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On December 29 2011 15:55 ScythedBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 15:48 kineSiS- wrote:On December 29 2011 11:58 mrtomjones wrote:On December 29 2011 11:56 DibujEx wrote:On December 29 2011 11:54 PhiliBiRD wrote:
its intended because it forces micro, otherwise the game would be even easier. and ive never heard much about this ever being an issue o_O. seems fine to me I gotta say, In BW they didnt clump up.. and it was So much hard than SCII to micro... And unclumping them seems more useful than having them clumped so you can avoid AOE... just because bad mechanics forced you to click each dragoon 30 times so it didnt wander off on its own doesn't make it a better thing. Microing small groups of units to unclump them can be every bit as hard. But it obviously isn't because everyone is in consensus that SC: BW is a much harder game to master. False Statement. Disproven by logic statements and parameterizing. The only true statement lies in that they are both different games, and you can apply various different functions to come out with either SC2 being harder or SC:BW being harder. One could easily say SC2 is so much harder because units die so easy that the amount of micro you could do in SC may be higher, but skillwise, it might be "harder" to micro in SC2 because events happen so fast. See this problem with human beings?
No, by logic. Brood War is harder.
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Is there a map that has anti-clumping implemented? It would be great to try out how much of a difference it makes
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I think if specific units had micro "tricks" (i.e mutas/wraiths/vultures/carriers ect. in Brood War) this would be a lot less of a problem...but the only micro tricks SC2 has is splitting marines (if that even is considered a trick -.-) and I'm struggling to think of any others. We are stuck with the 1a syndrome because that's simply more efficient because the units are designed to work optimally like that as opposed to require something done to them to work at their max.
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On December 30 2011 12:09 FatkiddsLag wrote:
those of you who want unclumped i just assume you want terran bio ball to be unstoppable
im sorry but this has to be said.
if blizzard is going to be changing the pathing dont you think things will be balanced accordingly????!!!////???
honestly throughout this thread there are heaps of people saying "oh no but then this unit will be OP nono no this will be op no no no then this unit will be shit"
omfg stop for a moment.
if blizzard were to change Ai clumping to what the images on page 12 show they would only do so at the release of either HOTS or LOV. (LOV more likely).
once doing so everything would be reshuffled and re balanced to account for the new AI changes.
there wont be any OMFG storm is UP it shit. because it will be changed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111121111 elerven one one !!!!
blizzard however has said they dont want to dumb down ai but i dont think they understand that its not dumbing down the ai but rather "changing" the ai pathing.
ARGHGHGHGHGHGHGHHGHHGGH
think for a moment what is better to watch. two tightly packed balls of units firing lasers and whoosh sparks at each other.
or a spread out easy to see units that now have to be moved around more in order for each side to maximise efficiency?
YES IT IS easier for players to 1a a ball of units across a map and in most cases. YES IT WOULD be harder to control army's if the pathing were changed.
but if people can play BW (not a bw vs sc2 comment calm down) at the level they do with the restrictions in place people WILL adapt to sc2 changes.
and ultimately sc2's success as an esport (gosh i said it) will be determined by is watchabilty.
people need to get off the whole "omfg balance balance balance shit shit shit op up op up dont change it will break the game "bandwagon and just think.
/rant over.
Edited: not as much caps not as much shouting ha ha cheers.
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@poster above , I suggest editing the caps because excessive use of it will make you sound like you are shouting the whole way and mod's do not like that ... good luck.
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unit clumping is bad unless you're reducing surface area for a surround.
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Clumping is not the issue. Its having unlimited units in a control group. Directly leads to deathball/1a syndrome.
12 unit selection in BW is often called archaic, but it forces you to spread your units out due to only selecting some of your army at a time. Although, 24 might be a better limit for SC2.
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Bad obviously. It results in ball vs ball which sucks as a spectator, and less ability to control space because of how powerful dense clumps of units are.
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How do you "fix" unit clumping ?
Air unit clumping ? well that was there in bw and it will cause a ton of problems with muta micro ( phoenix also but those are still quite rare to see in number over 5 )
Ground unit clumping ? How do you make them no clump ? They are not ( as far as i am concerned ) clumping to unrealistically except for the colossus which is kind of an air-ground unit so we just ignore him here for a second.Hell they are so "unclumpable" that ultralisks can't walk over lings.
What you are asking for is a "bad" engine which forces you to not be able to control your army at once/unit don't clump due to bad pathing, just like bw ( in which the engine was good for the time..but that was a while ago ), and honestly if you really want that there is a whole bunch of ppl playing bw , hell even ppl playing sc vanila, that you can play with/watch a competitive scene with.
Blizzard unit pathing/interaction is the most well done and realistic ,while not damaging the actual control you have over the unit (see Total war series/LOTR where the units interact more realistically but once they engage... you ain't gonna micro them to much since they won't do what you tell them to do due to the "realists" combat ), in any RTS up to date.
Ground units don't clump unrealistically except for the colossus ( which is an air-ish unit ) and air units ( which do so for the sake of being able to micro them properly )
Why have worse pathing and units not interacting as realistically as they do now ? Not to have "big battles" ? The game is designed so that big battles will happen, if you don't want that then you should design the game another way where there would be more mobile units and all the "strong" units would be siege tank like ( quite frankly that will never be sc2 nor i want it to be ) by introducing shitty pathing like in bw ( again, im not insulting bw, by the time they made the engine i know there pathing was the greatest )/ limited control group you fix the problem by increasing the mechanical requirement to do so, which is pretty much saying " you have to be god like with unit control to play properly"... i do not believe anyone would agree with this.
Bw was so static with small engagements everywhere due to siege units being overpowered so making the game engine worse so that units don't interact well one near another might not even fix it.
It is just pointless to discuss this until someone puts the effort to give us a custom map with a "proper" unit pathing so thus ppl can decide if it would idd help sc2. I doubt blizzard will change the god-like pathing/unit control with no match in the RTS world that the game has now.
Edit:
Its way bigger of a rant than i had expected now that i read it, so let me tl;dr it for you
TL;DR
+ Show Spoiler +If you want to play bw go play bw, people still play bw and there is a reason why bw is not played so much in USA/EU, making sc2 like bw will make sc2 not be played so much in USA/EU it won't magically make everyone play a bw-esc game because it called sc2
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On December 29 2011 17:04 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:58 leo23 wrote:On December 29 2011 11:56 DibujEx wrote:On December 29 2011 11:54 PhiliBiRD wrote:
its intended because it forces micro, otherwise the game would be even easier. and ive never heard much about this ever being an issue o_O. seems fine to me I gotta say, In BW they didnt clump up.. and it was So much hard than SCII to micro... harder to micro because the units were retarded (dragoon) I read this a lot and I dont know where this came from. Every person with IQ over 60 after 20-30 games could understand the specifics of the dragoon`s movement.
http://i.imgur.com/uBzf9.gif
You can't explain that! But in all seriousness, if you don't think Goliaths and Dragoons were autistic there is something wrong with you, I'm sure even A+ players (like Day[9], Idra, Testie, etc. and such) would tell you that their pathing was awful and they were terrible to control at times.
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Canada11496 Posts
On December 30 2011 11:29 Zanno wrote:It's not even that simple: Here's something I posted while the game was still in alpha about the pathing, and specifically how starcraft pathing works: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=57970+ Show Spoiler +On August 15 2007 15:09 Zanno wrote:Here's a comparison of SC pathing vs war3 pathing. From watching gameplay vids, it SEEMS to me, that units are using war3 style pathing, except clumping together more heavily. Someone who went to Blizzcon can confirm this. Edit: Seems like some people can't read, so I'm going to emphasize this very important point with some bold italic underlining: THE FORMATION BUTTON IN WARCRAFT 3 CHANGES THE PATHFINDING SO THAT YOUR SELECTION MOVES AT THE SPEED OF THE SLOWEST UNIT. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH UNITS GETTING CLUMPED UP INTO A NICE LOOK GRID, AND THERE IS NO WAY TO DISABLE THIS ASPECT OF THE WAR3 PATHING!!!SC pathing: units move parallel to each other, unless they're going down a ramp or something else is obstructing their path, or the formation is outside of the "magical boxes". ![[image loading]](http://zanno.oddwebsite.com/pathing_sc1.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://zanno.oddwebsite.com/pathing_sc2.jpg) It's a little inaccurate at times, but it generally gets the right idea. ![[image loading]](http://zanno.oddwebsite.com/pathing_sc3.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://zanno.oddwebsite.com/pathing_sc4.jpg) (edit) If the units are outside of the magic boxes, they all converge on a single point, regardless of whether or not the point is inside or outside of the unit formation. ![[image loading]](http://zanno.oddwebsite.com/pathing_sc9.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://zanno.oddwebsite.com/pathing_sc10.jpg) War pathing: units fall into a nice looking box ![[image loading]](http://zanno.oddwebsite.com/pathing_war1.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://zanno.oddwebsite.com/pathing_war2.jpg) Oh no! All that time I spent setting up a nice little formation to protect my archmage was completely wasted. ![[image loading]](http://zanno.oddwebsite.com/pathing_war3.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://zanno.oddwebsite.com/pathing_war4.jpg) It doesn't matter if they are tightly packed or spread out, they still fall into the same spread box formation. You might also want to take note that the position of the box is dependent on the direction you clicked the command in. This box may look nice, but it has huge implications on unit formations, in other words, you can't set one up! Toggling the formation button does nothing - that sets it so that a group of units moves at the same speed as the slowest unit. Someone from Blizzcon can probably answer this. I've noticed big units like siege tanks tripping up as they try to rotate around each other, instead of moving parallel to one another so they wouldn't have to get around each other. It also seems like no matter what the player does, marines travel in huge boxy clusters. That box may LOOK nice, but it plays horrible, and out of all of the features that you can argue newbie up war3, this is by far the biggest one. The most optimal pathing formation is one where all your units move parallel to each other - refer to 1,000 vods of players setting up zergling surrounds, moving perfectly set up zealot walls to charge tank lines and block zerglings from hitting your templar, and deliberately calculated tank formations. With war3 style pathing, these formations would immediately be broken up in a single move command. I don't understand why anyone else hasn't brought this up but me, and whenever I posted about it during war3 beta, I got ignored. This is a HUGE FUCKING DEAL and we need to make a lot of noise about it to get this fixed as soon as possible. Unlike a lot of other comments about war3 in this forum, this is not a blind "war3=noob" flame, it's a serious issue that's gone without discussion. What we know now, is that the pathing works similar to warcraft 3 except it arranges units in a circle instead of a square. In starcraft you are often quite deliberate with your unit formations, and as a medicore BW PvT player I can tell you that very subtle differences in unit formation I can't even put into words make the difference between you crushing a tank line with minimal losses or losing your whole army killing like 3 tanks and a bunch of vultures. But in starcraft 2, every time you go to attack, your army formation is completely reset. If they really want to fix this in the most baller passive way possible, that noobs will never notice, would be to implement BW style pathfinding for control groups with 12 units or less where your units stay in the formation you put them unless they can't. It has nothing to do with being "bad", all it needs to do is move units in parallel. Buggy dragoon AI can fuck off, I don't miss it, I just want my units to do what I tell them. What honestly surprises me, isn't so much that I called this right away, but rather the issue is exactly as severe I thought it would be. Maybe if we are lucky, we can get it fixed in HOTS, but I think one of the problem we're having Blizzard is that I haven't seen a single pro player articulate why BW pathing was better
Huh. You know what? I think you're right. Unit clumping is part of the problem due to aesthetics. But the resetting formations is actually anti-micro and far more problematic. There was one question, I've had in the back of my mind for awhile and that is- is there magic box for the ground? Because the units pushing each other around seems the opposite of how magic box ground troops worked.
That was part of how dragoon micro or even zealot lines attacking tank lines worked. But yeah, somehow the issue of units moving in the formation you set up (NOT a formation button), running parallel needs to be talked about. Because Blizzard seems to think the argument is we want dragoon glitches back in the game and that is simply not true.
No matter how good pro's will get, they will still have to fight this formation reset problem and the ui itself will counteract them every step of the way.
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On December 30 2011 15:12 Aterons_toss wrote:How do you "fix" unit clumping ? Air unit clumping ? well that was there in bw and it will cause a ton of problems with muta micro ( phoenix also but those are still quite rare to see in number over 5 ) Ground unit clumping ? How do you make them no clump ? They are not ( as far as i am concerned ) clumping to unrealistically except for the colossus which is kind of an air-ground unit so we just ignore him here for a second.Hell they are so "unclumpable" that ultralisks can't walk over lings. What you are asking for is a "bad" engine which forces you to not be able to control your army at once/unit don't clump due to bad pathing, just like bw ( in which the engine was good for the time..but that was a while ago ), and honestly if you really want that there is a whole bunch of ppl playing bw , hell even ppl playing sc vanila, that you can play with/watch a competitive scene with. Blizzard unit pathing/interaction is the most well done and realistic ,while not damaging the actual control you have over the unit (see Total war series/LOTR where the units interact more realistically but once they engage... you ain't gonna micro them to much since they won't do what you tell them to do due to the "realists" combat ), in any RTS up to date. Ground units don't clump unrealistically except for the colossus ( which is an air-ish unit ) and air units ( which do so for the sake of being able to micro them properly ) Why have worse pathing and units not interacting as realistically as they do now ? Not to have "big battles" ? The game is designed so that big battles will happen, if you don't want that then you should design the game another way where there would be more mobile units and all the "strong" units would be siege tank like ( quite frankly that will never be sc2 nor i want it to be ) by introducing shitty pathing like in bw ( again, im not insulting bw, by the time they made the engine i know there pathing was the greatest )/ limited control group you fix the problem by increasing the mechanical requirement to do so, which is pretty much saying " you have to be god like with unit control to play properly"... i do not believe anyone would agree with this. Bw was so static with small engagements everywhere due to siege units being overpowered so making the game engine worse so that units don't interact well one near another might not even fix it.
It is just pointless to discuss this until someone puts the effort to give us a custom map with a "proper" unit pathing so thus ppl can decide if it would idd help sc2. I doubt blizzard will change the god-like pathing/unit control with no match in the RTS world that the game has now. Edit: Its way bigger of a rant than i had expected now that i read it, so let me tl;dr it for you TL;DR + Show Spoiler +If you want to play bw go play bw, people still play bw and there is a reason why bw is not played so much in USA/EU, making sc2 like bw will make sc2 not be played so much in USA/EU it won't magically make everyone play a bw-esc game because it called sc2
Seem pretty ill informed about broodwar , engagement was static because of mech immobility , it can't move as fast like MnM to get map control that's why it has to rely on dropships and map control to gain an advantage or slow push towards the enemy as seen in TvP , TvT . How does one unit interact well with each other ? Vultures are good companion with tanks , so are goliaths and even turrets .
On the other hand bw doesn't have "SHITTY" pathing at all , I enjoy microing my siege tank , spreading them in front of my enemy's natural , putting up advertisement saying " COME AT ME BRO " and they do , damn blue goo's so wonderful to see . Muta micro , vulture micro, zergling micro, dragoon micro, Tank micro ,carrier micro , they are so wonderful and even the goliath lousy pathing is really tolerable . A simple move command or stop to de freeze the frozen dragoons are quite easy in my opinion .
Sc2 elitism sentiments is oozing through out your whole statement .
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On December 30 2011 12:23 TyrantPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 12:09 FatkiddsLag wrote:
those of you who want unclumped i just assume you want terran bio ball to be unstoppable im sorry but this has to be said. if blizzard is going to be changing the pathing dont you think things will be balanced accordingly????!!!////??? honestly throughout this thread there are heaps of people saying "oh no but then this unit will be OP nono no this will be op no no no then this unit will be shit" omfg stop for a moment. if blizzard were to change Ai clumping to what the images on page 12 show they would only do so at the release of either HOTS or LOV. (LOV more likely). once doing so everything would be reshuffled and re balanced to account for the new AI changes. there wont be any OMFG storm is UP it shit. because it will be changed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111121111 elerven one one !!!! blizzard however has said they dont want to dumb down ai but i dont think they understand that its not dumbing down the ai but rather "changing" the ai pathing. ARGHGHGHGHGHGHGHHGHHGGH think for a moment what is better to watch. two tightly packed balls of units firing lasers and whoosh sparks at each other. or a spread out easy to see units that now have to be moved around more in order for each side to maximise efficiency? YES IT IS easier for players to 1a a ball of units across a map and in most cases. YES IT WOULD be harder to control army's if the pathing were changed. but if people can play BW (not a bw vs sc2 comment calm down) at the level they do with the restrictions in place people WILL adapt to sc2 changes. and ultimately sc2's success as an esport (gosh i said it) will be determined by is watchabilty. people need to get off the whole "omfg balance balance balance shit shit shit op up op up dont change it will break the game "bandwagon and just think. /rant over. Edited: not as much caps not as much shouting ha ha cheers.
exactly. the whole game, each and every unit would have to be rebalanced. You could as well just ask blizzard to drop sc2 and start developing sc3, as it is more likely to play sc3 in 2013 than unclumped sc2 ever.
Also this collision size stuff people arguement with wont change a lot in terma of "stuff you have to do". broodwar was so.hard to to micro because units did not do what u wanted them to do, but they still could be packed very tightly artificially. changing the colission circles takes away the possibility to micro units close together as well. units still get stuck in "balls" but now they dont look like balls anymore and everytime you try to micro a unit from the middle it still wont move through the invisibly blocked spaces around it.
You will have to dumb down ai, to achieve what you are looking for.
And what is bettercto watch? i guess thazs a simple question of what you want to see... do you prefer tennis or soccer, skiing or basketball, dancing or "the biggest explosions".
I prefer watching sc2 over bw,for whatever reasons.
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I would like units to clump together more tightly.
Especially air units. They de-clump so quickly... and you can't do the same muta micro as brood war.
It's an easy change. Just slow the de-clumping of air units. Broodwar air units de-clump, but really really slowly. Actually, maybe I'm just imaging overlords. So do units de-clump at the same speed as their unit speed? I blanking now.
As far as ground units... I would disagree that making units more retarded would be the best choice for sc2. Sure, it'll make things more difficult to move around. But there isn't a reason to... What kind of skills do you need to move BW units? If you can move single units as smooth as sc2 movement, then there isn't a reason to change movement. The problem shouldn't be movement, but how fast units kill other units with deathballs. as everyone says, there's a lot of splash damage in starcraft 2. It makes the game faster since movement is smarter. It's just zerg doesn't have a good answer to protoss deathballs..
The koreans making the fuss should be rectified with some new ideas. I don't see how making units more retarded will make the game more entertaining.
And don't tell me the reason people don't like deathballs because it 'looks stupid.' Well, i've been watching a few games, and these deathballs are looking a lot more like squads and untis are spread around the maps like squads...
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On December 30 2011 19:39 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 12:23 TyrantPotato wrote:On December 30 2011 12:09 FatkiddsLag wrote:
those of you who want unclumped i just assume you want terran bio ball to be unstoppable im sorry but this has to be said. if blizzard is going to be changing the pathing dont you think things will be balanced accordingly????!!!////??? honestly throughout this thread there are heaps of people saying "oh no but then this unit will be OP nono no this will be op no no no then this unit will be shit" omfg stop for a moment. if blizzard were to change Ai clumping to what the images on page 12 show they would only do so at the release of either HOTS or LOV. (LOV more likely). once doing so everything would be reshuffled and re balanced to account for the new AI changes. there wont be any OMFG storm is UP it shit. because it will be changed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111121111 elerven one one !!!! blizzard however has said they dont want to dumb down ai but i dont think they understand that its not dumbing down the ai but rather "changing" the ai pathing. ARGHGHGHGHGHGHGHHGHHGGH think for a moment what is better to watch. two tightly packed balls of units firing lasers and whoosh sparks at each other. or a spread out easy to see units that now have to be moved around more in order for each side to maximise efficiency? YES IT IS easier for players to 1a a ball of units across a map and in most cases. YES IT WOULD be harder to control army's if the pathing were changed. but if people can play BW (not a bw vs sc2 comment calm down) at the level they do with the restrictions in place people WILL adapt to sc2 changes. and ultimately sc2's success as an esport (gosh i said it) will be determined by is watchabilty. people need to get off the whole "omfg balance balance balance shit shit shit op up op up dont change it will break the game "bandwagon and just think. /rant over. Edited: not as much caps not as much shouting ha ha cheers. exactly. the whole game, each and every unit would have to be rebalanced. You could as well just ask blizzard to drop sc2 and start developing sc3, as it is more likely to play sc3 in 2013 than unclumped sc2 ever. Also this collision size stuff people arguement with wont change a lot in terma of "stuff you have to do". broodwar was so.hard to to micro because units did not do what u wanted them to do, but they still could be packed very tightly artificially. changing the colission circles takes away the possibility to micro units close together as well. units still get stuck in "balls" but now they dont look like balls anymore and everytime you try to micro a unit from the middle it still wont move through the invisibly blocked spaces around it. You will have to dumb down ai, to achieve what you are looking for. And what is bettercto watch? i guess thazs a simple question of what you want to see... do you prefer tennis or soccer, skiing or basketball, dancing or "the biggest explosions". I prefer watching sc2 over bw,for whatever reasons.
What's so hard to micro ? my siege tank's were chilling in their fortified position waiting for Dragoons to storm me . In Russia tanks stomp you ..... ![[image loading]](http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee22/WanSzeOnn/Inrussiatanksstompyou.jpg) January , oops I mean blue goo you are so beautiful..... ![[image loading]](http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee22/WanSzeOnn/Bluegoosobeautiful.jpg)
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yeah in sc2 the units are clumping too much
they looks like walking blobs T_T
its much better in BW to be honest..
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Well, it's easier with clumped up engine when playing ranged (non-aoe) vs melee (non-aoe). In all other situations you want to split (vs aoe) or get a better arc (ranged vs ranged or melee vs melee). Isn't it obvious? :o
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they can just add an invisible wall around each units, like a box or something, so there is a little space between them
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On December 29 2011 11:56 Mohdoo wrote:
All units need a collision size about 1.5x what it is right now.
This. The pathing is fine, they just need not to be so close to each other like they were in a sold out concert and people have no space to move. Compared to an image of sc2 units i saw some time ago with units more spread between each other, the real one looked really bad.
It seems to me that SC2 units are even closer to each other than soldiers moving in formation, which not only looks bad, but gives a sense of "something is not right here".
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"Unclumping" units like in BW would severly reduce the usefullness of AoE/splash and psi storm and fungals in particular which would give us yet another delicate balance problem, IMO.
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EPT
