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Slow day at work and looks like most of exciting drama here have died down too, so here is a question for everyone to ponder and chip in: What is everyone's opinion on how SC2 units clump tightly together?
There is a pretty good debate over at PlayXP on this for those who understand Korean. Click here
Some argue that this is an intended design mechanism by Blizzard while others say that it's a design flaw. But, most agree that this unit clumping limits the strategic part of this game because of the impact of one giant death ball. (Maybe someone is willing to translate some key points... I'll admit that I'm way too lazy  )
Some are even saying that the success of SC2 lies on how Blizzard deals with this unit clumping issue with their next expansion.
I personally think that units are clumping too tight and unrealistically, and I agree that it's not good for the game to develop on its own like how BW did.
So, what does everyone think?
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its intended because it forces micro, otherwise the game would be even easier. and ive never heard much about this ever being an issue o_O. seems fine to me
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A quick thought regarding the topic is that it forces the pros to either split their units or position them better so it is circumventable with better controls.
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On December 29 2011 11:54 PhiliBiRD wrote:
its intended because it forces micro, otherwise the game would be even easier. and ive never heard much about this ever being an issue o_O. seems fine to me
I gotta say, In BW they didnt clump up.. and it was So much hard than SCII to micro...
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All units need a collision size about 1.5x what it is right now.
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It is intended. It is also something that could force micro in ways that brood war didn't need. More micro avoiding your units clumping up is something those with the highest APM can take advantage of.
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On December 29 2011 11:56 DibujEx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:54 PhiliBiRD wrote:
its intended because it forces micro, otherwise the game would be even easier. and ive never heard much about this ever being an issue o_O. seems fine to me I gotta say, In BW they didnt clump up.. and it was So much hard than SCII to micro...
Well SCII units have smarter pathings and control groups consisting of more than 12 units.
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On December 29 2011 11:56 DibujEx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:54 PhiliBiRD wrote:
its intended because it forces micro, otherwise the game would be even easier. and ive never heard much about this ever being an issue o_O. seems fine to me I gotta say, In BW they didnt clump up.. and it was So much hard than SCII to micro...
harder to micro because the units were retarded (dragoon)
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On December 29 2011 11:56 DibujEx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:54 PhiliBiRD wrote:
its intended because it forces micro, otherwise the game would be even easier. and ive never heard much about this ever being an issue o_O. seems fine to me I gotta say, In BW they didnt clump up.. and it was So much hard than SCII to micro...
And unclumping them seems more useful than having them clumped so you can avoid AOE... just because bad mechanics forced you to click each dragoon 30 times so it didnt wander off on its own doesn't make it a better thing. Microing small groups of units to unclump them can be every bit as hard.
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well all units at the moment clip into each other, aesthetically i think thats ugly
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On December 29 2011 11:54 PhiliBiRD wrote:
its intended because it forces micro, otherwise the game would be even easier. and ive never heard much about this ever being an issue o_O. seems fine to me
Micro happens regardless of how much units are clumped up together. BW requires about the same level of micro as SC2. I would agree with you if you are saying that micro is harder in SC2 because units are clumped up so tight.
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Unit clumping is good. An army should stay in the formation that maximises its fighting ability. What blizzard should do is give disincentive to clump units, for example, with aoe, so it becomes a skill to manage a spread formation. Also, another thing to note is that currently, a concave formation is stronger than a ball.
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On December 29 2011 11:56 Mohdoo wrote:
All units need a collision size about 1.5x what it is right now.
I believe this idea has come up in that PlayXP debate.
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From a spectator point of view I think it looks worse if you compare it to BW. It gets harder to get a good idea of the actual size and composition of an army while the observers blaze past it, and the general "so many x units" is not really helpful. This is especially bad for Protoss when they have colossus that cover the whole army. Or/and hallucinated colossus. With healthbars on...
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On December 29 2011 11:58 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:56 DibujEx wrote:On December 29 2011 11:54 PhiliBiRD wrote:
its intended because it forces micro, otherwise the game would be even easier. and ive never heard much about this ever being an issue o_O. seems fine to me I gotta say, In BW they didnt clump up.. and it was So much hard than SCII to micro... Well SCII units have smarter pathings and control groups consisting of more than 12 units.
There is also a difference in how the unit pathing works. In BW, units avoid other stationary units. But in SC2, units seem to push through other stationary units which adds to more clumping.
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The first true SC2 bonjwa will actually train and be able to de-clump his units, everyone is gonna be shocked how one-sided battles will go in his favour. I don't get how even now, a year after release, the majority of the pros (Koreans included) only use 1-2 hotkeys for their armies. The best Zergs in the world still run all their lings clumped into a siege line instead of separating a few at the start to completely negate splash, Collossi attacks are still devastating because everyone is too lazy to split intelligently so that most of the splash is avoided, far too often a group of 4-6 templars get hit by ONE emp because lazy players (pros!!!) keep them so vulnerably together. The new UI allows for being more lazy, and the pros atm are showing just that: being lazy (on their level) I know it'd be fucking hard to constantly de-clump and so on, but that's exactly the work a wannabe-bonjwa has to do, if it wasn't hard as shit, everyone could do it. But right now everyone (GSL winners included) just keeps suffering from the 1-2 control group syndrome and the many disadvantages that come with it. frustrating to watch, but leaves hope for Jaedong, Flash etc. switching and showing the rest how it's done.
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as far as 1 giant ball vs another giant ball goes
it's boring as hell and one of the main reasons my interest in the game has declined significantly.
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Canada709 Posts
Bad for the game since it reduces the skill cap as ball armies require significantly less micro while army maneuvering/positioning is less rewarding
Also judging by the tone on the TC, it's like he's trying to start a flame war or something...
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As noted before, it is not visually appealing when you see a ball of units, clumped together, trying to do something.
I absolutely adore watching broodwar, and honestly wish that I could have enjoyed the time that broodwar was popular.
Course, I'm stuck with SC2 now, so I guess I'll just have to deal.
I agree with the notion that the unit collision be bigger.
Only partially though, as I think it would even just make micro too easy, and only aid the visual aspect of the game. The pathing would still be really good, and then you have almost every reason to try and keep your units in one hotkey, just because it would be hilariously easy to micro a already slightly spread ball.
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On December 29 2011 12:10 SkimGuy wrote:
Bad for the game since it reduces the skill cap as ball armies require significantly less micro while army maneuvering/positioning is less rewarding
It actually rises the skill cap, but nobody has noticed yet because no one is consistently trying to de-clump in battles and use more than 2 control groups for his army. If a death ball a-moved into a perfectly de-clumped and microed army the death ball would melt and leave you O_O
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EPT
