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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 19 2011 10:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 09:42 Daralii wrote:On September 19 2011 09:39 Jesushooves wrote:On September 19 2011 09:34 Huntz wrote:because without ghosts you die This just isn't true. What counters high templar immortal then? Well controlled marines, banshees. and/or ghosts work too...
He asked how it was possible to deal with immortal/HT without ghosts.
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On September 19 2011 10:22 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 10:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 19 2011 09:42 Daralii wrote:On September 19 2011 09:39 Jesushooves wrote:On September 19 2011 09:34 Huntz wrote:because without ghosts you die This just isn't true. What counters high templar immortal then? Well controlled marines, banshees. and/or ghosts work too... He asked how it was possible to deal with immortal/HT without ghosts.
very easily? honestly, where in the win statistics was terran getting annihilated by immortals and HTs? it's only the past few months that ghosts have been making a big appearance. i don't recall terrans getting annihilated before that, and protoss has been nerfed heavily since then.
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On September 18 2011 21:00 cbueno wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 20:51 MilesTeg wrote:On September 18 2011 20:43 Vardant wrote:On September 18 2011 20:35 UniQ.eu wrote:
What confuses me the most is that everyone in this thread seems to think that changes come as a response to "whining" ir "QQing". How come it doesn't strike you that changes might, in fact, come to fix *drumroll* the balance of the game? ? Because EMP would have been fixed ages ago, if this was true. No, that's actually a good example for his point. People have been complaining about ghosts for very long, and they haven't nerfed it because Blizzard knows what they are doing better than us. ROFL...... If they did, they wouldnt nerf and buff the same units back and forth overtime. No, its obvious they dont know. If they didnt nerf and buff the same units overtime then you may say they do know but since there are many of the same units that have been nerfed and buffed after each patch then this says A LOT about how clueless they are.... ROFL
If you are gonna cite information then please at least dig a little information before you post.
-There have been 55 different Changes that occured over all of the patches that affected a total of 32 units and buildings.
-There were 8 units/buildings that were affected in at least two patches with a total of 9 changes
(BC, Bunker, ghost, infestor, reaper, Depo, VRay, zealot, and thor)
-There were 3 units/buildings that were affected in at least 3 patches with a total of 5 changes.
(Bunker, infestor, and thor)
-1 Unit has ever been patched backward meaning the change that did in another patch went the opposite direction that a previous patch was going.
(Thor's strike cannons was put on cooldown then reversed back to energy)
Even the bunkers changes all flowed in the same direction (Change 1: BT 30-35 Change2: BT 35-40 Change 3: Salvage 100-75)
This does not include the most recent patch nor anything from the beta (as a beta is supposed to change back and forth frequently)
All information here I got directly from our very own liquipedia so I didn't have to go very far and neither did you.
+ Show Spoiler +
On the changes I'm glad that you can NP massive again as that is most likely the only thing you would ever want to NP. Although the range saddens me.. Come on at least 8.
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On September 19 2011 10:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 10:07 rpgalon wrote:On September 19 2011 10:06 itsjuspeter wrote:On September 19 2011 09:58 rpgalon wrote:On September 19 2011 09:32 Jesushooves wrote:On September 19 2011 09:24 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2011 09:01 fant0m wrote:On September 19 2011 08:50 urashimakt wrote:On September 19 2011 08:40 fant0m wrote:On September 19 2011 07:57 Plansix wrote:
Why shouldn't we? Feedback is the most effective counter to the Ghost, considering they have health close a marauder and take bonus damage from nothing. High Templar being a slow as a Thor is silly. You have to invest 350 gas to have the option to build a high templar. Ghost require an investment of 50 gas.
100 gas* 50 gas*. The Ghost Academy costs 150 minerals and 50 gas, which is what he was getting at. Ghost Academy in the Liquipedia Ah you're right, I didn't read his post carefully enough. Though if you aren't even counting the cost of a tech lab, I don't know why you would count warp gates (I assume that's where he's getting the last 50 gas from, since twilight council+templar archives is 300 gas from what I'm looking at). And tbh I didn't realize the ghost academy was only 50 gas. That's kind of absurd.... My bad, I thought it was 350 for some reason, I might have been adding warpgate. My jaw dropped when I saw the price of the Ghost Academy. There is no reason for that building to cost a little as it does. Think about it, to tech switch to ghosts costs 150 gas for your first EMP. And the reason I don't count tech labs is if the terran is going bio, he is going to have them. Every protoss gets warpgate and sentries. The point of the matter is what you need to cut to get the higher tech unit. For templar without storm, its 300 gas. For Ghost with EMP, its 50 gas. The Ghost is like this weird forgotten corner of the game from the beta. Like back when reactors built nearly instantly and warpgate had a 40 second research time. If terran is going bio, he isn't tech switching, the tech switch from anything terran to ghosts is never as scary as a switch to colossus from zealot archon, or broodlord infestor from muta ling bane. The reason the tech for ghosts is so cheap is because they aren't game changing unless protoss goes mass immortal or mass high templar, or both, because without ghosts you die. "ghosts aren't game changing" what? they are one of the most game changing units in the game... 150/50 can't even be called "tech switch". lol it's like, I didn't make one stalker (125/50) so I can tech switch to templars.... the fact that many people here didn't even suspected/believed that the ghost academy is only 50 gas just show how this cost is disgustingly low I'm surprised some people didn't even know the GA is only 50 gas... it truly is disgusting. the only thing I can think of that can try to justify the amazing low cost is because maybe blizzard want mass nukes. but 50 gas for EMP is bullshit, it needs to be a 200/200 research. And its not like the Ghost does bad DPS either. They do 10 damage + 10 to light at 6 range, with the same rate of fire as the marauder. Basically its is a marauder, but with the damage bonus to light, and never takes extra damage from anything. And they are 2 supply, because we can't have the terran getting supply blocked.
But they don't have stim, so they have worse dps than a marauder while costing 200/100 each to make. I'd be fine with making the ghost academy cost more or making EMP have to be researched, but they have terrible dps for their cost.
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On September 19 2011 10:24 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 10:22 Daralii wrote:On September 19 2011 10:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 19 2011 09:42 Daralii wrote:On September 19 2011 09:39 Jesushooves wrote:On September 19 2011 09:34 Huntz wrote:because without ghosts you die This just isn't true. What counters high templar immortal then? Well controlled marines, banshees. and/or ghosts work too... He asked how it was possible to deal with immortal/HT without ghosts. very easily? honestly, where in the win statistics was terran getting annihilated by immortals and HTs? it's only the past few months that ghosts have been making a big appearance. i don't recall terrans getting annihilated before that, and protoss has been nerfed heavily since then.
I gave him two examples of units that deal with immortal/HT that aren't ghosts. I never said that ghosts didn't make engagements incredibly terran-favored.
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On September 19 2011 09:00 Reithan wrote:
When did that change? Because I am 100%+ certain it used it.
Holy crap! I just tried it and it doesn't reveal cloak anymore! I know it did at some point in the beta.
Why the hell is the HT the only caster who's spells DON'T reveal cloaked units?? WTF BLIZZARD!?
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On September 19 2011 10:32 MrSalamandra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 10:18 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2011 10:07 rpgalon wrote:On September 19 2011 10:06 itsjuspeter wrote:On September 19 2011 09:58 rpgalon wrote:On September 19 2011 09:32 Jesushooves wrote:On September 19 2011 09:24 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2011 09:01 fant0m wrote:On September 19 2011 08:50 urashimakt wrote:On September 19 2011 08:40 fant0m wrote:
[quote]
100 gas* 50 gas*. The Ghost Academy costs 150 minerals and 50 gas, which is what he was getting at. Ghost Academy in the Liquipedia Ah you're right, I didn't read his post carefully enough. Though if you aren't even counting the cost of a tech lab, I don't know why you would count warp gates (I assume that's where he's getting the last 50 gas from, since twilight council+templar archives is 300 gas from what I'm looking at). And tbh I didn't realize the ghost academy was only 50 gas. That's kind of absurd.... My bad, I thought it was 350 for some reason, I might have been adding warpgate. My jaw dropped when I saw the price of the Ghost Academy. There is no reason for that building to cost a little as it does. Think about it, to tech switch to ghosts costs 150 gas for your first EMP. And the reason I don't count tech labs is if the terran is going bio, he is going to have them. Every protoss gets warpgate and sentries. The point of the matter is what you need to cut to get the higher tech unit. For templar without storm, its 300 gas. For Ghost with EMP, its 50 gas. The Ghost is like this weird forgotten corner of the game from the beta. Like back when reactors built nearly instantly and warpgate had a 40 second research time. If terran is going bio, he isn't tech switching, the tech switch from anything terran to ghosts is never as scary as a switch to colossus from zealot archon, or broodlord infestor from muta ling bane. The reason the tech for ghosts is so cheap is because they aren't game changing unless protoss goes mass immortal or mass high templar, or both, because without ghosts you die. "ghosts aren't game changing" what? they are one of the most game changing units in the game... 150/50 can't even be called "tech switch". lol it's like, I didn't make one stalker (125/50) so I can tech switch to templars.... the fact that many people here didn't even suspected/believed that the ghost academy is only 50 gas just show how this cost is disgustingly low I'm surprised some people didn't even know the GA is only 50 gas... it truly is disgusting. the only thing I can think of that can try to justify the amazing low cost is because maybe blizzard want mass nukes. but 50 gas for EMP is bullshit, it needs to be a 200/200 research. And its not like the Ghost does bad DPS either. They do 10 damage + 10 to light at 6 range, with the same rate of fire as the marauder. Basically its is a marauder, but with the damage bonus to light, and never takes extra damage from anything. And they are 2 supply, because we can't have the terran getting supply blocked. But they don't have stim, so they have worse dps than a marauder while costing 200/100 each to make. I'd be fine with making the ghost academy cost more or making EMP have to be researched, but they have terrible dps for their cost.
at least they have a dps... I always LoL when I see a scv killing a templar that was used for storm drop and did not manage to get away.
by the way, scv should be 40 hp.... =P
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On September 19 2011 10:32 MrSalamandra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 10:18 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2011 10:07 rpgalon wrote:On September 19 2011 10:06 itsjuspeter wrote:On September 19 2011 09:58 rpgalon wrote:On September 19 2011 09:32 Jesushooves wrote:On September 19 2011 09:24 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2011 09:01 fant0m wrote:On September 19 2011 08:50 urashimakt wrote:On September 19 2011 08:40 fant0m wrote:
[quote]
100 gas* 50 gas*. The Ghost Academy costs 150 minerals and 50 gas, which is what he was getting at. Ghost Academy in the Liquipedia Ah you're right, I didn't read his post carefully enough. Though if you aren't even counting the cost of a tech lab, I don't know why you would count warp gates (I assume that's where he's getting the last 50 gas from, since twilight council+templar archives is 300 gas from what I'm looking at). And tbh I didn't realize the ghost academy was only 50 gas. That's kind of absurd.... My bad, I thought it was 350 for some reason, I might have been adding warpgate. My jaw dropped when I saw the price of the Ghost Academy. There is no reason for that building to cost a little as it does. Think about it, to tech switch to ghosts costs 150 gas for your first EMP. And the reason I don't count tech labs is if the terran is going bio, he is going to have them. Every protoss gets warpgate and sentries. The point of the matter is what you need to cut to get the higher tech unit. For templar without storm, its 300 gas. For Ghost with EMP, its 50 gas. The Ghost is like this weird forgotten corner of the game from the beta. Like back when reactors built nearly instantly and warpgate had a 40 second research time. If terran is going bio, he isn't tech switching, the tech switch from anything terran to ghosts is never as scary as a switch to colossus from zealot archon, or broodlord infestor from muta ling bane. The reason the tech for ghosts is so cheap is because they aren't game changing unless protoss goes mass immortal or mass high templar, or both, because without ghosts you die. "ghosts aren't game changing" what? they are one of the most game changing units in the game... 150/50 can't even be called "tech switch". lol it's like, I didn't make one stalker (125/50) so I can tech switch to templars.... the fact that many people here didn't even suspected/believed that the ghost academy is only 50 gas just show how this cost is disgustingly low I'm surprised some people didn't even know the GA is only 50 gas... it truly is disgusting. the only thing I can think of that can try to justify the amazing low cost is because maybe blizzard want mass nukes. but 50 gas for EMP is bullshit, it needs to be a 200/200 research. And its not like the Ghost does bad DPS either. They do 10 damage + 10 to light at 6 range, with the same rate of fire as the marauder. Basically its is a marauder, but with the damage bonus to light, and never takes extra damage from anything. And they are 2 supply, because we can't have the terran getting supply blocked. But they don't have stim, so they have worse dps than a marauder while costing 200/100 each to make. I'd be fine with making the ghost academy cost more or making EMP have to be researched, but they have terrible dps for their cost.
I would be ok with a good EMP tweek. If it didn't reveal cloak and did way less shield damage, I would be fine with it.
I still wants HTs to go faster. I don't know why they go so slow.
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On September 19 2011 10:37 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 10:32 MrSalamandra wrote:On September 19 2011 10:18 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2011 10:07 rpgalon wrote:On September 19 2011 10:06 itsjuspeter wrote:On September 19 2011 09:58 rpgalon wrote:On September 19 2011 09:32 Jesushooves wrote:On September 19 2011 09:24 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2011 09:01 fant0m wrote:On September 19 2011 08:50 urashimakt wrote:[quote] 50 gas*. The Ghost Academy costs 150 minerals and 50 gas, which is what he was getting at. Ghost Academy in the Liquipedia Ah you're right, I didn't read his post carefully enough. Though if you aren't even counting the cost of a tech lab, I don't know why you would count warp gates (I assume that's where he's getting the last 50 gas from, since twilight council+templar archives is 300 gas from what I'm looking at). And tbh I didn't realize the ghost academy was only 50 gas. That's kind of absurd.... My bad, I thought it was 350 for some reason, I might have been adding warpgate. My jaw dropped when I saw the price of the Ghost Academy. There is no reason for that building to cost a little as it does. Think about it, to tech switch to ghosts costs 150 gas for your first EMP. And the reason I don't count tech labs is if the terran is going bio, he is going to have them. Every protoss gets warpgate and sentries. The point of the matter is what you need to cut to get the higher tech unit. For templar without storm, its 300 gas. For Ghost with EMP, its 50 gas. The Ghost is like this weird forgotten corner of the game from the beta. Like back when reactors built nearly instantly and warpgate had a 40 second research time. If terran is going bio, he isn't tech switching, the tech switch from anything terran to ghosts is never as scary as a switch to colossus from zealot archon, or broodlord infestor from muta ling bane. The reason the tech for ghosts is so cheap is because they aren't game changing unless protoss goes mass immortal or mass high templar, or both, because without ghosts you die. "ghosts aren't game changing" what? they are one of the most game changing units in the game... 150/50 can't even be called "tech switch". lol it's like, I didn't make one stalker (125/50) so I can tech switch to templars.... the fact that many people here didn't even suspected/believed that the ghost academy is only 50 gas just show how this cost is disgustingly low I'm surprised some people didn't even know the GA is only 50 gas... it truly is disgusting. the only thing I can think of that can try to justify the amazing low cost is because maybe blizzard want mass nukes. but 50 gas for EMP is bullshit, it needs to be a 200/200 research. And its not like the Ghost does bad DPS either. They do 10 damage + 10 to light at 6 range, with the same rate of fire as the marauder. Basically its is a marauder, but with the damage bonus to light, and never takes extra damage from anything. And they are 2 supply, because we can't have the terran getting supply blocked. But they don't have stim, so they have worse dps than a marauder while costing 200/100 each to make. I'd be fine with making the ghost academy cost more or making EMP have to be researched, but they have terrible dps for their cost. at least they have a dps... I always LoL when I see an scv killing a templar that was used for storm drop and did not manage to get away. by the way, scv should be 40 hp.... =P
I'm certainly not saying that they should do more dps, just that they don't have good dps.
I'm actually not sure why scvs have more hp than the others. They don't regen health, but they can be repaired. I don't think that's a particularly big deal though. Would make a slight different when people pull all their scvs though.
On September 19 2011 10:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 10:32 MrSalamandra wrote:On September 19 2011 10:18 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2011 10:07 rpgalon wrote:On September 19 2011 10:06 itsjuspeter wrote:On September 19 2011 09:58 rpgalon wrote:On September 19 2011 09:32 Jesushooves wrote:On September 19 2011 09:24 Plansix wrote:On September 19 2011 09:01 fant0m wrote:On September 19 2011 08:50 urashimakt wrote:[quote] 50 gas*. The Ghost Academy costs 150 minerals and 50 gas, which is what he was getting at. Ghost Academy in the Liquipedia Ah you're right, I didn't read his post carefully enough. Though if you aren't even counting the cost of a tech lab, I don't know why you would count warp gates (I assume that's where he's getting the last 50 gas from, since twilight council+templar archives is 300 gas from what I'm looking at). And tbh I didn't realize the ghost academy was only 50 gas. That's kind of absurd.... My bad, I thought it was 350 for some reason, I might have been adding warpgate. My jaw dropped when I saw the price of the Ghost Academy. There is no reason for that building to cost a little as it does. Think about it, to tech switch to ghosts costs 150 gas for your first EMP. And the reason I don't count tech labs is if the terran is going bio, he is going to have them. Every protoss gets warpgate and sentries. The point of the matter is what you need to cut to get the higher tech unit. For templar without storm, its 300 gas. For Ghost with EMP, its 50 gas. The Ghost is like this weird forgotten corner of the game from the beta. Like back when reactors built nearly instantly and warpgate had a 40 second research time. If terran is going bio, he isn't tech switching, the tech switch from anything terran to ghosts is never as scary as a switch to colossus from zealot archon, or broodlord infestor from muta ling bane. The reason the tech for ghosts is so cheap is because they aren't game changing unless protoss goes mass immortal or mass high templar, or both, because without ghosts you die. "ghosts aren't game changing" what? they are one of the most game changing units in the game... 150/50 can't even be called "tech switch". lol it's like, I didn't make one stalker (125/50) so I can tech switch to templars.... the fact that many people here didn't even suspected/believed that the ghost academy is only 50 gas just show how this cost is disgustingly low I'm surprised some people didn't even know the GA is only 50 gas... it truly is disgusting. the only thing I can think of that can try to justify the amazing low cost is because maybe blizzard want mass nukes. but 50 gas for EMP is bullshit, it needs to be a 200/200 research. And its not like the Ghost does bad DPS either. They do 10 damage + 10 to light at 6 range, with the same rate of fire as the marauder. Basically its is a marauder, but with the damage bonus to light, and never takes extra damage from anything. And they are 2 supply, because we can't have the terran getting supply blocked. But they don't have stim, so they have worse dps than a marauder while costing 200/100 each to make. I'd be fine with making the ghost academy cost more or making EMP have to be researched, but they have terrible dps for their cost. I would be ok with a good EMP tweek. If it didn't reveal cloak and did way less shield damage, I would be fine with it. I still wants HTs to go faster. I don't know why they go so slow.
They really should just go at the standard speed of 2.25. They certainly shouldn't be quick, but 1.88 is a bit too slow.
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On September 19 2011 10:26 terranghost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 21:00 cbueno wrote:On September 18 2011 20:51 MilesTeg wrote:On September 18 2011 20:43 Vardant wrote:On September 18 2011 20:35 UniQ.eu wrote:
What confuses me the most is that everyone in this thread seems to think that changes come as a response to "whining" ir "QQing". How come it doesn't strike you that changes might, in fact, come to fix *drumroll* the balance of the game? ? Because EMP would have been fixed ages ago, if this was true. No, that's actually a good example for his point. People have been complaining about ghosts for very long, and they haven't nerfed it because Blizzard knows what they are doing better than us. ROFL...... If they did, they wouldnt nerf and buff the same units back and forth overtime. No, its obvious they dont know. If they didnt nerf and buff the same units overtime then you may say they do know but since there are many of the same units that have been nerfed and buffed after each patch then this says A LOT about how clueless they are.... ROFL If you are gonna cite information then please at least dig a little information before you post. -There have been 55 different Changes that occured over all of the patches that affected a total of 32 units and buildings. -There were 8 units/buildings that were affected in at least two patches with a total of 9 changes (BC, Bunker, ghost, infestor, reaper, Depo, VRay, zealot, and thor) -There were 3 units/buildings that were affected in at least 3 patches with a total of 5 changes. (Bunker, infestor, and thor) -1 Unit has ever been patched backward meaning the change that did in another patch went the opposite direction that a previous patch was going. (Thor's strike cannons was put on cooldown then reversed back to energy) Even the bunkers changes all flowed in the same direction (Change 1: BT 30-35 Change2: BT 35-40 Change 3: Salvage 100-75) This does not include the most recent patch nor anything from the beta (as a beta is supposed to change back and forth frequently) All information here I got directly from our very own liquipedia so I didn't have to go very far and neither did you. + Show Spoiler +On the changes I'm glad that you can NP massive again as that is most likely the only thing you would ever want to NP. Although the range saddens me.. Come on at least 8.
Zealot gateway build time was changed and reversed a lot.
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zealot gateway build change is always related to warpgate tech or warpgate build time.....
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On September 19 2011 11:14 skrzmark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 10:26 terranghost wrote:On September 18 2011 21:00 cbueno wrote:On September 18 2011 20:51 MilesTeg wrote:On September 18 2011 20:43 Vardant wrote:On September 18 2011 20:35 UniQ.eu wrote:
What confuses me the most is that everyone in this thread seems to think that changes come as a response to "whining" ir "QQing". How come it doesn't strike you that changes might, in fact, come to fix *drumroll* the balance of the game? ? Because EMP would have been fixed ages ago, if this was true. No, that's actually a good example for his point. People have been complaining about ghosts for very long, and they haven't nerfed it because Blizzard knows what they are doing better than us. ROFL...... If they did, they wouldnt nerf and buff the same units back and forth overtime. No, its obvious they dont know. If they didnt nerf and buff the same units overtime then you may say they do know but since there are many of the same units that have been nerfed and buffed after each patch then this says A LOT about how clueless they are.... ROFL If you are gonna cite information then please at least dig a little information before you post. -There have been 55 different Changes that occured over all of the patches that affected a total of 32 units and buildings. -There were 8 units/buildings that were affected in at least two patches with a total of 9 changes (BC, Bunker, ghost, infestor, reaper, Depo, VRay, zealot, and thor) -There were 3 units/buildings that were affected in at least 3 patches with a total of 5 changes. (Bunker, infestor, and thor) -1 Unit has ever been patched backward meaning the change that did in another patch went the opposite direction that a previous patch was going. (Thor's strike cannons was put on cooldown then reversed back to energy) Even the bunkers changes all flowed in the same direction (Change 1: BT 30-35 Change2: BT 35-40 Change 3: Salvage 100-75) This does not include the most recent patch nor anything from the beta (as a beta is supposed to change back and forth frequently) All information here I got directly from our very own liquipedia so I didn't have to go very far and neither did you. + Show Spoiler +On the changes I'm glad that you can NP massive again as that is most likely the only thing you would ever want to NP. Although the range saddens me.. Come on at least 8. Zealot gateway build time was changed and reversed a lot.
He did say:
This does not include the most recent patch nor anything from the beta (as a beta is supposed to change back and forth frequently)
Personally, I think Blizzard knows much more about the game than many people give them credit for. It's a nice thing that the PTR exists, though; there are things that are only apparent through testing. I approve of the changes, but immortal comps are going to be a little scary for me in ZvP. Maybe this will finally convert me to infestor/ling. 
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On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a
Chargelots don't counter infestors per se, it's that chargelots are half decent, especially compared to stalkers.
LiquidTyler and on the SoTG they have discussed that you should be massing chargelots against infestors. The sheer number of units you'd have than if those were stalkers would overwhelm infestors, they do more damage, take more FG to kill, are useful against lings even when FG'd. Obviously, HT with FB are preferable, and psi storm is nice as well, nor are they difficult to use against fatty infestors... but when you have to make your cheap filler units, chargelots are infinitely better than more stalkers.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 19 2011 11:14 skrzmark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 10:26 terranghost wrote:On September 18 2011 21:00 cbueno wrote:On September 18 2011 20:51 MilesTeg wrote:On September 18 2011 20:43 Vardant wrote:On September 18 2011 20:35 UniQ.eu wrote:
What confuses me the most is that everyone in this thread seems to think that changes come as a response to "whining" ir "QQing". How come it doesn't strike you that changes might, in fact, come to fix *drumroll* the balance of the game? ? Because EMP would have been fixed ages ago, if this was true. No, that's actually a good example for his point. People have been complaining about ghosts for very long, and they haven't nerfed it because Blizzard knows what they are doing better than us. ROFL...... If they did, they wouldnt nerf and buff the same units back and forth overtime. No, its obvious they dont know. If they didnt nerf and buff the same units overtime then you may say they do know but since there are many of the same units that have been nerfed and buffed after each patch then this says A LOT about how clueless they are.... ROFL If you are gonna cite information then please at least dig a little information before you post. -There have been 55 different Changes that occured over all of the patches that affected a total of 32 units and buildings. -There were 8 units/buildings that were affected in at least two patches with a total of 9 changes (BC, Bunker, ghost, infestor, reaper, Depo, VRay, zealot, and thor) -There were 3 units/buildings that were affected in at least 3 patches with a total of 5 changes. (Bunker, infestor, and thor) -1 Unit has ever been patched backward meaning the change that did in another patch went the opposite direction that a previous patch was going. (Thor's strike cannons was put on cooldown then reversed back to energy) Even the bunkers changes all flowed in the same direction (Change 1: BT 30-35 Change2: BT 35-40 Change 3: Salvage 100-75) This does not include the most recent patch nor anything from the beta (as a beta is supposed to change back and forth frequently) All information here I got directly from our very own liquipedia so I didn't have to go very far and neither did you. + Show Spoiler +On the changes I'm glad that you can NP massive again as that is most likely the only thing you would ever want to NP. Although the range saddens me.. Come on at least 8. Zealot gateway build time was changed and reversed a lot.
Nope the zealot was changed twice
Change 1 I suppose you could count this 1 as two but in reality all it does is increase how long the gateway/warpgate has to remain occupied when you attempt to build/warp a zealot by 5sec.
Change 2
There was a change in a PTR once that considered reversing change 1 here however it did not come to fruition. There were also non balance changes done to the zealot but those are precisely what they say non balance it means a glitch or something that did not work as intended now with glitch or unintentional ability taken out that may affect the balance if you used that feature or had it used against you but that doesnt make it a balance change thus the zealot has be changed twice.
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On September 19 2011 11:46 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 23:35 BeeNu wrote:On September 18 2011 20:50 Belial88 wrote: Nevertheless i think 7 is kinda bad for Zerg because of Tanks. Siege tanks have range 13 and 2 shot infestors. Range 9 was bad because of tanks too. Ghosts also outrange and 2 shot infestors, a midly prepared terran would always laugh at infestors. They are great at catching Terran out of position, however, more unforgiving than ling/bane for that. In the next patch, it wont matter, the colossus can be in 1a-mode, any neural will put the infestor in the range of the stalkers. That's why you FG. It is a bit sad that 1a deathballs will only be stronger, it's really obnoxious and even with pro infestor micro, an a-move deathball can still have a very good chance at winning (and a deathball is exactly that, a chance coinflip that wins too often - not to mention deathballs with HT support). But this change won't break Zerg. It'll make it harder for Zerg, but well prepared Zerg will still win. Colossi could already snipe infestors with equal range and you could always blink stalkers forward of blink. Besides, the best way to deal with infestors was massing huge numbers of chargelots, not stalkers. Wait....what? How..?!...uggh.. Chargelots to counter Infestors? No, just...no. They're called High Templar, they have this nice ability called Feedback that can 1 shot kill Infestors, and they also have this nice ability called Psi Storm that melts Infestors who are Neural Parasiting. And no, they are not difficult to use, although they do require more than 1a Chargelots don't counter infestors per se, it's that chargelots are half decent, especially compared to stalkers. LiquidTyler and on the SoTG they have discussed that you should be massing chargelots against infestors. The sheer number of units you'd have than if those were stalkers would overwhelm infestors, they do more damage, take more FG to kill, are useful against lings even when FG'd. Obviously, HT with FB are preferable, and psi storm is nice as well, nor are they difficult to use against fatty infestors... but when you have to make your cheap filler units, chargelots are infinitely better than more stalkers.
When did he say you should be massing chargelots?
You build them because when Zerg goes Infestors they tend to have a TON of lings and you get a lot of excess minerals since Archons and Templars are pretty gas heavy. Chargelot also supplement Archons really well
They are not a "counter", they are just a good unit to have in your army given your resource limitations
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^ I said it, and then he said I was wrong.
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Dammit Blizzard, you just can't stop NERFING TERRAN, can you?!?!?!?!?!
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On September 19 2011 12:27 McStupid wrote:
Dammit Blizzard, you just can't stop NERFING TERRAN, can you?!?!?!?!?!
Stop having a 60-70% winrate in Korean TvP, and we'll talk.
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Did anything in the patch directly address the 1/1/1?
I'm a bit confused about the direction Blizzard is taking this game because they're not really listening to the progamers when it comes to racial balance issues.
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^ What progamers ever said 1/1/1 was imbalanced?
I'd prefer if they waited a few months longer for 1/1/1. There's been plenty of games of people holding 1/1/1, it's not impossible to win against. Not saying it isn't imbalanced, but this knee-jerk reaction is too much. I'd like to see what happens this season in GSL about it.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EZ199.jpg)
