EPTUnit Clumping in SC2 - Good or Bad - Page 8
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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insanet
Peru439 Posts
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
Also instead of having all units move in a straight line can't characteristics be added to units, like lings weaving a little as they run? They have these things when they arn't moving so why not when they are moving? | ||
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hypnossc2
144 Posts
On December 29 2011 15:17 jellyjello wrote: Each unit has a dotted circle under them. Those circles shouldn't be overlapping each other. That would make the clumping more realistic in visual way. this is good idea actually | ||
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bbm
United Kingdom1320 Posts
On December 29 2011 12:07 Leviance wrote: The first true SC2 bonjwa will actually train and be able to de-clump his units, everyone is gonna be shocked how one-sided battles will go in his favour. I don't get how even now, a year after release, the majority of the pros (Koreans included) only use 1-2 hotkeys for their armies. The best Zergs in the world still run all their lings clumped into a siege line instead of separating a few at the start to completely negate splash, Collossi attacks are still devastating because everyone is too lazy to split intelligently so that most of the splash is avoided, far too often a group of 4-6 templars get hit by ONE emp because lazy players (pros!!!) keep them so vulnerably together. The new UI allows for being more lazy, and the pros atm are showing just that: being lazy (on their level) I know it'd be fucking hard to constantly de-clump and so on, but that's exactly the work a wannabe-bonjwa has to do, if it wasn't hard as shit, everyone could do it. But right now everyone (GSL winners included) just keeps suffering from the 1-2 control group syndrome and the many disadvantages that come with it. frustrating to watch, but leaves hope for Jaedong, Flash etc. switching and showing the rest how it's done. it always amazes me how many people are perfectly content to let 50 zerglings and ten banelings roll into a siege line, where all 10 banes are together. I always try to at least split my banelings into two groups at either side before attacking to offer just a little bit of safety from the sieges | ||
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Lavi
Bangladesh793 Posts
BW has spaced out unit and the micro seems at least on par of sc2. Units not clumping as much does not mean aoe is less effective to the point that one no longer have to split (increase splash size of aoe etc).. ppl probably thinking of marine king vs banes in ZvT but not every matchup is like like that .. .how about vikings+bio ball versus colossus ball where its mostly a-moving viking and concave with stimmed bio, and colossus ball is mainly a move and forcefields... If units are spread out more then terran cant just a-move the viking into a pack of colossus which are conveniently hugging shoulder to shoulder right on top of each other, and you cant just press "t" and try to brute force it like most pvt is like now. You see the clumping promotes brute strength tactics like this, but if they were spread out you need more positioning of your units to get in the battle, which will require more actions not less. It will also prolong the actual battle... How many time have you seen people menace around with their little clump balls and when they engage, the battle and game is decided in 5-10 seconds. If SC2 is focused around engagements then max food army clashing should be epic and exciting, not anti-climatic instant battle... but clumping and powerful aoe unit makes it so battles actually ends faster as the game goes on in some matchups. And anyways a max food army should not look like a tiny compact blob.. it should look like a large epic army >.> | ||
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Lavi
Bangladesh793 Posts
On December 29 2011 19:47 bbm wrote: it always amazes me how many people are perfectly content to let 50 zerglings and ten banelings roll into a siege line, where all 10 banes are together. I always try to at least split my banelings into two groups at either side before attacking to offer just a little bit of safety from the sieges its because most of them only uses like 2 control group max for army... just splitting them of course will not work the pathfinding is so good that it will reclump them .. so best is like you said use different control groups to try minimize that way. Maybe you can also try that patrol move trick to spread out a little too if it works for banes. | ||
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Selendis
Australia509 Posts
On December 29 2011 11:54 PhiliBiRD wrote: its intended because it forces micro, otherwise the game would be even easier. and ive never heard much about this ever being an issue o_O. seems fine to me this | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49484 Posts
actually no, its the other way around. | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
Also remove clumping and the game will look alot worse and for some of us the looks are actually important. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On December 29 2011 12:14 Leviance wrote: It actually rises the skill cap, but nobody has noticed yet because no one is consistently trying to de-clump in battles and use more than 2 control groups for his army. If a death ball a-moved into a perfectly de-clumped and microed army the death ball would melt and leave you O_O when you "declump" and than attack again they will clump again(and again and again), notice how much of your forces are alive after 4 sec of fight to notice that its marginal gain. When you are referring to "perfectly de-clumped and microed army" i think you mean the things that Automaton bot was doing, sadly its not humanly possible. Pathing/auto-clumping kinda destroys the purpose of declumping, because microing your units decreases your DPS (every movements while in range). I would trade every AI buff SC2 got for "retarded" system from BW when micro mattered and was no deathball. I call it bullshit what most people say, D players micro their units in BW while masters in SC2 leave it as it is many times. Why? Because late-game fights in BW are few times longer than in SC2, there is always much more options to change the outcome. SC2 has only few moments of micro battles, and maybe few builds that relly heavily on micro, large battles are mostly microless besides storm dodging, baneling/marine, muta press "h" above thor or attack tank, fungal/FF/emp/storm thats the biggestr outcomes you can get from micro, clumping/declumping moving 5 marines there or there means nothing because they got auto-concave/auto- surrounds and forcefully changing that in most cases decrease dps. There are reasons people arent doing something after 1.5 y after release if they had no problems doing that in BW. If you would decrease dps of all units by 50% you would notice more micro same as in bw. Cant wait when people start playing like this!: (facepalm) | ||
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zimms
Austria561 Posts
On December 29 2011 20:20 papaz wrote: If splash damage is an issue Blizzard will nerf splash damage (which they've already done). They don't need to remove clumping. Also remove clumping and the game will look alot worse and for some of us the looks are actually important. What? Take a look at these pictures: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223889 Do you really think blobs look better? | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4119 Posts
On December 29 2011 19:26 insanet wrote: it looks like shit, why is so hard to understand that? This. Lets disregard balance and what not for a moment. Clumping units are an eyesore. | ||
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freestalker
469 Posts
groups of banelings/templars/stuff getting hit happens often because units just don't hold formation. you separate your units but if you attack move them somewhere they clump up again in a second or two because that's just the shortest path. Holding of formation would be awesome. Also same units clump together because they have same speed. (except when you have a few of them in front since they can't catch up). You could magicbox units in BW to hold formation. You can't do that here really (only thing wher you can see it is mutas) 2) the problem with clumping is many units get to shoot at the target at same time. like this you can have what.. 5-6 lines of marines attacking same target? or even more? But I guess you get the point. If they weren't clumping so much, you'd have to spread them more so you cover bigger surface around the target. Clumping is also the reason why AoE attacks/spells had their effect area reduced. If they decrease clumping, the AoE radius can be increased again. | ||
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IGotPlayguuu
Italy660 Posts
During the big engagements it's pretty obvious who will win the battle: who has the biggest ball and the better concave. IMHO declumping isn't rewarded enough, because it makes the ball smaller and less "surface efficient" | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On December 29 2011 21:07 Bleak wrote: It is a symptom of the problem of the decade in terms of video games. In order to sell the game even to the worst possible gamer, developers make every compromise they can with the gameplay. Luckily deus ex human revolution doesn't suffer such compromisation. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
I think a better approach, which still can be done pre-Heart of the Swarm is to just address protoss. Zerg doesn't really have death balls. Their units still clump up, as do all, but they all have different speeds, some are used for flanking, others for harass, and so on. Their ground units like the roach and the ultralisk do have a high-ish collision size too. Protoss on the other hand, tends to have the small, similar speed zealot and sentry stand in formation with a colossus on top and void rays in between. It clumps to a level that's not just unrealistic, but looks a bit silly in-game. Like I said, I'm not even sure about the gameplay effects of the clumping as much as the effect on spectators who like the epic feeling of Brood War's army clashes. Another effect is that clumping does not necessarily remove micro in-battle, but it does remove problems with positioning. Zerg and even terran require you to spread out your units in various concave formations or prepare surrounds and such, but with protoss the game does it for you, since the race works well enough if clumped up. Fungal Growth and EMP are supposed to help with this, but both spells have been nerfed and outside of fungal, I'm not sure if they ever outright stopped these sort of formations. | ||
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