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Zona
40426 Posts
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
On September 06 2011 12:34 Ace wrote: This is a normal game by all accounts with a hidden role list. Just think of it like that. I feel like we need to set up parameters for what constitutes normal games, just for future reference. As a side note, I suddenly feel the urge to play a 20 player normal PM game. (hint hint!) | ||
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Varpulis
United States2517 Posts
On September 06 2011 12:40 Incognito wrote: I feel like we need to set up parameters for what constitutes normal games, just for future reference. As a side note, I suddenly feel the urge to play a 20 player normal PM game. (hint hint!) I think he means normal in comparison to, say, a caller game or PYP. I didn't think that closed/open setups or size factored into which games are normal and which aren't. | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On September 06 2011 11:50 Zona wrote: I'd like host a normal game. Yessir On September 06 2011 12:40 Incognito wrote: I feel like we need to set up parameters for what constitutes normal games, just for future reference. As a side note, I suddenly feel the urge to play a 20 player normal PM game. (hint hint!) The need to classify what constitutes a "normal" game has always been an outstanding issue but never a priority. We should define what makes a game normal, and then a themed game will be anything else. What sets apart normal games from the rest is the exclusion of strange roles. We need to define what's strange and what's not. Normal games have been known to have 3rd parties as well, so boundary's need to be set on these as well. Based on current and recent games, the following roles are probably "normal": Detective, Watcher, Tracker, Medic, Mad Hatter, Veteran, Vigilante (day or night), Traitor, Roleblocker, Framer, Miller, Nosy Neighbor. Certain mayoral roles should also be included here, such as Pardoner (and Bodyguards as well). I purposely left out 3rd party roles here. Of course lots of normal games have an odd role tossed in (LOL BUSDRIVER KEKE), so what we need to discuss is how many odd roles is too much. Personally, I believe that any type of 3rd party role should be classified as "odd", since 3rd party roles are a deviation from the purpose of mafia games. But I hate 3rd party roles so I am obviously biased. ---------- There's also no boundary between mini and non mini games. That should also be discussed. Since the start, I've been classifying anything with strictly less than 14 players as a mini game. | ||
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
Standard Normal Roles Investigative Roles Detective Watcher Tracker KP Roles Mad Hatter Vigilante ProtectiveRoles Veteran Medic Anti-DT Roles Miller Nosy Neighbor Mafia Power Roles Roleblocker Godfather Framer Day vigilante isn't a traditionally "normal" role, although the mechanics are normal enough. Traitor and 3rd parties should only be used if announced. These roles change the game dynamic and if left hidden, can lead to some anger or disastrous results. Allowable 3rd parties are SK and assassin. Elections can be included, but obviously have to be announced. Should we allow hosts to throw in 1 odd role into the game, provided it is announced, or should we stick strictly to the basics? If we allow odd roles, should we create a public list of allowed roles, or should we let hosts be creative, as long as their included role gets approved by the balance team? In a no PM setup are masons normal enough to include? In a no role reveal setup, is a coroner normal enough to include? Other stuff that needs to be discussed: Game Options: Voting Plurality Lynch Majority Lynch Extended Majority Lynch Setup Type Closed Setup Open Setup Semi-Open Setup Flips No Role Reveal on Death Role Reveal on Death Alignment-Only Reveal on Death PMs Yes No Clues Yes No I feel like we can use this time to also restructure the way we do OPs. Instead of having a Model OP and pasting it every single time into each game, I think we should have a "Standard TL Mafia Rules" page that players can reference. Then we won't have to paste that giant thing each game. For the customizable sections, we can define the multiple game types (such as majority v. plurality v. extended majority lynch) and just let hosts have a short list section detailing which game options are being used. For example: TL Mafia XLV: Semi-Open Setup Majority Lynch Full Role Reveal Open Signups w/ preference for experienced players PMs: No Clues: No Elections: No Replacements: No Time Cycle: 48/24 This condenses the current 3.5 page OP to a manageable 10ish lines. Players can reference the Standard TL Mafia Rules list for explanations of the game options. We could also have a template for host-specific (such as modkill policy, spam policy) or game-specific rules (such as special mechanics) as well. As far as I'm concerned, any game where the mafia only has 1 KP (and has reasonable chances) can count as a mini game. I guess this would be up to 15 players then. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
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redFF
United States3910 Posts
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On September 06 2011 15:37 redFF wrote: I thought a normal game was just a game with vt's, a few blues, mafia, maybe third party, and no wacky theme. Well, you are going to need to be more clear on "wacky theme", I mean my latest game XLIV, has heavy flavor, including unique role pms for every player, yet it was still a normal game, because there were no unusual roles. I think the important thing is that normal games don't modify core mechanics and use a limited subset of standard roles. EDIT: Basically I agree with incognito, although I feel like scum medic needs to be in the "normal" role section, and there should be a certain amount of variation/innovation allowed (e.g. making vigilantes into day vigi's, or giving the mafia vigilantes to help stop confirmed town) | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
About "Normal games" We could break that category in two, because I feel like Normal game should be a standard flip game with no clues / no pm (besides masons) and "normal roles", of course we should let hosts decide how should vigilante work (mostly number of bullets / when they can shoot) etc. The other category could include pms, clues and more than one/custom role and 3rd parties. I think that "odd" roles as long they are balanced and fit the game they could be in normal games (Vigilante killing himself after he shoots a Townie for an example?) | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On September 06 2011 23:15 Kurumi wrote: I don't know why hosts insist on helping mafia giving them roles which town can get. It was always harder to win as mafia than it was to win with town, using brain correctly is the key they say. About "Normal games" Why is a medic a town role? Doesn't the town have night KP too? Shouldn't the mafia be able to use resources to neutralize it? Why should the town get free confirmed townies? The point of giving mafia this roles is to make the *town* have to use the brain correctly, as opposed to "herp derp, the vigi shot, he is confirmed. The tracker followed him and he stayed home, he is town. The DT checked him, he must be mafia" the only reason scum have to get PRs is to help counteract town prs which make becoming "confirmed" too easy | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
Players themselves should NEVER be able to confirm themselves by performing an action. Self-confirms are unacceptable (unless in theme games with "prevention system" like additional KP for people who claim or whatever) | ||
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redFF
United States3910 Posts
There are obvious pitfalls like people could just not participate in the pm game. But then if somebody was "lurking" people could just pester them with pms/vote them. Anyway tell me what you think. | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On September 07 2011 02:50 redFF wrote: Would anybody be interested in playing a pm game with no regular thread, but only a voting thread where you posted votes? It would still be mafia, with roles and lynches and day phases and night phases, but all play would take place in pms/irc/skype with no communication within a thread. I think this could be fun and an interesting change of pace. Thoughts? There are obvious pitfalls like people could just not participate in the pm game. But then if somebody was "lurking" people could just pester them with pms/vote them. Anyway tell me what you think. You cannot have too many players because the amount of work required is absurd (imagine trying to have 29 conversations at once). You would need a small number of people who are guaranteed to be almost always active. The time zones also presents a problem as it would be insanely difficult for DropBear and I to have a real time conversation. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On September 07 2011 02:46 Kurumi wrote: Confirmed Townies were always the part of Mafia. We either agree that TL Mafia teams suck and they need help and we balance accordingly or try to keep games fair. It is obvious that Mafia Team with Scum Doc, Roleblocker, Vigilante and 3 goons will have better results than a team with a Roleblocker and Godfather and four goons with the same setup. I dislike the roles "I used X, I am now confirmed", like America which was for example listed Town for some reason in that example game. Players themselves should NEVER be able to confirm themselves by performing an action. Self-confirms are unacceptable (unless in theme games with "prevention system" like additional KP for people who claim or whatever) I mostly agree, except some roles just are easier to be looked at as Town than others. As a host as long as you make it difficult for the roles to confirm themselves/stay alive then you've done your job. Except Masons because there is nothing you can do about them. ETA: Also giving Scum "Town Roles" helps counteract confirmed Town scenario like GMarshal said. Seeing 2,3 medic claims in a game with low KP should make somebody stop and think there is a Scum Doctor in the setup. | ||
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redFF
United States3910 Posts
On September 07 2011 03:25 Foolishness wrote: You cannot have too many players because the amount of work required is absurd (imagine trying to have 29 conversations at once). You would need a small number of people who are guaranteed to be almost always active. The time zones also presents a problem as it would be insanely difficult for DropBear and I to have a real time conversation. That's true, it would probably be a mini. | ||
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
On September 07 2011 06:55 sandroba wrote: Man, that reminds me that I really want to play in a big game with elections. Those seem very fun. Elections can be fun but big games=mass modkills  imo more normal games should incorporate some of Rol's mafia KP ideas from mafia 37 (and this type of kp adjustment should be classified within normal boundaries too). They definitely haven't been used enough and add an interesting extra dynamic to the game. Specifically things like:
Frame: Cost .5KP makes a player appear as mafia for 1 night cycle. Roleblock: Cost .5KP blocks a player from using his power during that night. Player is notified of being role blocked. Role Reverser: Cost 1.0KP Reverses the power of a role. Medic kills with a protect, Cop returns opposite alignment. Detective returns alignment. Vigilante hits self, mad hatter will RNG a new target. Veterans die if they are visited by anyone. Players are not told they got reversed. All powers can be used MULTIPLE times in a night as long as the mafia has the requisite KP. Don't see anything wrong with trying more games with mafia having town roles as well, and yes, they should be classified under normal. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On September 06 2011 12:40 Incognito wrote: I feel like we need to set up parameters for what constitutes normal games, just for future reference. As a side note, I suddenly feel the urge to play a 20 player normal PM game. (hint hint!) I COULD HOST HAMMER MINI MAFIA! ...if some douche didn't forget to queue it. + Show Spoiler + </3 | ||
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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