EPTOn December 29 2011 22:58 Mehukannu wrote:
Marines splitting against banelings comes to mind as game deciding micro...
Marines splitting against banelings comes to mind as game deciding micro...
What?
Unit Clumping in SC2 - Good or Bad - Page 10
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thezanursic
5497 Posts
What? | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On December 29 2011 21:55 figq wrote: Higher density of units = more firepower per area. Valid even for melee units, indeed. It's probably the only aspect "for" keeping units clumped as they are. However, on a second thought, do we really need lots of firepower? Blizzard certainly does. They've made all kinds of basic changes towards faster games with quicker conclusions. More concentrated firepower helps them with this goal. Meanwhile, we, who have experienced the pure epic brilliance of BW battles, still feel somewhat dissatisfied with how battles are in SC2 (fortunately they are improving slowly). If they removed auto surround and auto concaving it would be much superior spectaror-wise game, and they could keep current dps values, units melt so fast because the concaves/surrounds happen in 1-2 secs due to smart AI, also i find it ridiculously funny how hard is to trap zerglings with zerglings, its almost impossible, thats what happens when you have both fast , small, with smart AI unit, 0.5 CM hole is enough for 20 zergling to avoid trap.... I would also love if they would bring more physical traits to units (larger models/collisions), automatically it would make them more spread and micro battles would occur and there would be less need for force-field fest. But i guess its already to late  | ||
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Volkspanzer
United States83 Posts
At least the dragoon was ranged, you'd be lucky if these beasties actually made it into melee range without a hitch. | ||
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Nymbul
United Kingdom127 Posts
To fix deathball syndrome you have to make toss units stronger by themselves. Because in cost-for-cost even matches with their counterparts almost all toss units lose. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
See if terran happens to lose all his marines to banelings because he doesn't do any micro, not only he loses marines to but all the siege tanks that was with him, which then pretty much forces terran to be on defensive for next few minutes until he gets his marine + tank count up so that he can defend his expansions safely and proceed to harass the zerg so he can get to the equal ground with him. So I am saying that you are wrong in the fact that micro doesn't make big difference when in fact it does especially in TvZ. | ||
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Paaaz
Philippines33 Posts
On December 29 2011 23:13 Nymbul wrote: Maybe it needs to be tweaked slightly but some people are suggesting that blizzard basically worsen the pathing and AI of units. To fix deathball syndrome you have to make toss units stronger by themselves. Because in cost-for-cost even matches with their counterparts almost all toss units lose. The problem with that is if you make individual toss units stronger, you also inadvertently make the deathball stronger. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On December 29 2011 23:17 Paaaz wrote: The problem with that is if you make individual toss units stronger, you also inadvertently make the deathball stronger. Remove the Colossus, there, deathball solved. You can't make toss units stronger because of warpgate. | ||
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Nymbul
United Kingdom127 Posts
On December 29 2011 23:17 Paaaz wrote: The problem with that is if you make individual toss units stronger, you also inadvertently make the deathball stronger. Sorry, I posted on the assumption that the mechanics were to change to break the deathball. Then toss units would have to be stronger individually I'm not sure removing the colossus is the idea, i'm liking the warp prism colossus tricks that pros are doing these days. We still have to remember that the brood war we compare SC2 to is 10 years in the making. Who knows what things will look like 4 years down the line with 2 expansions on top of it | ||
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Skytt
Scotland333 Posts
We are already seeing it with stalker blink micro and the occassional lift micro, but once people get better at the game I reckon we will see fights where people are doing death ball splitting, consistant focus firing and stuff like roach burrow micro. Pros will eventually overturn big supply gaps because they are getting the most out of their units and SC2 will be so much better to watch because of it. Artosis said something along the lines of: "no one is playing the game well just now" and I'd agree with him. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On December 29 2011 21:46 Snettik wrote: Imagine 200 marines clumped in 1 single point attack moving against 200 marines spread evenly all over antiga shipyard. it would basically be 200 vs 1 a lot of times over and over and clumped up would win It would be like 50 attacking 10 for the clumped side(those 10 exactly at the point of impact of the 2 armies), while it would be 200 attacking 50 for the concave(those in the front lines of the ball). If we ignore micro, the concave would decimate the ball. + Show Spoiler + With micro(and the marine especially) you can micro to one side increasing your clumped ball's effectiveness and decreasing the concaves, but that's still dangerous if your opponent has aoe. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
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gn0m
Sweden302 Posts
Also, the comments about how unit clumping creates so much micro are just ridiculous. There is less micro in SC2 period, and it has nothing to do with clumping, but with auto surround, smart target, smart cast, unlimited unit selection etc. SC2 is an excellent game but anyone saying that is has more micro than broodwar needs a reality check. | ||
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laguu
Finland278 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 29 2011 23:39 gn0m wrote: I dont think that the unit clumping in SC2 increases nor decreases the skill level particularly much, it’s just the way the game works. That being said, I think that it’s a big flaw since it creates dull blob vs. blob battles. In BW, battles can stretch over several screens which create a much more epic feeling compared to two blobs trying to deal as much DPS as possible. The clumping also makes it harder to see whats going on, which is a big no-no for a game that aspires to be an eSport. Also, the comments about how unit clumping creates so much micro are just ridiculous. There is less micro in SC2 period, and it has nothing to do with clumping, but with auto surround, smart target, smart cast, unlimited unit selection etc. SC2 is an excellent game but anyone saying that is has more micro than broodwar needs a reality check. As micro in bw and sc2 is limited by apm and not by possibilities it is simply impossible for one of those 2 games to have "more micro". the difference is how the micro looks like. | ||
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blubbdavid
Switzerland2412 Posts
On December 30 2011 00:34 Big J wrote: As micro in bw and sc2 is limited by apm and not by possibilities it is simply impossible for one of those 2 games to have "more micro". the difference is how the micro looks like. BW has more micro: Patrol Micro. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
In the example of Protoss, it does. With Terran and lesser extent Zerg spreading out your units is encouraged, as otherwise you will get wrecked by AoE. Spreading units that automatically clump adds to the skill of the game. | ||
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drgonzhere
United States447 Posts
On December 29 2011 12:07 Leviance wrote: The first true SC2 bonjwa will actually train and be able to de-clump his units, everyone is gonna be shocked how one-sided battles will go in his favour. I don't get how even now, a year after release, the majority of the pros (Koreans included) only use 1-2 hotkeys for their armies. The best Zergs in the world still run all their lings clumped into a siege line instead of separating a few at the start to completely negate splash, Collossi attacks are still devastating because everyone is too lazy to split intelligently so that most of the splash is avoided, far too often a group of 4-6 templars get hit by ONE emp because lazy players (pros!!!) keep them so vulnerably together. The new UI allows for being more lazy, and the pros atm are showing just that: being lazy (on their level) I know it'd be fucking hard to constantly de-clump and so on, but that's exactly the work a wannabe-bonjwa has to do, if it wasn't hard as shit, everyone could do it. But right now everyone (GSL winners included) just keeps suffering from the 1-2 control group syndrome and the many disadvantages that come with it. frustrating to watch, but leaves hope for Jaedong, Flash etc. switching and showing the rest how it's done. Couldn't have said it better myself, once we get a pro with the ability to unclump effectively they will dominate the scene. | ||
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Diizzy
United States828 Posts
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power-overwhelming
Canada306 Posts
On December 29 2011 23:20 Elefanto wrote: Remove the Colossus, there, deathball solved. You can't make toss units stronger because of warpgate. Lol... a terran bio ball which coast less than half the of what a protoss deathball is (even without colo) will get decimated in 5 seconds. Stim + medi + kiting vs gateway units only? Ya right lol. Throw in a ghost then a mediocre terran just rolls over a good protoss. Protoss has the worst t1 units. The also have very limited synergy with other units. There are only 2 late game composition a good protoss will have, gateway archon, and gateway colo/archon. Without colo then ghost will laugh at any 3/3 protoss army. If colo gets removed then bring back reaver. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
Did you even read what he wrote? | ||
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