .....
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On April 10 2012 22:02 Sawamura wrote:
To be honest fantasy played really well against flash that was a good game despite me being kt fan . I enjoyed fantasy much more superior tactics and strategy against flash . Although I think flash wasn't flash that day, condition problem maybe ?
It's probably the fact that he lost to two players who played better.
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Awww yeah. Was finally able to watch the games.
Sick.
About to go rewatch that ace match
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In your ****ing face!
BISUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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I watched with sayle commentary, nuke's and korean xD
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On April 10 2012 23:42 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 22:02 Sawamura wrote:
To be honest fantasy played really well against flash that was a good game despite me being kt fan . I enjoyed fantasy much more superior tactics and strategy against flash . Although I think flash wasn't flash that day, condition problem maybe ? It's probably the fact that he lost to two players who played better.
Fantasy played better, bisu played the map
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Hmm, I haven't watched and played BW in so long so more or less I can be wrong on the following:
1. I think Flash had the option not to push when he did. I doubt he saw Bisu's 3rd that's up and running for quite some time and he could have opted to turtle out. I think he was thinking that Bisu just spent a whole lot of resources harassing him early game and he should have run out of fuel and his backdoor attack should have had Bisu sitting on 1 base. Had he known Bisu had a 3rd base, then he wouldn't have pushed out like that (esp Bisu started to mass gateways for a counter).
2. Flash could have used a barracks positioned below his bunker. His sim city in the early part of the harass was what kept him alive (aside from his marine micro). I think supply depo and bunker have same sizes (ok I know they're both 2x3 but sometimes if you do it wrong zealots can pass through) and that could have given the zealots a harder time walking into the natural and eventually the ramp. I think it could have gone a long way even without vultures.
3. About the vultures, I think Flash wanted to go for the throat that's why he massed tanks, not knowing Bisu had a 3rd base and was poised to counter attack anytime. But as people pointed out earlier, any other Protoss would have lost (even if they had the 1 base and gateway advantage).
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On April 10 2012 19:16 VGhost wrote:
I just want to point one thing out: Flash fans have no room to complain about "cheese" and cheap tactics after the way Flash has been playing this season, especially against Protoss. Remember that game against Stork with the cliff drop? That game against BeSt with the bunker rush push? (I'm not saying anyone is complaining, at least atm - in fact I'm impressed most of the discussion is more analysis.)
Sure, Flash does get cheesed a lot himself: it's the peril of being the best and normally he handles it just fine. Even in this game, if he puts up the wall faster and/or gets vultures out (even first) instead of continually pumping tanks we're looking at a different game.
If he got vultures before tanks he would have died to 5 dragoons.
Bisu hit a really unexpected timing where Flash had vultures building but it was too late. It came down to the gas steal to delay his tech and the constant aggression forcing marines and tanks while getting the better economy.
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On April 10 2012 07:53 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 07:34 ToFu. wrote:On April 10 2012 06:11 Bisu-Fan wrote:On April 09 2012 22:31 JMave wrote:
i find proleague much more exciting than single leagues!! I think many people do... much more is on the line.. Not only personal glory but a year's worth of training and living with teh team and going through joys and hardships together. Jaedong did say that the PL finals were worth a whole lot more than the SL finals were to him. in the time i've followed bw, 3 years, i don't think oz has even made it past the regular season not in last or second to last place (excluding ace), much less the finals. maybe jd cares about PL finals because he doesn't get to go to them? ;P 2009, Oz made it to the finals against SKT, where Jaedong lost both his games to Fantasy, one of which being the Super Ace Match that determined everything. Jaedong had the PL victory within his reach after carrying his team like a monster all season, but in the end, just couldn't take it.
Just a minor correction. The 2009 final didn't go to Super Ace. Fantasy closed it out in the 2nd day Ace Match (Game 7). If he had lost there would've still been the Super Ace to go. I actually expected Bisu to come out for the 2nd day Ace because Medusa was his map. Then Jaedong vs Fantasy on Destination. Needless to say that Jaedong's chances of preparing for and winning both those games were slim, particularly because he picked Outside as his map.
Anyhow, I think Bisu seemed disappointed after that series, because he played great all season and then got outshone by fantasy in the last game.
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EPT
