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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
Edit: To keep on topic with the thread. I don't understand why the 7 range of NP caused such an uproar. It's obvious that Blizzard were aiming to change the spell since it was affecting ZvP way to much, and a 7 range compromise can't surely be that much of a disadvantage? Yes, Stalkers and other colossi will be able to snipe the specific infestors easier now. That is the intent of the change... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 20 2011 03:22 Dalavita wrote: I don't understand why the 7 range of NP caused such an uproar. It's obvious that Blizzard were aiming to change the spell since it was affecting ZvP way to much, and a 7 range compromise can't surely be that much of a disadvantage? Yes, Stalkers and other colossi will be able to snipe the specific infestors easier now. That is the intent of the change... Well, I guess most of that uproar comes from the former "massive"-change variant. Also I think a lot of players who like to play Infestors TvZ, fear that they won't be able to fight mech now, as good as before, and though I do agree that infestors are very hard to deal with for Protoss' right now, I don't like it, that they are being nerfed, while I think that it would simply be more intellegent to boost Protoss right now. (as TvZ is very balanced right now, but PvT and PvZ are not) + Show Spoiler + just some random ideas (I know this won't change anything, but I'd just like to share them): -) feedback +1 range (to combat ghosts and infestors better) -) sentries getting spellimmune (again an interesting variant vs ghosts and infestors) -) Void Ray/Phoenix semiredesign, making Stargate less of an investment, less powerful early, but more powerful midgame... (as it is right now, phoenix are too weak against any air apart of mutas, which don't exist in the current metagame... void rays are huge investments early on, and lead to this coinflip scenarios, in which you're either able to counter it directly - which puts P behind - or you're simply dead - which is just annoyingly strong) | ||
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sagefreke
United States241 Posts
On September 20 2011 03:22 Dalavita wrote: A couple of a months ago protosses were dominating everything. God damn I get sick of metagame crying... Edit: To keep on topic with the thread. I don't understand why the 7 range of NP caused such an uproar. It's obvious that Blizzard were aiming to change the spell since it was affecting ZvP way to much, and a 7 range compromise can't surely be that much of a disadvantage? Yes, Stalkers and other colossi will be able to snipe the specific infestors easier now. That is the intent of the change... My biggest complaint about the patch is that it seems Blizzard is trying to change too much in one patch without taking into account all the possible repercussions. The Infestor is getting 2 of it's spells nerfed in one patch. That seems like too much for one patch. A better way to do it is to change fungal this patch. See how it pans out in the metagame and if it still isn't enough then change NP the following patch. This also doesn't account for the fact that Immortals have a higher range now and thus would've posed an even bigger threat to Infestors (armored casters FTL). I'm not sure how NP was affecting ZvP way too much when Korean Zergs were hardly using Infestors to begin with. | ||
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GentleDrill
United Kingdom672 Posts
On September 20 2011 03:22 Dalavita wrote: A couple of a months ago protosses were dominating everything. God damn I get sick of metagame crying... Edit: To keep on topic with the thread. I don't understand why the 7 range of NP caused such an uproar. It's obvious that Blizzard were aiming to change the spell since it was affecting ZvP way to much, and a 7 range compromise can't surely be that much of a disadvantage? Yes, Stalkers and other colossi will be able to snipe the specific infestors easier now. That is the intent of the change... P did well in Homestory Cup 3 and (debateably) Code A July. What else? Have you ever looked at any of the winrate graphs? P has pretty much always been at the bottom, even at the height of Zerg QQ. I'd also love you to cite some examples of important ZvP games where NP meaningfully affected the course of the game. And of course to prove that it was actually overpowered based on those. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
The NP change is annoying, but I don't think it changes anything either. Colossi could already snipe infestors with the same range, and with the lower range, you'll still have bad protoss not FF'ing the infestors and good protoss FFing them. NP was mainly used against colossi, and sometimes void rays or immortals, but they both have less than 7 range as it is. The only thing that has range between 9 to 7 is the thor, but you don't deal with thors with NP due to the usual accompaniment of mass siege tanks. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On September 20 2011 03:22 Dalavita wrote: A couple of a months ago protosses were dominating everything. God damn I get sick of metagame crying... Edit: To keep on topic with the thread. I don't understand why the 7 range of NP caused such an uproar. It's obvious that Blizzard were aiming to change the spell since it was affecting ZvP way to much, and a 7 range compromise can't surely be that much of a disadvantage? Yes, Stalkers and other colossi will be able to snipe the specific infestors easier now. That is the intent of the change... LOL protosses dominating a couple months ago even though they've been below 50% winrate internationally since April and the highest winpeak they've had in the game is still below what terran has achieved multiple times since release. By "dominating a couple months ago" do you mean the best protoss players were actually able to win some tournaments? | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On September 20 2011 05:29 GentleDrill wrote: P did well in Homestory Cup 3 and (debateably) Code A July. What else? Have you ever looked at any of the winrate graphs? P has pretty much always been at the bottom, even at the height of Zerg QQ. I'd also love you to cite some examples of important ZvP games where NP meaningfully affected the course of the game. And of course to prove that it was actually overpowered based on those. There have been less protoss pros at the top level to begin with. If they would have equal tournament win ratios compared to zergs and especially terrans something would be weird. Also, if you're wondering when protosses have been doing well... "So two Protosses walk into a bar, turns out it was actually the finals of a tournament." Around the time when that quote was mentioned in SOTG, i.e april 2011 ish when they were winning tons while still being a small amount of progamers. I don't need to prove anything about infestors. It's blizzard who decides what to nerf and what to buff. You need to talk to them about it. I'm just sick of the metagame whining, and confused as to why people think the two range on NP is such a big deal. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On September 20 2011 05:33 Heavenly wrote: LOL protosses dominating a couple months ago even though they've been below 50% winrate internationally since April and the highest winpeak they've had in the game is still below what terran has achieved multiple times since release. By "dominating a couple months ago" do you mean the best protoss players were actually able to win some tournaments? I think he meant in PvZ. None of the Zergs are denying there may be issues in TvZ, they are only saying it's ridiculous that Protoss think Zerg is OP. The infestor nerfs clearly aren't meant for PvZ. Colossi already could snipe infestors, apparently the NP change is for thors; the FG change still kills everything the same in PvZ. | ||
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LoGikk
19 Posts
edit: grammar | ||
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Avs
Korea (North)857 Posts
Stalkers and whatnot have X range. Infestors generally arent in the front of their army using NP. Now that they need to be closer, you have: 1. Less units firing at the front. 2. Riskier usage of Infestors. 3. In range of several more types of units OR long range ones like Colossus. The -2 range isnt a big deal until you consider how much more micro and how much more risk you have now using Infestors. The good thing? Well apparently people think Zerg = microless race. So this shouldnt be a big deal for them to micro around. The better thing? Zerg have always needed to deal with unit positioning more than any other race in my opinion (as they don't have high ranged units like T or FFs like P). Now how does it affect the Metagame (no the above isnt meta game): Players who don't use NP still wont use NP. These guys arent innovative and have to practice a lot to use it. They are also turned off by the fact that NP get nerfed so its auto crap to them. Players who do use lots of infestors or NP will see this as a nerf and will have to test around it. Because some units auto target infestors with priority, zerg players will likely need to manage 1.5 more groups of units to get infestors close enough (1.5 groups, not 1.5x more units). Engagements and map design are now that much more crucial. | ||
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Huntz
164 Posts
^ FG isn't really getting nerfed, it still kills everything just as fast. It's not so much I agree or not with it, it's that it doesn't change shit. The only things that change are ghosts and vikings take one more FG to kil, but ghosts always owned infestors and you could never FG a ghost against a competent Terran and good Um actually it doesn't kill everything just as fast. That's the point. Sure it still takes 4 fungals to kill a stalker and the same number as before for many other units, but in a battle situation where roaches or zerglings are hitting your stalker the extra ~14 hit points after the second fungal makes a difference. On top of that any out-of-battle chain fungaling on stalkers has to be perfect, as a missed tick means you need 1 more. Same thing for zealots. It's especially important for blink stalkers as you'll actually need 5 fungals (I believe) since any down time gives Protoss a window to spam blink at your infestors and if you aren't overlapping your chains at all its very likely between 1 of them he'll jump on top of you. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
They're balanced parasite over Ultralisk, so both are ok. Parasite now is a bit less strong, and Ultralisk built time slighty decreased. ALso, zerg got better and cheaper scouting + more changelings to kill enemy Siege tanks. | ||
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On September 20 2011 07:29 Avs wrote: So the reason why 2 range is a big deal is because you consider army composition firing lines. Stalkers and whatnot have X range. Infestors generally arent in the front of their army using NP. Now that they need to be closer, you have: 1. Less units firing at the front. 2. Riskier usage of Infestors. 3. In range of several more types of units OR long range ones like Colossus. The -2 range isnt a big deal until you consider how much more micro and how much more risk you have now using Infestors. The good thing? Well apparently people think Zerg = microless race. So this shouldnt be a big deal for them to micro around. The better thing? Zerg have always needed to deal with unit positioning more than any other race in my opinion (as they don't have high ranged units like T or FFs like P). Now how does it affect the Metagame (no the above isnt meta game): Players who don't use NP still wont use NP. These guys arent innovative and have to practice a lot to use it. They are also turned off by the fact that NP get nerfed so its auto crap to them. Players who do use lots of infestors or NP will see this as a nerf and will have to test around it. Because some units auto target infestors with priority, zerg players will likely need to manage 1.5 more groups of units to get infestors close enough (1.5 groups, not 1.5x more units). Engagements and map design are now that much more crucial. That's actually a good point. What units smart-fire or auto prioritize targets, again? I know siege tanks will pick infestors out of a crowd and try smash them to bits, and I hear marauders will do the same, but does anyone know which protoss / terran / zerg units smart-fire and what their priorities are? Not that infestors need Neural Parasite, but if blizzard were looking to keep NP highly position-based and short-range but still useful, lowering the target priority of infestors would help Zerg out a bit. I mean, at 7 range, you HAVE to put your infestors into danger to neural parasite anything worth neural parasiting, but if the solution for enemies to actually take advantage of this required manual target-firing, it'd be a bit more bearable. Maybe they just get a lowered target priority while they're channelling the neural parasite. Iunno! By no means is it necessary, it'd just be something I'd be toying with if I had anything to do with balance  | ||
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Reithan
United States360 Posts
On September 20 2011 07:45 Staboteur wrote:I know siege tanks will pick infestors out of a crowd and try smash them to bits, and I hear marauders will do the same, but does anyone know which protoss / terran / zerg units smart-fire and what their priorities are? Urban myth. Infestors, HTs, Ghosts all have the same priority as any other ground unit. Try it with a friend. Burrow like a bunch of roaches, lings and infestors, get his seige tanks in position and unburrow. The closest units are fired upon first unless your opponent manually targets. I DO know masters zergs that WILL manually target infestors or banes with their tanks, though. Maybe that's where this myth comes from? Also, zerg has NO smart-fire units, and the only toss smart-firing unit is the immortal. Just remember, if you can see the projectile or beam - it's not smart fire. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 20 2011 07:22 Belial88 wrote: I think he meant in PvZ. None of the Zergs are denying there may be issues in TvZ, they are only saying it's ridiculous that Protoss think Zerg is OP. The infestor nerfs clearly aren't meant for PvZ. Colossi already could snipe infestors, apparently the NP change is for thors; the FG change still kills everything the same in PvZ. Im pretty sure, that all the changes in this match are meant for PvZ and PvT, as TvZ is a very balanced matchup, that has like 51% winrate for Terran. The real biggy is PvZ, where Zergs are SMASHING Protoss right now! (and also PvT is Terranfavored) There are really NO issues with TvZ right now. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Zerg are 'smashing' Protoss, after months of it being the other way aruond, because of Zerg taking super fast thirds, and because of Zerg handling stargate better with the recent spore buff. Not because of any units. The warp gate nerf may also contribute to the issue. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 20 2011 17:24 Belial88 wrote: ^ But there are no changes in PvZ. FG still kills everything protoss in the same number of hits, it's only vikings and ghosts that take one more FG. Nothing of Protoss has range 7 or 8, so the NP parasite nerf won't affect that either (Colossi could already snipe infestors). Zerg are 'smashing' Protoss, after months of it being the other way aruond, because of Zerg taking super fast thirds, and because of Zerg handling stargate better with the recent spore buff. Not because of any units. The warp gate nerf may also contribute to the issue. First of all, it's never only about the amount of hits something takes. More damage is always better, because most of the times, you have various amounts of hits from different unit types (in this case usually zergling, roach, fungal, infested terran). Especially vs a race that regenerates half of its life once their out of combat. (yeah, I know, it's usually less, but I think you get what I mean) Second of all, 9range colossi vs 7range NP or 9range feedback vs 7range NP is simply way easier to handle. ("how way? WAY WAY!") Especially when it comes to feedback, the infestors will have 100more energy, as when NP and feedback are launched at the same time... so it's a sure death, while else it was often just a lot of damage to the infestor, while it still controlled Ps colossi. Furthermore the Warp Prism buff and the Immortal buff will both affect ZvP. Especially Warp Prisms are already extremly hard to deal with, as all current zerg strategies don't really use a lot of mobile anti air, apart from the infestor. (And trading a mineral only Warp Prism with 200 life vs energy will be seriously stronger for Protoss now) Making any of these changes for ZvT really wouldn't make any sense at all, as ZvT right now is pretty balanced and the metagame right now is stuck on the terran adding a ton of ghosts and zerg still hasn't found a good answer to that. (like before it was on zergs going infestor/BL and winning against Tank/Marine/Medivac/Viking) | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Second of all, 9range colossi vs 7range NP or 9range feedback vs 7range NP is simply way easier to handle. ("how way? WAY WAY!") Melee units have priority, generally, over the infestor, so just the same as always, your units will not shoot at the infestor unless you target fire it. Colossi could always target fire the infestor with equal range NP, with 7 range it doesn't change anything. Anything short, really, of melee (ling) or roach range doesn't change the dynamics of the battle unless you target fire them, and in the case of the infestor vs colossi, you could always do that. FB doesn't have range 9, and neural still outrages FB. But HT already raped infestors with FB. Making any of these changes for ZvT really wouldn't make any sense at all, as ZvT right now is pretty balanced and the metagame right now is stuck on the terran adding a ton of ghosts and zerg still hasn't found a good answer to that. (like before it was on zergs going infestor/BL and winning against Tank/Marine/Medivac/Viking) i don't disagree with that, but the only difference to FG now is that vikings and ghosts take 1 more FG. Everything from P dies in the same number of FG, except Colossi go from 12 to 13 and VR from something around 8 to 9, in which case FG on it's own wasn't the primary way of dealing with these (NP and IT were more effective). Zerg can still mass infestors to the same utility, Protoss will still have to respond with HT or die. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 20 2011 19:15 Belial88 wrote: Melee units have priority, generally, over the infestor, so just the same as always, your units will not shoot at the infestor unless you target fire it. Colossi could always target fire the infestor with equal range NP, with 7 range it doesn't change anything. Anything short, really, of melee (ling) or roach range doesn't change the dynamics of the battle unless you target fire them, and in the case of the infestor vs colossi, you could always do that. FB doesn't have range 9, and neural still outrages FB. But HT already raped infestors with FB. Feedback has range 9, at least this is what liquipedia says... Also imagine a usual colossus vs infestor+something battle in which zerg neurals some colossi before they get targeted. Before the rangechange Protoss had a hard time sniping the infestors in that situation, because your front row of colossi was neuraled, and the backrow was stuck behind those and couldn't target the infestors right away. Stalkers might were still in battle and something like range 7 or 8 away from the infestors. Now second row colossi as well as stalkers should be able to target channeling infestors. (at least as long as the colossi don't walk in the front row of your army, which is just bad control on purpose, as they will start shooting when the other units are still walking...) It will just be way easier to handle, because all of those rather random factors (units instantly in range, stray shots, units blocking each other, reaction time) will now be more in Protoss favor. Also now you can do the usual colossus backwards micro, and simply get out of range, while still attacking zerglings and roaches (which micro forward, and usually attack from range 0-2) and being out of infestorrange. On September 20 2011 19:15 Belial88 wrote: i don't disagree with that, but the only difference to FG now is that vikings and ghosts take 1 more FG. Everything from P dies in the same number of FG, except Colossi go from 12 to 13 and VR from something around 8 to 9, in which case FG on it's own wasn't the primary way of dealing with these (NP and IT were more effective). Zerg can still mass infestors to the same utility, Protoss will still have to respond with HT or die. I agree that ways to buff protoss would have been a better idea, rather than nerfing zerg, which will affect TvZ to some extend... Yet the Fungal change does make a difference, everytime there is an engagment in which there is more going on than infestors fungaling Protoss. I disagree that Ps need HTs right now. Good Colossus control, positioning, blink and lifting phoenixes are already pretty good vs infestors, though I do agree that this isn't an easy task... | ||
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GentleDrill
United Kingdom672 Posts
On September 20 2011 06:29 Dalavita wrote: There have been less protoss pros at the top level to begin with. If they would have equal tournament win ratios compared to zergs and especially terrans something would be weird. Also, if you're wondering when protosses have been doing well... "So two Protosses walk into a bar, turns out it was actually the finals of a tournament." Around the time when that quote was mentioned in SOTG, i.e april 2011 ish when they were winning tons while still being a small amount of progamers. I don't need to prove anything about infestors. It's blizzard who decides what to nerf and what to buff. You need to talk to them about it. I'm just sick of the metagame whining, and confused as to why people think the two range on NP is such a big deal. I'm looking at the Liquipedia Major and Premier tournament pages and there were PvP finals at MLG Dallas and the Dreamhack Stockholm Invitational, and there were also some Ps in finals of other tournaments around that time. The thing is, that's April. That is not "a couple of months ago". That's half a year, half of the entire life of Starcraft 2. It's too long ago to be relevant. The winrate graphs, as far as I know, work off percentages of games won, not tournaments won, so saying that there were less Protoss at the top level means nothing. And yes, you DO need to prove something about Infestors. You said "[Neural Parasite] was affecting ZvP way to much". Prove it. "Blizzard are patching it" isn't proof, because the issue is with the very fact that it's being patched when many (including myself) feel it's not something that needs changing. | ||
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