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I pretty much grew up without religion and never really felt like I was missing out on anything. When occasionally my Mom would take us to church I found it to be silly, embarrassing, and sometimes a bit frightening. Growing up I felt revulsion and distrust of the glassy eyed, self righteous breed of religious zealot I occasionally came across. I learned to respect reason and knowledge and for a long time that seemed to be satisfactory enough, as far as the search for meaning goes.
At this point in my life it no longer feels adequate. I've had a personal taste of just how clumsily science currently deals with matters of the emotions and the soul. It is precisely these areas of my life that are in need of mending, and I believe that at least as of now science does not contain any true remedy.
It seems to be fashionable these days to despise religion. I went through a phase of feeling that way but now I'm beginning to think that I don't understand it well enough to be in any place to judge. I've tried attending (Buddhist) church a few times recently but I just feel so disingenuous and awkward. Little bits of the teaching really resonate with me but others I just want to reject as pure nonsense. I'm just tired of not believing in anything and finding my existence to be totally meaningless. My confidence and strength have been ground away into nothing, and I feel as though I require something that lies beyond the material world, to keep my feet moving forward.
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believe in what you think is right
it doesn't have to follow any religion exactly, or even be associated with any religion. I believe that religion is just an inner truth; for example no two people are going to be christian exactly the same way
I'm an atheist, and I'm fine with just accepting that love and emotion just works the way it does b/c our science isn't advanced enough to understand it yet
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Joseph Smith went through the same thing you are going through now ~200 years ago. While reading The Bible, he did as James 1:5 advises and asked God which church he should join. There was no church on earth that was adequate at the time, but God used Joseph Smith as his tool in crafting his true church.
If you begin to seek truth, as Joseph Smith did, and you pray as James 1:5 advises, you will know which religion is for you.
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On February 16 2009 10:15 BanZu wrote: Where are you from?
Hawaii. Geez I got one star rating already, awesome.
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On February 16 2009 10:16 conCentrate9 wrote: Joseph Smith went through the same thing you are going through now ~200 years ago. While reading The Bible, he did as James 1:5 advises and asked God which church he should join. There was no church on earth that was adequate at the time, but God used Joseph Smith as his tool in crafting his true church.
If you begin to seek truth, as Joseph Smith did, and you pray as James 1:5 advises, you will know which religion is for you. or maybe an angel named moron will give you golden plates that you translate with a rock in a hat so you can make your own new religion!
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On February 16 2009 10:16 Sunyveil wrote: believe in what you think is right
it doesn't have to follow any religion exactly, or even be associated with any religion. I believe that religion is just an inner truth; for example no two people are going to be christian exactly the same way
I'm an atheist, and I'm fine with just accepting that love and emotion just works the way it does b/c our science isn't advanced enough to understand it yet
What I think is right always seems to change though or is proven wrong. It is hard to believe strongly in anything when your beliefs are constantly obliterated. I'm searching for something constant and unchanging.
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On February 16 2009 10:20 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2009 10:16 conCentrate9 wrote: Joseph Smith went through the same thing you are going through now ~200 years ago. While reading The Bible, he did as James 1:5 advises and asked God which church he should join. There was no church on earth that was adequate at the time, but God used Joseph Smith as his tool in crafting his true church.
If you begin to seek truth, as Joseph Smith did, and you pray as James 1:5 advises, you will know which religion is for you. or maybe an angel named moron will give you golden plates that you translate with a rock in a hat so you can make your own new religion!
I didn't provoke you, so I'll just assume you're attacking a faceless religion and not me personally.
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religion is awesome i describe what the religion itself claims happened and its so absurd its perceived as an attack.
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On February 16 2009 10:20 IdrA wrote: or maybe an angel named moron will give you golden plates that you translate with a rock in a hat so you can make your own new religion!
Then you would set down the teaching in "The Book of Moron"?
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On February 16 2009 10:23 IdrA wrote: religion is awesome i describe what the religion itself claims happened and its so absurd its perceived as an attack.
Angel moron? You should probably understand what you're claiming before you claim it.
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On February 16 2009 10:23 yoshtodd wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2009 10:20 IdrA wrote: or maybe an angel named moron will give you golden plates that you translate with a rock in a hat so you can make your own new religion! Then you would set down the teaching in "The Book of Moron"?
you dont want religion if you find the teachings of buddhism irrational you're gonna throw up when you see the beliefs of the more religious religions.
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On February 16 2009 10:27 conCentrate9 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2009 10:23 IdrA wrote: religion is awesome i describe what the religion itself claims happened and its so absurd its perceived as an attack. Angel moron? You should probably understand what you're claiming before you claim it. ? moron, moroni whatever
HE READ GOLDEN TABLETS WRITTEN IN A LANGUAGE HE DIDNT KNOW WITH THE HELP OF A ROCK IN A FUCKING HAT AND HE WOULDNT LET ANYONE ELSE SEE THE TABLETS
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Neither science or religion can explain everything completely.
and what in the world do you mean by Buddhist "church"?
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it's "mormon".
But yeah, I agree with IdrA. Buddhism is probably the least extreme of all religions.
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no mormon is the religion the angel that led him to the tablets was named moroni
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I tend to think that people want and maybe even need to have answers to what are basically unanswerable questions. A friend of mine and I had a conversation not long ago where we discussed miracles, and upon my response that I didn't believe in them, she said she did because she had seen them. My response was to say that just because you don't understand why something happens, it doesn't then follow that you have to attribute a supernatural cause.
What I'm trying to get at though is that you're right, we don't "know" why everything happens the way it does. We don't know how to explain love, beauty, the soul, and what have you. But in my opinion, the mistake people often make is to, instead of just admitting that they don't know, they find some other cause--some other reasoning behind it.
What I think is right always seems to change though or is proven wrong. It is hard to believe strongly in anything when your beliefs are constantly obliterated. I'm searching for something constant and unchanging.
Most people (I would hope) go through or have gone through what you seem to be going through. I hope you find what your looking for, but looking for some wholly immutable truth is tough to come by, and, more than that, it isn't very interesting. That life and our world--and our perception of the world--are dynamic is beautiful and moving.
Anyway, take what you will from this, as lord knows this thread may just turn into a flamestorm fast enough, but good luck nonetheless.
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Well you are on the right track. You will never find the truth if you don't look for it. My suggestion is to find some like minded people who are doing the same thing you are. This website may not be the best place because its primary focus is not that subject.
Second, you should not let yourself get trapped in any specific interlocking belief system. If it takes away your individuality or hampers critical thinking, avoid it.
You need to come up with a way to sort the truth from what is not true. The scientific method is used in science, but as you pointed out, it is limited to concrete experiments. Here is another method you can use
+ Show Spoiler +Truth Analysis
The process is based on two axioms:
1. truth is not subjective 2. truth never contradicts itself
Because truth is not subjective, some ideas are more objective than others. This means that no matter what your worldview is, it can always be improved to be more objective. It shows that there is indeed something to strive for.
The idea that truth never contradicts itself is a very powerful axiom. Lies can be internally consistent as well, but a mixture of truth and lies will show contradictions. You can use this principle to discover what’s true and what’s false. Here’s what I mean:
It is difficult to tell if any single idea is true or false, just like it is difficult to tell which of two similar puzzles a single puzzle piece belongs to. But a large collection of non-contradicting ideas will reveal whether the entire collection is true or false. The larger the collection, the easier it is to see. You start with one ambiguous puzzle piece, find others that fit onto it, and soon you can tell which of the two puzzles you’ve put together.
Another analogy is panning for gold. You start with a large amount of material that includes both silt and gold flakes, then you shake the pan and let the silt fall away. This indicates the importance of continually thinking, reading, and discussing large amounts of new material, which is then to be sorted or filtered via intuition and critical thinking to reveal what is true.
It is better to look for what’s wrong with a theory than what’s right. Debates can rage forever concerning the thousand facts supporting a single lie, but no one can argue with a single fact that disproves a thousand lies.
Remember, as long as your worldview is internally consistent, it is most likely entirely true or entirely false. Combine this principle with the five-step process below, and you will have an effective truth analysis method. The process of discovering truth is one of cycling between gathering material, formulating theories, working out inconsistencies, and gathering more material.
Most importantly, truth is always verified by both logic and intuition—logic without intuition, or intuition without logic should never be used to determine truth. They must be used in tandem. If there is conflict between logic and intuition, check your logical assumptions. Use intuition to guide and logic to analyze.
The process goes like this:
1) Gather new ideas from contemplation, observation, discussion, or some reading material. Then pick a mystery, a contradiction, a set of observations or anything that needs to be explained or resolved.
2) To make a good theory that will explain all of that, start with the infinite set of all possibilities. This means anything goes, no idea is too ludicrous. Use your intuition and guess.
3) As ideas come to mind, use critical thinking to eliminate everything that is self contradictory or absolutely impossible. Look for holes in these ideas, try to shoot them down.
4) Of the bulletproof theories that are left, select the theory that:
* explains all the facts * explains the facts better than any other theory * explains facts that previous theories could not * is logically consistent and has no internal contradictions * makes sense * feels intuitively correct
5) The theory is worth keeping if:
* it predicts things which are later confirmed by observation * you find correlation from other independent sources
6) If you come across something that challenges the theory, then:
* check to see that it’s really a challenge, and not just an illusory paradox based on assumptions or incorrect perspective * check to see if the challenge is even valid, or if it is internally inconsistent and full of holes * modify the theory to accomodate the challenge * come up with a whole new theory that explains everything more elegantly than the old one
This is opposite the process used in science and mathematics that starts with axioms and builds upon them. The problem with that method is that it starts with a very limited finite set and creeps upward like a stalagmite. If the assumptions or axioms are false, then everything built on it is in error. Furthermore, such a process cannot skip steps, as it always needs verification from the status quo to proceed to the next step. It cannot take leaps of faith or logic, and therefore cannot make paradigm shifts. It’s an inflexible process that definitely has its advantages when it comes to high risk applications that need lots of security and assuredness, but as far as breaking new ground is concerned, it’s incredibly slow. Any creativity in that process happens only in the formation of the basic axioms, or in accidents that occur along the way.
The process described in this article starts with an infinite set, and whittles away what doesn’t fit. This means there is no need to leap across a logical abyss because one approaches from the other side. It is much easier to build a bridge if someone is already on the other side. Likewise, once a radical idea has been confirmed using this process, it is much easier to work backwards and logically bridge the abyss. Also, the fitting together of ideas and sorting of truth from lies requires creativity at every step, so it’s the best method of achieving rapid innovation.
For a long time, perhaps, you have been thinking in a single paradigm. There are more ways to see the word than just from the materialist point of view.
+ Show Spoiler +Paradigm Shifts and Aeonics by Peter Carroll
All the philosophies, creeds, dogmas and beliefs that humanity has evolved are variants of three great paradigms, the Transcendental, the Materialist and the Magical. In no human culture has any one of these paradigms been completely distinct from the others. For example in our own culture at the time of writing the Transcendental and Magical paradigms are frequently confused together.
Transcendental philosophies are basically religious and manifest in a spectrum stretching from the fringes of primitive spiritism through pagan polytheism to the monotheism of the Judaeo-Christian- Islamic traditions and the theoretical non-theistic systems of Buddhism and Taoism. In each case it is believed that some form of consciousness or spirit created and maintains the universe and that humans, other living organisms, contain some fragment of this consciousness or spirit which underlies the veil or illusion of matter. The essence of Transcendentalism is belief in spiritual beings greater than oneself or states of spiritual being superior to that which currently one enjoys. Earthly life is frequently seen merely as a form of dialoque between oneself and one's deity or deities, or perhaps some impersonal form of higher force. The material world is a theatre for the spirit or soul or consciousness that created it. Spirit is the ultimate reality to the transcendentalist.
In the Materialist paradigm the universe is believed to consist fundamentally and entirely of matter. Energy is but a form of matter and together they subtend space and time within which all change occurs strictly on the basis of cause and effect. Human behaviour is reducible to biology, biology is reducible to chemistry, chemistry is reducible to physics and physics is reducible to mathematics. Mind and consciousness are thus merely electrochemical events in the brain and spirit is a word without objective content. The causes of some events are likely to remain obscure perhaps indefinitely, but there is an underlying faith that sufficient material cause must exist for any event. All human acts can be categorized as serving some biological need or as expressions of previously applied conditioning or merely as malfunction. The goal of materialist who eschews suicide is the pursuit of personal satisfaction including altruistic satisfactions if desired.
The main difficulty in recognizing and describing the pure Magical Paradigm is that of insufficient vocabulary. Magical philosophy is only recently recovering from a heavy adulteration with transcendental theory. The word aether will be used to describe the fundamental reality of the magical paradigm. It is more or less equivalent to the idea of Mana used in oceanic shamanism. Aether in materialistic descriptions is information which structures matter and which all matter is capable of emitting and receiving. In transcendental terms aether is a sort of 'life force' present in some degree in all things. It carries both knowledge about events and the ability to influence similar or sympathetic events. Events either arise sponataneously out of themselves or are encouraged to follow certain paths by influence of patterns in the aether. As all things have an aetheric part they can be considered to be alive in some sense. Thus all things happen by magic, the large scale features of the universe have a very strong aetheric pattern which makes them fairly predictable but difficult to influence by the aetheric patterns created by thought. Magicians see themselves as participating in nature. Transcendentalists like to think they are somehow above it. Materialists like to try and manipulate it.
Now this universe has the peculiarly accomodating property of tending to provide evidence for, and confirmation of, whatever paradigm one chooses to believe in. Presumably at some deep level there is a hidden symmetry between those things we call Matter, Aether and Spirit. Indeed, it is rare to find an individual or culture operating exclusively on a single one of these paradigms and none is ever entirely absent. Non-dominant paradigms are always present as superstitions and fears. A subsequent section on Aeonics will attempt to untangle the influences of each of these great world views throughout history, to see how they have interacted with each other and to predict future trends. In the meantime an analysis of the radically differing concepts of time and self in each paradigm is offered to more fully distinguish the basic ideas.
Transcendentalists conceive of time in millennial and apocalyptic terms. Time is regareded as having a definite beginning and ending, both initiated by the activities of spiritual beings or forces. The end of time on the personal and cosmic scale is regarded not so much as a cessation of being but as a change to a state of non-material being. The beginning of personal and cosmic time is similarly regarded as a creative act by spiritual agencies. Thus reproductive activity usually becomes heavily controlled and hedged about with taboo and restriction in religious cultures, as it implies an usurpation of the powers of deities. Reproduction also implies that death has in some measure been overcome. How awesome the power of creation and how final must earthly death subconsciously loom to a celibate and sterile priesthood.
All transcendentalisms embody elements of apocalyptism. Typically these are used to provoke revivals when business is slack or attention is drifting elsewhere. Thus it is suddenly revealed that the final days are at hand or that some earthly dispute is in fact a titanic battle against evil spiritual agencies.
Materialist time is linear but unbounded. Ideally it can be extended arbitrarily far in either direction from the present. To the strict materialist it is self-evidently futile to speculate about a beginning or an end to time. Similarly the materialist is contemptuous of any speculations about any forms of personal existence before birth or after death. The materialist may well fear painful or premature death but can have no fears about being dead.
The magical view is that time is cyclic and that all processes recur. Even cycles which appear to begin or end are actually parts of larger cycles. Thus all endings are beginnings and the end of time is synonymous with the beginning of time in another universe. The magical view that everything is recycled is reflected in the doctrine of reincarnation. The attractive idea of reincarnation has often persisted into the religious paradigm and many pagan and even some monotheist traditions have retained it. However religious theories invariably contaminate the original idea with beliefs about a personal soul. From a strictly magical viewpoint we are an accretion rather than an unfolded unity. The psyche has no particular centre, we are colonial beings, a rich collage of many selves. Thus as our bodies contain fragments from countless former beings, so does our psyche. However certain magical traditions retain techniques which allow the adept to transfer quite large amounts of his psyche in one piece should he consider this more useful than dispersing himself into humanity at large.
Each of the paradigms take a different view of the self. Transcendentalists view self as spirit inserted into matter. As a fragment or figment of deity the self regards itself as somehow placed in the world in a non-arbitrary manner and endowed with free will. The transcendental view of self is relatively stable and non-problematic if shared as a consensus with all significant others. However, transcendental theories about the placement and purpose of self and its relationship to deities are mutually exclusive. Conflicting transcendentalisms can rarely co-exist for they threaten to disconform the images of self. Encounters which are not decisive tend to be mutually negatory in the long run.
Of the three views of self the purely materialistic one is the most problematical. If mind is an extension of matter it must obey material laws and the resulting deterministic view conflicts with the subjective experience of free will. On the other hand if mind and consciousness are assumed to be qualitatively different from matter then the self is incomprehensible to itself in material terms. Worse still perhaps, the materialist self must regard itself as a phenomenon of only temporary duration in contradiction of the subjective expectation of continuity of consciousness. Because a purely materialist view of self is so austere few are prepared to confront such naked existentialism. Consequently materialist cultures exhibit a frantic appetite for sensation, identification and more or less disposable irrational beliefs. Anything that will make the self seem less insubstantial.
The magical view of self is that it is based on the same random capricious chaos which makes the universe exist and do what it does. The magical self has no centre, it is not a unity but an assemblage of parts, any number of which may temorarily club together and call themselves 'I'. This accords with the observation that our subjective experience consists of our various selves experiencing each other. Free will arises either as an outcome of a dispute between our various selves or as a sudden random creation of a new idea or option. In the magical view of self there is no spirit/matter or mind/body split and the paradoxes of free will and determinism disappear. Some of our acts arise from random choices between conditioned options and some from conditional choices between randomly created options. In practice most of our acts are based on rather complex hierarchical sequences of all four of these mechanisms. As soon as we have acted one of our selves proclaims 'I did that!' so loudly that most of the other selves think they did it too.
Each of the three views of self has something derogatory to say about the other two. From the standpoint of the transcendental self the materialist self has become prey to pride of intellect, the demon hubris, whilst the magical view of self is considered to be entirely demonic. The material self views the transcendentalist as obsessed with assumptions having no basis in fact, and the magical self as being childlike and incoherent. From the standpoint of the magical view, the assorted selves of the transcendendatilst have ascribed a grossly exaggerated importance to one or a few of the selves which they call God or gods, whilst the materialist has attempted to make all his selves subordinate to the self that does the rational thinking. Ultimately it's a matter of faith and taste. The transcedentalist has faith in his god self, the materialist has faith in his reasoning self and the selves of the magician have faith in each other. Naturally, all these forms of faith are subject to periods of doubt.
Anyways, why do you say your beliefs are constantly obliterated? I understand what you mean by that, but still I'd be interested if you could give some examples.
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u should go into the religion thats most profitable and ask for donations and crap.
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