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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 19 2011 13:07 Belial88 wrote:
^ What progamers ever said 1/1/1 was imbalanced?
I'd prefer if they waited a few months longer for 1/1/1. There's been plenty of games of people holding 1/1/1, it's not impossible to win against. Not saying it isn't imbalanced, but this knee-jerk reaction is too much. I'd like to see what happens this season in GSL about it.
Plenty of them? SlayersAlicia, MVP, Cella, Puzzle. Blizzard have nerfed plenty of things that aren't "impossible" to win against but are amazingly hard to defend. They're nerfing 11/11 rax with the 5 second build time but it's not like it won versus zerg now anywhere near as often as 1-1-1 does. There's a reason the Korean Terrans resort to it or another all-in almost every single time it comes down to important deciding games.
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On September 19 2011 13:07 Belial88 wrote:
^ What progamers ever said 1/1/1 was imbalanced?
I'd prefer if they waited a few months longer for 1/1/1. There's been plenty of games of people holding 1/1/1, it's not impossible to win against. Not saying it isn't imbalanced, but this knee-jerk reaction is too much. I'd like to see what happens this season in GSL about it.
pretty sure, among others, IMMVP.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/jpw38/immvp_on_111_as_translated_by_milkis/
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On September 19 2011 13:07 Belial88 wrote:
^ What progamers ever said 1/1/1 was imbalanced?
I'd prefer if they waited a few months longer for 1/1/1. There's been plenty of games of people holding 1/1/1, it's not impossible to win against. Not saying it isn't imbalanced, but this knee-jerk reaction is too much. I'd like to see what happens this season in GSL about it.
Well, plenty of korean terran pros have voiced their opinion how its incredible strong (borderline too strong). I think 1 1 1 will only get stronger once variations become more realized. My masters terran friend has a 2 1 2 variation that he has only lost once in the last month (heavy heavy banshee) vs protoss. He himself admits (his opinion) that the build feels way too strong and was a little surprised it got no real attention in the patch. I would think that August GSL was a real indication to where the power table is going. Sure 1 1 1 can be defeated but it seems like it requires a blind counter build AND requires terran to make mistakes AND protoss to make zero mistakes. I dont think that combination is fair
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On September 19 2011 13:07 Belial88 wrote:
^ What progamers ever said 1/1/1 was imbalanced?
I'd prefer if they waited a few months longer for 1/1/1. There's been plenty of games of people holding 1/1/1, it's not impossible to win against. Not saying it isn't imbalanced, but this knee-jerk reaction is too much. I'd like to see what happens this season in GSL about it.
Maybe you didn't get a chance to read Waxangel's editorial on dead presidents...
I dont even play protoss but it really burns my blood a bit when they get crushed by this stupid all-in. You can also refer to any of the State of the Game episodes lately to hear what the pros think about it, i.e. LiquidTyler and Incontrol.
I'm not saying there's a super game imbalanced, just a insane timing that is difficult to stop without taking a 50-50 risk to stop.
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On September 19 2011 11:46 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a Chargelots don't counter infestors per se, it's that chargelots are half decent, especially compared to stalkers. LiquidTyler and on the SoTG they have discussed that you should be massing chargelots against infestors. The sheer number of units you'd have than if those were stalkers would overwhelm infestors, they do more damage, take more FG to kill, are useful against lings even when FG'd. Obviously, HT with FB are preferable, and psi storm is nice as well, nor are they difficult to use against fatty infestors... but when you have to make your cheap filler units, chargelots are infinitely better than more stalkers.
Granted, at that point in the game there is no reason not to get Charge for your Zealots, but massing them in conjunction with High Templar sounds pretty bad to me. I don't know about other Zergs, but when I see High Templar tech hit the field I switch straight into Roaches instead of Lings to make up the meat of my army. If you're still sticking with Lings by that point it doesn't matter if they are using Chargelots of Stalkers or whatever the Storm will melt them into oblivion no matter what. So lets say I'm switching into Roaches over Lings, sadly Chargelots aren't specifically great against Roaches, sure they're still good to have, but if I was playing as Protoss I wouldn't really think to be cutting my Stalker production any unless the Zerg was trying to say, transitioning from Ling/Infestor into Ultralisks, in which case Zealots are awesome.
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On September 19 2011 13:00 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Did anything in the patch directly address the 1/1/1?
I'm a bit confused about the direction Blizzard is taking this game because they're not really listening to the progamers when it comes to racial balance issues.
I'd say the immortal buff is pretty clearly directed at making it easier to snipe tanks during the push, making it mechanically easier to pull off one of the 1-1-1's counter-builds, like 1gate FE -> 5gate robo.
The problem is that the buff doesn't do anything to address those counter-builds losing outright to about half of T's remaining arsenal. I feel like they're addressing a minor problem rather than the real one, which is the unavoidable coin-flip that the threat of 1-1-1 introduces. Immortal range won't fix that.
On September 19 2011 13:07 Belial88 wrote:
^ What progamers ever said 1/1/1 was imbalanced?
IMMVP.
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GSL spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +did MC just counter Infestors with colossi? Yes he did! Found that rightclick to kill infestors! 
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On September 19 2011 15:13 Big J wrote:GSL spoiler + Show Spoiler +did MC just counter Infestors with colossi? Yes he did! Found that rightclick to kill infestors!
+ Show Spoiler +
This like people complaining about Ghosts after watching Thorzain vs Hero @ Dreamhack. The zerg does a 2base attack which fails hard, MC gets a super fast third and wins the game like he should...Doesn't matter if you counter your opponent, if you are that far behind then you will just lose anyway because he has more stuff than you
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Will there be any ladder map changes with 1.4? Or will we have to wait for season 4?
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I hope blizzard watches GSL.
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On September 19 2011 15:54 izgodlee wrote:
I hope blizzard watches GSL.
They won't start watching GSL until they find out that it consists of 32 Terrans. Kidding aside, I am fearful that this patch won't do much for PvT or extremely high level PvZ.
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The fact that you got the cost of both robo and stargate wrong completely undermines anything you said.
They're both cheaper than you think, so your conclusion is ironically stronger, but my confidence in your ability to make even the most rudimentary analysis is pretty low after reading that.
EDIT: And spire, and pool. I don't even know what race you play anymore.
EDIT 2: Oh you're factoring in the cost of the drone. Right. Well we know you're Zerg, at least.
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On September 19 2011 15:34 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 15:13 Big J wrote:GSL spoiler + Show Spoiler +did MC just counter Infestors with colossi? Yes he did! Found that rightclick to kill infestors! + Show Spoiler +
This like people complaining about Ghosts after watching Thorzain vs Hero @ Dreamhack. The zerg does a 2base attack which fails hard, MC gets a super fast third and wins the game like he should...Doesn't matter if you counter your opponent, if you are that far behind then you will just lose anyway because he has more stuff than you
+ Show Spoiler +
So now you know how zergs feel when people say infestors are OP because their favourite Protoss lost after a failed 6 gate :p
Note that I didn't watch game 2 and 3, yes I'm aware of the result (and very happy about it :p)
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On September 19 2011 07:19 pluvos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 07:11 eourcs wrote:On September 19 2011 07:06 Joseph123 wrote:On September 19 2011 07:00 Protosnake wrote:It seems like just making templar move speed the same as ghost and infestor move speed would solve a lot of these caster issues without actually nerfing neural or emp. My though exactly. Buffing HT speed would be much more logical well what can be said.. both ghost and infestor have research for +25 energy and templars don't both infestor and ghost have bigger range than ht both infestor and ghost are faster than ht both infestor and ghost have more hp than ht and I don't see any logic in ht being slower than the other 2 casters, not at all, since it is the unit with the least hp My ghosts can't morph into fucking super power balls of energy that deal and tank a shitton of damage. stop. comparing. casters. directly. they dont have to morph becuase they already tank a decent amount (no specific armor type) and can deal damage with both snipe and autoattack. and not comparing units even if they are apple and oranges is retarded, you still have to balance them out even if they dont serve the exact same purpose.
Exactly, you balance them out thinking about the entirety of the race and compare it to the other races, which is why direct comparisons between the casters is silly. And the guy you quoted was responding to such a direct comparison.
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On September 19 2011 16:18 Belisarius wrote:
The fact that you got the cost of both robo and stargate wrong completely undermines anything you said.
They're both cheaper than you think, so your conclusion is ironically stronger, but my confidence in your ability to make even the most rudimentary analysis is pretty low after reading that.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Robotics_Facility
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Stargate
Sorry, misread Liquipedia, I'll edit. Though, as you stated, my error is in my favor, in this case.
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On September 19 2011 07:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 07:11 eourcs wrote:On September 19 2011 07:06 Joseph123 wrote:On September 19 2011 07:00 Protosnake wrote:It seems like just making templar move speed the same as ghost and infestor move speed would solve a lot of these caster issues without actually nerfing neural or emp. My though exactly. Buffing HT speed would be much more logical well what can be said.. both ghost and infestor have research for +25 energy and templars don't both infestor and ghost have bigger range than ht both infestor and ghost are faster than ht both infestor and ghost have more hp than ht and I don't see any logic in ht being slower than the other 2 casters, not at all, since it is the unit with the least hp My ghosts can't morph into fucking super power balls of energy that deal and tank a shitton of damage. stop. comparing. casters. directly. Why shouldn't we? Feedback is the most effective counter to the Ghost, considering they have health close a marauder and take bonus damage from nothing. High Templar being a slow as a Thor is silly. You have to invest 350 gas to have the option to build a high templar. Ghost require an investment of 50 gas. Seriously, every time a Protoss player says Ghosts are OP, every terran replies "feedback". Then we say, "the templar goes the same speed as a Thor, that is to slow" and the response is, "Get better, get a WP and ferry them my ghosts." Also, why does EMP and Fungal reveal cloaked units? Storm doesn't, and protoss have to pay for that?
Oh god yes, thank you for mentioning that.
The amount of detection that Terran have is ridiculous. Really such a robust, swiss army knife race. Unit and ability available for every situation.
While you're at it, you should ask why the range for scan is so damned huge as well. It's seriously massive.
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When I am matched versus terran I always go 3 gate Voidray all in just because of the hate I have for the race at the moment. And I win 95% of the time and that just makes me smile, because:
- it counters 1-1-1 (at least the ones executed at diamond) so they thought it's an easy win game and surprise!
- terran just rage that protoss is imba with powerful unstoppable units
- they curse at me and ask me to learn to play even thought all they do is 1 rax expand or 1-1-1
So yeah terrans, if you meet me on ladder expect voidrays. I am not proud of the one build play, but it's the one that makes me feel good playing versus such a "swiss army knife" and I have to play a skinny race.
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On September 19 2011 07:11 eourcs wrote:
My ghosts can't morph into fucking super power balls of energy that deal and tank a shitton of damage.
stop. comparing. casters. directly.
I'd accept an archon nerf if Blizzard buffed HT's at the same time to make them equal to other races' spellcasters. HTs are more versatile, have a higher potential in the hands of a skilled player, and are vastly more fun to use.
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Right now, NP is 9 cast range, with an additional 5 in which the controlled unit can move, giving an 'operational range' of 14.
If they reduce the cast range by 2, will this 'operational range' be decreased by 2 as well, making this effectively a DOUBLE nerf to NP? Or will we keep the 14 'operational range'?
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EPT
