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Seeking Religion

Blogs > yoshtodd
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yoshtodd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States418 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 01:13:07
February 16 2009 01:10 GMT
#1
I pretty much grew up without religion and never really felt like I was missing out on anything. When occasionally my Mom would take us to church I found it to be silly, embarrassing, and sometimes a bit frightening. Growing up I felt revulsion and distrust of the glassy eyed, self righteous breed of religious zealot I occasionally came across. I learned to respect reason and knowledge and for a long time that seemed to be satisfactory enough, as far as the search for meaning goes.

At this point in my life it no longer feels adequate. I've had a personal taste of just how clumsily science currently deals with matters of the emotions and the soul. It is precisely these areas of my life that are in need of mending, and I believe that at least as of now science does not contain any true remedy.

It seems to be fashionable these days to despise religion. I went through a phase of feeling that way but now I'm beginning to think that I don't understand it well enough to be in any place to judge. I've tried attending (Buddhist) church a few times recently but I just feel so disingenuous and awkward. Little bits of the teaching really resonate with me but others I just want to reject as pure nonsense. I'm just tired of not believing in anything and finding my existence to be totally meaningless. My confidence and strength have been ground away into nothing, and I feel as though I require something that lies beyond the material world, to keep my feet moving forward.



***
moo
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 16 2009 01:15 GMT
#2
Where are you from?
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
Deleted User 31060
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
3788 Posts
February 16 2009 01:16 GMT
#3
believe in what you think is right

it doesn't have to follow any religion exactly, or even be associated with any religion. I believe that religion is just an inner truth; for example no two people are going to be christian exactly the same way

I'm an atheist, and I'm fine with just accepting that love and emotion just works the way it does b/c our science isn't advanced enough to understand it yet
Peaked at C- on ICCUP and proud of it! @Sunyveil
conCentrate9
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States438 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 01:17:31
February 16 2009 01:16 GMT
#4
Joseph Smith went through the same thing you are going through now ~200 years ago. While reading The Bible, he did as James 1:5 advises and asked God which church he should join. There was no church on earth that was adequate at the time, but God used Joseph Smith as his tool in crafting his true church.

If you begin to seek truth, as Joseph Smith did, and you pray as James 1:5 advises, you will know which religion is for you.
yoshtodd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States418 Posts
February 16 2009 01:18 GMT
#5
On February 16 2009 10:15 BanZu wrote:
Where are you from?


Hawaii. Geez I got one star rating already, awesome.
moo
BalliSLife
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
1339 Posts
February 16 2009 01:20 GMT
#6
World of Warcraft?
Ya well, at least I don't fuck a fleshlight with a condom on and cry at the same time.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 01:21:17
February 16 2009 01:20 GMT
#7
On February 16 2009 10:16 conCentrate9 wrote:
Joseph Smith went through the same thing you are going through now ~200 years ago. While reading The Bible, he did as James 1:5 advises and asked God which church he should join. There was no church on earth that was adequate at the time, but God used Joseph Smith as his tool in crafting his true church.

If you begin to seek truth, as Joseph Smith did, and you pray as James 1:5 advises, you will know which religion is for you.

or maybe an angel named moron will give you golden plates that you translate with a rock in a hat so you can make your own new religion!
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
yoshtodd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States418 Posts
February 16 2009 01:21 GMT
#8
On February 16 2009 10:16 Sunyveil wrote:
believe in what you think is right

it doesn't have to follow any religion exactly, or even be associated with any religion. I believe that religion is just an inner truth; for example no two people are going to be christian exactly the same way

I'm an atheist, and I'm fine with just accepting that love and emotion just works the way it does b/c our science isn't advanced enough to understand it yet


What I think is right always seems to change though or is proven wrong. It is hard to believe strongly in anything when your beliefs are constantly obliterated. I'm searching for something constant and unchanging.
moo
conCentrate9
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States438 Posts
February 16 2009 01:22 GMT
#9
On February 16 2009 10:20 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2009 10:16 conCentrate9 wrote:
Joseph Smith went through the same thing you are going through now ~200 years ago. While reading The Bible, he did as James 1:5 advises and asked God which church he should join. There was no church on earth that was adequate at the time, but God used Joseph Smith as his tool in crafting his true church.

If you begin to seek truth, as Joseph Smith did, and you pray as James 1:5 advises, you will know which religion is for you.

or maybe an angel named moron will give you golden plates that you translate with a rock in a hat so you can make your own new religion!


I didn't provoke you, so I'll just assume you're attacking a faceless religion and not me personally.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 16 2009 01:23 GMT
#10
religion is awesome
i describe what the religion itself claims happened and its so absurd its perceived as an attack.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
yoshtodd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States418 Posts
February 16 2009 01:23 GMT
#11
On February 16 2009 10:20 IdrA wrote:
or maybe an angel named moron will give you golden plates that you translate with a rock in a hat so you can make your own new religion!


Then you would set down the teaching in "The Book of Moron"?
moo
conCentrate9
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States438 Posts
February 16 2009 01:27 GMT
#12
On February 16 2009 10:23 IdrA wrote:
religion is awesome
i describe what the religion itself claims happened and its so absurd its perceived as an attack.


Angel moron? You should probably understand what you're claiming before you claim it.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 01:28:40
February 16 2009 01:28 GMT
#13
On February 16 2009 10:23 yoshtodd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2009 10:20 IdrA wrote:
or maybe an angel named moron will give you golden plates that you translate with a rock in a hat so you can make your own new religion!


Then you would set down the teaching in "The Book of Moron"?


you dont want religion
if you find the teachings of buddhism irrational you're gonna throw up when you see the beliefs of the more religious religions.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 16 2009 01:29 GMT
#14
On February 16 2009 10:27 conCentrate9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2009 10:23 IdrA wrote:
religion is awesome
i describe what the religion itself claims happened and its so absurd its perceived as an attack.


Angel moron? You should probably understand what you're claiming before you claim it.

?
moron, moroni whatever

HE READ GOLDEN TABLETS WRITTEN IN A LANGUAGE HE DIDNT KNOW WITH THE HELP OF A ROCK IN A FUCKING HAT AND HE WOULDNT LET ANYONE ELSE SEE THE TABLETS

http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
February 16 2009 01:31 GMT
#15
Neither science or religion can explain everything completely.

and what in the world do you mean by Buddhist "church"?
FragKrag
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States11552 Posts
February 16 2009 01:31 GMT
#16
it's "mormon".

But yeah, I agree with IdrA. Buddhism is probably the least extreme of all religions.
*TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 16 2009 01:33 GMT
#17
no mormon is the religion
the angel that led him to the tablets was named moroni
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Enrique
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States377 Posts
February 16 2009 01:33 GMT
#18
I tend to think that people want and maybe even need to have answers to what are basically unanswerable questions. A friend of mine and I had a conversation not long ago where we discussed miracles, and upon my response that I didn't believe in them, she said she did because she had seen them. My response was to say that just because you don't understand why something happens, it doesn't then follow that you have to attribute a supernatural cause.

What I'm trying to get at though is that you're right, we don't "know" why everything happens the way it does. We don't know how to explain love, beauty, the soul, and what have you. But in my opinion, the mistake people often make is to, instead of just admitting that they don't know, they find some other cause--some other reasoning behind it.

What I think is right always seems to change though or is proven wrong. It is hard to believe strongly in anything when your beliefs are constantly obliterated. I'm searching for something constant and unchanging.


Most people (I would hope) go through or have gone through what you seem to be going through. I hope you find what your looking for, but looking for some wholly immutable truth is tough to come by, and, more than that, it isn't very interesting. That life and our world--and our perception of the world--are dynamic is beautiful and moving.

Anyway, take what you will from this, as lord knows this thread may just turn into a flamestorm fast enough, but good luck nonetheless.
~Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges~
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
February 16 2009 01:35 GMT
#19
Well you are on the right track. You will never find the truth if you don't look for it. My suggestion is to find some like minded people who are doing the same thing you are. This website may not be the best place because its primary focus is not that subject.

Second, you should not let yourself get trapped in any specific interlocking belief system. If it takes away your individuality or hampers critical thinking, avoid it.

You need to come up with a way to sort the truth from what is not true. The scientific method is used in science, but as you pointed out, it is limited to concrete experiments. Here is another method you can use

+ Show Spoiler +
Truth Analysis

The process is based on two axioms:

1. truth is not subjective
2. truth never contradicts itself

Because truth is not subjective, some ideas are more objective than others. This means that no matter what your worldview is, it can always be improved to be more objective. It shows that there is indeed something to strive for.

The idea that truth never contradicts itself is a very powerful axiom. Lies can be internally consistent as well, but a mixture of truth and lies will show contradictions. You can use this principle to discover what’s true and what’s false. Here’s what I mean:

It is difficult to tell if any single idea is true or false, just like it is difficult to tell which of two similar puzzles a single puzzle piece belongs to. But a large collection of non-contradicting ideas will reveal whether the entire collection is true or false. The larger the collection, the easier it is to see. You start with one ambiguous puzzle piece, find others that fit onto it, and soon you can tell which of the two puzzles you’ve put together.

Another analogy is panning for gold. You start with a large amount of material that includes both silt and gold flakes, then you shake the pan and let the silt fall away. This indicates the importance of continually thinking, reading, and discussing large amounts of new material, which is then to be sorted or filtered via intuition and critical thinking to reveal what is true.

It is better to look for what’s wrong with a theory than what’s right. Debates can rage forever concerning the thousand facts supporting a single lie, but no one can argue with a single fact that disproves a thousand lies.

Remember, as long as your worldview is internally consistent, it is most likely entirely true or entirely false. Combine this principle with the five-step process below, and you will have an effective truth analysis method. The process of discovering truth is one of cycling between gathering material, formulating theories, working out inconsistencies, and gathering more material.

Most importantly, truth is always verified by both logic and intuition—logic without intuition, or intuition without logic should never be used to determine truth. They must be used in tandem. If there is conflict between logic and intuition, check your logical assumptions. Use intuition to guide and logic to analyze.

The process goes like this:

1) Gather new ideas from contemplation, observation, discussion, or some reading material. Then pick a mystery, a contradiction, a set of observations or anything that needs to be explained or resolved.

2) To make a good theory that will explain all of that, start with the infinite set of all possibilities. This means anything goes, no idea is too ludicrous. Use your intuition and guess.

3) As ideas come to mind, use critical thinking to eliminate everything that is self contradictory or absolutely impossible. Look for holes in these ideas, try to shoot them down.

4) Of the bulletproof theories that are left, select the theory that:

* explains all the facts
* explains the facts better than any other theory
* explains facts that previous theories could not
* is logically consistent and has no internal contradictions
* makes sense
* feels intuitively correct

5) The theory is worth keeping if:

* it predicts things which are later confirmed by observation
* you find correlation from other independent sources

6) If you come across something that challenges the theory, then:

* check to see that it’s really a challenge, and not just an illusory paradox based on assumptions or incorrect perspective
* check to see if the challenge is even valid, or if it is internally inconsistent and full of holes
* modify the theory to accomodate the challenge
* come up with a whole new theory that explains everything more elegantly than the old one

This is opposite the process used in science and mathematics that starts with axioms and builds upon them. The problem with that method is that it starts with a very limited finite set and creeps upward like a stalagmite. If the assumptions or axioms are false, then everything built on it is in error. Furthermore, such a process cannot skip steps, as it always needs verification from the status quo to proceed to the next step. It cannot take leaps of faith or logic, and therefore cannot make paradigm shifts. It’s an inflexible process that definitely has its advantages when it comes to high risk applications that need lots of security and assuredness, but as far as breaking new ground is concerned, it’s incredibly slow. Any creativity in that process happens only in the formation of the basic axioms, or in accidents that occur along the way.

The process described in this article starts with an infinite set, and whittles away what doesn’t fit. This means there is no need to leap across a logical abyss because one approaches from the other side. It is much easier to build a bridge if someone is already on the other side. Likewise, once a radical idea has been confirmed using this process, it is much easier to work backwards and logically bridge the abyss. Also, the fitting together of ideas and sorting of truth from lies requires creativity at every step, so it’s the best method of achieving rapid innovation.


For a long time, perhaps, you have been thinking in a single paradigm. There are more ways to see the word than just from the materialist point of view.

+ Show Spoiler +
Paradigm Shifts and Aeonics
by Peter Carroll

All the philosophies, creeds, dogmas and beliefs that humanity has evolved are variants of three great paradigms, the Transcendental, the Materialist and the Magical. In no human culture has any one of these paradigms been completely distinct from the others. For example in our own culture at the time of writing the Transcendental and Magical paradigms are frequently confused together.

Transcendental philosophies are basically religious and manifest in a spectrum stretching from the fringes of primitive spiritism through pagan polytheism to the monotheism of the Judaeo-Christian- Islamic traditions and the theoretical non-theistic systems of Buddhism and Taoism. In each case it is believed that some form of consciousness or spirit created and maintains the universe and that humans, other living organisms, contain some fragment of this consciousness or spirit which underlies the veil or illusion of matter. The essence of Transcendentalism is belief in spiritual beings greater than oneself or states of spiritual being superior to that which currently one enjoys. Earthly life is frequently seen merely as a form of dialoque between oneself and one's deity or deities, or perhaps some impersonal form of higher force. The material world is a theatre for the spirit or soul or consciousness that created it. Spirit is the ultimate reality to the transcendentalist.

In the Materialist paradigm the universe is believed to consist fundamentally and entirely of matter. Energy is but a form of matter and together they subtend space and time within which all change occurs strictly on the basis of cause and effect. Human behaviour is reducible to biology, biology is reducible to chemistry, chemistry is reducible to physics and physics is reducible to mathematics. Mind and consciousness are thus merely electrochemical events in the brain and spirit is a word without objective content. The causes of some events are likely to remain obscure perhaps indefinitely, but there is an underlying faith that sufficient material cause must exist for any event. All human acts can be categorized as serving some biological need or as expressions of previously applied conditioning or merely as malfunction. The goal of materialist who eschews suicide is the pursuit of personal satisfaction including altruistic satisfactions if desired.

The main difficulty in recognizing and describing the pure Magical Paradigm is that of insufficient vocabulary. Magical philosophy is only recently recovering from a heavy adulteration with transcendental theory. The word aether will be used to describe the fundamental reality of the magical paradigm. It is more or less equivalent to the idea of Mana used in oceanic shamanism. Aether in materialistic descriptions is information which structures matter and which all matter is capable of emitting and receiving. In transcendental terms aether is a sort of 'life force' present in some degree in all things. It carries both knowledge about events and the ability to influence similar or sympathetic events. Events either arise sponataneously out of themselves or are encouraged to follow certain paths by influence of patterns in the aether. As all things have an aetheric part they can be considered to be alive in some sense. Thus all things happen by magic, the large scale features of the universe have a very strong aetheric pattern which makes them fairly predictable but difficult to influence by the aetheric patterns created by thought. Magicians see themselves as participating in nature. Transcendentalists like to think they are somehow above it. Materialists like to try and manipulate it.

Now this universe has the peculiarly accomodating property of tending to provide evidence for, and confirmation of, whatever paradigm one chooses to believe in. Presumably at some deep level there is a hidden symmetry between those things we call Matter, Aether and Spirit. Indeed, it is rare to find an individual or culture operating exclusively on a single one of these paradigms and none is ever entirely absent. Non-dominant paradigms are always present as superstitions and fears. A subsequent section on Aeonics will attempt to untangle the influences of each of these great world views throughout history, to see how they have interacted with each other and to predict future trends. In the meantime an analysis of the radically differing concepts of time and self in each paradigm is offered to more fully distinguish the basic ideas.

Transcendentalists conceive of time in millennial and apocalyptic terms. Time is regareded as having a definite beginning and ending, both initiated by the activities of spiritual beings or forces. The end of time on the personal and cosmic scale is regarded not so much as a cessation of being but as a change to a state of non-material being. The beginning of personal and cosmic time is similarly regarded as a creative act by spiritual agencies. Thus reproductive activity usually becomes heavily controlled and hedged about with taboo and restriction in religious cultures, as it implies an usurpation of the powers of deities. Reproduction also implies that death has in some measure been overcome. How awesome the power of creation and how final must earthly death subconsciously loom to a celibate and sterile priesthood.

All transcendentalisms embody elements of apocalyptism. Typically these are used to provoke revivals when business is slack or attention is drifting elsewhere. Thus it is suddenly revealed that the final days are at hand or that some earthly dispute is in fact a titanic battle against evil spiritual agencies.

Materialist time is linear but unbounded. Ideally it can be extended arbitrarily far in either direction from the present. To the strict materialist it is self-evidently futile to speculate about a beginning or an end to time. Similarly the materialist is contemptuous of any speculations about any forms of personal existence before birth or after death. The materialist may well fear painful or premature death but can have no fears about being dead.

The magical view is that time is cyclic and that all processes recur. Even cycles which appear to begin or end are actually parts of larger cycles. Thus all endings are beginnings and the end of time is synonymous with the beginning of time in another universe. The magical view that everything is recycled is reflected in the doctrine of reincarnation. The attractive idea of reincarnation has often persisted into the religious paradigm and many pagan and even some monotheist traditions have retained it. However religious theories invariably contaminate the original idea with beliefs about a personal soul. From a strictly magical viewpoint we are an accretion rather than an unfolded unity. The psyche has no particular centre, we are colonial beings, a rich collage of many selves. Thus as our bodies contain fragments from countless former beings, so does our psyche. However certain magical traditions retain techniques which allow the adept to transfer quite large amounts of his psyche in one piece should he consider this more useful than dispersing himself into humanity at large.

Each of the paradigms take a different view of the self. Transcendentalists view self as spirit inserted into matter. As a fragment or figment of deity the self regards itself as somehow placed in the world in a non-arbitrary manner and endowed with free will. The transcendental view of self is relatively stable and non-problematic if shared as a consensus with all significant others. However, transcendental theories about the placement and purpose of self and its relationship to deities are mutually exclusive. Conflicting transcendentalisms can rarely co-exist for they threaten to disconform the images of self. Encounters which are not decisive tend to be mutually negatory in the long run.

Of the three views of self the purely materialistic one is the most problematical. If mind is an extension of matter it must obey material laws and the resulting deterministic view conflicts with the subjective experience of free will. On the other hand if mind and consciousness are assumed to be qualitatively different from matter then the self is incomprehensible to itself in material terms. Worse still perhaps, the materialist self must regard itself as a phenomenon of only temporary duration in contradiction of the subjective expectation of continuity of consciousness. Because a purely materialist view of self is so austere few are prepared to confront such naked existentialism. Consequently materialist cultures exhibit a frantic appetite for sensation, identification and more or less disposable irrational beliefs. Anything that will make the self seem less insubstantial.

The magical view of self is that it is based on the same random capricious chaos which makes the universe exist and do what it does. The magical self has no centre, it is not a unity but an assemblage of parts, any number of which may temorarily club together and call themselves 'I'. This accords with the observation that our subjective experience consists of our various selves experiencing each other. Free will arises either as an outcome of a dispute between our various selves or as a sudden random creation of a new idea or option. In the magical view of self there is no spirit/matter or mind/body split and the paradoxes of free will and determinism disappear. Some of our acts arise from random choices between conditioned options and some from conditional choices between randomly created options. In practice most of our acts are based on rather complex hierarchical sequences of all four of these mechanisms. As soon as we have acted one of our selves proclaims 'I did that!' so loudly that most of the other selves think they did it too.

Each of the three views of self has something derogatory to say about the other two. From the standpoint of the transcendental self the materialist self has become prey to pride of intellect, the demon hubris, whilst the magical view of self is considered to be entirely demonic. The material self views the transcendentalist as obsessed with assumptions having no basis in fact, and the magical self as being childlike and incoherent. From the standpoint of the magical view, the assorted selves of the transcendendatilst have ascribed a grossly exaggerated importance to one or a few of the selves which they call God or gods, whilst the materialist has attempted to make all his selves subordinate to the self that does the rational thinking. Ultimately it's a matter of faith and taste. The transcedentalist has faith in his god self, the materialist has faith in his reasoning self and the selves of the magician have faith in each other. Naturally, all these forms of faith are subject to periods of doubt.


Anyways, why do you say your beliefs are constantly obliterated? I understand what you mean by that, but still I'd be interested if you could give some examples.
Do you really want chat rooms?
x89titan
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Philippines1130 Posts
February 16 2009 01:36 GMT
#20
u should go into the religion thats most profitable and ask for donations and crap.
Heaven came down and glory filled my soul, when at the cross the Savior made me whole
Railxp
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Hong Kong1313 Posts
February 16 2009 01:39 GMT
#21
if you are looking for answers, you might consider further research/reading into the fields of psychology and philosophy. Just as a note of caution, it is often a good idea to find out the full consequences/pros/cons of your actions BEFORE you invest time, energy and emotions into something. Also note that what you believe in will have a huge influence of who you decide to surround yourself by.
~\(。◕‿‿◕。)/~,,,,,,,,>
yoshtodd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States418 Posts
February 16 2009 01:45 GMT
#22
On February 16 2009 10:33 Enrique wrote:
I tend to think that people want and maybe even need to have answers to what are basically unanswerable questions. A friend of mine and I had a conversation not long ago where we discussed miracles, and upon my response that I didn't believe in them, she said she did because she had seen them. My response was to say that just because you don't understand why something happens, it doesn't then follow that you have to attribute a supernatural cause.

What I'm trying to get at though is that you're right, we don't "know" why everything happens the way it does. We don't know how to explain love, beauty, the soul, and what have you. But in my opinion, the mistake people often make is to, instead of just admitting that they don't know, they find some other cause--some other reasoning behind it.


Is it really a mistake to find some sort of cause or reasoning? I've been successful I guess at avoiding that mistake. Constantly my answer to life's important questions is a resigned "I don't know", but I feel as though this leaves me empty and drifting. There are a few people I've met who seem genuinely filled with religion or spirituality or whatever and they have a sort of groundedness that I envy.


Most people (I would hope) go through or have gone through what you seem to be going through. I hope you find what your looking for, but looking for some wholly immutable truth is tough to come by, and, more than that, it isn't very interesting. That life and our world--and our perception of the world--are dynamic is beautiful and moving.

Anyway, take what you will from this, as lord knows this thread may just turn into a flamestorm fast enough, but good luck nonetheless.


Thanks. I agree that life and perception are both moving and beautiful. It's just sometimes they feel unbearably painful too.
moo
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 16 2009 01:50 GMT
#23
Maybe you can contact

http://www.churchinhilo.org/contact/index.htm
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
Sprite
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States1015 Posts
February 16 2009 01:51 GMT
#24
Seeking Religion is always gonna get people saying do this or do that, just do what you feel is right.
Firebathero is still the best!
yoshtodd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States418 Posts
February 16 2009 01:55 GMT
#25
On February 16 2009 10:35 fight_or_flight wrote:
Well you are on the right track. You will never find the truth if you don't look for it. My suggestion is to find some like minded people who are doing the same thing you are. This website may not be the best place because its primary focus is not that subject.

Second, you should not let yourself get trapped in any specific interlocking belief system. If it takes away your individuality or hampers critical thinking, avoid it.


Yes I do tend to avoid any environments where belief is mandatory and questioning is unwelcome. I don't know where exactly to find specifically uncommitted, spiritual seekers. Maybe that's why this place felt like a good one to write in, because I'm sure there's people in the full spectrum of beliefs that like to visit this site.


You need to come up with a way to sort the truth from what is not true. The scientific method is used in science, but as you pointed out, it is limited to concrete experiments. Here is another method you can use

+ Show Spoiler +
Truth Analysis

The process is based on two axioms:

1. truth is not subjective
2. truth never contradicts itself

Because truth is not subjective, some ideas are more objective than others. This means that no matter what your worldview is, it can always be improved to be more objective. It shows that there is indeed something to strive for.

The idea that truth never contradicts itself is a very powerful axiom. Lies can be internally consistent as well, but a mixture of truth and lies will show contradictions. You can use this principle to discover what’s true and what’s false. Here’s what I mean:

It is difficult to tell if any single idea is true or false, just like it is difficult to tell which of two similar puzzles a single puzzle piece belongs to. But a large collection of non-contradicting ideas will reveal whether the entire collection is true or false. The larger the collection, the easier it is to see. You start with one ambiguous puzzle piece, find others that fit onto it, and soon you can tell which of the two puzzles you’ve put together.

Another analogy is panning for gold. You start with a large amount of material that includes both silt and gold flakes, then you shake the pan and let the silt fall away. This indicates the importance of continually thinking, reading, and discussing large amounts of new material, which is then to be sorted or filtered via intuition and critical thinking to reveal what is true.

It is better to look for what’s wrong with a theory than what’s right. Debates can rage forever concerning the thousand facts supporting a single lie, but no one can argue with a single fact that disproves a thousand lies.

Remember, as long as your worldview is internally consistent, it is most likely entirely true or entirely false. Combine this principle with the five-step process below, and you will have an effective truth analysis method. The process of discovering truth is one of cycling between gathering material, formulating theories, working out inconsistencies, and gathering more material.

Most importantly, truth is always verified by both logic and intuition—logic without intuition, or intuition without logic should never be used to determine truth. They must be used in tandem. If there is conflict between logic and intuition, check your logical assumptions. Use intuition to guide and logic to analyze.

The process goes like this:

1) Gather new ideas from contemplation, observation, discussion, or some reading material. Then pick a mystery, a contradiction, a set of observations or anything that needs to be explained or resolved.

2) To make a good theory that will explain all of that, start with the infinite set of all possibilities. This means anything goes, no idea is too ludicrous. Use your intuition and guess.

3) As ideas come to mind, use critical thinking to eliminate everything that is self contradictory or absolutely impossible. Look for holes in these ideas, try to shoot them down.

4) Of the bulletproof theories that are left, select the theory that:

* explains all the facts
* explains the facts better than any other theory
* explains facts that previous theories could not
* is logically consistent and has no internal contradictions
* makes sense
* feels intuitively correct

5) The theory is worth keeping if:

* it predicts things which are later confirmed by observation
* you find correlation from other independent sources

6) If you come across something that challenges the theory, then:

* check to see that it’s really a challenge, and not just an illusory paradox based on assumptions or incorrect perspective
* check to see if the challenge is even valid, or if it is internally inconsistent and full of holes
* modify the theory to accomodate the challenge
* come up with a whole new theory that explains everything more elegantly than the old one

This is opposite the process used in science and mathematics that starts with axioms and builds upon them. The problem with that method is that it starts with a very limited finite set and creeps upward like a stalagmite. If the assumptions or axioms are false, then everything built on it is in error. Furthermore, such a process cannot skip steps, as it always needs verification from the status quo to proceed to the next step. It cannot take leaps of faith or logic, and therefore cannot make paradigm shifts. It’s an inflexible process that definitely has its advantages when it comes to high risk applications that need lots of security and assuredness, but as far as breaking new ground is concerned, it’s incredibly slow. Any creativity in that process happens only in the formation of the basic axioms, or in accidents that occur along the way.

The process described in this article starts with an infinite set, and whittles away what doesn’t fit. This means there is no need to leap across a logical abyss because one approaches from the other side. It is much easier to build a bridge if someone is already on the other side. Likewise, once a radical idea has been confirmed using this process, it is much easier to work backwards and logically bridge the abyss. Also, the fitting together of ideas and sorting of truth from lies requires creativity at every step, so it’s the best method of achieving rapid innovation.


For a long time, perhaps, you have been thinking in a single paradigm. There are more ways to see the word than just from the materialist point of view.

+ Show Spoiler +
Paradigm Shifts and Aeonics
by Peter Carroll

All the philosophies, creeds, dogmas and beliefs that humanity has evolved are variants of three great paradigms, the Transcendental, the Materialist and the Magical. In no human culture has any one of these paradigms been completely distinct from the others. For example in our own culture at the time of writing the Transcendental and Magical paradigms are frequently confused together.

Transcendental philosophies are basically religious and manifest in a spectrum stretching from the fringes of primitive spiritism through pagan polytheism to the monotheism of the Judaeo-Christian- Islamic traditions and the theoretical non-theistic systems of Buddhism and Taoism. In each case it is believed that some form of consciousness or spirit created and maintains the universe and that humans, other living organisms, contain some fragment of this consciousness or spirit which underlies the veil or illusion of matter. The essence of Transcendentalism is belief in spiritual beings greater than oneself or states of spiritual being superior to that which currently one enjoys. Earthly life is frequently seen merely as a form of dialoque between oneself and one's deity or deities, or perhaps some impersonal form of higher force. The material world is a theatre for the spirit or soul or consciousness that created it. Spirit is the ultimate reality to the transcendentalist.

In the Materialist paradigm the universe is believed to consist fundamentally and entirely of matter. Energy is but a form of matter and together they subtend space and time within which all change occurs strictly on the basis of cause and effect. Human behaviour is reducible to biology, biology is reducible to chemistry, chemistry is reducible to physics and physics is reducible to mathematics. Mind and consciousness are thus merely electrochemical events in the brain and spirit is a word without objective content. The causes of some events are likely to remain obscure perhaps indefinitely, but there is an underlying faith that sufficient material cause must exist for any event. All human acts can be categorized as serving some biological need or as expressions of previously applied conditioning or merely as malfunction. The goal of materialist who eschews suicide is the pursuit of personal satisfaction including altruistic satisfactions if desired.

The main difficulty in recognizing and describing the pure Magical Paradigm is that of insufficient vocabulary. Magical philosophy is only recently recovering from a heavy adulteration with transcendental theory. The word aether will be used to describe the fundamental reality of the magical paradigm. It is more or less equivalent to the idea of Mana used in oceanic shamanism. Aether in materialistic descriptions is information which structures matter and which all matter is capable of emitting and receiving. In transcendental terms aether is a sort of 'life force' present in some degree in all things. It carries both knowledge about events and the ability to influence similar or sympathetic events. Events either arise sponataneously out of themselves or are encouraged to follow certain paths by influence of patterns in the aether. As all things have an aetheric part they can be considered to be alive in some sense. Thus all things happen by magic, the large scale features of the universe have a very strong aetheric pattern which makes them fairly predictable but difficult to influence by the aetheric patterns created by thought. Magicians see themselves as participating in nature. Transcendentalists like to think they are somehow above it. Materialists like to try and manipulate it.

Now this universe has the peculiarly accomodating property of tending to provide evidence for, and confirmation of, whatever paradigm one chooses to believe in. Presumably at some deep level there is a hidden symmetry between those things we call Matter, Aether and Spirit. Indeed, it is rare to find an individual or culture operating exclusively on a single one of these paradigms and none is ever entirely absent. Non-dominant paradigms are always present as superstitions and fears. A subsequent section on Aeonics will attempt to untangle the influences of each of these great world views throughout history, to see how they have interacted with each other and to predict future trends. In the meantime an analysis of the radically differing concepts of time and self in each paradigm is offered to more fully distinguish the basic ideas.

Transcendentalists conceive of time in millennial and apocalyptic terms. Time is regareded as having a definite beginning and ending, both initiated by the activities of spiritual beings or forces. The end of time on the personal and cosmic scale is regarded not so much as a cessation of being but as a change to a state of non-material being. The beginning of personal and cosmic time is similarly regarded as a creative act by spiritual agencies. Thus reproductive activity usually becomes heavily controlled and hedged about with taboo and restriction in religious cultures, as it implies an usurpation of the powers of deities. Reproduction also implies that death has in some measure been overcome. How awesome the power of creation and how final must earthly death subconsciously loom to a celibate and sterile priesthood.

All transcendentalisms embody elements of apocalyptism. Typically these are used to provoke revivals when business is slack or attention is drifting elsewhere. Thus it is suddenly revealed that the final days are at hand or that some earthly dispute is in fact a titanic battle against evil spiritual agencies.

Materialist time is linear but unbounded. Ideally it can be extended arbitrarily far in either direction from the present. To the strict materialist it is self-evidently futile to speculate about a beginning or an end to time. Similarly the materialist is contemptuous of any speculations about any forms of personal existence before birth or after death. The materialist may well fear painful or premature death but can have no fears about being dead.

The magical view is that time is cyclic and that all processes recur. Even cycles which appear to begin or end are actually parts of larger cycles. Thus all endings are beginnings and the end of time is synonymous with the beginning of time in another universe. The magical view that everything is recycled is reflected in the doctrine of reincarnation. The attractive idea of reincarnation has often persisted into the religious paradigm and many pagan and even some monotheist traditions have retained it. However religious theories invariably contaminate the original idea with beliefs about a personal soul. From a strictly magical viewpoint we are an accretion rather than an unfolded unity. The psyche has no particular centre, we are colonial beings, a rich collage of many selves. Thus as our bodies contain fragments from countless former beings, so does our psyche. However certain magical traditions retain techniques which allow the adept to transfer quite large amounts of his psyche in one piece should he consider this more useful than dispersing himself into humanity at large.

Each of the paradigms take a different view of the self. Transcendentalists view self as spirit inserted into matter. As a fragment or figment of deity the self regards itself as somehow placed in the world in a non-arbitrary manner and endowed with free will. The transcendental view of self is relatively stable and non-problematic if shared as a consensus with all significant others. However, transcendental theories about the placement and purpose of self and its relationship to deities are mutually exclusive. Conflicting transcendentalisms can rarely co-exist for they threaten to disconform the images of self. Encounters which are not decisive tend to be mutually negatory in the long run.

Of the three views of self the purely materialistic one is the most problematical. If mind is an extension of matter it must obey material laws and the resulting deterministic view conflicts with the subjective experience of free will. On the other hand if mind and consciousness are assumed to be qualitatively different from matter then the self is incomprehensible to itself in material terms. Worse still perhaps, the materialist self must regard itself as a phenomenon of only temporary duration in contradiction of the subjective expectation of continuity of consciousness. Because a purely materialist view of self is so austere few are prepared to confront such naked existentialism. Consequently materialist cultures exhibit a frantic appetite for sensation, identification and more or less disposable irrational beliefs. Anything that will make the self seem less insubstantial.

The magical view of self is that it is based on the same random capricious chaos which makes the universe exist and do what it does. The magical self has no centre, it is not a unity but an assemblage of parts, any number of which may temorarily club together and call themselves 'I'. This accords with the observation that our subjective experience consists of our various selves experiencing each other. Free will arises either as an outcome of a dispute between our various selves or as a sudden random creation of a new idea or option. In the magical view of self there is no spirit/matter or mind/body split and the paradoxes of free will and determinism disappear. Some of our acts arise from random choices between conditioned options and some from conditional choices between randomly created options. In practice most of our acts are based on rather complex hierarchical sequences of all four of these mechanisms. As soon as we have acted one of our selves proclaims 'I did that!' so loudly that most of the other selves think they did it too.

Each of the three views of self has something derogatory to say about the other two. From the standpoint of the transcendental self the materialist self has become prey to pride of intellect, the demon hubris, whilst the magical view of self is considered to be entirely demonic. The material self views the transcendentalist as obsessed with assumptions having no basis in fact, and the magical self as being childlike and incoherent. From the standpoint of the magical view, the assorted selves of the transcendendatilst have ascribed a grossly exaggerated importance to one or a few of the selves which they call God or gods, whilst the materialist has attempted to make all his selves subordinate to the self that does the rational thinking. Ultimately it's a matter of faith and taste. The transcedentalist has faith in his god self, the materialist has faith in his reasoning self and the selves of the magician have faith in each other. Naturally, all these forms of faith are subject to periods of doubt.



Thanks I'll read those over when I'm not feeling as intellectually lazy.


Anyways, why do you say your beliefs are constantly obliterated? I understand what you mean by that, but still I'd be interested if you could give some examples.


I guess my subjective values like what constitutes love, beauty, or courage. These words constantly mean different things to me as through the course of life I am deceived, disillusioned, or just external reality (or my perception I should say) imposes itself and sweeps the foundation out from under those beliefs.
moo
Augury
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States758 Posts
February 16 2009 02:02 GMT
#26
I'd take a few religious studies classes before you make any decisions about religion. Or at the very least look up the sources of the religions as well as their religious texts.
Enrique
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States377 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 02:10:07
February 16 2009 02:08 GMT
#27
On February 16 2009 10:45 yoshtodd wrote:
Is it really a mistake to find some sort of cause or reasoning? I've been successful I guess at avoiding that mistake. Constantly my answer to life's important questions is a resigned "I don't know", but I feel as though this leaves me empty and drifting. There are a few people I've met who seem genuinely filled with religion or spirituality or whatever and they have a sort of groundedness that I envy.

...
Thanks. I agree that life and perception are both moving and beautiful. It's just sometimes they feel unbearably painful too.


I don't think it's necessarily a mistake to search for a cause, but I do think there's a difference between accepting the unknown and resigning to it. I don't know what happens when people die. I assume they simply cease to be. However, since I don't know, and since I don't believe I'll ever know, I simply accept that I'll be without that knowledge. Being okay with a lack of answers is a hard thing to do. It took me a long time.

Believe me, I understand what you mean when you say you envy those people who seem so filled with religion and who are so grounded. Frankly, I envy that feeling of total security as well. It would make life and its infinite possibilities and questions so much simpler to just have all the answers we seek handed to us. But just as life might be easier if I believed in fate and predestination, so too would it also be less meaningful (to me, anyway). There are many times where I wish I could believe in something to make harsh realities of life make more sense, that there's some sort of eternal justice meted out in the universe.

However, to believe in something that seems (to me, again, anyway) entirely unfounded and unprovable for no other reason than to assuage my own conscience seems folly. Furthermore, it makes everything a little too neat. Sometimes complex problems and questions require complex answers. While those answers aren't readily apparent, I'd rather accept my limitations and find my way as best I can.

It can all be rough going, but you'll get there.
~Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges~
hazz
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom570 Posts
February 16 2009 02:08 GMT
#28
pro tip: be an agnostic christian
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 02:29:34
February 16 2009 02:10 GMT
#29
"agnostic" is such an ambiguous term

can be taken so many ways

"i'm not sure if there's a god or not"
"i dont think there will ever be a way to tell if there is a god or not, so belief shouldn't matter"
"there is no way to tell if there is a god or not, so belief doesn't matter"
"there is a god/creator, i just don't know what kind"
"there is a christian god, i just dont know which denomination is right about him"

for reference, i'm the second definition
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hazz
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom570 Posts
February 16 2009 02:12 GMT
#30
the 2nd definition is the main one and the most logical

also if it turns out there is a god u can just say "Lol sry god" @ the gates of heaven and get let in
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 02:15:54
February 16 2009 02:13 GMT
#31
Agnostic
One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

agnosticism does not preclude theism
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
ShaperofDreams
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2492 Posts
February 16 2009 02:16 GMT
#32
I don't think you need a religion, I just think you need a philosophy. Studying religion is a great way to get one, take the pieces of the things you like from a bunch of different religions and exclude the things you don't like, there is no need to join an organization where you are expected to agree 100% with them.
Bitches don't know about my overlord. FUCK OFF ALDARIS I HAVE ENOUGH PYLONS. My Balls are as smooth as Eggs.
Igakusei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States610 Posts
February 16 2009 02:25 GMT
#33
Pretty much everyone involved in a particular religion or denomination believes that their religion is the "correct" one. People also form their opinions about the world based on what those around them as they grow up believe, or in other cases on some external influence that makes more sense to them than that of the way they were raised. Seems kinda silly, right? well if you as an adult are seeking religion, as you put it, seek with an open mind and an honest heart and you'll find it. I believe in God and in particular the truths put forward by a specific denomination, but I believe that God has children in every spiritual discipline. I mean seriously, what kind of loving God is going to judge someone raised in an "incorrect" religion who never had the opportunity to meet him? I'm not going to tell you what is right or wrong, because what is right and wrong for me isn't necessarily right or wrong for you. Everyone needs to discover for themselves what kind of person they need to be.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 02:35:41
February 16 2009 02:27 GMT
#34
On February 16 2009 11:13 Mindcrime wrote:
Agnostic
One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

agnosticism does not preclude theism

i'veheard it defined so many different ways in various places

and i have so many friends who thinks it precludes theism ( i personally don't, and i do think that the definition you copypasted makes the most sense, but i do accept that it's become an umbrella term for all the things i listed)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism#Types_of_agnosticism
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Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 16 2009 03:04 GMT
#35
--- Nuked ---
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 16 2009 03:09 GMT
#36
hey mada_jiang

message from god

he's pretty pissed off at you for losing faith in his creations
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Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 04:00:13
February 16 2009 03:42 GMT
#37
Ahh the crisis of meaning.
Sure religion can give you meaning.
Problem is it is pretty clearly an immature bullshit sort of meaning.
You seem to understand this well enough.
But having more open attitude towards meaning tends to makes you question the grounds for your beliefs and meaning itself.
Funny how this goes eh?

Some advice?
Really don't know enough about you and why you might be feeling this way.
Of course if you actually become depressed/suicidal, seek medical help.
You know, typically to mend emotions you turn to friends, or even go to a psychologist if needed, not a philosopher.

If you are intrested in Buddhism I would suggest starting with this:
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html
As far as science's place I will echo Philosopher Robert Kirk's words:
"As intelligent creatures with complex sensory systems, living in communities
which have developed rich cultures, including language, we experience the
world from a wide range of different perspectives, and come to see the things
about us as enmeshed in networks of significance. The Core Scientific Story
at least begins to explain how there can be beings to whom things matter,
and who devise non-scientific vocabularies for talking about what matters to
them."

Seems you are on your way to being a more mature person. There is at least some comfort in growing as a person and realizing the complexities of the world you live in better hmm.
Free free to ask any questions about philosophy as I should usually be able to point you in the right places.

v Quite right. I already edited that away though. You are quick!
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 16 2009 03:48 GMT
#38
On February 16 2009 12:42 Knickknack wrote:
Seems you are on your way to being a more mature person. Find some solstice in that.


The word you are looking for is solace.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 16 2009 03:49 GMT
#39
woah ninja edit
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 16 2009 03:49 GMT
#40
On February 16 2009 12:48 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2009 12:42 Knickknack wrote:
Seems you are on your way to being a more mature person. Find some solstice in that.


The word you are looking for is solace.

ninja edit'd
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SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 03:52:23
February 16 2009 03:49 GMT
#41
shit ninja posted

edit: at least i can find some equinox in the fact that mindcrime is my smurf
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extracheez
Profile Joined January 2009
Australia151 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 04:02:04
February 16 2009 03:52 GMT
#42
On February 16 2009 10:10 yoshtodd wrote:
I pretty much grew up without religion and never really felt like I was missing out on anything. When occasionally my Mom would take us to church I found it to be silly, embarrassing, and sometimes a bit frightening. Growing up I felt revulsion and distrust of the glassy eyed, self righteous breed of religious zealot I occasionally came across. I learned to respect reason and knowledge and for a long time that seemed to be satisfactory enough, as far as the search for meaning goes.

At this point in my life it no longer feels adequate. I've had a personal taste of just how clumsily science currently deals with matters of the emotions and the soul. It is precisely these areas of my life that are in need of mending, and I believe that at least as of now science does not contain any true remedy.

It seems to be fashionable these days to despise religion. I went through a phase of feeling that way but now I'm beginning to think that I don't understand it well enough to be in any place to judge. I've tried attending (Buddhist) church a few times recently but I just feel so disingenuous and awkward. Little bits of the teaching really resonate with me but others I just want to reject as pure nonsense. I'm just tired of not believing in anything and finding my existence to be totally meaningless. My confidence and strength have been ground away into nothing, and I feel as though I require something that lies beyond the material world, to keep my feet moving forward.



Fashionable to hate religion? Maybe where you live. Around here pretty much everyone looks down on me for being an atheist lol. I do understand what you mean to some extent, I meet very few atheists who actually have no faith for a decent reason.

I find it really frustrating when people tell me that as an atheist I have no morals and no reason for existence. When in fact the very thing I want to study when I go to college is how our morals evolved from when we were primitive to how they are now. As for a reason to exist... feels good man. Is it not enough to want to live a happy life, accomplish some goals, meets the one, have kids, die, do I have to be on a mission from the big man up stairs to feel complete?

I say make your own mission! If you are missing something in your life, FIND IT YOURSELF. There is no need to go to a church and have people tell you how things are, find out yourself! I can tell you countless stories of my friends who travel and volunteer work at missions ect.

First of all I think before you jump on the search for a religion, you need to understand this science that you think is heading down the wrong road... go read some books on anything that interests you. If its why we are here or why do I have an empty feeling? Try some philosophy or psychology.

Secondly, if you feel empty, do some hard work to fill that emptiness with anything you think could make you happy. Go skydiving. Run a marathon. Go help at your local volunteer center :shrug: I dono its your life.

I generally leave the religious folk alone, I don't like imposing my views on anyone... I just... I hate to hear "Life has no meaning without religion", because its false. Its just harder to find meaning in your life without religion, because you have to search for it, its not handed to you on a silver platter.

Think for yourself man

EDIT: One of the other posters who was christian and said that religion is about reaching god is right, if your looking for a religion your doing it wrong. I've had many discussions with various Christians and Catholics and you can really tell when someone has real faith... its... not blind faith... they see their faith in everything... gah I don't know how to explain it any better than that... but yeah, the best way I can explain it is when I look at a plant and think of all the cells and mathematical equations and I KNOW all this stuff is real because I've seen it, tested its logic and there is no other way, they look at the plant and know its gods because they have seen it, tested its logic and know there is no other way.

I was raised catholic and was very devout up until my teen years where I was torn between science and religion. Knowledge and belief. What I realized is that you cant just believe in god, you have to know him. Considering I only knew science, I formally announced myself an atheist, much to my families horror ;D
conCentrate9
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States438 Posts
February 16 2009 04:02 GMT
#43
On February 16 2009 10:23 IdrA wrote:
i describe what the religion itself claims happened and its so absurd its perceived as an attack.


HE READ GOLDEN TABLETS WRITTEN IN A LANGUAGE HE DIDNT KNOW WITH THE HELP OF A ROCK IN A FUCKING HAT AND HE WOULDNT LET ANYONE ELSE SEE THE TABLETS


That is all.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 04:10:51
February 16 2009 04:07 GMT
#44
On February 16 2009 13:02 conCentrate9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2009 10:23 IdrA wrote:
i describe what the religion itself claims happened and its so absurd its perceived as an attack.


Show nested quote +
HE READ GOLDEN TABLETS WRITTEN IN A LANGUAGE HE DIDNT KNOW WITH THE HELP OF A ROCK IN A FUCKING HAT AND HE WOULDNT LET ANYONE ELSE SEE THE TABLETS


That is all.

he didn't misrepresent, he stated what the religion states in a sarcastic tone

if what the religion stated was obviously true, idra would look the fool

ex:

LOL HE SAID THE EARTH IS ROUND AND IT ISNT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE. AND LOL OBJECTS TEND TO STAY IN MOTION AND DONT FUCKING STOP.
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SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 16 2009 04:09 GMT
#45
On February 16 2009 12:52 extracheez wrote:
I was raised catholic and was very devout up until my teen years where I was torn between science and religion. Knowledge and belief. What I realized is that you cant just believe in god, you have to know him. Considering I only knew science, I formally announced myself an atheist, much to my families horror ;D

HOHO REASON DEFEATS DOGMA

tuna is pleased
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IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 16 2009 04:16 GMT
#46
On February 16 2009 13:02 conCentrate9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2009 10:23 IdrA wrote:
i describe what the religion itself claims happened and its so absurd its perceived as an attack.


Show nested quote +
HE READ GOLDEN TABLETS WRITTEN IN A LANGUAGE HE DIDNT KNOW WITH THE HELP OF A ROCK IN A FUCKING HAT AND HE WOULDNT LET ANYONE ELSE SEE THE TABLETS


That is all.

hows that an attack?
im being entirely serious, that is exactly what mormons themselves say happened.


well i guess they usually dont call it a fucking hat
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 04:27:51
February 16 2009 04:26 GMT
#47
On February 16 2009 13:16 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2009 13:02 conCentrate9 wrote:
On February 16 2009 10:23 IdrA wrote:
i describe what the religion itself claims happened and its so absurd its perceived as an attack.


HE READ GOLDEN TABLETS WRITTEN IN A LANGUAGE HE DIDNT KNOW WITH THE HELP OF A ROCK IN A FUCKING HAT AND HE WOULDNT LET ANYONE ELSE SEE THE TABLETS


That is all.

hows that an attack?
im being entirely serious, that is exactly what mormons themselves say happened.


well i guess they usually dont call it a fucking hat

I thought Mormons said that there were gold writings on leaves...

Or am I thinking of some other religion...

EDIT: Yes, I'm thinking of something else lol
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 20:23:35
February 16 2009 04:30 GMT
#48
on the subject of Mormonism, could one of the kind, Mormon fellows on TL explain the significance of the temple garments?

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
extracheez
Profile Joined January 2009
Australia151 Posts
February 16 2009 05:01 GMT
#49
Fight or flight, care to elaborate on the "magical view" because that didn't really make much sense to me.
Shuffleus
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Australia764 Posts
February 16 2009 06:07 GMT
#50
Listen to storm by tim minchin. Great song, clears up the mind.

| QuanticGaming.com | There is no greater feeling then to find order in the chaos, as you slip the puzzle pieces in place.
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
February 16 2009 08:11 GMT
#51
On February 16 2009 14:01 extracheez wrote:
Fight or flight, care to elaborate on the "magical view" because that didn't really make much sense to me.

Well I'm not really an expert in this subject or anything, but I'll see if I can sum up what they are saying.

The magical view seems to take the viewpoint that the universe is a continually recurring and cyclical object, where all is one and everything is endowed with a type of god-like essence. There is no god to judge you, or any spiritual being that is necessarily superior to you. Presumably, the universe can be controlled through arcane knowledge. Like scientists, magicians seek to control the world around them. By gaining knowledge they can become powerful.

That is my impression anyway.
Do you really want chat rooms?
extracheez
Profile Joined January 2009
Australia151 Posts
February 16 2009 10:26 GMT
#52
On February 16 2009 17:11 fight_or_flight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2009 14:01 extracheez wrote:
Fight or flight, care to elaborate on the "magical view" because that didn't really make much sense to me.

Well I'm not really an expert in this subject or anything, but I'll see if I can sum up what they are saying.

The magical view seems to take the viewpoint that the universe is a continually recurring and cyclical object, where all is one and everything is endowed with a type of god-like essence. There is no god to judge you, or any spiritual being that is necessarily superior to you. Presumably, the universe can be controlled through arcane knowledge. Like scientists, magicians seek to control the world around them. By gaining knowledge they can become powerful.

That is my impression anyway.


I really... really don't mean to be putting it down but its going to come out that way anyways... what the fuck are they on about? Magicians? Is this some new cult? I'm only asking because I've never heard of this before and I'm curious.
REDBLUEGREEN
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Germany1903 Posts
February 16 2009 13:51 GMT
#53
Hm have you considered reading some philosophy books?
Marradron
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Netherlands1586 Posts
February 16 2009 14:31 GMT
#54
Really stop caring about why when and how.

just live as it is. Im a scientific person and i believe in time anything can be explained. Though an explaination wont help you at all. Knowing why how and when will not help you make your decisions.

but if you really think you HAVE to join a religion dont. Religion is great for mindless people who like stories about how it all is without any clear proof. Its okay to understand all religions and make your own conclusion. But really just think for yourself theres no need for a intelligent person to follow this stupid cow behaviour
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
February 16 2009 14:49 GMT
#55
On February 16 2009 10:10 yoshtodd wrote:
I pretty much grew up without religion and never really felt like I was missing out on anything. When occasionally my Mom would take us to church I found it to be silly, embarrassing, and sometimes a bit frightening. Growing up I felt revulsion and distrust of the glassy eyed, self righteous breed of religious zealot I occasionally came across. I learned to respect reason and knowledge and for a long time that seemed to be satisfactory enough, as far as the search for meaning goes.

At this point in my life it no longer feels adequate. I've had a personal taste of just how clumsily science currently deals with matters of the emotions and the soul. It is precisely these areas of my life that are in need of mending, and I believe that at least as of now science does not contain any true remedy.

It seems to be fashionable these days to despise religion. I went through a phase of feeling that way but now I'm beginning to think that I don't understand it well enough to be in any place to judge. I've tried attending (Buddhist) church a few times recently but I just feel so disingenuous and awkward. Little bits of the teaching really resonate with me but others I just want to reject as pure nonsense. I'm just tired of not believing in anything and finding my existence to be totally meaningless. My confidence and strength have been ground away into nothing, and I feel as though I require something that lies beyond the material world, to keep my feet moving forward.


Do what you want about following a religion, but don't knock science because you don't understand it/like the answers it has. I find most people who dislike science are people who think science is what journalists report in newspapers in magazines, rather than what it actually is: tests, experiments and the creation of reliable data. Science is knowing what you know. Not the game of broken telephone you play with journalists. Emotions are the stimulation of neurons and hormones in specific ways. Souls haven't been proven. Afterlife hasn't been proven. Doesn't mean either is impossible, but why should you adopt a religion just to hear someone lie and say they know for sure?

What I'm saying is you don't need religion. You can believe in souls and the afterlife without an organized community of other people who believe exactly the same. Faith is exactly what it says it is. It's not an answer anymore than any crack pot theory you might have mistaken for science.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-16 18:10:10
February 16 2009 18:09 GMT
#56
When you see what happen on earth everyday, it means that God is either a pervert or a fucking lazy and autist guy who does't really care about "his children".

"God is love" is pure bs.
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
ZerG~LegenD
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Sweden1179 Posts
February 16 2009 20:05 GMT
#57
I know what ye seek, The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

On a less serious note Scientolgy might also deserve a mention.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
yoshtodd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States418 Posts
February 16 2009 20:42 GMT
#58
On February 16 2009 23:49 Chef wrote:
Do what you want about following a religion, but don't knock science because you don't understand it/like the answers it has. I find most people who dislike science are people who think science is what journalists report in newspapers in magazines, rather than what it actually is: tests, experiments and the creation of reliable data. Science is knowing what you know. Not the game of broken telephone you play with journalists. Emotions are the stimulation of neurons and hormones in specific ways. Souls haven't been proven. Afterlife hasn't been proven. Doesn't mean either is impossible, but why should you adopt a religion just to hear someone lie and say they know for sure?

What I'm saying is you don't need religion. You can believe in souls and the afterlife without an organized community of other people who believe exactly the same. Faith is exactly what it says it is. It's not an answer anymore than any crack pot theory you might have mistaken for science.


I get the feeling you really dislike me by the way you respond to me when I post a blog, has what I've written offended you so much? Sorry but don't lump me into that group of people that "dislike science". I won't claim to be a tome of walking knowledge on it but for my whole life I've been fascinated and interested in it but I attribute that to the home I grew up in more than my own merit. Maybe I just shouldn't have used the word science the way I did, I mean more the abuses of it right now particularly in the field of Psychiatry. You talk of crack pot theories, right after claiming with such certainty and conviction that "Emotions are the stimulation of neurons and hormones in specific ways.". It's precisely that theory that I was lamenting when I referred to the short comings of science. It is being used and manipulated in ways that deal all sorts of damage to people's minds and lives right now, but I guess you're right that it's not the fault of science itself, only its distortion by those who wield its name with greed and ineptitude.
moo
Savio
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1850 Posts
February 16 2009 20:51 GMT
#59
On February 16 2009 13:30 Mindcrime wrote:
on the subject of Mormonism, could one of the kind, Mormon fellows on TL explain the significance of the temple garments?



Its a little long: (exerpt)
+ Show Spoiler +

It should be understood that “the things of the Lord” (2 Ne. 4:16) have included sacred clothing from the very beginning of this world. The scriptures contain many references to the wearing of special garments by the ancients. Prior to their expulsion from the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were clad in sacred clothing. We read: “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them” (Gen. 3:21).

They received this clothing in a context of instruction on the Atonement, sacrifice, repentance, and forgiveness (see Moses 5:5–8). The temple garment given to Latter-day Saints is provided in a similar context. It is given to remind wearers of the continuing need for repentance, the need to honor binding covenants made in the house of the Lord, and the need to cherish and share virtue in our daily living so that promised blessings may be claimed.

Moses was commanded to place holy garments and priestly vestments upon Aaron and others, thus preparing them to officiate in the tabernacle. Said the Lord to Moses, “And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel … and thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty … that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office” (Ex. 28:1–3).

References to Aaron’s clothing and the vestments of the priesthood worn by selected leaders in Old Testament times are accompanied by expressions such as “precious garments,” “glorious garments,” “garments of honor,” “coats of glory,” and “garments of salvation.” 3 These expressions may apply more particularly to the raiment worn by those who officiated in tabernacle or temple rites; nevertheless, these descriptive words also apply to the sacred clothing worn on a daily basis by “those who call themselves by [God’s] name and are essaying to [become] saints” (D&C 125:2). The honor, glory, and precious nature of sacred garments, whether worn only in the temple or in everyday life under street clothes, transcend the material of which they are made. Their full worth and beauty are appreciated and regarded as precious or glorious when viewed through the “eye of faith” (Alma 5:15).

“The garment is inadequate without the thing that it signifies. … It won’t protect you unless you’re true and faithful to your covenant, and only to the degree to which you don’t dishonor your garment has it any significance at all. Only on that condition that you don’t dishonor it, that you’re pure, that you are true and faithful to your covenant—does the garment have any benefit,” wrote Hugh Nibley, an emeritus professor of ancient scripture at Brigham Young University. 4

Yes, garments have been worn by prophets and other righteous Saints throughout the ages, whenever the ordinances of the priesthood and the temple have been available to the children of men. When the Church was restored to the earth in our day, the sacred priesthood ordinances associated with the holy temple were revealed anew to the Prophet Joseph Smith. The revelations he received included instructions about the garment.

Many references are found in the scriptures relating to garments and clothing. Enoch declared: “I beheld the heavens open, and I was clothed upon with glory” (Moses 7:3). Jacob spoke of a day of judgment when “we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness” (2 Ne. 9:14). Isaiah rejoiced, saying, “God … hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness” (Isa. 61:10). Alma referred to “all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white” (Alma 5:24). These and other prophetic statements suggest not only a cleanliness and purity within one’s soul, but also a spotless covering over one’s soul, signifying a life of goodness and devotion to God.


--http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=92ba196b5a1eb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

“An Outward Expression of an Inward Commitment”

By Elder Carlos E. Asay (1926–1999)
Emeritus Member of the First Quorum of the Seventy and Former President of the Salt Lake Temple
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. – Winston Churchill
yoshtodd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States418 Posts
February 16 2009 20:51 GMT
#60
To those who've suggested I read up on psychology or philosophy... I've read some Kierkegaard, Nietszche and Plato, any suggestions on specific books that were enlightening? As for the religious books pretty much all I've read is on Buddhism, tried reading the Bible once cover to cover but I just can't seem to stomach it. That's a good idea about taking a survey of religion class, I'll probably sign up for that in the fall.

Sorry for not responding to everyone specifically, I do read all the responses but actually writing is a draining and tiring process I don't know why. Thanks for the various good musings and ideas though, I'll try to keep them in mind as I search for whatever it is that might fill this spiritual void.
moo
TechniQ.UK
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United Kingdom391 Posts
February 16 2009 22:21 GMT
#61
The only thing that can fill the spiritual void you feel is Jesus Christ.

Buddhism and all the rest of it is just strangehoods and human spiritual empowerment and it is not of God.

Jesus is the only way to salvation and true spiritual blessing.

Fan of: Acer.Scarlett and Liquid'NonY //
Lemonwalrus
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States5465 Posts
February 16 2009 23:06 GMT
#62
On February 17 2009 07:21 TechniQ.UK wrote:
The only thing that can fill the spiritual void you feel is Jesus Christ.

Buddhism and all the rest of it is just strangehoods and human spiritual empowerment and it is not of God.

Jesus is the only way to salvation and true spiritual blessing.


everything he just said, but replace Jesus Christ with a random inanimate object in your room, perhaps a box of wheat-thins.

And, just for good measure, go ahead and replace Buddhism with something else too, maybe a schoolbus, or a box of lemurs.
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
February 16 2009 23:31 GMT
#63
On February 17 2009 08:06 Lemonwalrus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 07:21 TechniQ.UK wrote:
The only thing that can fill the spiritual void you feel is Jesus Christ.

Buddhism and all the rest of it is just strangehoods and human spiritual empowerment and it is not of God.

Jesus is the only way to salvation and true spiritual blessing.


everything he just said, but replace Jesus Christ with a random inanimate object in your room, perhaps a box of wheat-thins.

And, just for good measure, go ahead and replace Buddhism with something else too, maybe a schoolbus, or a box of lemurs.

Are dismissing Jesus because you disagree with the bible, or because you disagree with his teachings?
Do you really want chat rooms?
Nytefish
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United Kingdom4282 Posts
February 17 2009 00:03 GMT
#64
I'm the opposite to you. I was brought up with religion, went to Bible school, church and all that stuff. But over time I became disinterested, I didn't really care what happened to me when I died,it didn't matter if I was just a random event and my existence has no significant meaning.

I got bored with being told to believe things and that I would never be able to prove or disprove it (my parents also did a poor job lying about santa claus, tooth fairy and the easter bunny, that might have something to do with it).

If I wanted answers to those questions I probably wouldn't be satisfied with what science and logic has to offer and thus have some interest in religion, but I just don't care. So what if there's nothing after death, no need to get depressed about it, just live life as it is and find whatever meaning you want.
No I'm never serious.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 17 2009 00:37 GMT
#65
On February 17 2009 07:21 TechniQ.UK wrote:
The only thing that can fill the spiritual void you feel is Jesus Christ.

Buddhism and all the rest of it is just strangehoods and human spiritual empowerment and it is not of God.

Jesus is the only way to salvation and true spiritual blessing.


what makes christianity better than islam or judaism?
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
TechniQ.UK
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United Kingdom391 Posts
February 17 2009 01:21 GMT
#66
Christianity is a continuation of judaism therefore the jews have rejected their messiah as prophesied and are still simply using the rituals that we're a shadow for the saviour to come and since they have rejected him well the bible says that Jesus is the only way to salvation and he is so they don't have Jesus they don't have salvation.

The history of Islam, the history of the quran is very very dodgy

(for example we have one bible. Even scholars applaud the fact that the bible has been maintained at least 95 percent accurate across all Greek, Hebrew texts used for the bible and the majority of the differences are minor word changes or grammar.) with the quran it's been heavily edited, large sections of it have been removed stuff like that.

http://www.geocities.com/worldview_3/quranvbible.html

That site is quite a good rebuke to the quran compared to the bible using both the scriptures in clear view.


Anyway, enjoy.


Fan of: Acer.Scarlett and Liquid'NonY //
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 17 2009 01:32 GMT
#67
On February 17 2009 10:21 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Christianity is a continuation of judaism therefore the jews have rejected their messiah as prophesied


We've been over this; many required prophecies have not been fulfilled.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 17 2009 01:38 GMT
#68
On February 17 2009 10:21 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Christianity is a continuation of judaism therefore the jews have rejected their messiah as prophesied and are still simply using the rituals that we're a shadow for the saviour to come and since they have rejected him well the bible says that Jesus is the only way to salvation and he is so they don't have Jesus they don't have salvation.

The history of Islam, the history of the quran is very very dodgy

(for example we have one bible. Even scholars applaud the fact that the bible has been maintained at least 95 percent accurate across all Greek, Hebrew texts used for the bible and the majority of the differences are minor word changes or grammar.) with the quran it's been heavily edited, large sections of it have been removed stuff like that.

http://www.geocities.com/worldview_3/quranvbible.html

That site is quite a good rebuke to the quran compared to the bible using both the scriptures in clear view.


Anyway, enjoy.



what?
you know mary wasnt actually a virgin right?
the original hebrew or greek or whatever used a word that simply meant young lady, and it was mistranslated as virgin.

ya. word of god ftw.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 01:48:49
February 17 2009 01:48 GMT
#69
On February 17 2009 10:38 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 10:21 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Christianity is a continuation of judaism therefore the jews have rejected their messiah as prophesied and are still simply using the rituals that we're a shadow for the saviour to come and since they have rejected him well the bible says that Jesus is the only way to salvation and he is so they don't have Jesus they don't have salvation.

The history of Islam, the history of the quran is very very dodgy

(for example we have one bible. Even scholars applaud the fact that the bible has been maintained at least 95 percent accurate across all Greek, Hebrew texts used for the bible and the majority of the differences are minor word changes or grammar.) with the quran it's been heavily edited, large sections of it have been removed stuff like that.

http://www.geocities.com/worldview_3/quranvbible.html

That site is quite a good rebuke to the quran compared to the bible using both the scriptures in clear view.


Anyway, enjoy.



what?
you know mary wasnt actually a virgin right?
the original hebrew or greek or whatever used a word that simply meant young lady, and it was mistranslated as virgin.

ya. word of god ftw.


The original Hebrew used is 'almah' which means 'young woman.' However, it can also mean 'virgin' mainly because from a cultural standpoint, unmarried women were usually or assumed to be virgins. Therefore the use of this word only implied that Mary was a virgin, but does not specifically state she was.

When translations of Isaiah were done to Greek, even before the birth of Christ (as a prophesy), the word used meant 'virgin.'

All of this points to the fact that Mary was prophesied and implied to be a virgin, but not necessarily a virgin.
Soli Deo gloria.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 02:07:21
February 17 2009 01:49 GMT
#70
hey techniq get back in your own thread, faggot

edit: or is it more comfortable for you to go into other threads preaching your specific version of christianity rather than to recognize you are one of the greatest enemies of reason and logical thinking?
posting on liquid sites in current year
Lemonwalrus
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States5465 Posts
February 17 2009 02:14 GMT
#71
On February 17 2009 08:31 fight_or_flight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 08:06 Lemonwalrus wrote:
On February 17 2009 07:21 TechniQ.UK wrote:
The only thing that can fill the spiritual void you feel is Jesus Christ.

Buddhism and all the rest of it is just strangehoods and human spiritual empowerment and it is not of God.

Jesus is the only way to salvation and true spiritual blessing.


everything he just said, but replace Jesus Christ with a random inanimate object in your room, perhaps a box of wheat-thins.

And, just for good measure, go ahead and replace Buddhism with something else too, maybe a schoolbus, or a box of lemurs.

Are dismissing Jesus because you disagree with the bible, or because you disagree with his teachings?

If I had to pick one, I would say I dismiss Jesus because I disagree with the bible.

However, in this post, I was disagreeing with the smug way that Techniq presents his religion as the truth and insults everything that isn't it.
statix
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States1760 Posts
February 17 2009 02:16 GMT
#72
On February 17 2009 10:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
hey techniq get back in your own thread, faggot

edit: or is it more comfortable for you to go into other threads preaching your specific version of christianity rather than to recognize you are one of the greatest enemies of reason and logical thinking?



what's wrong with him giving his recommendation for a means to fill the OP's spiritual void? atleast he's contributing to the thread and not being a fucking tool like you in this thread and the other one.

quit being a dick. you're not funny.
SCC-Caliban
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 02:21:41
February 17 2009 02:19 GMT
#73
On February 17 2009 11:16 statix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 10:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
hey techniq get back in your own thread, faggot

edit: or is it more comfortable for you to go into other threads preaching your specific version of christianity rather than to recognize you are one of the greatest enemies of reason and logical thinking?



what's wrong with him giving his recommendation for a means to fill the OP's spiritual void? atleast he's contributing to the thread and not being a fucking tool like you in this thread and the other one.

quit being a dick. you're not funny.

i'm not being a dick to be a dick or to be funny. as i think i've stated before, i don't dislike christianity or religion in general, i only dislike the flavors that discourage reason and logical thinking. techniq's style of preaching happens to be extremely loathesome to me, and in the other thread, i'm attempting to show him why his mindset is so stifling to reason. yes, i use sarcasm, yes, i pepper in personal attacks, but my points are valid and you have less of a right to tell me to shut up than the amount of right i have to tell techniq to go back to his own thread and respond to my arguments.

so quit being a dick, you're not productive.
posting on liquid sites in current year
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 17 2009 02:24 GMT
#74
+ Show Spoiler +
the fine print to my previous post is that i find that most religions tend to stifle reason
posting on liquid sites in current year
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 17 2009 02:39 GMT
#75
--- Nuked ---
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
February 17 2009 02:41 GMT
#76
On February 17 2009 11:19 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 11:16 statix wrote:
On February 17 2009 10:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
hey techniq get back in your own thread, faggot

edit: or is it more comfortable for you to go into other threads preaching your specific version of christianity rather than to recognize you are one of the greatest enemies of reason and logical thinking?



what's wrong with him giving his recommendation for a means to fill the OP's spiritual void? atleast he's contributing to the thread and not being a fucking tool like you in this thread and the other one.

quit being a dick. you're not funny.

i'm not being a dick to be a dick or to be funny. as i think i've stated before, i don't dislike christianity or religion in general, i only dislike the flavors that discourage reason and logical thinking. techniq's style of preaching happens to be extremely loathesome to me, and in the other thread, i'm attempting to show him why his mindset is so stifling to reason. yes, i use sarcasm, yes, i pepper in personal attacks, but my points are valid and you have less of a right to tell me to shut up than the amount of right i have to tell techniq to go back to his own thread and respond to my arguments.

so quit being a dick, you're not productive.


This is probably why he doesn't listen to you. Your advice may be sound but your tone is unproductive and distracts the recipient from your main points.
Soli Deo gloria.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 17 2009 02:44 GMT
#77
On February 17 2009 11:41 Chromyne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 11:19 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 11:16 statix wrote:
On February 17 2009 10:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
hey techniq get back in your own thread, faggot

edit: or is it more comfortable for you to go into other threads preaching your specific version of christianity rather than to recognize you are one of the greatest enemies of reason and logical thinking?



what's wrong with him giving his recommendation for a means to fill the OP's spiritual void? atleast he's contributing to the thread and not being a fucking tool like you in this thread and the other one.

quit being a dick. you're not funny.

i'm not being a dick to be a dick or to be funny. as i think i've stated before, i don't dislike christianity or religion in general, i only dislike the flavors that discourage reason and logical thinking. techniq's style of preaching happens to be extremely loathesome to me, and in the other thread, i'm attempting to show him why his mindset is so stifling to reason. yes, i use sarcasm, yes, i pepper in personal attacks, but my points are valid and you have less of a right to tell me to shut up than the amount of right i have to tell techniq to go back to his own thread and respond to my arguments.

so quit being a dick, you're not productive.


This is probably why he doesn't listen to you. Your advice may be sound but your tone is unproductive and distracts the recipient from your main points.

the only sarcasm i used in that other thread was in metaphor to demonstrate my point

i avoided personal attacks as much as possible too, and i now regret using "faggot" in this thread, but seriously, my negativity is not so overwhelming such that my argument's stopped looking like an argument.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
February 17 2009 03:07 GMT
#78
On February 17 2009 10:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
hey techniq get back in your own thread, faggot

edit: or is it more comfortable for you to go into other threads preaching your specific version of christianity rather than to recognize you are one of the greatest enemies of reason and logical thinking?


In response to your actual post, Techniq's post was justified in a sense that he was responding to the OP; it's less 'preachy' when you're responding than when it's unwanted.

Techniq's post is what he believes to be true, and truth in itself is offensive. For example:

1 + 1 = 2 (Let's just assume this to be a fact). This may offend some people who think otherwise, but it won't change the fact that 1 + 1 = 2. If one person thinks the sum is 3, and another, 1, it doesn't mean that there is no correct answer.

This analogy doesn't equate perfectly but this is similar to religious pluralism. Assuming some sort of supernatural being, if there are multiple religions making different claims about the same topic (afterlife, gods, etc.) then not all can be correct.
Soli Deo gloria.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 03:19:03
February 17 2009 03:11 GMT
#79
On February 17 2009 12:07 Chromyne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 10:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
hey techniq get back in your own thread, faggot

edit: or is it more comfortable for you to go into other threads preaching your specific version of christianity rather than to recognize you are one of the greatest enemies of reason and logical thinking?


In response to your actual post, Techniq's post was justified in a sense that he was responding to the OP; it's less 'preachy' when you're responding than when it's unwanted.

Techniq's post is what he believes to be true, and truth in itself is offensive. For example:

1 + 1 = 2 (Let's just assume this to be a fact). This may offend some people who think otherwise, but it won't change the fact that 1 + 1 = 2. If one person thinks the sum is 3, and another, 1, it doesn't mean that there is no correct answer.

This analogy doesn't equate perfectly but this is similar to religious pluralism. Assuming some sort of supernatural being, if there are multiple religions making different claims about the same topic (afterlife, gods, etc.) then not all can be correct.


hey look i made an extremely similar point in the other thread

On February 16 2009 10:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
also the fact that you're claiming that all atheists love sin is simply ridiculous. "god is not real" is not a justification of sin, it's one of the possible explanations of all the contradictions within support for god. ptolemy tried to slightly modify aristotlean physics to make it still work, but copernicus/newton/galileo threw them out and got the right answer.

aristotle = bible
ptolemy = each denomination of christianity (or even judaism and islam)
copernicus/newton/galileo = agnosticism/atheism

ptolemy could've been right, but he wasnt

each denomination of christianity could be right since they're all tweaks of the same basic concept, and i'm not saying that all of them HAVE to be wrong, but if one of them is right, then the others have to be wrong, and adhering to one is like playing the lottery

not a very good chance


to further explicate this analogy, aristotle claimed that earth was at the center of the universe, and the stars were all on a spherical shell rotating around the earth. observations of the night sky matched this for the most part, except for the problem of "the wanderers" (which were actually the planets), objects that sometimes traveled with the stars, sometimes went backwards or at different speeds. aristotle ignored this contradiction completely.

ptolemy attempted to fix this problem by adding the idea of epicycles, little circles that the planets made while traveling with the overall sphere of the stars. this matched rudimentary observations, but as precision got better, the observations kept getting tweaked. in fact, he moved earth slightly off the center of the universe at one point, which was really revolutionary at the time, and i can really respect hiim for this. just because he was wrong doesn't mean he was an enemy of reason. the difference between ptolemy and people like techniq.uk is that ptolemy was flexible.

fast forward a thousand years+, copernicus decides to try to fix these inconsistencies by putting the sun at the center of the universe, the earth revolving around the sun, and the planets also doing so. his papers were published posthumously, because science's best friend, the catholic church, would've totally excommunicated and killed him if he challenged aristotlean physics outright (a prime example of dogma being an enemy of reason). however, once the ideas were out, they were out, and they helped lead to the development of things like kepler's laws and newtonian physics.
posting on liquid sites in current year
FragKrag
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States11552 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 03:22:55
February 17 2009 03:21 GMT
#80
Because of what Scientology does, you can help create new and better realities. Being a Scientologist when you drive past an accident, you're not like anyone else. You have to do something about it because you know you are the only one who can help. It really is an opportunity to help people and change people's lives. Scientologists are the authorities on getting people off drugs, making better conditions, rehabilitate criminals, bring peace, and unite cultures.

Traveling around the world, you meet people. Talking with these people, you get various feelings. They want help, and they are depending on people who know and can be effective.

Join the Church of Scientology today!

Oh and personally, I think that religion tends to mar the path of logic and the brain in general. If you are set on "choosing" a religion, the more open minded it is, the better, imo.
*TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
February 17 2009 03:27 GMT
#81
On February 17 2009 12:11 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 12:07 Chromyne wrote:
On February 17 2009 10:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
hey techniq get back in your own thread, faggot

edit: or is it more comfortable for you to go into other threads preaching your specific version of christianity rather than to recognize you are one of the greatest enemies of reason and logical thinking?


In response to your actual post, Techniq's post was justified in a sense that he was responding to the OP; it's less 'preachy' when you're responding than when it's unwanted.

Techniq's post is what he believes to be true, and truth in itself is offensive. For example:

1 + 1 = 2 (Let's just assume this to be a fact). This may offend some people who think otherwise, but it won't change the fact that 1 + 1 = 2. If one person thinks the sum is 3, and another, 1, it doesn't mean that there is no correct answer.

This analogy doesn't equate perfectly but this is similar to religious pluralism. Assuming some sort of supernatural being, if there are multiple religions making different claims about the same topic (afterlife, gods, etc.) then not all can be correct.


hey look i made an extremely similar point in the other thread

Show nested quote +
On February 16 2009 10:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
also the fact that you're claiming that all atheists love sin is simply ridiculous. "god is not real" is not a justification of sin, it's one of the possible explanations of all the contradictions within support for god. ptolemy tried to slightly modify aristotlean physics to make it still work, but copernicus/newton/galileo threw them out and got the right answer.

aristotle = bible
ptolemy = each denomination of christianity (or even judaism and islam)
copernicus/newton/galileo = agnosticism/atheism

ptolemy could've been right, but he wasnt

each denomination of christianity could be right since they're all tweaks of the same basic concept, and i'm not saying that all of them HAVE to be wrong, but if one of them is right, then the others have to be wrong, and adhering to one is like playing the lottery

not a very good chance


to further explicate this analogy, aristotle claimed that earth was at the center of the universe, and the stars were all on a spherical shell rotating around the earth. observations of the night sky matched this for the most part, except for the problem of "the wanderers" (which were actually the planets), objects that sometimes traveled with the stars, sometimes went backwards or at different speeds. aristotle ignored this contradiction completely.

ptolemy attempted to fix this problem by adding the idea of epicycles, little circles that the planets made while traveling with the overall sphere of the stars. this matched rudimentary observations, but as precision got better, the observations kept getting tweaked. in fact, he moved earth slightly off the center of the universe at one point, which was really revolutionary at the time, and i can really respect hiim for this. just because he was wrong doesn't mean he was an enemy of reason. the difference between ptolemy and people like techniq.uk is that ptolemy was flexible.

fast forward a thousand years+, copernicus decides to try to fix these inconsistencies by putting the sun at the center of the universe, the earth revolving around the sun, and the planets also doing so. his papers were published posthumously, because science's best friend, the catholic church, would've totally excommunicated and killed him if he challenged aristotlean physics outright (a prime example of dogma being an enemy of reason). however, once the ideas were out, they were out, and they helped lead to the development of things like kepler's laws and newtonian physics.


Sorry, I didn't read the other threads, so I'm not quite clear on the history of this discussion.

I don't quite understand the conclusion of your post. I can see the illustration of the stubborn and sometimes dogmatic nature of the church and the evolution of science to new discoveries.

Are you saying that the Bible is flawed, that Christianity and its denominations attempt to 'band-aid' or 'tweak' the claims of the Bible, and that Science eventually trumps the former by revealing the underlying flaws and presenting the empirical truth?
Soli Deo gloria.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 17 2009 03:41 GMT
#82
are you seeking spirituality or are you just looking to be part of something?

the first comes from inside yourself. you have to ask the questions yourself and look for the answers yourself. otherwise you're just another parrot. and there are already way too many parrots.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 05:37:57
February 17 2009 03:42 GMT
#83
On February 17 2009 12:27 Chromyne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 12:11 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 12:07 Chromyne wrote:
On February 17 2009 10:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
hey techniq get back in your own thread, faggot

edit: or is it more comfortable for you to go into other threads preaching your specific version of christianity rather than to recognize you are one of the greatest enemies of reason and logical thinking?


In response to your actual post, Techniq's post was justified in a sense that he was responding to the OP; it's less 'preachy' when you're responding than when it's unwanted.

Techniq's post is what he believes to be true, and truth in itself is offensive. For example:

1 + 1 = 2 (Let's just assume this to be a fact). This may offend some people who think otherwise, but it won't change the fact that 1 + 1 = 2. If one person thinks the sum is 3, and another, 1, it doesn't mean that there is no correct answer.

This analogy doesn't equate perfectly but this is similar to religious pluralism. Assuming some sort of supernatural being, if there are multiple religions making different claims about the same topic (afterlife, gods, etc.) then not all can be correct.


hey look i made an extremely similar point in the other thread

On February 16 2009 10:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
also the fact that you're claiming that all atheists love sin is simply ridiculous. "god is not real" is not a justification of sin, it's one of the possible explanations of all the contradictions within support for god. ptolemy tried to slightly modify aristotlean physics to make it still work, but copernicus/newton/galileo threw them out and got the right answer.

aristotle = bible
ptolemy = each denomination of christianity (or even judaism and islam)
copernicus/newton/galileo = agnosticism/atheism

ptolemy could've been right, but he wasnt

each denomination of christianity could be right since they're all tweaks of the same basic concept, and i'm not saying that all of them HAVE to be wrong, but if one of them is right, then the others have to be wrong, and adhering to one is like playing the lottery

not a very good chance


to further explicate this analogy, aristotle claimed that earth was at the center of the universe, and the stars were all on a spherical shell rotating around the earth. observations of the night sky matched this for the most part, except for the problem of "the wanderers" (which were actually the planets), objects that sometimes traveled with the stars, sometimes went backwards or at different speeds. aristotle ignored this contradiction completely.

ptolemy attempted to fix this problem by adding the idea of epicycles, little circles that the planets made while traveling with the overall sphere of the stars. this matched rudimentary observations, but as precision got better, the observations kept getting tweaked. in fact, he moved earth slightly off the center of the universe at one point, which was really revolutionary at the time, and i can really respect hiim for this. just because he was wrong doesn't mean he was an enemy of reason. the difference between ptolemy and people like techniq.uk is that ptolemy was flexible.

fast forward a thousand years+, copernicus decides to try to fix these inconsistencies by putting the sun at the center of the universe, the earth revolving around the sun, and the planets also doing so. his papers were published posthumously, because science's best friend, the catholic church, would've totally excommunicated and killed him if he challenged aristotlean physics outright (a prime example of dogma being an enemy of reason). however, once the ideas were out, they were out, and they helped lead to the development of things like kepler's laws and newtonian physics.


Sorry, I didn't read the other threads, so I'm not quite clear on the history of this discussion.

I don't quite understand the conclusion of your post. I can see the illustration of the stubborn and sometimes dogmatic nature of the church and the evolution of science to new discoveries.

Are you saying that the Bible is flawed, that Christianity and its denominations attempt to 'band-aid' or 'tweak' the claims of the Bible, and that Science eventually trumps the former by revealing the underlying flaws and presenting the empirical truth?

i'm saying that the existence of the universe (:: the observation of the night sky) is definitely possibly explained by overarching christianity and the bible (::aristotle), and the many denominations of christianity that often try to explain the bible's inconsistencies with the observation of the actual universe (:: ptolemy). there could have been a thousand ptolemys, all trying to fit aristotle's general view of the spherical geocentric universe with physical observations, just as there are so many denominations of christianity offering different interpretations of the same bible and the same universe. however, agnosticism and atheism represent an alternate theory completely (::copernicus) on why the universe exists, and how it works. each have their moral corollaries, but from a scientific standpoint, the strength as a theory is more important than the moral corollaries.

now even though ptolemy was wrong in my analogy, i'm not saying christianity or any of it's denominations are wrong. many of them are valid explanations, and some are (from a scientific standpoint) better than others, as they fit with more evidence (we're pretty sure earth wasn't created in 4004 BC). however, christians like techniq.uk who reject atheism and agnosticism entirely are just like the catholic church who defended aristotle to the bitter end. aristotle could've been right, but even if he was, persecuting and rejecting everybody who offered an alternate view didn't help anybody.

edit: the real problem with christianity from a reason/science/logic standpoint is that it's not falsifiable. it does make predictions, and it does have evidence, but there can be no direct evidence on whether a god exists, without his direct appearance. many christians cite jesus and his miracles and fulfilled prophecies, but there's a reason they're all disputed.

EDIT2: important note:

to the OP, everything i've said is how i view the meaning of life.

you could search for a meaning provided by a religion, either your own salvation in some form or another, or general goodwill towards humanity, etc.

i look at it this way:

i was put here on this universe, and it doesn't matter if it was by a creator/god or by mere chance. there are so many things yet unexplained about the universe, and i could do one of two things with my existence towards the end of productivity: i could attempt to improve the lives of others born into this same strange universe, or i could attempt to understand the inherent nature of the universe and all its mysteries, mathematical or otherwise. i first tried to go after the big daddy, the origin of the universe and life, but as i delved deeper and deeper, it looked more and more impossible. however, i can still go one step at a time, and advance what so many people have worked towards already: modern physics. my personal meaning in life is to understand the universe from a an objective a standpoint as possible, because i feel it is the most grand thing i could do with this opportunity of life i have been given. most religions would take that away from me, inserting deus ex machinas, literally, to explain what i'm so desperately seeking to discover for myself, and trying to give me other purposes in life. i choose to ignore these things and seek my own purpose for myself.

i have had the internal dilemma of meaning several times in my life. by my own view of atheist-leaning agnosticism, death is quite the ultimatum: past death, i won't have the consciousness to know that i ever even existed. this creates the burden of "how do i apply value to my own life?" i could enjoy the life i was given, make as much money as i can, make it as comfortable as possible, but the reality remains that after death, it would mean absolutely nothing. this was such a scary thought, that i've often had thoughts along the lines of, "i wish christianity was right so i could go to hell and still remember that I ever existed." eventually i settled on the fact that, the only way of possibly attaching a meaning to my own life by this regard is learning for myself the reason why i was put here. that's where the above paragraph comes in.

IN CONCLUSION, GO INTO THEORETICAL PHYSICS YEAAAAAAAH
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 17 2009 03:57 GMT
#84
imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 17 2009 03:59 GMT
#85
On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote:
imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen.

sure it does

it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation.
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Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 04:11:38
February 17 2009 04:07 GMT
#86
Okay, I understand where you are coming from now. I think that your issue with Christianity is also the nature of Christianity. If it were falsifiable, then there would never be any doubt and everyone would either accept it or reject it (to choose a path contrary to evidence would seem foolish). Please don't take this explanation as a sort of hand waving excuse, but I do believe there is a purpose to this fact, at least with respect to Christianity. The belief in free will to believe means that people should have choice as opposed to something that is undeniable.

With respect to different denominations of Christianity (Catholicism, Protestantism, etc.) I believe that because of their similar core beliefs (on Jesus Christ, Salvation, God, etc.), they are in essence, the same. The fact that they have diverging views on somewhat minor points shouldn't detract from this. This is why I think that believing in one is not a lottery, as in this case, they lead to the same end. With respect to other religions entirely, like Atheism or Islam, there becomes a clear distinction in beliefs, and you cannot say they lead to a similar end.

However, I do agree that a classical sense of tolerance is important, where not all view are valid, but where all views are respected and even investigated for validity.

Soli Deo gloria.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 04:12:20
February 17 2009 04:11 GMT
#87
On February 17 2009 13:07 Chromyne wrote:
Okay, I understand where you are coming from now. I think that your issue with Christianity is also the nature of Christianity. If it were falsifiable, then there would never be any doubt and everyone would either accept it or reject it (to choose a path contrary to evidence would seem foolish). Please don't take this explanation as a sort of hand waving excuse, but I do believe there is a purpose to this fact, at least with respect to Christianity. The belief in free will to believe means that people should have choice as opposed to something that is undeniable.

With respect to different denominations of Christianity (Catholicism, Protestantism, etc.) I believe that because of their similar core beliefs (on Jesus Christ, Salvation, God, etc.), they are in essence, the same. The fact that they have diverging points on somewhat minor points shouldn't detract from this. This is why I think that believing in one is not a lottery, as in this case, they lead to the same end. With respect to other religions entirely, like Atheism or Islam, there becomes a clear distinction in beliefs, and you cannot say they lead to a similar end.


and the fact that these different ends exist is so bothersome to me. the fact that within different demographics, there are different rates of christianity proves that luck would play a major part in salvation if christianity was correct, because your chance of salvation would be influenced by where you were born, and under what circumstances. to me, this is too unfair to be correct, but it may as well be correct. i can't know. it's really irrelevant to me, because i'd be willing to go to hell as a martyr if this were correct, and if it isn't, it isn't.
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Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 17 2009 04:13 GMT
#88
On February 17 2009 12:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote:
imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen.

sure it does

it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation.


ok and so my salvation comes from believing that this event really happened? if jesus already saved me then why do I have to believe it? and if I have to believe in then in what way did he save me.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 17 2009 04:14 GMT
#89
On February 17 2009 13:13 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 12:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote:
imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen.

sure it does

it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation.


ok and so my salvation comes from believing that this event really happened? if jesus already saved me then why do I have to believe it? and if I have to believe in then in what way did he save me.

because in (many forms of) christianity, salvation is gained by still personally having a relationship with god. you can't reap the benefits of something you don't acknowledge and appreciate.

your last sentence makes no grammatical sense.
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Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
February 17 2009 04:16 GMT
#90
I agree somewhat. It would seem unfair for people who die without at least hearing anything about Christianity. But I also believe that Christianity transcends organized religion. After all, it did not begin as such, and I don't believe it is necessary. I'm sure an omnipotent God has ways of reaching people without things like missionaries or churches.

But again, this really isn't a solution to your problem, because I really don't have a concrete answer for you.
Soli Deo gloria.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 17 2009 04:19 GMT
#91
On February 17 2009 13:16 Chromyne wrote:
I agree somewhat. It would seem unfair for people who die without at least hearing anything about Christianity. But I also believe that Christianity transcends organized religion. After all, it did not begin as such, and I don't believe it is necessary. I'm sure an omnipotent God has ways of reaching people without things like missionaries or churches.

But again, this really isn't a solution to your problem, because I really don't have a concrete answer for you.

you're a likable person :3

do you see the difference between yourself and techniq? if so, then i think you get my point.
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Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
February 17 2009 04:27 GMT
#92
On February 17 2009 13:19 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 13:16 Chromyne wrote:
I agree somewhat. It would seem unfair for people who die without at least hearing anything about Christianity. But I also believe that Christianity transcends organized religion. After all, it did not begin as such, and I don't believe it is necessary. I'm sure an omnipotent God has ways of reaching people without things like missionaries or churches.

But again, this really isn't a solution to your problem, because I really don't have a concrete answer for you.

you're a likable person :3

do you see the difference between yourself and techniq? if so, then i think you get my point.


<3 you're not a bad ol' chap yourself.

+ Show Spoiler +
This is our secret plan to win the hearts of everyone, then take over the world!


I see what you mean. Discussing such topics, especially over the internet, requires a significant amount of tact =/
Soli Deo gloria.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 04:30:20
February 17 2009 04:29 GMT
#93
yeah, and my big old agnosticism hammer may be a bit too threatening for the likes of techniq.uk and mada_jiang? i dont know, i just get the impression they're definitively unreasonable (as in impossible to reason with), which is why i burden myself with the task of providing counterarguments to the beliefs they present as fact.
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TechniQ.UK
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United Kingdom391 Posts
February 17 2009 04:58 GMT
#94
I can reason completely fine but when your talking to me about predestination and such then how can i use science in that, I must argue from a biblical perspective.

-

As for your mistranslation of virgin and all of that, yeah...ok idra's right and the greek and hebrew scholars over the last couple of hundred years are wrong and the context of the whole chapter and bible i may mention is wrong.

It's translated virgin and in the same chapter where virgin is mentioned in the gospels it also speaks about the child coming from the Holy Ghost therefore virgin is correct in these contexts and it's not some random mistranslation error that created the doctrine of virgin birth.

18Now the birth of(A) Jesus Christ[a] took place in this way.(B) When his mother Mary had been betrothed[b] to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child(C) from the Holy Spirit.

and.....

34And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?"[a]

35And the angel answered her,(H) "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of(I) the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born[b] will be called(J) holy—(K) the Son of God.




-

As for you tuna, at the end of the day heres where i'm coming from:

No one can disprove God, scientists say the big bang came from nowhere does that seem logical? no. Some of the greatest scientists in history even darwin are agnostics and often in quotes lean toward God being real because of the complexity of things.

Ok so from that standing point, i conclude because of morals etc.. there is a God.
The God of the bible is correct because it's prophecies not only about Jesus but about israels history, roman/grecian/persian empire's history before it happened in Daniel, prophecies forfilled over the last few hundred years like israel becoming a nation, have been forfilled and there is no other book like it that does it so accurately nor in so many cases.

As for the claim Jesus didn't for fill some promises, those 5 you listed. I went through them and quite a number of them actually we're for filled, e.g. the Jews coming from 4 corners was about the gospel going everywhere and the Jews in other nations being converted under one banner along with gentiles. and i think i listed 2 of them that are linked to the book of revelation prophecy so they will be for filled by Jesus.



Fan of: Acer.Scarlett and Liquid'NonY //
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 05:24:08
February 17 2009 05:03 GMT
#95
On February 17 2009 13:58 TechniQ.UK wrote:
As for you tuna, at the end of the day heres where i'm coming from:

No one can disprove God, scientists say the big bang came from nowhere does that seem logical? no. Some of the greatest scientists in history even darwin are agnostics and often in quotes lean toward God being real because of the complexity of things.


don't pretend to know what modern physicists truly think about the big bang

i don't pretend to know the details of scripture, don't put words in scientists' mouths

95% of educated modern physicists will admit that the origin of the big bang is a mystery, not that it popped out of nowhere. several theories offer an explanation, such as loop quantum gravity, which avoids the singularity problem with a big bounce.

didn't understand any of that? good, don't try to use the big bang against science.

and i think you'll have a trouble swallowing this bit but, GOD IS NOT THE DEFAULT EXPLANATION OF ALL MYSTERIES IN SCIENCE. finally, i myself admitted the existence of god is unfalsifiable. in science, this is a bad thing, not a good thing, and certainly does not prove his existence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

as for the complexity argument, there's some literature on that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Response_of_the_scientific_community
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Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 17 2009 05:09 GMT
#96
On February 17 2009 13:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 13:13 travis wrote:
On February 17 2009 12:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote:
imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen.

sure it does

it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation.


ok and so my salvation comes from believing that this event really happened? if jesus already saved me then why do I have to believe it? and if I have to believe in then in what way did he save me.

because in (many forms of) christianity, salvation is gained by still personally having a relationship with god. you can't reap the benefits of something you don't acknowledge and appreciate.


except that has absolutely nothing to do with "christ"


your last sentence makes no grammatical sense.


that is because i typed "in" instead of "it"
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 17 2009 05:10 GMT
#97
On February 17 2009 13:13 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 12:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote:
imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen.

sure it does

it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation.


ok and so my salvation comes from believing that this event really happened? if jesus already saved me then why do I have to believe it? and if I have to believe in then in what way did he save me.

Just because you know that there's medicine for a disease you have doesn't mean you're healed... you still have to TAKE it
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 05:12:51
February 17 2009 05:11 GMT
#98
On February 17 2009 14:09 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 13:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 13:13 travis wrote:
On February 17 2009 12:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote:
imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen.

sure it does

it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation.


ok and so my salvation comes from believing that this event really happened? if jesus already saved me then why do I have to believe it? and if I have to believe in then in what way did he save me.

because in (many forms of) christianity, salvation is gained by still personally having a relationship with god. you can't reap the benefits of something you don't acknowledge and appreciate.


except that has absolutely nothing to do with "christ"

Show nested quote +

your last sentence makes no grammatical sense.


that is because i typed "in" instead of "it"

god is christ, same guy. father, son, holy ghost.

he saved you because prior to that, there was no way to absolve yourself of your sins, so only true saints who did not sin would avoid hell. after jesus, the procedure became to cleanse yourself of sin via his forgiveness, which he bestowed upon the earth through jesus, his temporary human form.
posting on liquid sites in current year
ulszz
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
Jamaica1787 Posts
February 17 2009 05:39 GMT
#99
On February 16 2009 10:35 fight_or_flight wrote:
Well you are on the right track. You will never find the truth if you don't look for it. My suggestion is to find some like minded people who are doing the same thing you are. This website may not be the best place because its primary focus is not that subject.

Second, you should not let yourself get trapped in any specific interlocking belief system. If it takes away your individuality or hampers critical thinking, avoid it.

You need to come up with a way to sort the truth from what is not true. The scientific method is used in science, but as you pointed out, it is limited to concrete experiments. Here is another method you can use

+ Show Spoiler +
Truth Analysis

The process is based on two axioms:

1. truth is not subjective
2. truth never contradicts itself

Because truth is not subjective, some ideas are more objective than others. This means that no matter what your worldview is, it can always be improved to be more objective. It shows that there is indeed something to strive for.

The idea that truth never contradicts itself is a very powerful axiom. Lies can be internally consistent as well, but a mixture of truth and lies will show contradictions. You can use this principle to discover what’s true and what’s false. Here’s what I mean:

It is difficult to tell if any single idea is true or false, just like it is difficult to tell which of two similar puzzles a single puzzle piece belongs to. But a large collection of non-contradicting ideas will reveal whether the entire collection is true or false. The larger the collection, the easier it is to see. You start with one ambiguous puzzle piece, find others that fit onto it, and soon you can tell which of the two puzzles you’ve put together.

Another analogy is panning for gold. You start with a large amount of material that includes both silt and gold flakes, then you shake the pan and let the silt fall away. This indicates the importance of continually thinking, reading, and discussing large amounts of new material, which is then to be sorted or filtered via intuition and critical thinking to reveal what is true.

It is better to look for what’s wrong with a theory than what’s right. Debates can rage forever concerning the thousand facts supporting a single lie, but no one can argue with a single fact that disproves a thousand lies.

Remember, as long as your worldview is internally consistent, it is most likely entirely true or entirely false. Combine this principle with the five-step process below, and you will have an effective truth analysis method. The process of discovering truth is one of cycling between gathering material, formulating theories, working out inconsistencies, and gathering more material.

Most importantly, truth is always verified by both logic and intuition—logic without intuition, or intuition without logic should never be used to determine truth. They must be used in tandem. If there is conflict between logic and intuition, check your logical assumptions. Use intuition to guide and logic to analyze.

The process goes like this:

1) Gather new ideas from contemplation, observation, discussion, or some reading material. Then pick a mystery, a contradiction, a set of observations or anything that needs to be explained or resolved.

2) To make a good theory that will explain all of that, start with the infinite set of all possibilities. This means anything goes, no idea is too ludicrous. Use your intuition and guess.

3) As ideas come to mind, use critical thinking to eliminate everything that is self contradictory or absolutely impossible. Look for holes in these ideas, try to shoot them down.

4) Of the bulletproof theories that are left, select the theory that:

* explains all the facts
* explains the facts better than any other theory
* explains facts that previous theories could not
* is logically consistent and has no internal contradictions
* makes sense
* feels intuitively correct

5) The theory is worth keeping if:

* it predicts things which are later confirmed by observation
* you find correlation from other independent sources

6) If you come across something that challenges the theory, then:

* check to see that it’s really a challenge, and not just an illusory paradox based on assumptions or incorrect perspective
* check to see if the challenge is even valid, or if it is internally inconsistent and full of holes
* modify the theory to accomodate the challenge
* come up with a whole new theory that explains everything more elegantly than the old one

This is opposite the process used in science and mathematics that starts with axioms and builds upon them. The problem with that method is that it starts with a very limited finite set and creeps upward like a stalagmite. If the assumptions or axioms are false, then everything built on it is in error. Furthermore, such a process cannot skip steps, as it always needs verification from the status quo to proceed to the next step. It cannot take leaps of faith or logic, and therefore cannot make paradigm shifts. It’s an inflexible process that definitely has its advantages when it comes to high risk applications that need lots of security and assuredness, but as far as breaking new ground is concerned, it’s incredibly slow. Any creativity in that process happens only in the formation of the basic axioms, or in accidents that occur along the way.

The process described in this article starts with an infinite set, and whittles away what doesn’t fit. This means there is no need to leap across a logical abyss because one approaches from the other side. It is much easier to build a bridge if someone is already on the other side. Likewise, once a radical idea has been confirmed using this process, it is much easier to work backwards and logically bridge the abyss. Also, the fitting together of ideas and sorting of truth from lies requires creativity at every step, so it’s the best method of achieving rapid innovation.


For a long time, perhaps, you have been thinking in a single paradigm. There are more ways to see the word than just from the materialist point of view.

+ Show Spoiler +
Paradigm Shifts and Aeonics
by Peter Carroll

All the philosophies, creeds, dogmas and beliefs that humanity has evolved are variants of three great paradigms, the Transcendental, the Materialist and the Magical. In no human culture has any one of these paradigms been completely distinct from the others. For example in our own culture at the time of writing the Transcendental and Magical paradigms are frequently confused together.

Transcendental philosophies are basically religious and manifest in a spectrum stretching from the fringes of primitive spiritism through pagan polytheism to the monotheism of the Judaeo-Christian- Islamic traditions and the theoretical non-theistic systems of Buddhism and Taoism. In each case it is believed that some form of consciousness or spirit created and maintains the universe and that humans, other living organisms, contain some fragment of this consciousness or spirit which underlies the veil or illusion of matter. The essence of Transcendentalism is belief in spiritual beings greater than oneself or states of spiritual being superior to that which currently one enjoys. Earthly life is frequently seen merely as a form of dialoque between oneself and one's deity or deities, or perhaps some impersonal form of higher force. The material world is a theatre for the spirit or soul or consciousness that created it. Spirit is the ultimate reality to the transcendentalist.

In the Materialist paradigm the universe is believed to consist fundamentally and entirely of matter. Energy is but a form of matter and together they subtend space and time within which all change occurs strictly on the basis of cause and effect. Human behaviour is reducible to biology, biology is reducible to chemistry, chemistry is reducible to physics and physics is reducible to mathematics. Mind and consciousness are thus merely electrochemical events in the brain and spirit is a word without objective content. The causes of some events are likely to remain obscure perhaps indefinitely, but there is an underlying faith that sufficient material cause must exist for any event. All human acts can be categorized as serving some biological need or as expressions of previously applied conditioning or merely as malfunction. The goal of materialist who eschews suicide is the pursuit of personal satisfaction including altruistic satisfactions if desired.

The main difficulty in recognizing and describing the pure Magical Paradigm is that of insufficient vocabulary. Magical philosophy is only recently recovering from a heavy adulteration with transcendental theory. The word aether will be used to describe the fundamental reality of the magical paradigm. It is more or less equivalent to the idea of Mana used in oceanic shamanism. Aether in materialistic descriptions is information which structures matter and which all matter is capable of emitting and receiving. In transcendental terms aether is a sort of 'life force' present in some degree in all things. It carries both knowledge about events and the ability to influence similar or sympathetic events. Events either arise sponataneously out of themselves or are encouraged to follow certain paths by influence of patterns in the aether. As all things have an aetheric part they can be considered to be alive in some sense. Thus all things happen by magic, the large scale features of the universe have a very strong aetheric pattern which makes them fairly predictable but difficult to influence by the aetheric patterns created by thought. Magicians see themselves as participating in nature. Transcendentalists like to think they are somehow above it. Materialists like to try and manipulate it.

Now this universe has the peculiarly accomodating property of tending to provide evidence for, and confirmation of, whatever paradigm one chooses to believe in. Presumably at some deep level there is a hidden symmetry between those things we call Matter, Aether and Spirit. Indeed, it is rare to find an individual or culture operating exclusively on a single one of these paradigms and none is ever entirely absent. Non-dominant paradigms are always present as superstitions and fears. A subsequent section on Aeonics will attempt to untangle the influences of each of these great world views throughout history, to see how they have interacted with each other and to predict future trends. In the meantime an analysis of the radically differing concepts of time and self in each paradigm is offered to more fully distinguish the basic ideas.

Transcendentalists conceive of time in millennial and apocalyptic terms. Time is regareded as having a definite beginning and ending, both initiated by the activities of spiritual beings or forces. The end of time on the personal and cosmic scale is regarded not so much as a cessation of being but as a change to a state of non-material being. The beginning of personal and cosmic time is similarly regarded as a creative act by spiritual agencies. Thus reproductive activity usually becomes heavily controlled and hedged about with taboo and restriction in religious cultures, as it implies an usurpation of the powers of deities. Reproduction also implies that death has in some measure been overcome. How awesome the power of creation and how final must earthly death subconsciously loom to a celibate and sterile priesthood.

All transcendentalisms embody elements of apocalyptism. Typically these are used to provoke revivals when business is slack or attention is drifting elsewhere. Thus it is suddenly revealed that the final days are at hand or that some earthly dispute is in fact a titanic battle against evil spiritual agencies.

Materialist time is linear but unbounded. Ideally it can be extended arbitrarily far in either direction from the present. To the strict materialist it is self-evidently futile to speculate about a beginning or an end to time. Similarly the materialist is contemptuous of any speculations about any forms of personal existence before birth or after death. The materialist may well fear painful or premature death but can have no fears about being dead.

The magical view is that time is cyclic and that all processes recur. Even cycles which appear to begin or end are actually parts of larger cycles. Thus all endings are beginnings and the end of time is synonymous with the beginning of time in another universe. The magical view that everything is recycled is reflected in the doctrine of reincarnation. The attractive idea of reincarnation has often persisted into the religious paradigm and many pagan and even some monotheist traditions have retained it. However religious theories invariably contaminate the original idea with beliefs about a personal soul. From a strictly magical viewpoint we are an accretion rather than an unfolded unity. The psyche has no particular centre, we are colonial beings, a rich collage of many selves. Thus as our bodies contain fragments from countless former beings, so does our psyche. However certain magical traditions retain techniques which allow the adept to transfer quite large amounts of his psyche in one piece should he consider this more useful than dispersing himself into humanity at large.

Each of the paradigms take a different view of the self. Transcendentalists view self as spirit inserted into matter. As a fragment or figment of deity the self regards itself as somehow placed in the world in a non-arbitrary manner and endowed with free will. The transcendental view of self is relatively stable and non-problematic if shared as a consensus with all significant others. However, transcendental theories about the placement and purpose of self and its relationship to deities are mutually exclusive. Conflicting transcendentalisms can rarely co-exist for they threaten to disconform the images of self. Encounters which are not decisive tend to be mutually negatory in the long run.

Of the three views of self the purely materialistic one is the most problematical. If mind is an extension of matter it must obey material laws and the resulting deterministic view conflicts with the subjective experience of free will. On the other hand if mind and consciousness are assumed to be qualitatively different from matter then the self is incomprehensible to itself in material terms. Worse still perhaps, the materialist self must regard itself as a phenomenon of only temporary duration in contradiction of the subjective expectation of continuity of consciousness. Because a purely materialist view of self is so austere few are prepared to confront such naked existentialism. Consequently materialist cultures exhibit a frantic appetite for sensation, identification and more or less disposable irrational beliefs. Anything that will make the self seem less insubstantial.

The magical view of self is that it is based on the same random capricious chaos which makes the universe exist and do what it does. The magical self has no centre, it is not a unity but an assemblage of parts, any number of which may temorarily club together and call themselves 'I'. This accords with the observation that our subjective experience consists of our various selves experiencing each other. Free will arises either as an outcome of a dispute between our various selves or as a sudden random creation of a new idea or option. In the magical view of self there is no spirit/matter or mind/body split and the paradoxes of free will and determinism disappear. Some of our acts arise from random choices between conditioned options and some from conditional choices between randomly created options. In practice most of our acts are based on rather complex hierarchical sequences of all four of these mechanisms. As soon as we have acted one of our selves proclaims 'I did that!' so loudly that most of the other selves think they did it too.

Each of the three views of self has something derogatory to say about the other two. From the standpoint of the transcendental self the materialist self has become prey to pride of intellect, the demon hubris, whilst the magical view of self is considered to be entirely demonic. The material self views the transcendentalist as obsessed with assumptions having no basis in fact, and the magical self as being childlike and incoherent. From the standpoint of the magical view, the assorted selves of the transcendendatilst have ascribed a grossly exaggerated importance to one or a few of the selves which they call God or gods, whilst the materialist has attempted to make all his selves subordinate to the self that does the rational thinking. Ultimately it's a matter of faith and taste. The transcedentalist has faith in his god self, the materialist has faith in his reasoning self and the selves of the magician have faith in each other. Naturally, all these forms of faith are subject to periods of doubt.


Anyways, why do you say your beliefs are constantly obliterated? I understand what you mean by that, but still I'd be interested if you could give some examples.


wow the Paradigm Shifts and Aeonics was fun to read! got more stuff like that?
everliving, everfaithful, eversure
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 06:10:57
February 17 2009 06:08 GMT
#100
On February 17 2009 14:11 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 14:09 travis wrote:
On February 17 2009 13:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 13:13 travis wrote:
On February 17 2009 12:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote:
imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen.

sure it does

it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation.


ok and so my salvation comes from believing that this event really happened? if jesus already saved me then why do I have to believe it? and if I have to believe in then in what way did he save me.

because in (many forms of) christianity, salvation is gained by still personally having a relationship with god. you can't reap the benefits of something you don't acknowledge and appreciate.


except that has absolutely nothing to do with "christ"


your last sentence makes no grammatical sense.


that is because i typed "in" instead of "it"

god is christ, same guy. father, son, holy ghost.

i know this


he saved you because prior to that, there was no way to absolve yourself of your sins, so only true saints who did not sin would avoid hell.

you just contradicted yourself. first you say there is no way to absolve yourself of your sins, then you immediately say "true saints" could do it. aren't "true saints" people?


after jesus, the procedure became to cleanse yourself of sin via his forgiveness, which he bestowed upon the earth through jesus, his temporary human form.


Why do we have to do anything if he already forgave us? Can we not just forgive our selves?
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 17 2009 06:10 GMT
#101
if jesus is so literally god then why is belief in jesus necessary and not just belief in god ?
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 06:13:11
February 17 2009 06:10 GMT
#102
On February 17 2009 15:08 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +

he saved you because prior to that, there was no way to absolve yourself of your sins, so only true saints who did not sin would avoid hell.

you just contradicted yourself. first you say there is no way to absolve yourself, then you immediately say "true saints" could do it. aren't "true saints" people?

Show nested quote +

after jesus, the procedure became to cleanse yourself of sin via his forgiveness, which he bestowed upon the earth through jesus, his temporary human form.


Why do we have to do anything if he already forgave us? Can we not just forgive our selves?

absolution is the removal/forgiveness of sin

saints are people who never sinned ever, so they don't require absolution

everybody else was screwed though

and it takes holy forgiveness to cleanse the soul of sin, and only a clean/absolved soul may enter heaven. patting yourself on the back and forgiving yourself does nothing for the soul.
posting on liquid sites in current year
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 17 2009 06:11 GMT
#103
On February 17 2009 15:10 travis wrote:
if jesus is so literally god then why is belief in jesus necessary and not just belief in god ?

you need to acknowledge that god came down in a human form and saved you
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 17 2009 06:17 GMT
#104
On February 17 2009 15:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 15:08 travis wrote:

he saved you because prior to that, there was no way to absolve yourself of your sins, so only true saints who did not sin would avoid hell.

you just contradicted yourself. first you say there is no way to absolve yourself, then you immediately say "true saints" could do it. aren't "true saints" people?


after jesus, the procedure became to cleanse yourself of sin via his forgiveness, which he bestowed upon the earth through jesus, his temporary human form.


Why do we have to do anything if he already forgave us? Can we not just forgive our selves?

absolution is the removal of sin

saints are people who never sinned ever, so they don't require absolution

everybody else was screwed though

ok so you agree that you contradicted yourself?


and it takes holy forgiveness to cleanse the soul of sin, and only a clean/absolved soul may enter heaven


ok so us putting faith into jesus' forgiveness somehow causes holy forgiveness? but without the faith the holy forgiveness does not happen?
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 06:21:51
February 17 2009 06:20 GMT
#105
On February 17 2009 15:11 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 15:10 travis wrote:
if jesus is so literally god then why is belief in jesus necessary and not just belief in god ?

you need to acknowledge that god came down in a human form and saved you


so I need to acknowledge something that I didn't witness? why should I do that, as an attemptedly rational and freethinking man?
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 06:24:10
February 17 2009 06:20 GMT
#106
On February 17 2009 15:17 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 15:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:08 travis wrote:

he saved you because prior to that, there was no way to absolve yourself of your sins, so only true saints who did not sin would avoid hell.

you just contradicted yourself. first you say there is no way to absolve yourself, then you immediately say "true saints" could do it. aren't "true saints" people?


after jesus, the procedure became to cleanse yourself of sin via his forgiveness, which he bestowed upon the earth through jesus, his temporary human form.


Why do we have to do anything if he already forgave us? Can we not just forgive our selves?

absolution is the removal of sin

saints are people who never sinned ever, so they don't require absolution

everybody else was screwed though

ok so you agree that you contradicted yourself?

no, i didnt. before jesus, the only people who made it into heaven were people who didn't sin at all (saints).

jesus introduced the concept of absolution and forgiveness, which made it possible for sinners to
be forgiven and get into heaven by purifying their impure souls. where's the contradiction?

Show nested quote +

and it takes holy forgiveness to cleanse the soul of sin, and only a clean/absolved soul may enter heaven


ok so us putting faith into jesus' forgiveness somehow causes holy forgiveness? but without the faith the holy forgiveness does not happen?

well you have to ask for it personally too, via a personal relationship with god or often through a catholic priest. (who will then tell you via their relationship with god that god has forgiven you)
posting on liquid sites in current year
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 06:23:44
February 17 2009 06:21 GMT
#107
On February 17 2009 15:20 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 15:11 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:10 travis wrote:
if jesus is so literally god then why is belief in jesus necessary and not just belief in god ?

you need to acknowledge that god came down in a human form and saved you


so I need to acknowledge something that I didn't witness? intelligent christians actually think this is realistic?

yes, yes they do. in their defense though, many people do simply acknowledge alot of things you can't personally witness, such as the existence of black holes. to christians, the bible is as good evidence as astronomical observations are to physicists.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 17 2009 06:23 GMT
#108
--- Nuked ---
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 06:27:11
February 17 2009 06:24 GMT
#109
On February 17 2009 15:23 Mada_Jiang wrote:
For all those who are reading or contributing to this thread, I strongly encourage you to communicate with God him self and get your answers. If he is a loving father he wouldn't leave you in the dark. Rather than reading through how each individual think about religion, step away from that and ask God to reveal him self to you.

For those of you who are getting all worked up arguing with each other and treating each other like you would never do to each other in real life.... I have one suggestion:

Rather than debating over whether heat waves exists, put your self there and feel the heat it self. Once again my email is oni_jiang@hotmail.com. I wont tell you what I think, if you are interested, I will share with you my experiences with God.

I pray that peace will be with you. ^.^

you are stupid. i will not explicate further because you would simply disregard it. peace to you too though.

+ Show Spoiler +
heat waves are just extended periods of hot days, if you mean heat radiation, then i still don't care and you're still stupid
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 06:28:12
February 17 2009 06:26 GMT
#110
On February 17 2009 15:20 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 15:17 travis wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:08 travis wrote:

he saved you because prior to that, there was no way to absolve yourself of your sins, so only true saints who did not sin would avoid hell.

you just contradicted yourself. first you say there is no way to absolve yourself, then you immediately say "true saints" could do it. aren't "true saints" people?


after jesus, the procedure became to cleanse yourself of sin via his forgiveness, which he bestowed upon the earth through jesus, his temporary human form.


Why do we have to do anything if he already forgave us? Can we not just forgive our selves?

absolution is the removal of sin

saints are people who never sinned ever, so they don't require absolution

everybody else was screwed though

ok so you agree that you contradicted yourself?

no, i didnt. before jesus, the only people who made it into heaven were people who didn't sin at all (saints).


oh im very sorry I did misunderstand what you were saying

Show nested quote +

ok so us putting faith into jesus' forgiveness somehow causes holy forgiveness? but without the faith the holy forgiveness does not happen?

well you have to ask for it personally too, via a personal relationship with god or often through a catholic priest.


ok but so, all the muslims and jews and hindus etc who believe they have a personal relationship with god are wrong and will go to hell for a lack of faith in jesus? despite pious and virtuous lives?
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 06:37:46
February 17 2009 06:28 GMT
#111
On February 17 2009 15:26 travis wrote:
ok but so, all the muslims and jews and hindus etc who believe they have a personal relationship with god are wrong and will go to hell for a lack of faith in jesus? despite pious and virtuous lives?

yep. if they sin at all, and never ask jesus for forgiveness, they're screwed. that's the biggest problem i have with christianity. some of the more hardcore christians in this thread would claim that god attempts to reach out and teach these truths via dreams/revelations to all sinners, but that seems a little far-fetched to me.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 17 2009 06:31 GMT
#112
The biggest problem I have with it is that I have absolutely no good reason to believe it. I think that the message could be partially accurate but that it's a problem when it is taken too literally.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 17 2009 06:32 GMT
#113
On February 17 2009 15:31 travis wrote:
The biggest problem I have with it is that I have absolutely no good reason to believe it. I think that the message could be partially accurate but that it's a problem when it is taken too literally.

a christian would say you are a sinner in denial, and if you don't believe, you'll go to hell.

i say, yeah, it shouldn't really matter whether you believe it or not.
posting on liquid sites in current year
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 17 2009 06:39 GMT
#114
On February 17 2009 15:31 travis wrote:
The biggest problem I have with it is that I have absolutely no good reason to believe it. I think that the message could be partially accurate but that it's a problem when it is taken too literally.

This is true. Through reasoning there's a snowball's chance in hell of you believing that God exists. Rather than using your mind to understand everything, you'll need to experience it yourself. What you said in the second sentence is an example of using your mind to try and understand what the Bible teaches.

Some people grow up in the church life and it's a lot easier because they're open to God existing.

Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 06:44:52
February 17 2009 06:42 GMT
#115
On February 17 2009 15:39 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 15:31 travis wrote:
The biggest problem I have with it is that I have absolutely no good reason to believe it. I think that the message could be partially accurate but that it's a problem when it is taken too literally.

This is true. Through reasoning there's a snowball's chance in hell of you believing that God exists. Rather than using your mind to understand everything, you'll need to experience it yourself. What you said in the second sentence is an example of using your mind to try and understand what the Bible teaches.

Some people grow up in the church life and it's a lot easier because they're open to God existing.


reasoning is what lead him to believe that most flavors of christianity are unfair though

why would one even want to experience the reality of such an unfair religion?

+ Show Spoiler +
for reference, the flavors of christianity i consider the closest to fair are the ones where only good works and a pious life are required, not faith
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fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 06:46:12
February 17 2009 06:44 GMT
#116
But the OP does feel a need for something. And I don't necessarily think you should expect all the religions to line up for you and try to convince you. You shouldn't generalize what most Christians think as a way to dismiss Christianity.

Instead you should actively search out the things that you believe. Use the truth analysis method that I posted, because you have to believe in something, as long as you are conscious. And you have to examine the fundamental assumptions of what you believe.

+ Show Spoiler +
btw ulszz i'll get back to you


edit: and there really isn't a "default" belief or philosophy, you have to choose one
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SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 06:48:57
February 17 2009 06:47 GMT
#117
On February 17 2009 15:44 fight_or_flight wrote:
But the OP does feel a need for something. And I don't necessarily think you should expect all the religions to line up for you and try to convince you. You shouldn't generalize what most Christians think as a way to dismiss Christianity.

Instead you should actively search out the things that you believe. Use the truth analysis method that I posted, because you have to believe in something, as long as you are conscious. And you have to examine the fundamental assumptions of what you believe.

+ Show Spoiler +
btw ulszz i'll get back to you

it sounded to me like the OP always generally carried the materialistic mindset (materialism being the definition you posted in that second essay thingy), but feels that it's too pessimistic and doesn't give him enough hope to continue living and function, and thus is searching for an alternate, more optimistic mindset. so i think he's already realized that he used to be materialistic but now wants to be transcendental, and is searching for the flavor of transcendentalism that most suits him. i, being the agnostic faggot that i am, am attempting to convince him that materialism is the right choice and to not be so defeatist in its conclusions.
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BackHo
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
New Zealand400 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-11 08:13:07
February 17 2009 06:59 GMT
#118
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:01:42
February 17 2009 07:00 GMT
#119
On February 17 2009 15:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 15:39 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:31 travis wrote:
The biggest problem I have with it is that I have absolutely no good reason to believe it. I think that the message could be partially accurate but that it's a problem when it is taken too literally.

This is true. Through reasoning there's a snowball's chance in hell of you believing that God exists. Rather than using your mind to understand everything, you'll need to experience it yourself. What you said in the second sentence is an example of using your mind to try and understand what the Bible teaches.

Some people grow up in the church life and it's a lot easier because they're open to God existing.


reasoning is what lead him to believe that most flavors of christianity are unfair though

why would one even want to experience the reality of such an unfair religion?

+ Show Spoiler +
for reference, the flavors of christianity i consider the closest to fair are the ones where only good works and a pious life are required, not faith

Don't you remember that in the Bible there were two trees in the Garden of Eden? The Tree of Life, which is what God wants man to eat from, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Why is it that good and evil are on the same tree? Because God didn't simply intend for us to good and stray away from evil. God wanted us to partake of Him as life.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 17 2009 07:03 GMT
#120
On February 17 2009 16:00 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 15:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:39 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:31 travis wrote:
The biggest problem I have with it is that I have absolutely no good reason to believe it. I think that the message could be partially accurate but that it's a problem when it is taken too literally.

This is true. Through reasoning there's a snowball's chance in hell of you believing that God exists. Rather than using your mind to understand everything, you'll need to experience it yourself. What you said in the second sentence is an example of using your mind to try and understand what the Bible teaches.

Some people grow up in the church life and it's a lot easier because they're open to God existing.


reasoning is what lead him to believe that most flavors of christianity are unfair though

why would one even want to experience the reality of such an unfair religion?

+ Show Spoiler +
for reference, the flavors of christianity i consider the closest to fair are the ones where only good works and a pious life are required, not faith

Don't you remember that in the Bible there were two trees in the Garden of Eden? The Tree of Life, which is what God wants man to eat from, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Why is it that good and evil are on the same tree? Because God didn't simply intend for us to good and stray away from evil. God wanted us to partake of Him as life.

so how does that make me feel better about the people born in islamic areas or buddhist areas destined go to hell? they're evil for a reason?

i'd rather go to hell as a martyr for all the people who're going to hell on complete chance than go to heaven because i'm lucky enough to know christianity and be able to practice it
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BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:17:21
February 17 2009 07:12 GMT
#121
On February 17 2009 16:03 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:00 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:39 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:31 travis wrote:
The biggest problem I have with it is that I have absolutely no good reason to believe it. I think that the message could be partially accurate but that it's a problem when it is taken too literally.

This is true. Through reasoning there's a snowball's chance in hell of you believing that God exists. Rather than using your mind to understand everything, you'll need to experience it yourself. What you said in the second sentence is an example of using your mind to try and understand what the Bible teaches.

Some people grow up in the church life and it's a lot easier because they're open to God existing.


reasoning is what lead him to believe that most flavors of christianity are unfair though

why would one even want to experience the reality of such an unfair religion?

+ Show Spoiler +
for reference, the flavors of christianity i consider the closest to fair are the ones where only good works and a pious life are required, not faith

Don't you remember that in the Bible there were two trees in the Garden of Eden? The Tree of Life, which is what God wants man to eat from, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Why is it that good and evil are on the same tree? Because God didn't simply intend for us to good and stray away from evil. God wanted us to partake of Him as life.

so how does that make me feel better about the people born in islamic areas or buddhist areas destined go to hell? they're evil for a reason?

i'd rather go to hell as a martyr for all the people who're going to hell on complete chance than go to heaven because i'm lucky enough to know christianity and be able to practice it

The truth is the truth, whether you believe or not, whether you like it or not.

Also, I find it really odd that you focus on what YOU want to believe. I'm guessing you don't follow to the Bible strictly but rather as a guideline?
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:15:03
February 17 2009 07:14 GMT
#122
i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything).
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fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
February 17 2009 07:16 GMT
#123
The Apocryphon of John has some stuff to say about the Garden of Eden. Its so wild that it was not included in the original bible, even though it was written by John.

It was used by a form of early Christians, the Gnostics. They believed that one is saved through knowlege (gnosis). In fact a number of ancient texts on the subject were discovered on the subject. Anyway, here are their core beliefs:

The Ten Major Principles of the Gnostic Revelation
From Exegesis, by Philip K. Dick
The Gnostic Christians of the second century believed that only a special revelation of knowledge rather than faith could save a person. The contents of this revelation could not be received empirically or derived a priori. They considered this special gnosis so valuable that it must be kept secret. Here are the ten major principles of the gnostic revelation:

1. The creator of this world is demented.
2. The world is not as it appears, in order to hide the evil in it, a delusive veil obscuring it and the deranged deity.
3. There is another, better realm of God, and all our efforts are to be directed toward
1. returning there
2. bringing it here
4. Our actual lives stretch thousands of years back, and we can be made to remember our origin in the stars.
5. Each of us has a divine counterpart unfallen who can reach a hand down to us to awaken us. This other personality is the authentic waking self; the one we have now is asleep and minor. We are in fact asleep, and in the hands of a dangerous magician disguised as a good god, the deranged creator deity. The bleakness, the evil and pain in this world, the fact that it is a deterministic prison controlled by the demented creator causes us willingly to split with the reality principle early in life, and so to speak willingly fall asleep in delusion.
6. You can pass from the delusional prison world into the peaceful kingdom if the True Good God places you under His grace and allows you to see reality through His eyes.
7. Christ gave, rather than received, revelation; he taught his followers how to enter the kingdom while still alive, where other mystery religions only bring about amnesis: knowledge of it at the "other time" in "the other realm," not here. He causes it to come here, and is the living agency to the Sole Good God (i.e. the Logos).
8. Probably the real, secret Christian church still exists, long underground, with the living Corpus Christi as its head or ruler, the members absorbed into it. Through participation in it they probably have vast, seemingly magical powers.
9. The division into "two times" (good and evil) and "two realms" (good and evil) will abruptly end with victory for the good time here, as the presently invisible kingdom separates and becomes visible. We cannot know the date.
10. During this time period we are on the sifting bridge being judged according to which power we give allegiance to, the deranged creator demiurge of this world or the One Good God and his kingdom, whom we know through Christ.


This was at one time mainstream Christianity. Just goes to show you shouldn't make assumptions.

+ Show Spoiler +

What is Gnosticism?

“Gnosis” and “Gnosticism” are still rather arcane terms, though in the last two decades they have been increasingly encountered in the vocabulary of contemporary society. The word Gnosis derives from Greek and connotes "knowledge" or the "act of knowing". On first hearing, it is sometimes confused with another more common term of the same root but opposite sense: agnostic, literally "not knowing”. The Greek language differentiates between rational, propositional knowledge, and a distinct form of knowing obtained by experience or perception. It is this latter knowledge gained from interior comprehension and personal experience that constitutes gnosis.1

In the first century of the Christian era the term “Gnostic” came to denote a heterodox segment of the diverse new Christian community. Among early followers of Christ it appears there were groups who delineated themselves from the greater household of the Church by claiming not simply a belief in Christ and his message, but a "special witness" or revelatory experience of the divine. It was this experience or gnosis that set the true follower of Christ apart, so they asserted. Stephan Hoeller explains that these Christians held a "conviction that direct, personal and absolute knowledge of the authentic truths of existence is accessible to human beings, and, moreover, that the attainment of such knowledge must always constitute the supreme achievement of human life."2

What the "authentic truths of existence" affirmed by the Gnostics were will be briefly reviewed below, but first a historical overview of the early Church might be useful. In the initial century and a half of Christianity -- the period when we find first mention of "Gnostic" Christians -- no single acceptable format of Christian thought had yet been defined. During this formative period Gnosticism was one of many currents moving within the deep waters of the new religion. The ultimate course Christianity, and Western culture with it, would take was undecided at this early moment. Gnosticism was one of the seminal influences shaping that destiny.

That Gnosticism was, at least briefly, in the mainstream of Christianity is witnessed by the fact that one of its most influential teachers, Valentinus, may have been in consideration during the mid-second century for election as the Bishop of Rome.3 Born in Alexandria around 100 C.E., Valentinus distinguished himself at an early age as an extraordinary teacher and leader in the highly educated and diverse Alexandrian Christian community. In mid-life he migrated from Alexandria to the Church's evolving capital, Rome, where he played an active role in the public affairs of the Church. A prime characteristic of Gnostics was their claim to be keepers of sacred traditions, gospels, rituals, and successions – esoteric matters for which many Christians were either not properly prepared or simply not inclined. Valentinus, true to this Gnostic predilection, apparently professed to have received a special apostolic sanction through Theudas, a disciple and initiate of the Apostle Paul, and to be a custodian of doctrines and rituals neglected by what would become Christian orthodoxy.4 Though an influential member of the Roman church in the mid-second century, by the end of his life Valentinus had been forced from the public eye and branded a heretic by the developing orthodoxy Church.

While the historical and theological details are far too complex for proper explication here, the tide of history can be said to have turned against Gnosticism in the middle of the second century. No Gnostic after Valentinus would ever come so near prominence in the greater Church. Gnosticism's emphasis on personal experience, its continuing revelations and production of new scripture, its asceticism and paradoxically contrasting libertine postures, were all met with increasing suspicion. By 180 C.E. Irenaeus, bishop of Lyon, was publishing his first attacks on Gnosticism as heresy, a labor that would be continued with increasing vehemence by the church Fathers throughout the next century.

Orthodoxy Christianity was deeply and profoundly influenced by its struggles with Gnosticism in the second and third centuries. Formulations of many central traditions in Christian theology came as reflections and shadows of this confrontation with the Gnosis.5 But by the end of the fourth century the struggle was essentially over: the evolving ecclesia had added the force of political correctness to dogmatic denunciation, and with this sword so-called "heresy" was painfully cut from the Christian body. Gnosticism as a Christian tradition was largely eradicated, its remaining teachers ostracized, and its sacred books destroyed. All that remained for students seeking to understand Gnosticism in later centuries were the denunciations and fragments preserved in the patristic heresiologies. Or at least so it seemed until the mid-twentieth century.
Discovery of the Nag Hammadi Library

It was on a December day in the year of 1945, near the town of Nag Hammadi in Upper Egypt, that the course of Gnostic studies was radically renewed and forever changed. An Arab peasant, digging around a boulder in search of fertilizer for his fields, happened upon an old, rather large red earthenware jar. Hoping to have found a buried treasure, and with due hesitation and apprehension about the jinn who might attend such a hoard, he smashed the jar open. Inside he discovered no treasure and no genie, but instead books: more than a dozen old codices bound in golden brown leather.6 Little did he realize that he had found an extraordinary collection of ancient texts, manuscripts hidden a millennium and a half before -- probably by monks from the nearby monastery of St. Pachomius seeking to preserve them from a destruction ordered by the church as part of its violent expunging of heterodoxy and heresy.

How the Nag Hammadi manuscripts eventually passed into scholarly hands is a fascinating story too lengthy to relate here. But today, now over fifty years since being unearthed and more than two decades after final translation and publication in English as The Nag Hammadi Library, 7 their importance has become astoundingly clear: These thirteen papyrus codices containing fifty-two sacred texts are representatives of the long lost "Gnostic Gospels", a last extant testament of what orthodox Christianity perceived to be its most dangerous and insidious challenge, the feared opponent that the Church Fathers had reviled under many different names, but most commonly as Gnosticism. The discovery of the Nag Hammadi texts has fundamentally revised our understanding of both Gnosticism and the early Christian church.
Overview of Gnostic Teachings

What was it that these "knowers" knew? What made them such dangerous heretics? The complexities of Gnosticism are legion, making any generalizations wisely suspect. While several systems for defining and categorizing Gnosticism have been proposed over the years, none has gained any general acceptance.8 So with advance warning that this is most certainly not a definitive summary of Gnosticism and its many permutations, we will outline just four elements generally agreed to be characteristic of Gnostic thought.

The first essential characteristic of Gnosticism was introduced above: Gnosticism asserts that "direct, personal and absolute knowledge of the authentic truths of existence is accessible to human beings," and that the attainment of such knowledge is the supreme achievement of human life. Gnosis is not a rational, propositional, logical understanding, but a knowing acquired by experience. The Gnostics were not much interested in dogma or coherent, rational theology -- a fact that makes the study of Gnosticism particularly difficult for individuals with "bookkeeper mentalities. One simply cannot cipher up Gnosticism into syllogistic dogmatic affirmations. The Gnostics cherished the ongoing force of divine revelation--Gnosis was the creative experience of revelation, a rushing progression of understanding, and not a static creed. Carl Gustav Jung, the great Swiss psychologist and a life-long student of Gnosticism in its various historical permutations, affirms,

…We find in Gnosticism what was lacking in the centuries that followed: a belief in the efficacy of individual revelation and individual knowledge. This belief was rooted in the proud feeling of man's affinity with the gods....

In his study, The American Religion, noted literary critic Harold Bloom suggests a second characteristic of Gnosticism that might help us conceptually circumscribe its mysterious heart. Gnosticism, says Bloom, "is a knowing, by and of an uncreated self, or self-within-the self, and [this] knowledge leads to freedom...."9 Primary among all the revelatory perceptions a Gnostic might reach was the profound awakening that came with knowledge that something within him was uncreated. The Gnostics called this "uncreated self" the divine seed, the pearl, the spark of knowing: consciousness, intelligence, light. And this seed of intellect was the self-same substance of God. It was man's authentic reality, the glory of humankind and divinity alike. If woman or man truly came to gnosis of this spark, she understood that she was truly free: Not contingent, not a conception of sin, not a flawed crust of flesh, but the stuff of God, and the conduit of God's immanent realization. There was always a paradoxical cognizance of duality in experiencing this "self-within-a-self". How could it not be paradoxical: By all rational perception, man clearly was not God, and yet in essential truth, was Godly. This conundrum was a Gnostic mystery, and its knowing was their treasure.

The creator god, the one who claimed in evolving orthodox dogma to have made man, and to own him, the god who would have man contingent upon him, born ex nihilo by his will, was a lying demon and not God at all. Gnostics called him by many deprecatory names: "Saklas", the fool; "Ialdebaoth", the blind god; and "Demiurge", the architect or lesser creative force.

Theodotus, a Gnostic teacher writing in Asia Minor between 140 and 160 C.E., explained that the sacred strength of gnosis reveals "who we were, what we have become, where we have been cast out of, where we are bound for, what we have been purified of, what generation and regeneration are."10 "Yet", the eminent scholar of Gnosticism, Elaine Pagels, comments in exegesis, "to know oneself, at the deepest level, is simultaneously to know God: this is the secret of gnosis.... Self-knowledge is knowledge of God; the self and the divine are identical." 11

The Gospel of Thomas, one of the Gnostic texts found preserved in the Nag Hammadi Library, gives these words of the living Jesus:

Jesus said, `I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become drunk from the bubbling stream which I have measured out.... 12

He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him.' 13

He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: What a remarkably heretical image! The Gospel of Thomas in its entirety is an extraordinary scripture. Professor Helmut Koester of Harvard University notes that though ultimately this Gospel was condemned and destroyed by the evolving orthodox church, it may be as old or older than the four canonical gospels preserved, and even have served as a source document to them.14

This brings us to the third prominent element in our brief summary of Gnosticism: its reverence for texts and scriptures unaccepted by the orthodox fold. Gnostic experience was mythopoetic: in story and metaphor, and perhaps also in ritual enactments, Gnosticism sought expression of subtle, visionary insights inexpressible by rational proposition or dogmatic affirmation. For the Gnostics, revelation was the nature of Gnosis. Irritated by their profusion of "inspired texts" and myths, Ireneaus complains in his classic second century refutation of Gnosticism, that “…every one of them generates something new, day by day, according to his ability; for no one is deemed perfect, who does not develop...some mighty fiction.”16

The fourth characteristic that we might delineate to understand classical Gnosticism is the most difficult of the four to succinctly untangle, and also one of the most disturbing to subsequent orthodox theology. This is the image of God as a dyad or duality. While affirming the ultimate unity and integrity of the Divine, Gnosticism noted in its experiential encounter with the numinous, contrasting manifestations and qualities.

In many of the Nag Hammadi Gnostic texts God is imaged as a dyad of masculine and feminine elements. Though their language is specifically Christian, Gnostic sources often use sexual symbolism to describe God. Prof. Pagels explains,

One group of gnostic sources claims to have received a secret tradition from Jesus through James and through Mary Magdalene [who the Gnostics revered as consort to Jesus]. Members of this group prayed to both the divine Father and Mother:

`From Thee, Father, and through Thee, Mother, the two immortal names, Parents of the divine being, and thou, dweller in heaven, humanity, of the mighty name...'17

Several trends within Gnosticism saw in God a union of two disparate natures, a union well imaged with sexual symbolism. Gnostics honored the feminine nature and, in reflection, Elaine Pagels has argued that Christian Gnostic women enjoyed a far greater degree of social and ecclesiastical equality than their orthodox sisters. Jesus himself, taught some Gnostics, had prefigured this mystic relationship: His most beloved disciple had been a woman, Mary Magdalene, his consort. The Gospel of Philip relates,

"...the companion of the Savior is Mary Magdalene. But Christ loved her more than all the disciples, and used to kiss her often on her mouth. The rest of the disciples were offended... They said to him, "Why do you love her more than all of us? the Savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you as I love her?"18

The most mysterious and sacred of all Gnostic rituals may have played upon this perception of God as "duality seeking unity." The Gospel of Philip (which in its entirety might be read as a commentary on Gnostic ritual) relates that the Lord established five great sacraments or mysteries: "a baptism and a chrism, and a eucharist, and a redemption, and a bridal chamber."19 Whether this ultimate sacrament of the bridal chamber was a ritual enacted by a man and women, an allegorical term for a mystical experience, or a union of both, we do not know. Only hints are given in Gnostic texts about what this sacrament might be:

Christ came to rectify the separation...and join the two components; and to give life unto those who had died by separation and join them together. Now a woman joins with her husband in the bridal [chamber], and those who have joined in the bridal [chamber] will not reseparate.20

We are left with our poetic imaginations to consider what this might mean. Though Orthodox polemicists frequently accused Gnostics of unorthodox sexual behavior, exactly how these ideas and images played out in human affairs remains historically uncertain.

Classical Christian Gnosticism was lost to the Western world during the fourth and fifth centuries. But the Gnostic world view -- with its comprehension of humankind's true uncreated nature and inherent affinity with God; its affirmation of interior individual experience granting certain knowledge; and its awareness of demiurgic forces binding human consciousness -- was not so easily extinguished. These Gnostic perceptions continued in various forms to course through Western culture though perforce often by occult paths. Gnosticism was and is today a tradition perpetually reborn in the gnosis kardia of humankind, a tradition eternally alive within those “who have ears to hear” its call.
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SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:18:22
February 17 2009 07:18 GMT
#124
wait fight_or_flight, could you shave that down to the main points and how they impact our argument? summary please
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fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
February 17 2009 07:20 GMT
#125
The quote has the main points, which are the things they believed are different than the arguments which are being made right now against Christianity (which may be valid arguments but don't disprove that the whole of Christianity is wrong, just possibly specific points).
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SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:21:37
February 17 2009 07:21 GMT
#126
On February 17 2009 16:20 fight_or_flight wrote:
The quote has the main points, which are the things they believed are different than the arguments which are being made right now against Christianity (which may be valid arguments but don't disprove that the whole of Christianity is wrong, just possibly specific points).

i actually haven't been trying to prove christianity is wrong by attacking the claims it makes, only that the idea that most christians follow of faith in jesus jesus being the only way to salvation is inherently unfair.
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BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:22:27
February 17 2009 07:21 GMT
#127
On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything).

How is this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?

I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?

Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:29:55
February 17 2009 07:23 GMT
#128
On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything).

How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?

I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?

Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?

im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.

edit: and did you just call it whining and complaining? would you call protests against the genocide in darfur whining and complaining? cuz most of those people are probably going to hell cuz most of those people probably aren't christian.
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SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:37:15
February 17 2009 07:36 GMT
#129
really, how would you feel if you were born a girl in darfur, knowing nothing but the need to survive, then being struck by a war, then being raped and killed

and then you find out you're going to suffer for eternity because you didn't know about this cool dude named jesus christ

you'd feel pretty shitty
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BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 17 2009 07:36 GMT
#130
On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything).

How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?

I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?

Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?

im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.

Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease.

There are two possible reactions.

1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar.
2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever.

Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease?

No.

Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:39:01
February 17 2009 07:37 GMT
#131
On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything).

How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?

I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?

Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?

im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.

Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease.

There are two possible reactions.

1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar.
2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever.

Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease?

No.

Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy.

IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE

if you think every single person would be and are offered this antidote (of jesus), you are delusional
posting on liquid sites in current year
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 17 2009 07:38 GMT
#132
On February 17 2009 16:36 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
really, how would you feel if you were born a girl in darfur, knowing nothing but the need to survive, then being struck by a war, then being raped and killed

and then you find out you're going to suffer for eternity because you didn't know about this cool dude named jesus christ

I know where you're coming from but really, it is up to God what happens. I don't know how God will judge those who never even heard the gospel. Complaining about the unfairness of this when you DON'T EVEN know how things will occur, however, is absurd.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 17 2009 07:39 GMT
#133
On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything).

How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?

I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?

Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?

im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.

Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease.

There are two possible reactions.

1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar.
2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever.

Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease?

No.

Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy.

IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE

if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional

Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 17 2009 07:39 GMT
#134
On February 17 2009 16:38 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:36 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
really, how would you feel if you were born a girl in darfur, knowing nothing but the need to survive, then being struck by a war, then being raped and killed

and then you find out you're going to suffer for eternity because you didn't know about this cool dude named jesus christ

I know where you're coming from but really, it is up to God what happens. I don't know how God will judge those who never even heard the gospel. Complaining about the unfairness of this when you DON'T EVEN know how things will occur, however, is absurd.

deus ex machina for everybody who doesnt get an opportunity?

that sounds like bad writing to me
posting on liquid sites in current year
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:40:52
February 17 2009 07:40 GMT
#135
On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything).

How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?

I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?

Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?

im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.

Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease.

There are two possible reactions.

1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar.
2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever.

Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease?

No.

Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy.

IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE

if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional

Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now.

but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole.
posting on liquid sites in current year
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:42:58
February 17 2009 07:41 GMT
#136
On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything).

How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?

I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?

Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?

im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.

Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease.

There are two possible reactions.

1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar.
2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever.

Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease?

No.

Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy.

IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE

if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional

Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now.

but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole.

Did God create sin?
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:43:39
February 17 2009 07:42 GMT
#137
On February 17 2009 16:41 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything).

How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?

I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?

Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?

im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.

Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease.

There are two possible reactions.

1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar.
2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever.

Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease?

No.

Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy.

IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE

if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional

Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now.

but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole.

Did God create sin?

god created everything

and im not insulting you, i'm insulting god for being such an asshole why would you ninja edit me like that?
posting on liquid sites in current year
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 17 2009 07:44 GMT
#138
On February 17 2009 16:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:41 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything).

How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?

I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?

Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?

im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.

Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease.

There are two possible reactions.

1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar.
2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever.

Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease?

No.

Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy.

IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE

if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional

Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now.

but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole.

Did God create sin?

god created everything

So you're saying God thought something along the lines of "yay let's give everyone a disease that kills them and forces me to do even more stuff to save them!"
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 17 2009 07:44 GMT
#139
On February 17 2009 16:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:41 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything).

How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?

I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?

Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?

im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.

Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease.

There are two possible reactions.

1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar.
2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever.

Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease?

No.

Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy.

IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE

if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional

Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now.

but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole.

Did God create sin?

god created everything

and im not insulting you, i'm insulting god for being such an asshole why would you ninja edit me like that?

Sorry, I realized you were talking in context of the analogy.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:46:06
February 17 2009 07:45 GMT
#140
On February 17 2009 16:44 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:41 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything).

How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?

I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?

Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?

im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.

Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease.

There are two possible reactions.

1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar.
2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever.

Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease?

No.

Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy.

IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE

if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional

Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now.

but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole.

Did God create sin?

god created everything

So you're saying God thought something along the lines of "yay let's give everyone a disease that kills them and forces me to do even more stuff to save them!"

it's what genesis and a whooooooole bunch of christians say

if you beg to differ, feel free to found your own denomination of christianity

you can call it "Church of the God that's our Friend that helps Combat the Evil that Came Out of Nowhere"

i mean most christians say evil came from the fact that god gave humans free will, but you're saying god is helping humans against evil that came from ???
posting on liquid sites in current year
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 17 2009 07:47 GMT
#141
On February 17 2009 16:45 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:44 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:41 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:
[quote]
How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?

I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?

Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?

im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.

Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease.

There are two possible reactions.

1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar.
2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever.

Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease?

No.

Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy.

IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE

if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional

Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now.

but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole.

Did God create sin?

god created everything

So you're saying God thought something along the lines of "yay let's give everyone a disease that kills them and forces me to do even more stuff to save them!"

it's what genesis and a whooooooole bunch of christians say

if you beg to differ, feel free to found your own denomination of christianity

you can call it "Church of the God that's our Friend that helps Combat the Evil that Came Out of Nowhere"

i mean most christians say evil came from the fact that god gave humans free will, but you're saying god is helping humans against evil that came from ???

if you care to show me some references that show this, please do.

I've always thought that God originally intended for man to take God as his life, hence the Tree of Life. Nothing more. However, Satan entered the picture and here we are.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:52:09
February 17 2009 07:48 GMT
#142
On February 17 2009 16:47 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:45 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:44 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:41 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
[quote]
im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.

Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease.

There are two possible reactions.

1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar.
2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever.

Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease?

No.

Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy.

IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE

if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional

Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now.

but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole.

Did God create sin?

god created everything

So you're saying God thought something along the lines of "yay let's give everyone a disease that kills them and forces me to do even more stuff to save them!"

it's what genesis and a whooooooole bunch of christians say

if you beg to differ, feel free to found your own denomination of christianity

you can call it "Church of the God that's our Friend that helps Combat the Evil that Came Out of Nowhere"

i mean most christians say evil came from the fact that god gave humans free will, but you're saying god is helping humans against evil that came from ???

if you care to show me some references that show this, please do.

I've always thought that God originally intended for man to take God as his life, hence the Tree of Life. Nothing more. However, Satan entered the picture and here we are.

didn't god create the angel that would eventually be the fallen angel satan?

or wait, by the genesis interpretation of the serpent being the devil...

didnt god put him there?

[image loading]
posting on liquid sites in current year
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 07:53:47
February 17 2009 07:53 GMT
#143
or are you preaching a christianity without an omnipotent god?

are we pawns in a battle between god and satan? i'm pretty sure that's not the most common type of christianity.
posting on liquid sites in current year
BackHo
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
New Zealand400 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-11 08:13:02
February 17 2009 08:06 GMT
#144
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 17 2009 08:07 GMT
#145
you are so not backho

your english is way too good
posting on liquid sites in current year
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 17 2009 08:08 GMT
#146
On February 17 2009 16:53 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
or are you preaching a christianity without an omnipotent god?

are we pawns in a battle between god and satan? i'm pretty sure that's not the most common type of christianity.

I don't get why you would jump to such absurd conclusions other than to try and debase me.

Also, God may have created Lucifer/Satan but I wouldn't go as far as to say that God intentionally injected man with Satan's sinful nature.

I've noticed that people opposing Christians like to use devious and tricky means to try and boost their position. It'd be a lot better if you didn't fall into this category because honestly, continuing this talk is difficult when I have to explain every single little thing.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 08:18:01
February 17 2009 08:11 GMT
#147
On February 17 2009 17:08 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:53 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
or are you preaching a christianity without an omnipotent god?

are we pawns in a battle between god and satan? i'm pretty sure that's not the most common type of christianity.

I don't get why you would jump to such absurd conclusions other than to try and debase me.

Also, God may have created Lucifer/Satan but I wouldn't go as far as to say that God intentionally injected man with Satan's sinful nature.

I've noticed that people opposing Christians like to use devious and tricky means to try and boost their position. It'd be a lot better if you didn't fall into this category because honestly, continuing this talk is difficult when I have to explain every single little thing.

i'm being 100% serious. omnipotence is precluded by omniscience, so by its very definition, there's no way that god could create satan without knowing the risks and conclusion. is god truly omnipotent or not? you can't have it both ways.

edit: i've found a counter to my own argument http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience#Definition

but honestly, you're being more of a jerk than i am in this argument if you call my conclusions absurd and call my argument "devious and tricky"

how was i supposed to know that god didn't have to be truly omniscient to be omnipotent? seriously... that distinction is pretty obscure.

it still leaves the question of why/how god could create characters that could act in evil manners? even if he weren't omniscient, omnipotence would mean he knew the nature of what he was creating, minus what it would do with its free will, wouldnt it? was he blindfolding himself and throwing darts at a dartboard when creating the first beings?

edit2: i have to finish my japanese homework and go to sleep, so i won't be able to post for maybe 20 hours? i'll be back though
posting on liquid sites in current year
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 17 2009 08:17 GMT
#148
On February 17 2009 17:11 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 17:08 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:53 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
or are you preaching a christianity without an omnipotent god?

are we pawns in a battle between god and satan? i'm pretty sure that's not the most common type of christianity.

I don't get why you would jump to such absurd conclusions other than to try and debase me.

Also, God may have created Lucifer/Satan but I wouldn't go as far as to say that God intentionally injected man with Satan's sinful nature.

I've noticed that people opposing Christians like to use devious and tricky means to try and boost their position. It'd be a lot better if you didn't fall into this category because honestly, continuing this talk is difficult when I have to explain every single little thing.

i'm being 100% serious. omnipotence is precluded by omniscience, so by its very definition, there's no way that god could create satan without knowing the risks and conclusion. is god truly omnipotent or not? you can't have it both ways.

edit: i've found a counter to my own argument http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience#Definition

but honestly, you're being more of a jerk than i am in this argument if you call my conclusions absurd and call my argument "devious and tricky"

how was i supposed to know that god didn't have to be truly omniscient to be omnipotent? seriously... that distinction is pretty obscure.

edit2: i have to finish my japanese homework and go to sleep, so i won't be able to post for maybe 20 hours? i'll be back though

Sorry if I offended you. I wasn't aware of that.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
Tehpanda
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States59 Posts
February 17 2009 09:24 GMT
#149
Imagine a boy is born in some far off country. From birth he is a moral and decent person. He embraces goodwill, fairness and altruism. He honors his family and adopts their customs. He becomes a leader in his church and community as a force for good, organizing programs that aide the poor, needy and less fortunate. He attends school and becomes well-learned and open-minded. He becomes a doctor and, over the course of his career, saves thousands of lives. When he is old enough to retire, he keeps only what he needs to live on, and donates the rest to charities. When he is 80, he is approached by a strangely-dressed man from another community. The man tells him of Christianity, and its core belief system in embracing Jesus Christ as the gateway to heaven. Our young boy, now an old man, gives a donation to the traveling missionary and wishes him and his people good tidings, but expresses his own community, religion and customs have been kind to him, that although he denounces no faith, he wishes his sons and daughters to grow up in his community, sharing his morals of goodwill and altruism. Finally, after 100 years of service to his friends, family and community, a career of saving lives, and a history of true empathy and virtue, this man dies. Because he did not embrace Jesus Christ, he is sentenced to eternal damnation.

This is how God seems 'unfair' to many, myself included.

To the OP:
Spirituality isn't something you decide to pick one day. Travel and experience different cultures, read philosophies from all viewpoints, find what makes you happy and what you love. Spirituality never stops growing; you will find more that you believe and more that you reject the more that you live your life. Never limit yourself to somebody else's morals or ethics. Focus your life on what you believe, from your own personal experience. Religious structures are unique and independent to every person. Lacking spirituality at the moment does not mean it's time to jump into organized religion, it means its time to explore.
Error: 1641 SQLSTATE: HY000 (ER_MISSING_SIG): User signature not found.
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 17 2009 11:05 GMT
#150
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Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 11:30:01
February 17 2009 11:18 GMT
#151
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BackHo
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
New Zealand400 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-11 08:12:56
February 17 2009 11:18 GMT
#152
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 17 2009 11:44 GMT
#153
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IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 17 2009 11:47 GMT
#154
On February 17 2009 20:18 Mada_Jiang wrote:
Hi Heaven Panda
I once thought the exact same thing, because around me was people who FEARED God because all that was ever taught to them was how bad they are and how they are going to go to hell for not accepting Jesus. Having gotten to know God and really spent time with him, I came to realise the truth. And that is, God is not "sentencing" ANYONE to eternal damnation. God created us just as parents have children. Who the hell would want their children to be eternally damned? God loves us so much that he is urging us, to take his hand, so that we can be with him. What people call "damnation" really is just seperation from God.

God wants all his children to be with him, but if you choose not to you, then you are don't have to be. And if you are not with him, then you can't protect you from whatever else may be there waiting for us. I don't know about you but if my child seperated from me and was mistreated by others, I would be beyond sad. Our God feels deep pain every time one of his children decides to be away from him, deny him, and pretend he dosn't even exist.

BTW, we do NOT know who embraces Jesus Christ, after death. I believe that God is a loving God and gives us more opportunitie(s) even after death and I believe that those who you call "condemned" are only those who are dead set at choosing to be seperate from God and refuse his help and I dunno who would but I would imagine that they would at least have to hate God pretty hard... someone who is going to curse God even at that point.

how exactly did you get to know god and spend time with him
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 17 2009 11:47 GMT
#155
Hi BackHo, you really are THE BackHo it is an honour ^.^

oh nevermind i get it now
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 17 2009 12:09 GMT
#156
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IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 17 2009 12:25 GMT
#157
ill dedicate the win to you if you stop basing your life around hallucinations
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 17 2009 12:42 GMT
#158
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Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 17 2009 12:55 GMT
#159
actually you can see heat


im just messing though i agree with what you are saying
TechniQ.UK
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United Kingdom391 Posts
February 17 2009 14:26 GMT
#160
Ok just 2 quick answers:

1) Gnosticism was heavily rejected even in the epistles of john and paul before it took off and was utterly rejected by the early church so Gnosticism became it's own little cult outside of the church. So no it was not mainstream Christianity at any time.

Basically the reason in the letters or gospel by John where he keeps refering to Light all the time was a direct rebuke to the gnostics who we're absolutely facinated by this idea that God was hidden away somewhere and was bad, but what John and others we're saying was no, God has revealed himself, God is good and God is the saviour.

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.


Fan of: Acer.Scarlett and Liquid'NonY //
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 17 2009 14:53 GMT
#161
On February 17 2009 21:42 Mada_Jiang wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 21:25 IdrA wrote:
ill dedicate the win to you if you stop basing your life around hallucinations


LOL, alright mate, I will be looking forward to see that dedication at the end of the series. Like I said before, It's almost impossible to debate or reason with someone who hasn't felt the love of God and seen his works. You can't see heat, but exists because you can feel it and see its influence. You can say its hallucinations without even experiencing it, but mate... I would say you are really missing out.

Peace be with you Idra. Play good, I got 20 bucks on ya!

theres lots of people in the loony bin who are really *really* fucking sure their dead relative's ghosts told them to kill some guy.


http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
ruXxar
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Norway5669 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 22:36:22
February 17 2009 15:39 GMT
#162
I think a huge part of why people follow religion because they are afraid of what will happen to them after death.
They don't want their spirit or soul(if there is one) to be tortured in hell for all eternity(and honestly, who would?).

Of course we can't know whether there is life after death as we are alive, so people think : why should I upset god(or whoever you belive in) when there is even the smallest of chance that you will be forever trapped in hell.

On the opposite side we have the people with the view that when we are dead our conciousness will just seize to exist, or that what happens to us after death has no connection to how we acted in this life.

It ultimately comes down to what you want to belive in.
Is this life all we have, or is there something beyond(which is connected to how good/bad we acted in this life)?
"alright guys im claiming my role im actually politician I can manipulate a persons vote during the day phase, used it on clarity last phase and forced him to vote for HF. full role name donald trump, definitely town sided". - EBH
Savio
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1850 Posts
February 17 2009 16:33 GMT
#163
On February 17 2009 15:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 15:26 travis wrote:
ok but so, all the muslims and jews and hindus etc who believe they have a personal relationship with god are wrong and will go to hell for a lack of faith in jesus? despite pious and virtuous lives?

yep. if they sin at all, and never ask jesus for forgiveness, they're screwed. that's the biggest problem i have with christianity. some of the more hardcore christians in this thread would claim that god attempts to reach out and teach these truths via dreams/revelations to all sinners, but that seems a little far-fetched to me.


After my test on Friday I will explain how not all Christians believe this and how God saves those who never even hear of Jesus Christ.

The short of it is, even I can see that cursing people for simply being born in the wrong place, and never being able to learn about Christ is not just. So do you think I am more merciful than God? Not hardly. He is more merciful than any of us. I will explain later what his plan is.
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. – Winston Churchill
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 17 2009 17:19 GMT
#164
On February 17 2009 13:58 TechniQ.UK wrote:
As for the claim Jesus didn't for fill some promises, those 5 you listed. I went through them and quite a number of them actually we're for filled, e.g. the Jews coming from 4 corners was about the gospel going everywhere and the Jews in other nations being converted under one banner along with gentiles.


Jesus fulfilled none of the prophecies I posted.

And Isaiah 11:12 is about exactly what I said it was about: the end of the diaspora and the return of Jews to their promised land. That prophecy has nothing to do with gentiles doing anything or the gospel going anywhere.

and i think i listed 2 of them that are linked to the book of revelation prophecy so they will be for filled by Jesus.


So he fucked up last time, but he'll definitely get it right "next time"!
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
ruXxar
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Norway5669 Posts
February 17 2009 17:20 GMT
#165
On February 18 2009 01:33 Savio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 15:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:26 travis wrote:
ok but so, all the muslims and jews and hindus etc who believe they have a personal relationship with god are wrong and will go to hell for a lack of faith in jesus? despite pious and virtuous lives?

yep. if they sin at all, and never ask jesus for forgiveness, they're screwed. that's the biggest problem i have with christianity. some of the more hardcore christians in this thread would claim that god attempts to reach out and teach these truths via dreams/revelations to all sinners, but that seems a little far-fetched to me.


After my test on Friday I will explain how not all Christians believe this and how God saves those who never even hear of Jesus Christ.

The short of it is, even I can see that cursing people for simply being born in the wrong place, and never being able to learn about Christ is not just. So do you think I am more merciful than God? Not hardly. He is more merciful than any of us. I will explain later what his plan is.


You're a prophet or something?
"alright guys im claiming my role im actually politician I can manipulate a persons vote during the day phase, used it on clarity last phase and forced him to vote for HF. full role name donald trump, definitely town sided". - EBH
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 18:20:59
February 17 2009 17:30 GMT
#166
On February 17 2009 16:45 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 16:44 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:41 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:
[quote]
How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?

I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?

Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?

im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.

Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease.

There are two possible reactions.

1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar.
2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever.

Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease?

No.

Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy.

IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE

if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional

Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now.

but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole.

Did God create sin?

god created everything

So you're saying God thought something along the lines of "yay let's give everyone a disease that kills them and forces me to do even more stuff to save them!"

it's what genesis and a whooooooole bunch of christians say

if you beg to differ, feel free to found your own denomination of christianity

you can call it "Church of the God that's our Friend that helps Combat the Evil that Came Out of Nowhere"

i mean most christians say evil came from the fact that god gave humans free will, but you're saying god is helping humans against evil that came from ???


Man, everyone continued the party without me!

Sin, as a result of Evil, does not exist in itself, much like darkness does not exist as an entity (like photons), but exists as the absence of light. Therefore, God did not create Evil, but it has always existed with the existence of free will, a divergence from what is good (the standard being God).

When God created mankind, he must have known they would have sinned, being omniscient and outside of space and time. This only means that he knew, not that he forced. Free will still exists within time; it is pointless to discuss it outside of time.

This is why, with the first instance of sin at the human level with Adam and Eve, God provided a way out through Jesus Christ (this is prophesied in Genesis). Why God chose this method, or why he created us at all knowing this would happen are all valid questions, but they also go beyond finite comprehension.
Soli Deo gloria.
ruXxar
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Norway5669 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 17:52:53
February 17 2009 17:51 GMT
#167
What is it that convinces you that Christianity is the true religion beliving in the right God, and that not Jewism(?) or Islam is the right religion?.

I think it comes down to that most people haven't really done much research on anything but their own religion, which they have been growing up with as part of their childhood(for example sunday church).

How can you say you are making the right choice when you haven't read all the scriptures from all the different religions out there?

What IS the right choice?

Basically you are trying to justify why you made the "right" choice, by proving why christianty is such a superior choice of way to live your life.

All in all, discussing religion is just bullshit, since you can never come up with proof that God exists(except point to scriputres that were written by humans... go figure).
"alright guys im claiming my role im actually politician I can manipulate a persons vote during the day phase, used it on clarity last phase and forced him to vote for HF. full role name donald trump, definitely town sided". - EBH
BackHo
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
New Zealand400 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-11 08:12:49
February 17 2009 21:08 GMT
#168
TechniQ.UK
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United Kingdom391 Posts
February 17 2009 21:33 GMT
#169
Mindcrime, you use sweeping statements with having no scriptural knowledge at all. If you maybe read the bible and understood it then you would understand he did for fill them. As for revelation, the old testament didn't define the exact time that Jesus would for fill these commandments so for filling it in revelation later, is logically still applicable.

Not for filling a prophecy and haven't for filled it a prophecy yet is 2 different things.

but it's ok it's clear your just throwing other peoples opinions at Christianity instead of bringing a logical argument to me.
Fan of: Acer.Scarlett and Liquid'NonY //
Nytefish
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United Kingdom4282 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 22:11:44
February 17 2009 22:09 GMT
#170
This is unrelated, but what was the name of those things sold by the catholic church a long time ago which basically allowed someone to "buy" their way into heaven? (It might have began with a C) I tried googling stuff but all I got was song lyrics and irrelevant blog posts.

I remember it from a history class but can't remember the name for them.
No I'm never serious.
ruXxar
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Norway5669 Posts
February 17 2009 22:11 GMT
#171
http://www.reserveaspotinheaven.com/

BETTA HURRY UP YO!
"alright guys im claiming my role im actually politician I can manipulate a persons vote during the day phase, used it on clarity last phase and forced him to vote for HF. full role name donald trump, definitely town sided". - EBH
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 22:16:01
February 17 2009 22:12 GMT
#172
Your messiah accomplished none of the important messianic prophesies laid out in the Tanakh. Just accept that.

Hell, if either of the genealogies presented in the gospels are correct then Jesus did not even have the required pedigree.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 23:30:59
February 17 2009 23:00 GMT
#173
i like how the 5 or so christians in this thread are selling christianity through such different mediums. some are selling a completely loving god and denying the fact that god damns anybody, some are selling a god powerless to reach out to at least everybody once in their life....

it's pretty funny.

the fact that savio had to even use the phrase "not all christians" shows how splintered it is

the fact that banzu is trying to justify unfairness that mada_jiang doesn't even acknowledge is funny too.

refer back to my aristotle analogy plz
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=87907&currentpage=4#79

the innate unfairness of the doctrines of christianity, taken literally to mean jesus is necessary for salvation, has been resolved or ignored in so many different ways by you guys, just like the wandering planets were explained so many ways in the context of an earth-centered universe. is the problem in resolving the unfairness, or the unfairness itself? was the problem in resolving the planets, or the geocentric model itself?
posting on liquid sites in current year
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 23:46:35
February 17 2009 23:35 GMT
#174
On February 18 2009 02:51 ruXxar wrote:
What is it that convinces you that Christianity is the true religion beliving in the right God, and that not Jewism(?) or Islam is the right religion?.

I think it comes down to that most people haven't really done much research on anything but their own religion, which they have been growing up with as part of their childhood(for example sunday church).

How can you say you are making the right choice when you haven't read all the scriptures from all the different religions out there?

What IS the right choice?

Basically you are trying to justify why you made the "right" choice, by proving why christianty is such a superior choice of way to live your life.

All in all, discussing religion is just bullshit, since you can never come up with proof that God exists(except point to scriputres that were written by humans... go figure).


First you say that you think it comes down to people not doing research. Then you make that assumption that people don't do research when they make their claims. Trust me, there are people who devote their lives to research on all sides of this discussion. Do you refuse to believe that you can make an informed decision once you have looked into each religion? Not all views are equally valid (I posted this before), but all views deserve to be respected and given a audience.

That's why I agree with you to a certain extent that you have to look into the other side of the discussion. However, if someone comes to a decision, it doesn't mean that they're willfully ignoring the rest.

For example, if you want to compare the Bible to the Qur'an, the Bible is historically falsifiable, presenting names of places, rulers during that time, etc that are historically accurate, while the Qur'an, or even the Mormon 'Bible' fails in this respect.

The Mormon Bible has gone through countless revisions (that are not just grammatical) that are well documented, while claiming that the Bible itself has gone through countless translations, thus losing accuracy. However, the Bible has be translated countless times from the original Hebrew and Aramaic, not from each other.

Facts likes these put one view in a better light than others (not necessarily Christianity either).

On February 18 2009 06:08 BackHo wrote:
I feel as though my questions were not adequately addressed - please answer in the numbering style provided if possible:

1. If God wanted humanity to develop maturity and discernment, doesn't it seem slightly backward that the tree they were forbidden to touch was said to offer that very thing - the knowledge of good and evil?

ie. the "God wants us to love Him" argument.



Would God be so insufficient that you needed a tree to gain the discernment God wants for you? The fact is that God told them not to do it. They could have gotten discernment from God, and much more easily.


2. If God didn't want us to grow from sinner to saved and wanted Adam and Eve to get everything right and for the world to stay perfect, and He didn't want them to eat the fruit, why put the tree there? To give humanity the choice? But if humanity is better off without the choice, isn't that kinda stupid?

ie. So which one is it, He wants to give us free will or He never intended for us to have free will?


If you would rather not have choice, then you are unlike all the people I know. You exercise choice everyday, down to making your posts. Choice is there, because without it, it's like rape, forced 'love' if you will.

Another example: You tell yourself that you will stop watching TV. By removing the TV from your home, you lose the ability to watch TV at all. This is no feat, you have no choice even if you wanted to. A bigger feat would be not watch TV while it still resides in your home.


3. God says: "if you eat from it you will surely die". If God knew all along that Adam and Eve would take the fruit and choose to sin, and put it there intentionally, so that they'd take it and learn some important lessons - painful though it would be for all concerned - why does He forbid them to touch it? Is it even plausible to say we're somehow better off in a post-fall world? Is that kind of sick and sadistic?

ie. Why did God tell them not to eat it? Was it a reverse psychology trick because all along He DID want them to eat it in order for them to exercise their free will and choose to love Him?


Again, God had to have known, he transcends space and time. This doesn't detract from our free will. God knowing something will happen does not mean he made it happen. I don't believe the post-fall world is better than a pre-fall world. But events transpired and this is what happened.

On February 18 2009 07:09 Nytefish wrote:
This is unrelated, but what was the name of those things sold by the catholic church a long time ago which basically allowed someone to "buy" their way into heaven? (It might have began with a C) I tried googling stuff but all I got was song lyrics and irrelevant blog posts.

I remember it from a history class but can't remember the name for them.


I believe these are called Indulgences. It was a monetary means of purchasing forgiveness or absolution. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Soli Deo gloria.
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-17 23:45:20
February 17 2009 23:44 GMT
#175
On February 18 2009 08:00 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i like how the 5 or so christians in this thread are selling christianity through such different mediums. some are selling a completely loving god and denying the fact that god damns anybody, some are selling a god powerless to reach out to at least everybody once in their life....

it's pretty funny.

the fact that savio had to even use the phrase "not all christians" shows how splintered it is

the fact that banzu is trying to justify unfairness that mada_jiang doesn't even acknowledge is funny too.

refer back to my aristotle analogy plz
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=87907&currentpage=4#79

the innate unfairness of the doctrines of christianity, taken literally to mean jesus is necessary for salvation, has been resolved or ignored in so many different ways by you guys, just like the wandering planets were explained so many ways in the context of an earth-centered universe. is the problem in resolving the unfairness, or the unfairness itself? was the problem in resolving the planets, or the geocentric model itself?


Many Christians believe different things to a different degree. Again, as long as these points are minor, or are not core beliefs, I don't see a problem with it and it also encourages discussion and debate.

I believe I am 'speaking' of a God who loves all but gives choice (those who choose not to be with God are respected for their decision and are removed from God for eternity). I also believe in a God who isn't bound by human effort. What kind of omnipotent God needs a person to go preach to another person in a non-Christian country?

On your topic of unfairness, you're right, it's not fair. I'll be the first to admit it. Jesus being necessary for salvation is just like a VIP pass being necessary to get into a club. Except in this case the VIP pass is free and all you do is ask for it. There is a rule, and people find it unfair, but arguing about it doesn't make that VIP pass regulation go away. Ultimately, some people don't like the idea and don't go at all.
Soli Deo gloria.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 17 2009 23:51 GMT
#176
I still want to know why we can't save our selves.
ruXxar
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Norway5669 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 00:04:18
February 17 2009 23:56 GMT
#177
So tell me then Chromyne, what makes you so certain that the Bible has not been altered, but that the Qur'an has?
What makes you think that the Bible in some way is more right than the Qur'an?(which is what you MUST think, or else you'd be a muslim)

Have you yourself read the Qur'an and checked up on every historical event?
Have you done the same for the bible?

Why should the events that took place in the bible be any more legit than those taking place in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an is alot younger than the Bible, and from what I've read, it has no alterations made to it. But Of course, I can not go back in time and prove that, nor can you do the same for the Bible.

But if we follow the train of thought that we are to trust the stories and writings of humans that lived before, than the Qur'an should be just as valid as the Bible, since both events are backed up by recordings of the people at that time.

How much do you actually know about the Qur'an and what is written therein?

Edit : just taking the Qur'an as an example here.
"alright guys im claiming my role im actually politician I can manipulate a persons vote during the day phase, used it on clarity last phase and forced him to vote for HF. full role name donald trump, definitely town sided". - EBH
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
February 18 2009 00:19 GMT
#178
On February 18 2009 08:56 ruXxar wrote:
So tell me then Chromyne, what makes you so certain that the Bible has not been altered, but that the Qur'an has?
What makes you think that the Bible in some way is more right than the Qur'an?(which is what you MUST think, or else you'd be a muslim)

Have you yourself read the Qur'an and checked up on every historical event?
Have you done the same for the bible?

Why should the events that took place in the bible be any more legit than those taking place in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an is alot younger than the Bible, and from what I've read, it has no alterations made to it. But Of course, I can not go back in time and prove that, nor can you do the same for the Bible.

But if we follow the train of thought that we are to trust the stories and writings of humans that lived before, than the Qur'an should be just as valid as the Bible, since both events are backed up by recordings of the people at that time.

How much do you actually know about the Qur'an and what is written therein?


It is clear that anything I say in reply will be insufficient in your eyes. You want absolute certainty with no room for any doubt. That's more certainty than knowing the chair you sit on will hold you up, or that your life won't end any second (or else you would never plan for the future). This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's not possible (as all the aggressive Atheists have already stated multiple times) and I'm quite sure you know it is, so I don't know what you're getting at because that conclusion has already been made.

I made a claim that the fact that the Bible refers to more falsifiable facts (names, places, events) than the Qur'an, that it is put in a better light. However, just looking at text, it should be just as valid as the Bible.

Now [for the sake of this illustration] you have two valid alternatives, but they are contradictory. Islam appears to be a continuation of Christianity as it affirms [parts of] the Bible, but denies many core aspects such as the crucifixion of Jesus, and the nature of God. This sort of pick and choose doesn't bode well with me. We could go into the text and start a whole 'contradictions' debate, but this is just rhetorical head games and won't further discussion.
Soli Deo gloria.
BackHo
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
New Zealand400 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-11 08:12:42
February 18 2009 00:19 GMT
#179
BackHo
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
New Zealand400 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-11 08:12:11
February 18 2009 00:24 GMT
#180
BackHo
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
New Zealand400 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-11 08:12:02
February 18 2009 00:24 GMT
#181
HooHa!
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
United States688 Posts
February 18 2009 00:56 GMT
#182
On February 16 2009 10:16 conCentrate9 wrote:
Joseph Smith went through the same thing you are going through now ~200 years ago. While reading The Bible, he did as James 1:5 advises and asked God which church he should join. There was no church on earth that was adequate at the time, but God used Joseph Smith as his tool in crafting his true church.

If you begin to seek truth, as Joseph Smith did, and you pray as James 1:5 advises, you will know which religion is for you.


I testify that I know that he speaks the truth.
Contact the LDS missionaries in your area, let them teach you a discussion. Listen to them, I know they are there in your area.

People can give rational convincing arguments, which can be full of intelligent things, and many doctrines and tell you everything there is to know about why they are false or why they are bad, or good. But that doesn't really let you know if YOU know.

But the only way you can KNOW for yourself is that if you pray sincerely to Heavenly Father to receive confirmation of the truth by the power of the Holy Spirit. I testify the spirit will swell your soul with a peace that is so sweet. At least to me it was that way, almost like a fire inside.
Hoo Ra!
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 02:00:43
February 18 2009 01:57 GMT
#183
On February 18 2009 09:19 BackHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 08:00 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i like how the 5 or so christians in this thread are selling christianity through such different mediums. some are selling a completely loving god and denying the fact that god damns anybody, some are selling a god powerless to reach out to at least everybody once in their life....


Heck, don't limit the inconsistencies to just Christians and how they interpret the Bible... How can they interpret it consistently when it contradicts itself:



"For I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." (Jeremiah 3:12)
"Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." (Jeremiah 17:4)


The second verse means that disobedience kindles God's anger. I don't take the word 'forever' literally, but meaning a long time, or as long as there is disobedience. Take Israel just out of Egypt. Because of their disobedience, they remain in the desert for 40 years. After that they conquer an awesome land.


"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid." (John 5:31)
"Jesus answered: Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid." (John 8:14)


Out of context. The second verse is in response to the Pharisees claiming that Jesus cannot testify on his behalf, referring to the law in Deuteronomy 19:15, however, this only refers to making a conviction. In a defense it is sufficient.

The first verse is still correct, if you bothered to read on.


"And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)
"The whole world is under control of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)


Jesus, being God, is all powerful. However, in human-form, God chose to limit his ability to that of man. The first verse is just stating a fact. The second verse is referring to the world in which we live in. Satan has influence over the world, but the ultimate victory belongs to God.


And Jesus said, "For judgement I am come into this world." (John 9:39)
"I came not to judge the world" (John 12:47)


Out of context. The Greek word used for the word 'judge' in first verse is 'kreemah' meaning sorting truth from fallacy. If you read the entire second verse, it is talking about Jesus' main purpose for coming to Earth (his first coming): to save the lost.


"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16)
"Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)


The first verse refers to doing good works and glorifying God, while the second verse warns about giving alms for the sake of being seen as good, which does not glorify God.


"Jacob said, 'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'" (Genesis 32:30)
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)


Out of context. Jacob was wrestling with an angel of God when he said this. Just like Moses saw God in the burning bush and people saw God in the pillar of fire. These are representations of God.


We should fear God (Matthew 10:28)
We should love God (Matthew 22:37)
There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18)


You are referring to two different definitions of fear. The first meaning 'reverence' or 'awe', and the second one being the more common definition.
Soli Deo gloria.
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
February 18 2009 02:01 GMT
#184
On February 18 2009 09:24 BackHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 08:35 Chromyne wrote:
Again, God had to have known, he transcends space and time. This doesn't detract from our free will. God knowing something will happen does not mean he made it happen. I don't believe the post-fall world is better than a pre-fall world. But events transpired and this is what happened.


So are you saying in the beginning God did not know how things would end up when He created the Garden of Eden. He did not know whether Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, even though He could have known if He wanted to look into the future. So He decided to limit Himself. And as a result allowed the possibility for everything to screw up and for sin to enter into the world, but then later tried to remedy it by having His Son die for the mistakes. But then still allowing countless millions of people (based on Jesus' words that narrow is the gate and few enter through) to die and go to Hell because they weren't in a relationship with Him.

If that's what you believe that's fine. However, I find that to be very cruel and unfair - regardless of what God's definition of cruelty and fairness are. The above to me just makes me think: "what an idiot God is for creating us in the first place". And yes, for millions of people (eg. in third world countries) to not have come into existence in the first place and suffer life's cruelties would be a far better alternative than being born and having to make choices in life. You presume that everyone wants choice but that is perhaps because you live in a first world country where life is relatively good. But we don't get that choice, do we - we are not born out of our own free will.


Nope, that's not what I was saying.
Soli Deo gloria.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 03:08:42
February 18 2009 02:49 GMT
#185
On February 18 2009 08:44 Chromyne wrote:
On your topic of unfairness, you're right, it's not fair. I'll be the first to admit it. Jesus being necessary for salvation is just like a VIP pass being necessary to get into a club. Except in this case the VIP pass is free and all you do is ask for it. There is a rule, and people find it unfair, but arguing about it doesn't make that VIP pass regulation go away. Ultimately, some people don't like the idea and don't go at all.

My issue isn't with the asking, it's with the finding out that this VIP pass exists in the first place is too much a matter of luck, which I've stated multiple times. I do think you've already agreed with this though, so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse. I'd be much more willing to take this pass if it was obvious that every human on earth was offered this pass (I would look down upon the people who reject it, just as you might now), but evidence appears to point to the contrary, because many people past 0 AD have clearly not been exposed to Christianity of any sort. Some of the Christians in this thread think I'm rejecting this pass for other reasons, but the primary one is the unfairness of the pass not being offered to everybody.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
February 18 2009 03:13 GMT
#186
On February 18 2009 11:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 08:44 Chromyne wrote:
On your topic of unfairness, you're right, it's not fair. I'll be the first to admit it. Jesus being necessary for salvation is just like a VIP pass being necessary to get into a club. Except in this case the VIP pass is free and all you do is ask for it. There is a rule, and people find it unfair, but arguing about it doesn't make that VIP pass regulation go away. Ultimately, some people don't like the idea and don't go at all.

My issue isn't with the asking, it's with the finding out that this VIP pass exists in the first place is too much a matter of luck, which I've stated multiple times. I do think you've already agreed with this though, so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse. I'd be much more willing to take this pass if it was obvious that every human on earth was offered this pass, but evidence appears to point to the contrary. Some of the Christians in this thread think I'm rejecting this pass for other reasons, but the primary one is the unfairness of the pass not being offered to everybody.


You use the word luck. Apart from me not believing in luck as an entity in itself, I don't think God plays around with 'luck.'

There is an assumption about people who live in regions that have never heard of Christ: they are in search of a truth, God, something beyond themselves to deliver them. Some call this knowing God through general revelation, regardless of missionaries, the gospel, or divine intervention.

However, because this usually isn't the case, and so Christians are called to share the gospel, so that everyone might hear it. And again, if you believe in an omnipotent God, why not believe in one who can communicate with peoples in remote regions regardless of the efforts of mankind?
Soli Deo gloria.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 18 2009 03:34 GMT
#187
On February 18 2009 12:13 Chromyne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 11:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 08:44 Chromyne wrote:
On your topic of unfairness, you're right, it's not fair. I'll be the first to admit it. Jesus being necessary for salvation is just like a VIP pass being necessary to get into a club. Except in this case the VIP pass is free and all you do is ask for it. There is a rule, and people find it unfair, but arguing about it doesn't make that VIP pass regulation go away. Ultimately, some people don't like the idea and don't go at all.

My issue isn't with the asking, it's with the finding out that this VIP pass exists in the first place is too much a matter of luck, which I've stated multiple times. I do think you've already agreed with this though, so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse. I'd be much more willing to take this pass if it was obvious that every human on earth was offered this pass, but evidence appears to point to the contrary. Some of the Christians in this thread think I'm rejecting this pass for other reasons, but the primary one is the unfairness of the pass not being offered to everybody.


You use the word luck. Apart from me not believing in luck as an entity in itself, I don't think God plays around with 'luck.'

There is an assumption about people who live in regions that have never heard of Christ: they are in search of a truth, God, something beyond themselves to deliver them. Some call this knowing God through general revelation, regardless of missionaries, the gospel, or divine intervention.

However, because this usually isn't the case, and so Christians are called to share the gospel, so that everyone might hear it. And again, if you believe in an omnipotent God, why not believe in one who can communicate with peoples in remote regions regardless of the efforts of mankind?

Because picking a particular god would be a big deus ex machina. You're illustrating the inconsistencies among different interpretatiions of god again. Plus, if everybody in the east and in Africa who werent exposed to Christianity had personal connections through Gods through dreams and relevations, wouldn't there be some sort of record? Like, "hey, i had this crazy dream, but i think it's some greater truth" "HOLY CRAP I HAD A SIMILAR DREAM" "ME TOO LETS WRITE ABOUT IT." seriously, the chinese were extremely good at recording stuff, they had so much astronomical data that was still useful when the west found it.

And if luck isn't the factor in where you are born, what is? Did all of Asia screw up somehow, leaving Asians to be screwed in terms of absolution until 1000 years after Christ?
posting on liquid sites in current year
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
February 18 2009 04:04 GMT
#188
On February 18 2009 12:34 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 12:13 Chromyne wrote:
On February 18 2009 11:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 08:44 Chromyne wrote:
On your topic of unfairness, you're right, it's not fair. I'll be the first to admit it. Jesus being necessary for salvation is just like a VIP pass being necessary to get into a club. Except in this case the VIP pass is free and all you do is ask for it. There is a rule, and people find it unfair, but arguing about it doesn't make that VIP pass regulation go away. Ultimately, some people don't like the idea and don't go at all.

My issue isn't with the asking, it's with the finding out that this VIP pass exists in the first place is too much a matter of luck, which I've stated multiple times. I do think you've already agreed with this though, so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse. I'd be much more willing to take this pass if it was obvious that every human on earth was offered this pass, but evidence appears to point to the contrary. Some of the Christians in this thread think I'm rejecting this pass for other reasons, but the primary one is the unfairness of the pass not being offered to everybody.


You use the word luck. Apart from me not believing in luck as an entity in itself, I don't think God plays around with 'luck.'

There is an assumption about people who live in regions that have never heard of Christ: they are in search of a truth, God, something beyond themselves to deliver them. Some call this knowing God through general revelation, regardless of missionaries, the gospel, or divine intervention.

However, because this usually isn't the case, and so Christians are called to share the gospel, so that everyone might hear it. And again, if you believe in an omnipotent God, why not believe in one who can communicate with peoples in remote regions regardless of the efforts of mankind?

Because picking a particular god would be a big deus ex machina. You're illustrating the inconsistencies among different interpretatiions of god again. Plus, if everybody in the east and in Africa who werent exposed to Christianity had personal connections through Gods through dreams and relevations, wouldn't there be some sort of record? Like, "hey, i had this crazy dream, but i think it's some greater truth" "HOLY CRAP I HAD A SIMILAR DREAM" "ME TOO LETS WRITE ABOUT IT." seriously, the chinese were extremely good at recording stuff, they had so much astronomical data that was still useful when the west found it.

And if luck isn't the factor in where you are born, what is? Did all of Asia screw up somehow, leaving Asians to be screwed in terms of absolution until 1000 years after Christ?


Who is to say there haven't been recordings? They are definitely in the Bible (which itself only concentrates on very specific events) i.e. with Paul/Saul.

When talking about luck, I am saying that that term that is loosely thrown around to represent circumstance and how they transpire are beneath a god who is omnipotent and omniscient. The finite cannot comprehend the infinite (although hand waving, still a fact).

And we come full circle. I can only present so much information, and I don't think it will ever be sufficient to fully appease your issue. One thing though: I wouldn't pass the cure just because I believe others aren't getting it. It may seem noble, but you not taking it won't change the fact that they may not get it. Of course with the introduction of evangelism, your taking it increases the chances of them receiving it.
Soli Deo gloria.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 18 2009 04:12 GMT
#189
On February 18 2009 13:04 Chromyne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 12:34 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 12:13 Chromyne wrote:
On February 18 2009 11:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 08:44 Chromyne wrote:
On your topic of unfairness, you're right, it's not fair. I'll be the first to admit it. Jesus being necessary for salvation is just like a VIP pass being necessary to get into a club. Except in this case the VIP pass is free and all you do is ask for it. There is a rule, and people find it unfair, but arguing about it doesn't make that VIP pass regulation go away. Ultimately, some people don't like the idea and don't go at all.

My issue isn't with the asking, it's with the finding out that this VIP pass exists in the first place is too much a matter of luck, which I've stated multiple times. I do think you've already agreed with this though, so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse. I'd be much more willing to take this pass if it was obvious that every human on earth was offered this pass, but evidence appears to point to the contrary. Some of the Christians in this thread think I'm rejecting this pass for other reasons, but the primary one is the unfairness of the pass not being offered to everybody.


You use the word luck. Apart from me not believing in luck as an entity in itself, I don't think God plays around with 'luck.'

There is an assumption about people who live in regions that have never heard of Christ: they are in search of a truth, God, something beyond themselves to deliver them. Some call this knowing God through general revelation, regardless of missionaries, the gospel, or divine intervention.

However, because this usually isn't the case, and so Christians are called to share the gospel, so that everyone might hear it. And again, if you believe in an omnipotent God, why not believe in one who can communicate with peoples in remote regions regardless of the efforts of mankind?

Because picking a particular god would be a big deus ex machina. You're illustrating the inconsistencies among different interpretatiions of god again. Plus, if everybody in the east and in Africa who werent exposed to Christianity had personal connections through Gods through dreams and relevations, wouldn't there be some sort of record? Like, "hey, i had this crazy dream, but i think it's some greater truth" "HOLY CRAP I HAD A SIMILAR DREAM" "ME TOO LETS WRITE ABOUT IT." seriously, the chinese were extremely good at recording stuff, they had so much astronomical data that was still useful when the west found it.

And if luck isn't the factor in where you are born, what is? Did all of Asia screw up somehow, leaving Asians to be screwed in terms of absolution until 1000 years after Christ?


Who is to say there haven't been recordings? They are definitely in the Bible (which itself only concentrates on very specific events) i.e. with Paul/Saul.

When talking about luck, I am saying that that term that is loosely thrown around to represent circumstance and how they transpire are beneath a god who is omnipotent and omniscient. The finite cannot comprehend the infinite (although hand waving, still a fact).

And we come full circle. I can only present so much information, and I don't think it will ever be sufficient to fully appease your issue. One thing though: I wouldn't pass the cure just because I believe others aren't getting it. It may seem noble, but you not taking it won't change the fact that they may not get it. Of course with the introduction of evangelism, your taking it increases the chances of them receiving it.

I don't need evidence of a few miracles, I need evidence of entire populations devoid of Christianity being reached by God, of which there is absolutely none.

Hidden clause: I could never believe in something so unfair, if it is that unfair. That's why I'm an agnostic. I'm not passing up the cure, I'm saying that the God presented with making the cure is inconsistent with the God that enabled the disease and its nature. If God had made the disease curable to everybody, then I could believe in it, because it'd make sense to me. But He hasn't and it doesn't.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 04:17:28
February 18 2009 04:16 GMT
#190
did jesus ever say that people went to hell for eternity, or did he just say that hell existed eternally ?


p.s: why isn't the bible centered around the teachings of jesus if jesus was god ?
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 18 2009 04:17 GMT
#191
On February 18 2009 13:16 travis wrote:
did jesus ever say that people went to hell for eternity, or did he just say that hell existed eternally ?


p.s: why isn't the bible centered around the teachings of jesus if jesus was god ?

the new testament completely is
posting on liquid sites in current year
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 04:26:05
February 18 2009 04:23 GMT
#192
On February 18 2009 13:04 Chromyne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 12:34 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 12:13 Chromyne wrote:
On February 18 2009 11:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 08:44 Chromyne wrote:
On your topic of unfairness, you're right, it's not fair. I'll be the first to admit it. Jesus being necessary for salvation is just like a VIP pass being necessary to get into a club. Except in this case the VIP pass is free and all you do is ask for it. There is a rule, and people find it unfair, but arguing about it doesn't make that VIP pass regulation go away. Ultimately, some people don't like the idea and don't go at all.

My issue isn't with the asking, it's with the finding out that this VIP pass exists in the first place is too much a matter of luck, which I've stated multiple times. I do think you've already agreed with this though, so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse. I'd be much more willing to take this pass if it was obvious that every human on earth was offered this pass, but evidence appears to point to the contrary. Some of the Christians in this thread think I'm rejecting this pass for other reasons, but the primary one is the unfairness of the pass not being offered to everybody.


You use the word luck. Apart from me not believing in luck as an entity in itself, I don't think God plays around with 'luck.'

There is an assumption about people who live in regions that have never heard of Christ: they are in search of a truth, God, something beyond themselves to deliver them. Some call this knowing God through general revelation, regardless of missionaries, the gospel, or divine intervention.

However, because this usually isn't the case, and so Christians are called to share the gospel, so that everyone might hear it. And again, if you believe in an omnipotent God, why not believe in one who can communicate with peoples in remote regions regardless of the efforts of mankind?

Because picking a particular god would be a big deus ex machina. You're illustrating the inconsistencies among different interpretatiions of god again. Plus, if everybody in the east and in Africa who werent exposed to Christianity had personal connections through Gods through dreams and relevations, wouldn't there be some sort of record? Like, "hey, i had this crazy dream, but i think it's some greater truth" "HOLY CRAP I HAD A SIMILAR DREAM" "ME TOO LETS WRITE ABOUT IT." seriously, the chinese were extremely good at recording stuff, they had so much astronomical data that was still useful when the west found it.

And if luck isn't the factor in where you are born, what is? Did all of Asia screw up somehow, leaving Asians to be screwed in terms of absolution until 1000 years after Christ?

When talking about luck, I am saying that that term that is loosely thrown around to represent circumstance and how they transpire are beneath a god who is omnipotent and omniscient. The finite cannot comprehend the infinite (although hand waving, still a fact).

something cant be both omniscient and omnipotent. if he is omniscient he knows what the future will be and he cannot change it, so he is not omnipotent. if he is omnipotent he could make any change he chooses to alter the course of the future, and so he cannot see what will be. and he cannot see whatever he will choose to do, because then he would be unable to make a different choice, still precluding omnipotence.
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SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 18 2009 04:26 GMT
#193
On February 18 2009 13:23 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 13:04 Chromyne wrote:
On February 18 2009 12:34 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 12:13 Chromyne wrote:
On February 18 2009 11:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 08:44 Chromyne wrote:
On your topic of unfairness, you're right, it's not fair. I'll be the first to admit it. Jesus being necessary for salvation is just like a VIP pass being necessary to get into a club. Except in this case the VIP pass is free and all you do is ask for it. There is a rule, and people find it unfair, but arguing about it doesn't make that VIP pass regulation go away. Ultimately, some people don't like the idea and don't go at all.

My issue isn't with the asking, it's with the finding out that this VIP pass exists in the first place is too much a matter of luck, which I've stated multiple times. I do think you've already agreed with this though, so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse. I'd be much more willing to take this pass if it was obvious that every human on earth was offered this pass, but evidence appears to point to the contrary. Some of the Christians in this thread think I'm rejecting this pass for other reasons, but the primary one is the unfairness of the pass not being offered to everybody.


You use the word luck. Apart from me not believing in luck as an entity in itself, I don't think God plays around with 'luck.'

There is an assumption about people who live in regions that have never heard of Christ: they are in search of a truth, God, something beyond themselves to deliver them. Some call this knowing God through general revelation, regardless of missionaries, the gospel, or divine intervention.

However, because this usually isn't the case, and so Christians are called to share the gospel, so that everyone might hear it. And again, if you believe in an omnipotent God, why not believe in one who can communicate with peoples in remote regions regardless of the efforts of mankind?

Because picking a particular god would be a big deus ex machina. You're illustrating the inconsistencies among different interpretatiions of god again. Plus, if everybody in the east and in Africa who werent exposed to Christianity had personal connections through Gods through dreams and relevations, wouldn't there be some sort of record? Like, "hey, i had this crazy dream, but i think it's some greater truth" "HOLY CRAP I HAD A SIMILAR DREAM" "ME TOO LETS WRITE ABOUT IT." seriously, the chinese were extremely good at recording stuff, they had so much astronomical data that was still useful when the west found it.

And if luck isn't the factor in where you are born, what is? Did all of Asia screw up somehow, leaving Asians to be screwed in terms of absolution until 1000 years after Christ?

When talking about luck, I am saying that that term that is loosely thrown around to represent circumstance and how they transpire are beneath a god who is omnipotent and omniscient. The finite cannot comprehend the infinite (although hand waving, still a fact).

something cant be both omniscient and omnipotent. if he is omniscient he knows what the future will be and he cannot change it, so he is not omnipotent. if he is omnipotent he could make any change he chooses to the future, and so he cannot see what will be. and he cannot see whatever he will choose to do, because then he would be unable to make a different choice, still precluding omnipotence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience#Definition

seems weasly and ptolemaic to me, but there is a semiomniscient + omnipotent god possible xD
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IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 04:26 GMT
#194
On February 18 2009 09:56 HooHa! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2009 10:16 conCentrate9 wrote:
Joseph Smith went through the same thing you are going through now ~200 years ago. While reading The Bible, he did as James 1:5 advises and asked God which church he should join. There was no church on earth that was adequate at the time, but God used Joseph Smith as his tool in crafting his true church.

If you begin to seek truth, as Joseph Smith did, and you pray as James 1:5 advises, you will know which religion is for you.


I testify that I know that he speaks the truth.
Contact the LDS missionaries in your area, let them teach you a discussion. Listen to them, I know they are there in your area.

People can give rational convincing arguments, which can be full of intelligent things, and many doctrines and tell you everything there is to know about why they are false or why they are bad, or good. But that doesn't really let you know if YOU know.

But the only way you can KNOW for yourself is that if you pray sincerely to Heavenly Father to receive confirmation of the truth by the power of the Holy Spirit. I testify the spirit will swell your soul with a peace that is so sweet. At least to me it was that way, almost like a fire inside.

will they tell him about reading off of golden tablets that no one is allowed to see by using a rock in a hat?
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Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
February 18 2009 04:27 GMT
#195
According to the Christian faith, the fact that anyone is saved is unfair. God gave mankind a rule, they broke it knowing the consequences, and God still provides a way out. That's unfair. No one should be saved.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convert you, it's just an friendly exchange of ideas and views and hopefully a bit of understanding.

Time for me to take a nap nap. Have fun with the TL night shift!
Soli Deo gloria.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 18 2009 04:31 GMT
#196
On February 18 2009 13:17 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 13:16 travis wrote:
did jesus ever say that people went to hell for eternity, or did he just say that hell existed eternally ?


p.s: why isn't the bible centered around the teachings of jesus if jesus was god ?

the new testament completely is


well, I never studied the bible much, as is probably evident from the last question I asked... but...

how did the teachings of such a simple man end up to be hundreds of pages and written by.. how many different authors? I guess it makes sense in a way, it's just that. does no one see how backwards that is?

just from personal experience of studying buddhism, i'd rather a one page lesson from buddha than an encyclopedia written by his disciples.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 04:34 GMT
#197
On February 18 2009 13:27 Chromyne wrote:
According to the Christian faith, the fact that anyone is saved is unfair. God gave mankind a rule, they broke it knowing the consequences, and God still provides a way out. That's unfair. No one should be saved.

mankind did not break a rule
two people thousands of years ago broke a rule.
why should we be held responsible for it?

moreover, god has chosen to give us a way out, one way or another. that makes the 'original sin' irrelevant. what is unfair is that he only offers the way out to some people, and there is no apparent reason as to why some people are not given the option while some are.
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Jerebread
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada115 Posts
February 18 2009 05:45 GMT
#198
On February 18 2009 13:31 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 13:17 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:16 travis wrote:
did jesus ever say that people went to hell for eternity, or did he just say that hell existed eternally ?


p.s: why isn't the bible centered around the teachings of jesus if jesus was god ?

the new testament completely is


well, I never studied the bible much, as is probably evident from the last question I asked... but...

how did the teachings of such a simple man end up to be hundreds of pages and written by.. how many different authors? I guess it makes sense in a way, it's just that. does no one see how backwards that is?

just from personal experience of studying buddhism, i'd rather a one page lesson from buddha than an encyclopedia written by his disciples.


Hi travis, if I may answer, correct me if I am wrong, but you didn't really ask a question? Is the backwardsness in regard to how simple teachings can be made into what we have as the Bible today?

If so, I hope this answers some of your questions.
-the new testament can be divided into 'two sections':
1, The 4 Gospels (biographies of Jesus' life)
2. Letters written by apostles, mainly concerning Christian living (this addresses a whole variety of issues, take your pick)

As for reading a one page lesson from buddha, Jesus 'one-up's' this by encompassing all of God's commandments into two. (Which I'm sure you have heard of in some form or another.)

Taken from Matthew 22:37-40
1. 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
2. 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

On February 18 2009 13:34 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 13:27 Chromyne wrote:
According to the Christian faith, the fact that anyone is saved is unfair. God gave mankind a rule, they broke it knowing the consequences, and God still provides a way out. That's unfair. No one should be saved.

mankind did not break a rule
two people thousands of years ago broke a rule.
why should we be held responsible for it?

moreover, god has chosen to give us a way out, one way or another. that makes the 'original sin' irrelevant. what is unfair is that he only offers the way out to some people, and there is no apparent reason as to why some people are not given the option while some are.


Hi Idra, your question is, why should you be held responsible for breaking a rule that you think you did not break?

Well, I would beg to differ. The rule in question is the one of sin. I am sure that by God's standards, we all have sinned.

Just to be clear, sin: Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

As for the unfairness, in Romans 1:20, Paul (an apostle) states that God has plainly revealed His existance through His creation, so that all people are without excuse for not believing in Him.

Sometimes, you just look at the natural wonders on Earth, don't you ask yourself, how did this come to be? Or how about the fine-tuning of universal constants that make matter and life possible and which are argued not to be solely attributable to chance. These include the values of over 20 fundamental physical constants, the relative strength of nuclear forces, electromagnetism, and gravity between fundamental particles, as well as the ratios of masses of such particles. How about the composition of our atmosphere, or the distance/size of the sun?

God also reveals himself through the conscience of a person. Where does the knowledge of right and wrong come from? We all have consciences,and we have all sinned against them. The conscience shows that God has given all people light of right and wrong,and that He is perfectly just in judging all people.

Now, I would like to ask you (Idra and SpiritoftheTunA and whoever else would like to weigh in on the topic), is your reason for not taking the 'pass' because of the 'unfairness' of the situation? That you cannot accept that an all powerfull, all knowing God would only choose to offer salvation to a select few?




IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 06:22 GMT
#199
On February 18 2009 14:45 Jerebread wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 13:34 IdrA wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:27 Chromyne wrote:
According to the Christian faith, the fact that anyone is saved is unfair. God gave mankind a rule, they broke it knowing the consequences, and God still provides a way out. That's unfair. No one should be saved.

mankind did not break a rule
two people thousands of years ago broke a rule.
why should we be held responsible for it?

moreover, god has chosen to give us a way out, one way or another. that makes the 'original sin' irrelevant. what is unfair is that he only offers the way out to some people, and there is no apparent reason as to why some people are not given the option while some are.


Hi Idra, your question is, why should you be held responsible for breaking a rule that you think you did not break?

Well, I would beg to differ. The rule in question is the one of sin. I am sure that by God's standards, we all have sinned.

Just to be clear, sin: Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

As for the unfairness, in Romans 1:20, Paul (an apostle) states that God has plainly revealed His existance through His creation, so that all people are without excuse for not believing in Him.

obviously not that plain given that no one who hasnt been contacted by missionaries and the christian world picked up on it?

Sometimes, you just look at the natural wonders on Earth, don't you ask yourself, how did this come to be? Or how about the fine-tuning of universal constants that make matter and life possible and which are argued not to be solely attributable to chance. These include the values of over 20 fundamental physical constants, the relative strength of nuclear forces, electromagnetism, and gravity between fundamental particles, as well as the ratios of masses of such particles. How about the composition of our atmosphere, or the distance/size of the sun?
are you familiar with the anthropic principle? many scientists now postulate that there are many universes, in some way or another. the anthropic principle states, basically, that people would not be here to question their existance if the conditions in their environment were not suitable for their existance. so of course the conditions in our universe seem perfectly attuned to us, we wouldnt be here if they werent. which brings us back to multiple universes (if there are any, this is just one possiblity as we still know very little about the universe), assuming they can all have different attributes, then we only could exist in one of the universes that has conditions acceptable for carbon based life to evolve.
this is more easily explained by a scaled down example that we know more about. alot of creationists point to the start of life as proof of god, since it appears to have been a very unlikely event. however, there are billions upon billions of planets in the universe, billions of which would be habitable for life like us. hence even if lightning striking the ooze and forming a dna-esque molecule is 1 in a billion, that would still happen on many planets, and as we exist ours obviously happens to be one of them, and it goes without saying that the planet we're on obviously has to have suitable conditions for us, for the same reason.
the only difference here is we know alot less about the universe than we do about our planet, so details are fuzzier, but its the same principle.

God also reveals himself through the conscience of a person. Where does the knowledge of right and wrong come from? We all have consciences,and we have all sinned against them. The conscience shows that God has given all people light of right and wrong,and that He is perfectly just in judging all people.

actually its quite easy to explain morality without god. we wouldnt exist, at least not in a civilized state, without morality. early humans, like modern humans, were not top of the heap physically in the animal kingdom. we werent gonna outrun or outfight a lion on the savanna. we survived because of superior mental traits, which includes the ability to cooperate with other people and work together to mutual benefit. morality helps this kind of cooperation by allowing people to live and work together, so natural selection chooses towards genetic makeups that encourage 'moral' behavior. if your species lives in family groups and you all work together and help each other (ie not killing and stealing from one another, plus altruistic behavior) then your genes are going to become more common in the gene pool, because on average you and people who behave like you will be more succesful than people who cant work and live with others. if you interact through the same people throughout your life, as you would in a species that lives in small groups, like early humans did, then its to your benefit to be a 'good person'. you're not gonna make enemies who want to kill you, in fact by acting altruistically you make friends who will help you in return, in expecation of continued mutual benefit.
and how do you explain the variances of morality among people of different cultures if god instilled a base sense of right and wrong in our brains? if you argue, as many do, that it is not in our brains but was given to us through christ and the bible and whatnot, how come we do not hold everything in the bible as moral now? in fact some of it is patently immoral, by anyones standards. not the least being the fact that god would hold modern humans responsible for the acts of adam and eve.

Now, I would like to ask you (Idra and SpiritoftheTunA and whoever else would like to weigh in on the topic), is your reason for not taking the 'pass' because of the 'unfairness' of the situation? That you cannot accept that an all powerfull, all knowing God would only choose to offer salvation to a select few?
im merely choosing not to argue the base points of this discussion because they cannot be argued with people of faith, i believe there is no god, heaven, or hell and so the entire thing is irrelevant to me. i argue the more debateable parts of this in hopes that undecided people reading this will see how illogical your stance is and so be persuaded not to join you.

there are also a few base problems with your arguments. first off, you automatically assume god takes responsibility wherever you cant think of another solution. what makes god the default option? theres alot of stuff we dont understand, especially when it comes to the universal constants argument. its quite likely neither of us are right, and theres a solution we cant even imagine. this is the danger of religion. we admit we dont really know whats going on, so we keep looking for understanding. you tell us to sit down and shut up and praise god cuz he did it. well saying god did it doesnt teach us anything. you can bask in your ignorance, stop trying to drag others down with you.

in fact, saying god did it is even worse than not having an answer, because now we have to look at god. what is god? how did he attune the universal constants? and the biggie, if god made the universe, who made god? most arguments about the universe requiring a creator rest on the idea that there has to be an initial cause and that complexity does not arise from simplicity. well, then what is god's initial cause? and a creating god would most certainly be more complex than what hes creating, by that logic, so he could not arise from nothing either? these are generally avoided by saying god transcends space and time and whatnot, however at the big bang the universe was contained within a singularity, and we do not fully understand the conditions inside singularities, the laws of time and space break down in them, meaning we have no way of talking about what could or could not have happened to cause the start of the universe.
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BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 18 2009 06:29 GMT
#200
^

Just because you can't understand God and the matters related to Him doesn't mean it's unlikely He exists.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 06:37:01
February 18 2009 06:33 GMT
#201
die in a pit
make a rational argument or get out

btw burden of proof is on you for spaghetti monster reasons. its unlikely god exists until you demonstrate otherwise.
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Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 18 2009 06:38 GMT
#202
On February 18 2009 14:45 Jerebread wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 13:31 travis wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:17 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:16 travis wrote:
did jesus ever say that people went to hell for eternity, or did he just say that hell existed eternally ?


p.s: why isn't the bible centered around the teachings of jesus if jesus was god ?

the new testament completely is


well, I never studied the bible much, as is probably evident from the last question I asked... but...

how did the teachings of such a simple man end up to be hundreds of pages and written by.. how many different authors? I guess it makes sense in a way, it's just that. does no one see how backwards that is?

just from personal experience of studying buddhism, i'd rather a one page lesson from buddha than an encyclopedia written by his disciples.


Hi travis, if I may answer, correct me if I am wrong, but you didn't really ask a question? Is the backwardsness in regard to how simple teachings can be made into what we have as the Bible today?

If so, I hope this answers some of your questions.
-the new testament can be divided into 'two sections':
1, The 4 Gospels (biographies of Jesus' life)
2. Letters written by apostles, mainly concerning Christian living (this addresses a whole variety of issues, take your pick)

As for reading a one page lesson from buddha, Jesus 'one-up's' this by encompassing all of God's commandments into two. (Which I'm sure you have heard of in some form or another.)


Taken from Matthew 22:37-40
1. 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
2. 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'



Thank you for the reply. I took the liberty of bolding some of your post (in my quote).

I guess my question is basically, "why is this not the focus of christianity?"
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 18 2009 06:39 GMT
#203
On February 18 2009 15:33 IdrA wrote:
die in a pit
make a rational argument or get out

btw burden of proof is on you for spaghetti monster reasons. its unlikely god exists until you demonstrate otherwise.

Personal experience trumps physical evidence
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 06:41 GMT
#204
for you maybe
dont expect anyone else to buy your bullshit cuz you had a hallucination
and this is a forum, we're having a discussion, so until you have something that holds weight in a discussion kindly fuck off.
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Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 18 2009 06:41 GMT
#205
On February 18 2009 15:39 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 15:33 IdrA wrote:
die in a pit
make a rational argument or get out

btw burden of proof is on you for spaghetti monster reasons. its unlikely god exists until you demonstrate otherwise.

Personal experience trumps physical evidence


even though Idra made great posts imo - I definitely have to agree with this.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 06:44:23
February 18 2009 06:42 GMT
#206
On February 18 2009 15:41 IdrA wrote:
for you maybe
dont expect anyone else to buy your bullshit cuz you had a hallucination
and this is a forum, we're having a discussion, so until you have something that holds weight in a discussion kindly fuck off.


for you as well. if and when

im not saying you're wrong and im not saying that personal experience constitutes objective evidence for or against anything

but it really doesn't matter when we are each our own universe. the entirety of our lives comes down to our own individual experiences. it doesn't even have to make sense
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 06:42 GMT
#207
i, personally, have not experienced anything supernatural and therefore nothing you can say will convince me that i am wrong.

there, logical discourse just died. why are you posting here?
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IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 06:44 GMT
#208
On February 18 2009 15:42 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 15:41 IdrA wrote:
for you maybe
dont expect anyone else to buy your bullshit cuz you had a hallucination
and this is a forum, we're having a discussion, so until you have something that holds weight in a discussion kindly fuck off.


for you as well. if and when

unless he makes me stupid in the process, if god shows up in my head i wont expect that to make anyone ELSE believe in him.
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Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 18 2009 06:47 GMT
#209
maybe, but you'll probably think it's more likely that god could show up in another person's head as well.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 06:49 GMT
#210
indeed i would
it still wouldnt affect other people in the slightest.
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Lachrymose
Profile Joined February 2008
Australia1928 Posts
February 18 2009 06:55 GMT
#211
1: if god allowed us free will so we could chose to love him rather than programming our love for him into our creation isnt that really selfish? we stood to lose nothing from never having the option of rejecting god. god stood to lose the feeling of have others love him of their own will. he chose the option which was better for him at the expense of mankind.

2: why is faith universally considered virtuous in religious circles? if we know we can only sanely 'choose' to love god therefore we arent making a choice at all? the very idea choosing to believe in the uncertain...just 'cause...makes no sense. man tells me to believe in god and yet man is a liar and a sinner, how can i have faith in him? god tells me to believe in him and then i know, how can i have faith, how can i choose to love and accept him if i know i have to. faith does not function.

~
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
February 18 2009 06:57 GMT
#212
seek no more my friends, I have the perfect religion for you, it harms no one, and worships no god, but it is in fact a religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jediism



May the force be with you, young padawan.
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SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 07:08:55
February 18 2009 06:59 GMT
#213
To add a counter against the fine-tuning principle, which is one of the cruxes of I.D., the fact that the 20 fundamental constants needed for matter to hold together like this so well may not be a coincidence. The inflationary period proposed by Alan Guth (which is generally accepted now, with different flavors existing because we don't have enough observational data to rule some versions out) awhile back may have been a vacuum nucleation event, in which the fundamental constants were changing while the entirety of the universe was moving to a lower potential energy state. The constants that exist such that matter can exist on mass scales as they do today may very well have been settled upon due to their low potential energy states (matter has more potential energy than pure energy), so in order to fall into the lowest potential energy states, the constants would have tuned themselves to the values such that the most matter could exist (while still not violating the second law of thermodynamics). So that explains why the constants are so good towards the end of matter existing, and the anthropic principle IdrA mentions explains why we feel so special that we exist here. If we existed on the other side of the universe, we'd feel just as special, cuz over there, it wouldn't be "the other side of the universe" to itself. By the way, scientists have been able to reproduce the reactions that change carbon/nitrogen compounds -> amino acids and amino acids -> peptide compounds (by a process imitating an asteroid hitting earth). Just a few more steps and we have self-replicating RNA. (otherwise known as rudimentary life)

Again, just like TechniQ, don't pretend to know physics to advance your argument. His BS about the big bang was wrong and your BS about the 20 constants could be very wrong as well.
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FragKrag
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States11552 Posts
February 18 2009 07:01 GMT
#214
Slayerism should be a religion

*TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 18 2009 07:12 GMT
#215
On February 18 2009 15:41 IdrA wrote:
for you maybe
dont expect anyone else to buy your bullshit cuz you had a hallucination
and this is a forum, we're having a discussion, so until you have something that holds weight in a discussion kindly fuck off.

I never said you had to buy into it, nor am I trying to convince you.

Lmao @ "hallucination"

No need to be a prick, IdrA.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 07:22:44
February 18 2009 07:19 GMT
#216
?
you were being condescending because i dont believe in a big invisible man in the sky
rofl
of course im gonna be a prick.

if you arent trying to convince anyone why are you posting

if someone says vishnu talks to them in their head, or appears to them, what are you gonna think? either its a hallucination, or fabrication of their mind in some way, or vishnu is really communicating with them. if you think its a hallucination, what makes it different from your experience? if you think its real, how can both gods coexist given that yours says there arent any others?
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BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 18 2009 07:30 GMT
#217
On February 18 2009 16:19 IdrA wrote:
?
you were being condescending because i dont believe in a big invisible man in the sky
rofl
of course im gonna be a prick.

if you arent trying to convince anyone why are you posting

if someone says vishnu talks to them in their head, or appears to them, what are you gonna think? either its a hallucination, or fabrication of their mind in some way, or vishnu is really communicating with them. if you think its a hallucination, what makes it different from your experience? if you think its real, how can both gods coexist given that yours says there arent any others?

I don't know how in the world you interpreted what I said as being condescending but I didn't mean it that way at all.

I'm not trying to convince anyone because I know that discussing religion doesn't work at all, much less on the internet. I'm just inserting my input, as are you. Just because I believe in God doesn't mean I'm a narrow-minded individual who think that he's better than everyone else and yells out "you're going to hell for your sins!!!" whenever someone disagrees with me. I know from a non-believer's perspective that it's hard to buy into what a Christian says and that arguments and yelling won't change anything.

Plus, I never said anything about a hallucination. I've never had one before and no one I know has had one either. As to your example, I honestly don't know.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 07:36 GMT
#218
Just because you can't understand God and the matters related to Him doesn't mean it's unlikely He exists.

certainly sounds condescending to me

except you dont have any input, whereas my input is something that can be held to logic analysis and so can be discussed. so you are worthless here, i am not.

you did not say hallucination, i did. you said 'personal experience' which generally means you have had 'personal contact' with god, which means you have had a hallucination or something similar in which you believe you have seen or spoken to god or jesus. if 'personal experience' meant something else im curious as to what it meant.
if it did indeed mean contact with god then the point i posed about vishnu still stands, and understandably you have no response. that often happens when you hold an illogical stance.
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3clipse
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Canada2555 Posts
February 18 2009 07:39 GMT
#219
Do you have to count to ten and think of calm, flowing streams whenever you meet a fundementalist Protoss IdrA?
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 18 2009 07:41 GMT
#220
On February 18 2009 16:39 3clipse wrote:
Do you have to count to ten and think of calm, flowing streams whenever you meet a fundementalist Protoss IdrA?

rofl

"that dt drop was god acting through my very fingers, please don't call me a faggot"
posting on liquid sites in current year
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 07:44 GMT
#221
On February 18 2009 16:39 3clipse wrote:
Do you have to count to ten and think of calm, flowing streams whenever you meet a fundementalist Protoss IdrA?

fundamentalists arent smart enough to choose protoss
though neither am i apparently
guess its cuz im technically agnostic
the ones whove figured out a way to prove god really doesnt exist, theyre the dt droppers
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BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 07:46:14
February 18 2009 07:44 GMT
#222
On February 18 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
Just because you can't understand God and the matters related to Him doesn't mean it's unlikely He exists.

certainly sounds condescending to me

except you dont have any input, whereas my input is something that can be held to logic analysis and so can be discussed. so you are worthless here, i am not.

you did not say hallucination, i did. you said 'personal experience' which generally means you have had 'personal contact' with god, which means you have had a hallucination or something similar in which you believe you have seen or spoken to god or jesus. if 'personal experience' meant something else im curious as to what it meant.
if it did indeed mean contact with god then the point i posed about vishnu still stands, and understandably you have no response. that often happens when you hold an illogical stance.

Just because that's what you interpreted doesn't mean that's how it really is. I'm only stating that simply because you don't understand God's ways doesn't mean he can't possibly exist. Just because I don't understand how a semi-conductor works doesn't mean it's impossible that such a thing could exist.

By personal experience I mean going to church

BTW: I only have protoss because I prefer a corsair over a vulture or lurker (actually lurker doesn't sound like too bad of an idea hmm)
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 07:53 GMT
#223
On February 18 2009 16:44 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote:
Just because you can't understand God and the matters related to Him doesn't mean it's unlikely He exists.

certainly sounds condescending to me

except you dont have any input, whereas my input is something that can be held to logic analysis and so can be discussed. so you are worthless here, i am not.

you did not say hallucination, i did. you said 'personal experience' which generally means you have had 'personal contact' with god, which means you have had a hallucination or something similar in which you believe you have seen or spoken to god or jesus. if 'personal experience' meant something else im curious as to what it meant.
if it did indeed mean contact with god then the point i posed about vishnu still stands, and understandably you have no response. that often happens when you hold an illogical stance.

Just because that's what you interpreted doesn't mean that's how it really is. I'm only stating that simply because you don't understand God's ways doesn't mean he can't possibly exist. Just because I don't understand how a semi-conductor works doesn't mean it's impossible that such a thing could exist.

By personal experience I mean going to church

BTW: I only have protoss because I prefer a corsair over a vulture or lurker (actually lurker doesn't sound like too bad of an idea hmm)

i didnt say he couldnt possibly exist. like i said earlier, spaghetti monster argument. i guess maybe you havent heard of it so ill explain quick. anything given a certain set of properties COULD exist, for example an all powerful spaghetti monster who chooses to hide his existence from us. can you prove such a thing does not exist? does that mean its existence merits consideration when i have no valid reason to suggest it does? so yes, god might exist. i cant prove he doesnt, that doesnt mean he does exist or even that hes likely to exist to any extent worth even thinking about.

how exactly did going to church convince you of gods existence or allow you to understand him?
i have gone to church, my parents raised me christian. listening to stories and eating crackers did not impress me.
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BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 18 2009 07:58 GMT
#224
On February 18 2009 16:53 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 16:44 BanZu wrote:
On February 18 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote:
Just because you can't understand God and the matters related to Him doesn't mean it's unlikely He exists.

certainly sounds condescending to me

except you dont have any input, whereas my input is something that can be held to logic analysis and so can be discussed. so you are worthless here, i am not.

you did not say hallucination, i did. you said 'personal experience' which generally means you have had 'personal contact' with god, which means you have had a hallucination or something similar in which you believe you have seen or spoken to god or jesus. if 'personal experience' meant something else im curious as to what it meant.
if it did indeed mean contact with god then the point i posed about vishnu still stands, and understandably you have no response. that often happens when you hold an illogical stance.

Just because that's what you interpreted doesn't mean that's how it really is. I'm only stating that simply because you don't understand God's ways doesn't mean he can't possibly exist. Just because I don't understand how a semi-conductor works doesn't mean it's impossible that such a thing could exist.

By personal experience I mean going to church

BTW: I only have protoss because I prefer a corsair over a vulture or lurker (actually lurker doesn't sound like too bad of an idea hmm)

i didnt say he couldnt possibly exist. like i said earlier, spaghetti monster argument. i guess maybe you havent heard of it so ill explain quick. anything given a certain set of properties COULD exist, for example an all powerful spaghetti monster who chooses to hide his existence from us. can you prove such a thing does not exist? does that mean its existence merits consideration when i have no valid reason to suggest it does? so yes, god might exist. i cant prove he doesnt, that doesnt mean he does exist or even that hes likely to exist to any extent worth even thinking about.

how exactly did going to church convince you of gods existence or allow you to understand him?
i have gone to church, my parents raised me christian. listening to stories and eating crackers did not impress me.

Sorry, I guess I need to eat my own words, but I more than likely interpreted what you said incorrectly as well.

To be honest, growing up in the church life is a strong factor along with family and friends. When you grow up into a life like mine it's hard to just say forget it, this is all just a waste of time. I also happen to enjoy going to church. And I don't mean this strictly in a worldly way as in it's fun hanging out, playing games, and doing things we have have in common (although we do do this as well). What I mean specifically by personal experience would be the praying, the singing, the prophesying/sharing, and reading the word along with many other things. I know that me saying that is not enough to convince anyone even the slightest bit but that's why I'm firm in my faith.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 08:00 GMT
#225
so feeling like you're part of a group and sharing something in common with them makes you, a social creature, happy
shocker
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BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 18 2009 08:03 GMT
#226
On February 18 2009 17:00 IdrA wrote:
so feeling like you're part of a group and sharing something in common with them makes you, a social creature, happy
shocker

I thought I specifically said other than in a worldly (which would include socializing) sense :\
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 08:11:22
February 18 2009 08:06 GMT
#227
On February 18 2009 15:33 IdrA wrote:
btw burden of proof is on you for spaghetti monster reasons. its unlikely god exists until you demonstrate otherwise.

I don't see how you can say this. How is one philosophy inherently better than another? (you can't logically say it is unless you state axioms)

You can't use the scientific method in this situation, because it is not practical. When dealing with world views, you cannot (1) concretely prove everything, especially within your lifetime, or (2) have the exact same evidence as someone else.

Personal feelings are an absolutely valid form of evidence here, at this fundamental level. Even when you read Scientific American, your personal gut instincts that you aren't simply being lied to by that magazine must be used in order to even try to use the scientific method. However, unless you prove all of science to yourself, with all original experiments, and assume what your eyes tell you is correct, you are not being completely concrete.

There is no way to know you are not in some type of cruel holographic world. What I'm saying is that when it comes to your own personal awareness about the world around you, things become murky. Just because you are sure of something (as you pointed out) does not mean you are right. In this situation rational thought, critical thinking, intuition, and even dreams must be used.

Your evidence for the world is not the same as my evidence, which is different from other poster's evidence. It is true, there is only one objective truth. However, you can't say "this is the default, you must convince me of otherwise". There is not default. Occam's razor applies only if you admit all evidence, and even then, it is not a proof, actually it is self referencing more than anything. Godel's theorem actually is proven and it states that things are actually infinity complex when logic is used.

The scientific method is based on axioms, and builds up. It essentially assumes you know the truth from the beginning, and you build up with additional evidence. However it is not practical to use except for institutional settings where you can "stand on the shoulders of giants". However, in your own, personal, reality there is no one to stand on. Everything is potentially a lie. You obviously don't believe in religion, however people who have grown up with it are absolutely convinced it is true because of the axioms they start with. Essentially you have no starting place except a number of lies. This includes all philosophies, perhaps one of which is correct, but there is no "default".

The only other method is to assume everything is potentially true unless proven otherwise. This is more effective because it is much easier for a single fact to disprove a thousand lies than to debate endlessly (such as this thread) about a single lie which seems to be supported by a thousand facts. You can argue about them till you die. I prefer the other approach, and the exact method to apply this analysis I posted at the beginning of this thread.
Do you really want chat rooms?
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 08:08 GMT
#228
saying its something else doesnt mean it is
the singing,sharing, reading the word is all done as part of a group right?

if its the praying that brings us back to direct communication with god and the vishnu comparison. unless you get a kick out of talking to someone with no recognizable response, and if anything that would logically drive someone away from religion.
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BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 08:22:49
February 18 2009 08:20 GMT
#229
On February 18 2009 17:08 IdrA wrote:
saying its something else doesnt mean it is
the singing,sharing, reading the word is all done as part of a group right?

if its the praying that brings us back to direct communication with god and the vishnu comparison. unless you get a kick out of talking to someone with no recognizable response, and if anything that would logically drive someone away from religion.

Yes, but in actuality it's fellowship through the spirit.

Do you know anyone that would enjoy reading the Bible for entertainment purposes? Or sharing their testimonies/what they learned because they like attention or some other gain?

The only thing I can think of as being for outward purposes is that some people might enjoy the singing strictly for singing.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 08:44:48
February 18 2009 08:44 GMT
#230
On February 18 2009 17:06 fight_or_flight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 15:33 IdrA wrote:
btw burden of proof is on you for spaghetti monster reasons. its unlikely god exists until you demonstrate otherwise.

I don't see how you can say this. How is one philosophy inherently better than another? (you can't logically say it is unless you state axioms)

You can't use the scientific method in this situation, because it is not practical. When dealing with world views, you cannot (1) concretely prove everything, especially within your lifetime, or (2) have the exact same evidence as someone else.

Personal feelings are an absolutely valid form of evidence here, at this fundamental level. Even when you read Scientific American, your personal gut instincts that you aren't simply being lied to by that magazine must be used in order to even try to use the scientific method. However, unless you prove all of science to yourself, with all original experiments, and assume what your eyes tell you is correct, you are not being completely concrete.

theoretically anyone can go out there and test the information supplied in scientific american because the ideas presented by science are based on experimentation and information gathered from the real world. i know from limited experience that this is valid, and it is supported on a larger scale by peer-review systems, where all the blood thirsty scientists go around checking each other trying to fuck one another over in order to gain personal acclaim. so either the entire scientific community is scamming us and no one has managed to catch on, or it is reasonably trustworthy. so yes, i do take things on 'faith' but it is a faith founded in reason and experience. objectively it is indeed more valid than faith in god, which is founded on absolutely nothing.

also, science is based on rationality. a scientist can sit there and explain how he came to his conclusions and i can look at what he says and see if it makes sense to me. natural selection for instance, its proven, demonstrateable, observable fact that organisms reproduce and pass on their genetic code to offspring, and that sometimes there are mutations that cause slight variation in the code. now, given that, evolution by natural selection makes perfect sense. we know animals have offspring that can have traits slightly different from their own, but in general the offspring will have the same genes as the parent. it makes perfect sense that if an unusual offspring was born with a trait that made them better suited for their environment they would be more likely to survive than their competitors, and so would be able to have and raise more offspring, who have the same genes as them. extrapolated over time it is only logical that this new subspecies would come to replace the old one. nothing but logical conclusions starting from an observable fact. no leaps of faith, beyond trusting a microscope.
whereas with creation; god did it. how? fuck you hes god. i cant analyze that, i cant look at observable facts the creationist started with and follow his conclusions to see if they make sense. it is nothing but a leap of faith.


There is no way to know you are not in some type of cruel holographic world. What I'm saying is that when it comes to your own personal awareness about the world around you, things become murky. Just because you are sure of something (as you pointed out) does not mean you are right. In this situation rational though, critical thinking, intuition, and even dreams must be used.

indeed. what line of rational thought or critical thinking leads you to a religious conclusion? as for dreams, rational thought and critical thinking lead me to discredit them as entirely trustworthy sources of information as i know they are not entirely representative of reality.

maybe we are living in the matrix, but i have no reason to believe that. so i will content myself to think about the universe i know, even if it is a hologram.

Your evidence for the world is not the same as my evidence, which is different from other poster's evidence. It is true, there is only one objective truth. However, you can't say "this is the default, you must convince me of otherwise". There is not default. Occam's razor doesn't applies only if you admit all evidence, and even then, it is not a proof, actually it is self referencing more than anything. Godel's theorem actually is proven and it states that things are actually infinity complex when logic is used.
ive always found the whole objective/subjective truth thing rather flawed. maybe we see the world in different ways, but theyre still the same world, its consistantly different. the color i see as orange may look to you like the color i see as blue. but we always see the colors in the same way, it always looks orange to me and always 'blue' to you. so i when i tell you to click the orange button, you click the one i mean, even if we dont see the same thing. so no, in the end we all have the same evidence. it may not look the same to them, but relative to the world as they know it it operates the same, because the evidence for all of us is drawn from the same universe, the same source of information.

The scientific method is based on axioms, and builds up. It essentially assumes you know the truth from the beginning, and you build up with additional evidence. However it is not practical to use except for institutional settings where you can "stand on the shoulders of giants". However, in your own, personal, reality there is no one to stand on. Everything is potentially a lie. You obviously don't believe in religion, however people who have grown up with it are absolutely convinced it is true because of the axioms they start with. Essentially you have no starting place except a number of lies. This includes all philosophies, perhaps one of which is correct, but there is no "default".
if i had the time and the desire i could go back and check the work of every shoulder i am standing on. again, due to limited personal experience and trust in science (trust placed in them by rationality and experience, not by baseless faith) i accept this without actually checking it because it is not practically feasible to do so. a religious person can not say the same thing. he is not choosing to not go back and check the rationale that led to religious beliefs, because there is none. it must be accepted on faith, or not accepted at all.


The only other method is to assume everything is potentially true unless proven otherwise. This is more effective because it is much easier for a single fact to disprove a thousand lies than to debate endlessly (such as this thread) about a single truth which seems to be supported by a thousand lies. You can argue about them till you die. I prefer the other approach, and the exact method to apply this analysis I posted at the beginning of this thread.
it is not more effective simply because it is 'simpler' to disprove something than to prove it. for instance, there have been millions of religions throughout human history, a vast portion of which have forbidden the worship of false gods (any but their own), meaning that, at best, only one can be true. your suggestion forces us to accept all of those millions, many of which are logically impossible to disprove simply because of their nature, until we disprove them.

serious question, are you a troll?
ive seen you make posts like this before and it really feels like you're just playing devils advocate
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IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 08:45 GMT
#231
On February 18 2009 17:20 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 17:08 IdrA wrote:
saying its something else doesnt mean it is
the singing,sharing, reading the word is all done as part of a group right?

if its the praying that brings us back to direct communication with god and the vishnu comparison. unless you get a kick out of talking to someone with no recognizable response, and if anything that would logically drive someone away from religion.

Yes, but in actuality it's fellowship through the spirit.

Do you know anyone that would enjoy reading the Bible for entertainment purposes? Or sharing their testimonies/what they learned because they like attention or some other gain?

The only thing I can think of as being for outward purposes is that some people might enjoy the singing strictly for singing.

actually its just that people like belonging to a group, especially one they think has a higher purpose.

but ya tell yourself whatever you want.
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BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 18 2009 08:52 GMT
#232
Just wondering IdrA, what's your background in regards to religion?
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 08:56 GMT
#233
i think i said earlier, i was raised christian
went to church and sunday school until i was 12 or 13, accepted everything cuz my parents said so. then they kinda stopped forcing me to go tochurch, cuz they werent really religious themselves they just felt i should be exposed to it. i thought about it and there seemed to be no reason to actually believe any of the stuff i had learned about, so now im technically an agnostic, but for all intents and purpose, an atheist.
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Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 18 2009 11:43 GMT
#234
--- Nuked ---
ruXxar
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Norway5669 Posts
February 18 2009 11:55 GMT
#235
I think a huge part of why people follow religion is because they are afraid of what will happen to them after death.
They don't want their spirit or soul(if there is one) to be tortured in hell for all eternity(and honestly, who would?).
So they follow what the masses do, because what the majority of people are doing can't be wrong.
Or they follow the religion they have been taught by their parents.

Of course we can't know whether there is life after death as we are alive, so people think : why should I upset god(or whoever you belive in) when there is even the smallest of chance that you will be forever trapped in hell.

On the opposite side we have the people with the view that when we are dead our conciousness will just seize to exist, or that what happens to us after death has no connection to how we acted in this life.

It ultimately comes down to what you want to belive in.
Is this life all we have, or is there something beyond(which is connected to how good/bad we acted in this life)?

On February 18 2009 09:19 Chromyne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 08:56 ruXxar wrote:
So tell me then Chromyne, what makes you so certain that the Bible has not been altered, but that the Qur'an has?
What makes you think that the Bible in some way is more right than the Qur'an?(which is what you MUST think, or else you'd be a muslim)

Have you yourself read the Qur'an and checked up on every historical event?
Have you done the same for the bible?

Why should the events that took place in the bible be any more legit than those taking place in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an is alot younger than the Bible, and from what I've read, it has no alterations made to it. But Of course, I can not go back in time and prove that, nor can you do the same for the Bible.

But if we follow the train of thought that we are to trust the stories and writings of humans that lived before, than the Qur'an should be just as valid as the Bible, since both events are backed up by recordings of the people at that time.

How much do you actually know about the Qur'an and what is written therein?


It is clear that anything I say in reply will be insufficient in your eyes. You want absolute certainty with no room for any doubt. That's more certainty than knowing the chair you sit on will hold you up, or that your life won't end any second (or else you would never plan for the future). This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's not possible (as all the aggressive Atheists have already stated multiple times) and I'm quite sure you know it is, so I don't know what you're getting at because that conclusion has already been made.

I made a claim that the fact that the Bible refers to more falsifiable facts (names, places, events) than the Qur'an, that it is put in a better light. However, just looking at text, it should be just as valid as the Bible.

Now [for the sake of this illustration] you have two valid alternatives, but they are contradictory. Islam appears to be a continuation of Christianity as it affirms [parts of] the Bible, but denies many core aspects such as the crucifixion of Jesus, and the nature of God. This sort of pick and choose doesn't bode well with me. We could go into the text and start a whole 'contradictions' debate, but this is just rhetorical head games and won't further discussion.


It seems to me that you don't have any sound argument as to why the Bible is right, except for that it "came first", and therefore should have more merit.
Why should it be more right that Jesus is God's son and was crucified, rather than not, as described in the Qur'an.

How can you be sure that God did not show himself again, as described in the Qur'an?

What is it that makes you belive the Bible is right? I want to know your reasons.

Are you contempt with only having read the Bible(assumption), and not explored other religions?

Maybe there are some religions out there that makes better sense to you.
Why be so narrow minded and locked to one thing.

I want to know your reasons.

Why do you personally have such strong belief in Christianity?
"alright guys im claiming my role im actually politician I can manipulate a persons vote during the day phase, used it on clarity last phase and forced him to vote for HF. full role name donald trump, definitely town sided". - EBH
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 12:03:56
February 18 2009 12:03 GMT
#236
oops someone posted before me
@mada_jiang

your post is quite depressing
do you think we ever would have discovered electromagnetic waves in the first place if everyone was like you? whats this? natural phenomenon? praise the lord! lets go sacrifice a goat instead of trying to comprehend something beyond our pitiful human existence!

on what basis can you claim that something MUST have designed the atom? or that god was required for anything else you mentioned?
by the way, rather despicable that you mention that you're a science major immediately before making those claims to try to give yourself some air of credibility.

and you realize that if you were born in the middle east you would believe allah was your father with all your heart and soul right?
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Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 18 2009 12:07 GMT
#237
--- Nuked ---
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 12:09 GMT
#238
non-christians asked their deity and got just as clear an answer
whats up with that?
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ruXxar
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Norway5669 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 12:29:27
February 18 2009 12:24 GMT
#239
Idra said :

and you realize that if you were born in the middle east you would believe allah was your father with all your heart and soul right?


Very very strong point.(Not sarcastic)

If you had grown up in a muslim country you would definitely be a muslim yourself and believing in the Qur'an and muhammand.
"alright guys im claiming my role im actually politician I can manipulate a persons vote during the day phase, used it on clarity last phase and forced him to vote for HF. full role name donald trump, definitely town sided". - EBH
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 18 2009 12:40 GMT
#240
--- Nuked ---
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 18 2009 12:45 GMT
#241
--- Nuked ---
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 14:57 GMT
#242
On February 18 2009 21:40 Mada_Jiang wrote:
For some of who has directed comments and questions at me, forgive me if I don't respond. I speak to everyone here how I would speak to someone if I was face to face with them, and I try my best to be an encouragement to who ever I can. That is why if you are aiming comments at me as a personal attack, to vent your frustration, to make a statement of aggression based on your assumptions, or to ask me a question that you clearly don't want an answer from, then I wont be responding. To you I pray that peace be with you.

If you have a genuine question, or some thoughts you would like to share with me I would be more than happy to fellowship with you. Post your thoughts here, PM me or email me, or if you are a Sydney-sider, I'd be more than happy to meet for a coffee during business hours ^.^ I hope that we can be an encouragement and an edification to each other.

If your language of preference is Chinese or Japanese please also let me know. ^.^

on what do you base your assertion that the atom, or anything else in nature, requires a designer?
that is an honest question. it was an honest question the first time too.
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IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 18 2009 15:02 GMT
#243
On February 18 2009 21:09 IdrA wrote:
non-christians asked their deity and got just as clear an answer
whats up with that?

that is a valid, honest question as well.
all deeply religious people of all denominations share your faith, what makes you right? and you cant rely on 'knowing your god' because everyone else can claim the same thing.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Jerebread
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada115 Posts
February 18 2009 16:19 GMT
#244
On February 18 2009 15:38 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 14:45 Jerebread wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:31 travis wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:17 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:16 travis wrote:
did jesus ever say that people went to hell for eternity, or did he just say that hell existed eternally ?


p.s: why isn't the bible centered around the teachings of jesus if jesus was god ?

the new testament completely is


well, I never studied the bible much, as is probably evident from the last question I asked... but...

how did the teachings of such a simple man end up to be hundreds of pages and written by.. how many different authors? I guess it makes sense in a way, it's just that. does no one see how backwards that is?

just from personal experience of studying buddhism, i'd rather a one page lesson from buddha than an encyclopedia written by his disciples.


Hi travis, if I may answer, correct me if I am wrong, but you didn't really ask a question? Is the backwardsness in regard to how simple teachings can be made into what we have as the Bible today?

If so, I hope this answers some of your questions.
-the new testament can be divided into 'two sections':
1, The 4 Gospels (biographies of Jesus' life)
2. Letters written by apostles, mainly concerning Christian living (this addresses a whole variety of issues, take your pick)

As for reading a one page lesson from buddha, Jesus 'one-up's' this by encompassing all of God's commandments into two. (Which I'm sure you have heard of in some form or another.)


Taken from Matthew 22:37-40
1. 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
2. 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'



Thank you for the reply. I took the liberty of bolding some of your post (in my quote).

I guess my question is basically, "why is this not the focus of christianity?"


Hi Travis,

I believe that is the focus of Christianity (The two commandments. I must say here that if one thinks about it, it does encompass pretty much everything possible. 1. Relationship with God and 2. Relationships with others.).

If this is not what you percieve Christianity to be about, may I ask what do you think the focus has shifted to?
NeVeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1352 Posts
February 18 2009 20:07 GMT
#245
On February 17 2009 15:24 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 15:23 Mada_Jiang wrote:
For all those who are reading or contributing to this thread, I strongly encourage you to communicate with God him self and get your answers. If he is a loving father he wouldn't leave you in the dark. Rather than reading through how each individual think about religion, step away from that and ask God to reveal him self to you.

For those of you who are getting all worked up arguing with each other and treating each other like you would never do to each other in real life.... I have one suggestion:

Rather than debating over whether heat waves exists, put your self there and feel the heat it self. Once again my email is oni_jiang@hotmail.com. I wont tell you what I think, if you are interested, I will share with you my experiences with God.

I pray that peace will be with you. ^.^

you are stupid. i will not explicate further because you would simply disregard it. peace to you too though.


Wow, dude. The guy offers his hand out to everyone here in a completely friendly and polite manner and you have to insult him and his beliefs? Please stop being a douchebag.

In my opinion, by the way, you are only doing a disservice to humanity by arguing against religion, since, regardless of whether or not it is true, it is necessary for the world all the same.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 18 2009 21:16 GMT
#246
On February 19 2009 01:19 Jerebread wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 15:38 travis wrote:
On February 18 2009 14:45 Jerebread wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:31 travis wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:17 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:16 travis wrote:
did jesus ever say that people went to hell for eternity, or did he just say that hell existed eternally ?


p.s: why isn't the bible centered around the teachings of jesus if jesus was god ?

the new testament completely is


well, I never studied the bible much, as is probably evident from the last question I asked... but...

how did the teachings of such a simple man end up to be hundreds of pages and written by.. how many different authors? I guess it makes sense in a way, it's just that. does no one see how backwards that is?

just from personal experience of studying buddhism, i'd rather a one page lesson from buddha than an encyclopedia written by his disciples.


Hi travis, if I may answer, correct me if I am wrong, but you didn't really ask a question? Is the backwardsness in regard to how simple teachings can be made into what we have as the Bible today?

If so, I hope this answers some of your questions.
-the new testament can be divided into 'two sections':
1, The 4 Gospels (biographies of Jesus' life)
2. Letters written by apostles, mainly concerning Christian living (this addresses a whole variety of issues, take your pick)

As for reading a one page lesson from buddha, Jesus 'one-up's' this by encompassing all of God's commandments into two. (Which I'm sure you have heard of in some form or another.)


Taken from Matthew 22:37-40
1. 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
2. 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'



Thank you for the reply. I took the liberty of bolding some of your post (in my quote).

I guess my question is basically, "why is this not the focus of christianity?"


Hi Travis,

I believe that is the focus of Christianity (The two commandments. I must say here that if one thinks about it, it does encompass pretty much everything possible. 1. Relationship with God and 2. Relationships with others.).

If this is not what you percieve Christianity to be about, may I ask what do you think the focus has shifted to?


faith in jesus christ and that doing so will lead you to salvation
Jerebread
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada115 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-18 21:49:45
February 18 2009 21:49 GMT
#247
On February 19 2009 06:16 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 01:19 Jerebread wrote:
On February 18 2009 15:38 travis wrote:
On February 18 2009 14:45 Jerebread wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:31 travis wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:17 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:16 travis wrote:
did jesus ever say that people went to hell for eternity, or did he just say that hell existed eternally ?


p.s: why isn't the bible centered around the teachings of jesus if jesus was god ?

the new testament completely is


well, I never studied the bible much, as is probably evident from the last question I asked... but...

how did the teachings of such a simple man end up to be hundreds of pages and written by.. how many different authors? I guess it makes sense in a way, it's just that. does no one see how backwards that is?

just from personal experience of studying buddhism, i'd rather a one page lesson from buddha than an encyclopedia written by his disciples.


Hi travis, if I may answer, correct me if I am wrong, but you didn't really ask a question? Is the backwardsness in regard to how simple teachings can be made into what we have as the Bible today?

If so, I hope this answers some of your questions.
-the new testament can be divided into 'two sections':
1, The 4 Gospels (biographies of Jesus' life)
2. Letters written by apostles, mainly concerning Christian living (this addresses a whole variety of issues, take your pick)

As for reading a one page lesson from buddha, Jesus 'one-up's' this by encompassing all of God's commandments into two. (Which I'm sure you have heard of in some form or another.)


Taken from Matthew 22:37-40
1. 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
2. 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'



Thank you for the reply. I took the liberty of bolding some of your post (in my quote).

I guess my question is basically, "why is this not the focus of christianity?"


Hi Travis,

I believe that is the focus of Christianity (The two commandments. I must say here that if one thinks about it, it does encompass pretty much everything possible. 1. Relationship with God and 2. Relationships with others.).

If this is not what you percieve Christianity to be about, may I ask what do you think the focus has shifted to?


faith in jesus christ and that doing so will lead you to salvation


I believe that is covered in the first commandment.

edit: Are you familiar with the concept of the triune God? (the Trinity)
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 18 2009 23:02 GMT
#248
On February 19 2009 06:49 Jerebread wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 06:16 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 01:19 Jerebread wrote:
On February 18 2009 15:38 travis wrote:
On February 18 2009 14:45 Jerebread wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:31 travis wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:17 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:16 travis wrote:
did jesus ever say that people went to hell for eternity, or did he just say that hell existed eternally ?


p.s: why isn't the bible centered around the teachings of jesus if jesus was god ?

the new testament completely is


well, I never studied the bible much, as is probably evident from the last question I asked... but...

how did the teachings of such a simple man end up to be hundreds of pages and written by.. how many different authors? I guess it makes sense in a way, it's just that. does no one see how backwards that is?

just from personal experience of studying buddhism, i'd rather a one page lesson from buddha than an encyclopedia written by his disciples.


Hi travis, if I may answer, correct me if I am wrong, but you didn't really ask a question? Is the backwardsness in regard to how simple teachings can be made into what we have as the Bible today?

If so, I hope this answers some of your questions.
-the new testament can be divided into 'two sections':
1, The 4 Gospels (biographies of Jesus' life)
2. Letters written by apostles, mainly concerning Christian living (this addresses a whole variety of issues, take your pick)

As for reading a one page lesson from buddha, Jesus 'one-up's' this by encompassing all of God's commandments into two. (Which I'm sure you have heard of in some form or another.)


Taken from Matthew 22:37-40
1. 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
2. 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'



Thank you for the reply. I took the liberty of bolding some of your post (in my quote).

I guess my question is basically, "why is this not the focus of christianity?"


Hi Travis,

I believe that is the focus of Christianity (The two commandments. I must say here that if one thinks about it, it does encompass pretty much everything possible. 1. Relationship with God and 2. Relationships with others.).

If this is not what you percieve Christianity to be about, may I ask what do you think the focus has shifted to?


faith in jesus christ and that doing so will lead you to salvation


I believe that is covered in the first commandment.

edit: Are you familiar with the concept of the triune God? (the Trinity)


I've heard of it though I don't quite understand the concept of the holy ghost. But I never thought it mattered hehe.


anyways I am not disagreeing that "faith in jesus christ and that doing so will lead you to salvation" is covered in the 1st of the 2 commandments you listed. what I am saying is that "faith in jesus christ and that doing so will lead you to salvation" seems to be the focal point of christianity, rather than the 2 commandments you listed.
ruXxar
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Norway5669 Posts
February 18 2009 23:19 GMT
#249
On February 19 2009 00:02 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 21:09 IdrA wrote:
non-christians asked their deity and got just as clear an answer
whats up with that?

that is a valid, honest question as well.
all deeply religious people of all denominations share your faith, what makes you right? and you cant rely on 'knowing your god' because everyone else can claim the same thing.


On February 18 2009 23:57 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 21:40 Mada_Jiang wrote:
For some of who has directed comments and questions at me, forgive me if I don't respond. I speak to everyone here how I would speak to someone if I was face to face with them, and I try my best to be an encouragement to who ever I can. That is why if you are aiming comments at me as a personal attack, to vent your frustration, to make a statement of aggression based on your assumptions, or to ask me a question that you clearly don't want an answer from, then I wont be responding. To you I pray that peace be with you.

If you have a genuine question, or some thoughts you would like to share with me I would be more than happy to fellowship with you. Post your thoughts here, PM me or email me, or if you are a Sydney-sider, I'd be more than happy to meet for a coffee during business hours ^.^ I hope that we can be an encouragement and an edification to each other.

If your language of preference is Chinese or Japanese please also let me know. ^.^

on what do you base your assertion that the atom, or anything else in nature, requires a designer?
that is an honest question. it was an honest question the first time too.


Would any of you believers please respond to Idra's posts?
"alright guys im claiming my role im actually politician I can manipulate a persons vote during the day phase, used it on clarity last phase and forced him to vote for HF. full role name donald trump, definitely town sided". - EBH
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 19 2009 00:46 GMT
#250
On February 19 2009 05:07 NeVeR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 15:24 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:23 Mada_Jiang wrote:
For all those who are reading or contributing to this thread, I strongly encourage you to communicate with God him self and get your answers. If he is a loving father he wouldn't leave you in the dark. Rather than reading through how each individual think about religion, step away from that and ask God to reveal him self to you.

For those of you who are getting all worked up arguing with each other and treating each other like you would never do to each other in real life.... I have one suggestion:

Rather than debating over whether heat waves exists, put your self there and feel the heat it self. Once again my email is oni_jiang@hotmail.com. I wont tell you what I think, if you are interested, I will share with you my experiences with God.

I pray that peace will be with you. ^.^

you are stupid. i will not explicate further because you would simply disregard it. peace to you too though.


Wow, dude. The guy offers his hand out to everyone here in a completely friendly and polite manner and you have to insult him and his beliefs? Please stop being a douchebag.

In my opinion, by the way, you are only doing a disservice to humanity by arguing against religion, since, regardless of whether or not it is true, it is necessary for the world all the same.

how is it necessary?
certainly people can gain comfort from it, that doesnt mean its necessary or that its a net good. and one could argue that the comfort itself is not a good thing if its based on false premises.

and he deserves to be insulted, hes refusing to answer any post that legitly challenges his stance.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 19 2009 01:13 GMT
#251
On February 19 2009 06:49 Jerebread wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 06:16 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 01:19 Jerebread wrote:
On February 18 2009 15:38 travis wrote:
On February 18 2009 14:45 Jerebread wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:31 travis wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:17 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:16 travis wrote:
did jesus ever say that people went to hell for eternity, or did he just say that hell existed eternally ?


p.s: why isn't the bible centered around the teachings of jesus if jesus was god ?

the new testament completely is


well, I never studied the bible much, as is probably evident from the last question I asked... but...

how did the teachings of such a simple man end up to be hundreds of pages and written by.. how many different authors? I guess it makes sense in a way, it's just that. does no one see how backwards that is?

just from personal experience of studying buddhism, i'd rather a one page lesson from buddha than an encyclopedia written by his disciples.


Hi travis, if I may answer, correct me if I am wrong, but you didn't really ask a question? Is the backwardsness in regard to how simple teachings can be made into what we have as the Bible today?

If so, I hope this answers some of your questions.
-the new testament can be divided into 'two sections':
1, The 4 Gospels (biographies of Jesus' life)
2. Letters written by apostles, mainly concerning Christian living (this addresses a whole variety of issues, take your pick)

As for reading a one page lesson from buddha, Jesus 'one-up's' this by encompassing all of God's commandments into two. (Which I'm sure you have heard of in some form or another.)


Taken from Matthew 22:37-40
1. 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
2. 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'



Thank you for the reply. I took the liberty of bolding some of your post (in my quote).

I guess my question is basically, "why is this not the focus of christianity?"


Hi Travis,

I believe that is the focus of Christianity (The two commandments. I must say here that if one thinks about it, it does encompass pretty much everything possible. 1. Relationship with God and 2. Relationships with others.).

If this is not what you percieve Christianity to be about, may I ask what do you think the focus has shifted to?


faith in jesus christ and that doing so will lead you to salvation


I believe that is covered in the first commandment.

edit: Are you familiar with the concept of the triune God? (the Trinity)


three persons in one God

Replace "God" with "human" and you have someone with dissociative identity disorder!
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 19 2009 02:06 GMT
#252
On February 19 2009 09:46 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 05:07 NeVeR wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:24 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:23 Mada_Jiang wrote:
For all those who are reading or contributing to this thread, I strongly encourage you to communicate with God him self and get your answers. If he is a loving father he wouldn't leave you in the dark. Rather than reading through how each individual think about religion, step away from that and ask God to reveal him self to you.

For those of you who are getting all worked up arguing with each other and treating each other like you would never do to each other in real life.... I have one suggestion:

Rather than debating over whether heat waves exists, put your self there and feel the heat it self. Once again my email is oni_jiang@hotmail.com. I wont tell you what I think, if you are interested, I will share with you my experiences with God.

I pray that peace will be with you. ^.^

you are stupid. i will not explicate further because you would simply disregard it. peace to you too though.


Wow, dude. The guy offers his hand out to everyone here in a completely friendly and polite manner and you have to insult him and his beliefs? Please stop being a douchebag.

In my opinion, by the way, you are only doing a disservice to humanity by arguing against religion, since, regardless of whether or not it is true, it is necessary for the world all the same.

how is it necessary?
certainly people can gain comfort from it, that doesnt mean its necessary or that its a net good. and one could argue that the comfort itself is not a good thing if its based on false premises.

and he deserves to be insulted, hes refusing to answer any post that legitly challenges his stance.

IdrA, you just don't get it. What he said what "legitimate" and fully presents his view. I don't know what you think this thread is but it's a BLOG not a DEBATE thread. Just because you don't believe what he said is true doesn't mean it should be shut down. Don't argue against this. You know that if you believed what he said was true that you wouldn't say "and he deserves to be insulted".
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 19 2009 02:31 GMT
#253
--- Nuked ---
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
February 19 2009 02:35 GMT
#254
ruXxar, if you're not going to read my posts, then I won't waste time writing anything more. I answered your questions and gave examples. However, like I said, I doubt they would be enough for you.

Anyway, I'm taking a break. If any of you have something to ask or say to me, you can PM me. Have fun!
Soli Deo gloria.
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 19 2009 02:42 GMT
#255
--- Nuked ---
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 02:58:03
February 19 2009 02:55 GMT
#256
On February 19 2009 11:31 Mada_Jiang wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 05:07 NeVeR wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:24 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:23 Mada_Jiang wrote:
For all those who are reading or contributing to this thread, I strongly encourage you to communicate with God him self and get your answers. If he is a loving father he wouldn't leave you in the dark. Rather than reading through how each individual think about religion, step away from that and ask God to reveal him self to you.

For those of you who are getting all worked up arguing with each other and treating each other like you would never do to each other in real life.... I have one suggestion:

Rather than debating over whether heat waves exists, put your self there and feel the heat it self. Once again my email is oni_jiang@hotmail.com. I wont tell you what I think, if you are interested, I will share with you my experiences with God.

I pray that peace will be with you. ^.^

you are stupid. i will not explicate further because you would simply disregard it. peace to you too though.


Wow, dude. The guy offers his hand out to everyone here in a completely friendly and polite manner and you have to insult him and his beliefs? Please stop being a douchebag.

In my opinion, by the way, you are only doing a disservice to humanity by arguing against religion, since, regardless of whether or not it is true, it is necessary for the world all the same.


Hi Never ^.^
I am not insulted at all but thanks a lot for your concern. I dunno if it is because of bad past experiences with Christians or what, but it seems that a lot of hot blooded young people respond to Christians with aggression only instead being able to talk like civilised adults.

Hi Mada ^.^

I don't know if you've noticed my other posts in this thread, but I have only been aggressive towards you and TechniQ.UK (and the Christian here and there who tries to use Physics incorrectly, which I kind of take personally), because you two represent the most dogmatic Christians in this thread . I have explicated multiple times on why I hate this kind of dogma, and the fact that you keep ignoring points that were made and saying essentially "once you open up to God, you'll see" is particularly bothersome to me for reasons I've already stated. To all the Christians who have been trying to answer my points without this kind of dogmatic "reasoning," I have been much more civil.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 03:04 GMT
#257
Is there some rule that he has to reply to you?

If you think he isn't answering your questions that is fine but there is no reason to be rude or insulting to someone who seems very polite and pacified.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 19 2009 03:05 GMT
#258
On February 19 2009 12:04 travis wrote:
Is there some rule that he has to reply to you?

If you think he isn't answering your questions that is fine but there is no reason to be rude or insulting to someone who seems very polite and pacified.

no, its just that he kept sporadically coming in, spewing everything in a vacuum, and leaving

he's started to respond to more though, but they all generally have the conclusion of "close your eyes and feel the magic"

once was enough for his purposes
posting on liquid sites in current year
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 03:48:01
February 19 2009 03:47 GMT
#259
On February 19 2009 12:05 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 12:04 travis wrote:
Is there some rule that he has to reply to you?

If you think he isn't answering your questions that is fine but there is no reason to be rude or insulting to someone who seems very polite and pacified.

no, its just that he kept sporadically coming in, spewing everything in a vacuum, and leaving

he's started to respond to more though, but they all generally have the conclusion of "close your eyes and feel the magic"

once was enough for his purposes

To you this is "spewing" but from my point of view his responses are proper.

If you feel otherwise there's STILL no need to degrade yourself to "spewing" insults.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
Jerebread
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada115 Posts
February 19 2009 03:49 GMT
#260
On February 19 2009 08:02 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 06:49 Jerebread wrote:
On February 19 2009 06:16 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 01:19 Jerebread wrote:
On February 18 2009 15:38 travis wrote:
On February 18 2009 14:45 Jerebread wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:31 travis wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:17 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 18 2009 13:16 travis wrote:
did jesus ever say that people went to hell for eternity, or did he just say that hell existed eternally ?


p.s: why isn't the bible centered around the teachings of jesus if jesus was god ?

the new testament completely is


well, I never studied the bible much, as is probably evident from the last question I asked... but...

how did the teachings of such a simple man end up to be hundreds of pages and written by.. how many different authors? I guess it makes sense in a way, it's just that. does no one see how backwards that is?

just from personal experience of studying buddhism, i'd rather a one page lesson from buddha than an encyclopedia written by his disciples.


Hi travis, if I may answer, correct me if I am wrong, but you didn't really ask a question? Is the backwardsness in regard to how simple teachings can be made into what we have as the Bible today?

If so, I hope this answers some of your questions.
-the new testament can be divided into 'two sections':
1, The 4 Gospels (biographies of Jesus' life)
2. Letters written by apostles, mainly concerning Christian living (this addresses a whole variety of issues, take your pick)

As for reading a one page lesson from buddha, Jesus 'one-up's' this by encompassing all of God's commandments into two. (Which I'm sure you have heard of in some form or another.)


Taken from Matthew 22:37-40
1. 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
2. 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'



Thank you for the reply. I took the liberty of bolding some of your post (in my quote).

I guess my question is basically, "why is this not the focus of christianity?"


Hi Travis,

I believe that is the focus of Christianity (The two commandments. I must say here that if one thinks about it, it does encompass pretty much everything possible. 1. Relationship with God and 2. Relationships with others.).

If this is not what you percieve Christianity to be about, may I ask what do you think the focus has shifted to?


faith in jesus christ and that doing so will lead you to salvation


I believe that is covered in the first commandment.

edit: Are you familiar with the concept of the triune God? (the Trinity)


I've heard of it though I don't quite understand the concept of the holy ghost. But I never thought it mattered hehe.


anyways I am not disagreeing that "faith in jesus christ and that doing so will lead you to salvation" is covered in the 1st of the 2 commandments you listed. what I am saying is that "faith in jesus christ and that doing so will lead you to salvation" seems to be the focal point of christianity, rather than the 2 commandments you listed.


Hi Travis,

So if 'faith in Jesus Christ and that doing so will lead you to salvation' is covered in the focal points of the two commandments, is there a problem? Being included in the commandments does not take away from the focus.

The holy spirit/ghost is the third part of the trinity. The first and second being God the father, and God the son (Jesus).

An common analogy used to describe the trinity is the concept of an egg. What is an egg made of? The shell, the egg white, and the yolk. 3 parts in one, all making up the egg.

I hope that made it a little clearer for you, analogies are not always perfect =/

On February 19 2009 10:13 Mindcrime wrote:
three persons in one God

Replace "God" with "human" and you have someone with dissociative identity disorder!


Hi Mindcrime,

Are you trying to make a funny or trying to contribute to the discussion?

If you're trying to make a joke... props, good one.

If you're trying to add to the discussion, I explained the concept a little earlier in the post.

On February 19 2009 00:02 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 21:09 IdrA wrote:
non-christians asked their deity and got just as clear an answer
whats up with that?

that is a valid, honest question as well.
all deeply religious people of all denominations share your faith, what makes you right? and you cant rely on 'knowing your god' because everyone else can claim the same thing.


Hi Idra,

What makes my faith right more right than other religions is your question, correct?

Let me begin by saying that the conflict that most people have in their minds is the admirable quality of tolerance for different viewpoints, particularly religious ones, and the position that all views have equal validity. We can be tolerant by respecting the rights of others to hold alternative viewpoints without degenerating into verbal harassment (see above posts), yet still be firmly committed to believing that one point is true.

With that said, lets get into the good stuff.

The assumption by many is that all religions are basically the same is blatantly incorrect. A few of you have touched on this, and rightly so.

At this point, we have established that all religions are NOT the same, and that they cannot all be true.

See spoiler for a tidbit on Eastern religions
+ Show Spoiler +
Although there are similarities, the differences are very significant. Eastern religions teach “monism” (all is one), that each person is a part of everything, including God, and that ultimately one needs to lose oneself in "the all" like a drop of water losing itself in the ocean. Christianity, however, affirms that each person is a unique individual and will remain such after death. Christianity teaches that God loves us; an impersonal, eastern god cannot love us. Obviously all religions are not the same; they contradict one another. Therefore they cannot all be true.


Next, simply put, - my God claims to be God. Now you (the audience in general) might be sitting there thinking, that's a retarded, self-validating statement. But, when you look into the other faiths of the world, you come to find that Jesus is the only one who made such claims.

Now if Jesus claims to be God, then there must be things about his life that back that up, otherwise, he's just a liar, or a crazy guy. Aside from the many miracles that he performed (eg. healing the blind/deaf/mute/terminally ill/raising the dead), the greatest testament to his divinity, is in his resurrection.

Jesus could only have been one of four things: a legend, a liar, a lunatic--or Lord and God. There is so much historical and archeological evidence to support his existence that every reputable historian agrees he was not just a legend. If he were a liar, why would he die for his claim + Show Spoiler +
(Just in case anyone decides to make a comment about suicide bombers, just... lol, two very different things.),
when he could easily have avoided such a cruel death with a few choice words? And, if he were a lunatic, how did he engage in intelligent debates with his opponents or handle the stress of his betrayal and crucifixion while continuing to show a deep love for his antagonists? He said he was Lord and God. The evidence supports that claim.

So, a rather long post, but there you have it:

Why is my faith more correct than other faiths? God is God.

Idra, I hope that has answered your question, feel free to disagree with it, let me know what you think. I have a couple of questions for you myself, pardon me if you've answered them in previous posts that I have not read, please repost it if you have.

You said in previous posts that you are an agnostic, but for all intents and purpose, an atheist.

I will address you as coming from the atheist perspective if that's ok then?

I would like to know what your take is on this classic teleological argument for a creator?
-Complexity implies a designer.
-The universe is highly complex.
-Therefore, the universe has a designer.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 04:14:57
February 19 2009 04:09 GMT
#261
On February 19 2009 12:49 Jerebread wrote:
I would like to know what your take is on this classic teleological argument for a creator?
-Complexity implies a designer.
-The universe is highly complex.
-Therefore, the universe has a designer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Response_of_the_scientific_community
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe#Naturalistic_possibilities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe#Counter_argument_to_religious_views

i could type all this up, but i already typed up some of it (one possible explanation) in my previous post responding to you

edit: found it

On February 18 2009 15:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
To add a counter against the fine-tuning principle, which is one of the cruxes of I.D., the fact that the 20 fundamental constants needed for matter to hold together like this so well may not be a coincidence. The inflationary period proposed by Alan Guth (which is generally accepted now, with different flavors existing because we don't have enough observational data to rule some versions out) awhile back may have been a vacuum nucleation event, in which the fundamental constants were changing while the entirety of the universe was moving to a lower potential energy state. The constants that exist such that matter can exist on mass scales as they do today may very well have been settled upon due to their low potential energy states (matter has more potential energy than pure energy), so in order to fall into the lowest potential energy states, the constants would have tuned themselves to the values such that the most matter could exist (while still not violating the second law of thermodynamics). So that explains why the constants are so good towards the end of matter existing, and the anthropic principle IdrA mentions explains why we feel so special that we exist here. If we existed on the other side of the universe, we'd feel just as special, cuz over there, it wouldn't be "the other side of the universe" to itself. By the way, scientists have been able to reproduce the reactions that change carbon/nitrogen compounds -> amino acids and amino acids -> peptide compounds (by a process imitating an asteroid hitting earth). Just a few more steps and we have self-replicating RNA. (otherwise known as rudimentary life)

Again, just like TechniQ, don't pretend to know physics to advance your argument. His BS about the big bang was wrong and your BS about the 20 constants could be very wrong as well.

posting on liquid sites in current year
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 04:19:05
February 19 2009 04:13 GMT
#262
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith. Just because I'm zealous about science doesn't mean I'm zealous on dogma, which you are.

also, to the "cannot reason" comment, yes i can, because if there is scientfic proof that something i used to believe was true in physics, i could readily throw it away. yes, i have an inherent faith in physics itself and its methods, because they all logically make sense, and you can't pull the ground out from under the scientific method itself, as there are no contradictions nor unfairness like there are among the denominations of christianity.
posting on liquid sites in current year
LTT
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Shakuras1095 Posts
February 19 2009 04:17 GMT
#263
On February 19 2009 12:49 Jerebread wrote:
Next, simply put, - my God claims to be God. Now you (the audience in general) might be sitting there thinking, that's a retarded, self-validating statement. But, when you look into the other faiths of the world, you come to find that Jesus is the only one who made such claims.

Now if Jesus claims to be God, then there must be things about his life that back that up, otherwise, he's just a liar, or a crazy guy. Aside from the many miracles that he performed (eg. healing the blind/deaf/mute/terminally ill/raising the dead), the greatest testament to his divinity, is in his resurrection.

Jesus could only have been one of four things: a legend, a liar, a lunatic--or Lord and God. There is so much historical and archeological evidence to support his existence that every reputable historian agrees he was not just a legend. If he were a liar, why would he die for his claim + Show Spoiler +
(Just in case anyone decides to make a comment about suicide bombers, just... lol, two very different things.),
when he could easily have avoided such a cruel death with a few choice words? And, if he were a lunatic, how did he engage in intelligent debates with his opponents or handle the stress of his betrayal and crucifixion while continuing to show a deep love for his antagonists? He said he was Lord and God. The evidence supports that claim.


Biblical scholars disagree with you here...

John Hick, The Metaphor of God Incarnate, page 27: "A further point of broad agreement among New Testament scholars ... is that the historical Jesus did not make the claim to deity that later Christian thought was to make for him: he did not understand himself to be God, or God the Son, incarnate. ... such evidence as there is has led the historians of the period to conclude, with an impressive degree of unanimity, that Jesus did not claim to be God incarnate.";


Gerd Lüdemann, "An Embarrassing Misrepresentation", Free Inquiry, October / November 2007: "the broad consensus of modern New Testament scholars that the proclamation of Jesus' exalted nature was in large measure the creation of the earliest Christian communities."


On February 19 2009 12:49 Jerebread wrote:
I would like to know what your take is on this classic teleological argument for a creator?
-Complexity implies a designer.
-The universe is highly complex.
-Therefore, the universe has a designer.


The first assumption is where the problem lies (well, one of them...). The structure of a snowflake is highly complex but there are no snowflake bluebrints up in the clouds. :x
Jerebread
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada115 Posts
February 19 2009 04:18 GMT
#264
Hi SpiritoftheTunA and IdrA,

I realize that what is found below is a rather long read (and probably boring for the rest of you), but you guys seem to be interested in it, and I would like to know what you think of it.

William Lane Craig wrote in his book, Reasonable Faith, that ‘Now a precisely parallel problem attends the Many Worlds Hypothesis is an explanation of fine-tuning. As we have seen, Roger Penrose calculates that the odds of our universe’s low entropy condition obtaining by chance alone are on the order of 1:10^10(123), an inconceivable number. If our universe were but one member of a collection of randomly ordered worlds, then it is vastly more probable that we should be observing a much smaller universe. Adopting the Many Worlds Hypothesis to explain away fine-tuning would thus result in a bizarre illusionism; it is far more probable that all our astronomical, geological, and biological estimates of age are wrong and that the appearance of our large and old universe is a massive illusion. Or again, if our universe is but one member of a World Ensemble, then we ought to be observing highly extraordinary events, like horses popping into and out of existence by random collisions, or perpetual motion machines, since these are vastly more probable than all of nature’s constants and quantities falling by chance into the virtually infinitesimal life-permitting range. Observable universes like those are much more plenteous in the ensemble of universes than worlds like ours and, therefore, ought to be observed by us if the universe were but one member of an ensemble of worlds. Since we do not have such observations, that fact strongly disconfirms the multiverse hypothesis. On atheism, at least, it is therefore highly probable that there is no World Ensemble.’

Just so you know where this guy is coming from, and not some random hobo that just says things, he pursued his undergraduate studies at Wheaton College (B.A. 1971) and graduate studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (M.A. 1974; M.A. 1975), the University of Birmingham (England) (Ph.D. 1977), and the University of Munich (Germany) (D.Theol. 1984). He is also an accomplished writer, authoring over 30 books and over a hundred articles in professional journals.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 04:35:57
February 19 2009 04:22 GMT
#265
On February 19 2009 13:18 Jerebread wrote:
Hi SpiritoftheTunA and IdrA,

I realize that what is found below is a rather long read (and probably boring for the rest of you), but you guys seem to be interested in it, and I would like to know what you think of it.

William Lane Craig wrote in his book, Reasonable Faith, that ‘Now a precisely parallel problem attends the Many Worlds Hypothesis is an explanation of fine-tuning. As we have seen, Roger Penrose calculates that the odds of our universe’s low entropy condition obtaining by chance alone are on the order of 1:10^10(123), an inconceivable number. If our universe were but one member of a collection of randomly ordered worlds, then it is vastly more probable that we should be observing a much smaller universe. Adopting the Many Worlds Hypothesis to explain away fine-tuning would thus result in a bizarre illusionism; it is far more probable that all our astronomical, geological, and biological estimates of age are wrong and that the appearance of our large and old universe is a massive illusion. Or again, if our universe is but one member of a World Ensemble, then we ought to be observing highly extraordinary events, like horses popping into and out of existence by random collisions, or perpetual motion machines, since these are vastly more probable than all of nature’s constants and quantities falling by chance into the virtually infinitesimal life-permitting range. Observable universes like those are much more plenteous in the ensemble of universes than worlds like ours and, therefore, ought to be observed by us if the universe were but one member of an ensemble of worlds. Since we do not have such observations, that fact strongly disconfirms the multiverse hypothesis. On atheism, at least, it is therefore highly probable that there is no World Ensemble.’

Just so you know where this guy is coming from, and not some random hobo that just says things, he pursued his undergraduate studies at Wheaton College (B.A. 1971) and graduate studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (M.A. 1974; M.A. 1975), the University of Birmingham (England) (Ph.D. 1977), and the University of Munich (Germany) (D.Theol. 1984). He is also an accomplished writer, authoring over 30 books and over a hundred articles in professional journals.

It's just an example of another theologian cherry picking at the multiple theories in physics to find things he wants to use to imply a creator. The calculations you mention are nowhere near widely accepted, and is one of many theories. Most theories don't imply improbability of the low entropy condition, and I suggest you do research yourself on the subject. Just because he studied doesn't mean he framed it in a sensible light. Ask any physics Ph.D (preferably Cosmology) if his conclusion is viable, and they'll tell you the truth (it's far-fetched as hell and cherry picking theories). His doctorate was in Philosophy, and his degrees were in theology, so why would you mark him as a credible source in physics?

Ask any Harvard law graduate how the moon makes the tides and he'll give you, with 100% confidence, the completely wrong answer of "gravity pulls the water closer to the moon." In actuality, the differential gravity between the sides and center of the earth is what creates the tides. Just because somebody is highly educated doesn't mean they're right. Again, most physicists won't go around pretending to be well-read theologians, theologians should truly study physics comprehensively before they should be allowed to present theories in order to advance their own creationist agendas. This guy clearly didn't, especially considering how much time he spent getting his other degrees.

Show me one article of his that got published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal and I will retract all of these statements.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
February 19 2009 04:26 GMT
#266
Eh, isnt the whole "complexity requires a designer" argument completely debunked with darwin? Where something very simple can form something really complex with evolution?
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 04:48:52
February 19 2009 04:30 GMT
#267
On February 19 2009 12:49 Jerebread wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 10:13 Mindcrime wrote:
three persons in one God

Replace "God" with "human" and you have someone with dissociative identity disorder!


Hi Mindcrime,

Are you trying to make a funny or trying to contribute to the discussion?

If you're trying to make a joke... props, good one.

If you're trying to add to the discussion, I explained the concept a little earlier in the post.


White, yolk, and shell? When you put it that way, it certainly sounds like tritheism to me!

It seems rather odd that such a major tenant of a majority of Christian sects was never explicitly stated anywhere in the Bible.

There is so much historical and archeological evidence to support his existence that every reputable historian agrees he was not just a legend.


Historical and archaeological evidence? Like what? I've never heard of any archaeological evidence of any sort, and the only historical accounts of Jesus come from historians who wrote many decades later and very plausibly could have gotten all of their information on the subject from Christians.

That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
Jerebread
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada115 Posts
February 19 2009 04:50 GMT
#268
On February 19 2009 13:17 LTT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 12:49 Jerebread wrote:
Next, simply put, - my God claims to be God. Now you (the audience in general) might be sitting there thinking, that's a retarded, self-validating statement. But, when you look into the other faiths of the world, you come to find that Jesus is the only one who made such claims.

Now if Jesus claims to be God, then there must be things about his life that back that up, otherwise, he's just a liar, or a crazy guy. Aside from the many miracles that he performed (eg. healing the blind/deaf/mute/terminally ill/raising the dead), the greatest testament to his divinity, is in his resurrection.

Jesus could only have been one of four things: a legend, a liar, a lunatic--or Lord and God. There is so much historical and archeological evidence to support his existence that every reputable historian agrees he was not just a legend. If he were a liar, why would he die for his claim + Show Spoiler +
(Just in case anyone decides to make a comment about suicide bombers, just... lol, two very different things.),
when he could easily have avoided such a cruel death with a few choice words? And, if he were a lunatic, how did he engage in intelligent debates with his opponents or handle the stress of his betrayal and crucifixion while continuing to show a deep love for his antagonists? He said he was Lord and God. The evidence supports that claim.


Biblical scholars disagree with you here...

Show nested quote +
John Hick, The Metaphor of God Incarnate, page 27: "A further point of broad agreement among New Testament scholars ... is that the historical Jesus did not make the claim to deity that later Christian thought was to make for him: he did not understand himself to be God, or God the Son, incarnate. ... such evidence as there is has led the historians of the period to conclude, with an impressive degree of unanimity, that Jesus did not claim to be God incarnate.";


Show nested quote +
Gerd Lüdemann, "An Embarrassing Misrepresentation", Free Inquiry, October / November 2007: "the broad consensus of modern New Testament scholars that the proclamation of Jesus' exalted nature was in large measure the creation of the earliest Christian communities."


Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 12:49 Jerebread wrote:
I would like to know what your take is on this classic teleological argument for a creator?
-Complexity implies a designer.
-The universe is highly complex.
-Therefore, the universe has a designer.


The first assumption is where the problem lies (well, one of them...). The structure of a snowflake is highly complex but there are no snowflake bluebrints up in the clouds. :x


From the Bible:

-The title "Son of God" ("Son of" implies "of the same nature as."): Mt 11:27; Mk 12:6; 13:32; 14:61-62; Lk 10:22; 22: 70; Jn 10:30; 14: 9
-Omnipresent: Mt 18:20; 28:20
-Omnipotent: Mt 28:18; Heb 1:3; Rev 1:8
-Creates (only God can create): Col 1:16-17; Jn 1:3; 1 Cor 8:6; Heb 1:10
-Sinless, perfect: Heb 7:26; Jn 8:46; 2 Cor 5:21
-Has authority to forgive sins: Mk 2:5-12; Lk 24:45-47; Acts 10:43; 1 Jn 1:5-9
-One with the Father: Jn 10:30; 12:45, 14:8-10
-Gives eternal life: Jn 3:16; 5:39-40; 20:30-31

If you don't have a Bible, or don't have the time to look up the references:
+ Show Spoiler +
Jesus clearly claimed to be the Messiah and Son of God:

-Jesus told the Samaritan woman that he is the Messiah (Jn 4:25-26)
-Jesus affirmed Peter's statement that he is the Messiah and Son of God (Mt 16:15-17, see also Mk 8:29-30, Lk 9:20-21)
-Jesus told the high priest that he is the Messiah and Son of God (Mk 14:61-62, Mt 26:63-64, Lk 22: 70)
-The Jews understood that this meant Jesus was equating himself with God: "he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn 5:17-18).

Other places where Jesus equated himself with God:

-Jesus told the Jews, "I and the Father are one." (Jn 10:24-38)
-Jesus told the disciples, "You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am." (Jn 13:13)
-Jesus forgave sins, which only God had the authority to do (Mk 2:5-11, Lk 5:20-24)
-Jesus said that he had seen Abraham and that he is eternal: "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (Jn 8:57-58)
-Jesus said that he had seen God, which no one else could do (Jn 6:46)



The Jewish leaders at that time got REALLY riled up about Jesus, to the point where they had the most innocent man in history put to death. Why is that? The number one reason is that he claimed to be divine.


NeVeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1352 Posts
February 19 2009 04:55 GMT
#269
On February 19 2009 09:46 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 05:07 NeVeR wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:24 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:23 Mada_Jiang wrote:
For all those who are reading or contributing to this thread, I strongly encourage you to communicate with God him self and get your answers. If he is a loving father he wouldn't leave you in the dark. Rather than reading through how each individual think about religion, step away from that and ask God to reveal him self to you.

For those of you who are getting all worked up arguing with each other and treating each other like you would never do to each other in real life.... I have one suggestion:

Rather than debating over whether heat waves exists, put your self there and feel the heat it self. Once again my email is oni_jiang@hotmail.com. I wont tell you what I think, if you are interested, I will share with you my experiences with God.

I pray that peace will be with you. ^.^

you are stupid. i will not explicate further because you would simply disregard it. peace to you too though.


Wow, dude. The guy offers his hand out to everyone here in a completely friendly and polite manner and you have to insult him and his beliefs? Please stop being a douchebag.

In my opinion, by the way, you are only doing a disservice to humanity by arguing against religion, since, regardless of whether or not it is true, it is necessary for the world all the same.

how is it necessary?
certainly people can gain comfort from it, that doesnt mean its necessary or that its a net good. and one could argue that the comfort itself is not a good thing if its based on false premises.

and he deserves to be insulted, hes refusing to answer any post that legitly challenges his stance.


Like you said, the comfort (though I wouldn't use that word) it gives people is significant. To be more specific, it gives people a sense of purpose and serves as a foundation for morality. It also serves as a deterrent to crime. I believe that the benefits of religion greatly outweigh the harm it is capable of.

So why religion instead of mere individual spirituality? Religion creates a widespread community of believers that reinforces the faith of the individual and allows him to experience it in a social setting. We as human beings are social creatures, after all, and when we're able to share our beliefs or interests with others who feel similarly, we are all the more strengthened in those feelings. If you were to pursue the argument that "comfort itself is not a good thing if it's based on false premises", I would perhaps ask you what you believe the purpose of life should be. If you tell me that it is happiness - well, there's a contradiction.

Actually though, I personally find this common theory or notion of happiness as the aim of life to be somewhat disagreeable, for reasons I won't go into here.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 04:58 GMT
#270
On February 19 2009 13:13 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith.



Science requires an equal amount of faith: 100%

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (nosc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our origins. We know so little pre-big bang.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our subjective experiences and their root cause or true nature. All science has done is shown that our experiences correlate to our body/brain. But even religious people already know that much.

Religion does not conflict with science regarding the nature of what is happening to us right now. Where they conflict is on the cause and the results; neither has the upper hand there.
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 19 2009 05:03 GMT
#271
On February 19 2009 13:58 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 13:13 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith.



Science requires an equal amount of faith: 100%

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (nosc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our origins. We know so little pre-big bang.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our subjective experiences and their root cause or true nature. All science has done is shown that our experiences correlate to our body/brain. But even religious people already know that much.

Religion does not conflict with science regarding the nature of what is happening to us right now. Where they conflict is on the cause and the results; neither has the upper hand there.

Yes, I remember a scientist saying that nothing in science is 100% for sure.

Science may be easier to grasp and accept but that by no means correlates with truth.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 05:19:09
February 19 2009 05:10 GMT
#272
On February 19 2009 13:58 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 13:13 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith.



Science requires an equal amount of faith: 100%

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (nosc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our origins. We know so little pre-big bang.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our subjective experiences and their root cause or true nature. All science has done is shown that our experiences correlate to our body/brain. But even religious people already know that much.

Religion does not conflict with science regarding the nature of what is happening to us right now. Where they conflict is on the cause and the results; neither has the upper hand there.

Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet. Also, science conflicts alot not just with pre-big bang, but also with many religious denominations' interpretations of how life exists, why the Earth is where it is, evolution, etc. Science has evidence for all of these, religion only has faith.

(Plus, Christian schools used to teach that the Earth was the center of the universe and the stars were all on a sphere of crystalline perfection rotating around us. Churches had many of Galileo's followers 'disappear' just for challenging this model)

The real difference between science and religion is that science does not conjure theories from anything other than evidence.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 19 2009 05:11 GMT
#273
On February 19 2009 13:58 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 13:13 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith.



Science requires an equal amount of faith: 100%

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (nosc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our origins. We know so little pre-big bang.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our subjective experiences and their root cause or true nature. All science has done is shown that our experiences correlate to our body/brain. But even religious people already know that much.

Religion does not conflict with science regarding the nature of what is happening to us right now. Where they conflict is on the cause and the results; neither has the upper hand there.


What about saying "we're not certain" takes faith?
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
LTT
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Shakuras1095 Posts
February 19 2009 05:14 GMT
#274
On February 19 2009 13:50 Jerebread wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 13:17 LTT wrote:
On February 19 2009 12:49 Jerebread wrote:
Next, simply put, - my God claims to be God. Now you (the audience in general) might be sitting there thinking, that's a retarded, self-validating statement. But, when you look into the other faiths of the world, you come to find that Jesus is the only one who made such claims.

Now if Jesus claims to be God, then there must be things about his life that back that up, otherwise, he's just a liar, or a crazy guy. Aside from the many miracles that he performed (eg. healing the blind/deaf/mute/terminally ill/raising the dead), the greatest testament to his divinity, is in his resurrection.

Jesus could only have been one of four things: a legend, a liar, a lunatic--or Lord and God. There is so much historical and archeological evidence to support his existence that every reputable historian agrees he was not just a legend. If he were a liar, why would he die for his claim + Show Spoiler +
(Just in case anyone decides to make a comment about suicide bombers, just... lol, two very different things.),
when he could easily have avoided such a cruel death with a few choice words? And, if he were a lunatic, how did he engage in intelligent debates with his opponents or handle the stress of his betrayal and crucifixion while continuing to show a deep love for his antagonists? He said he was Lord and God. The evidence supports that claim.


Biblical scholars disagree with you here...

John Hick, The Metaphor of God Incarnate, page 27: "A further point of broad agreement among New Testament scholars ... is that the historical Jesus did not make the claim to deity that later Christian thought was to make for him: he did not understand himself to be God, or God the Son, incarnate. ... such evidence as there is has led the historians of the period to conclude, with an impressive degree of unanimity, that Jesus did not claim to be God incarnate.";


Gerd Lüdemann, "An Embarrassing Misrepresentation", Free Inquiry, October / November 2007: "the broad consensus of modern New Testament scholars that the proclamation of Jesus' exalted nature was in large measure the creation of the earliest Christian communities."


On February 19 2009 12:49 Jerebread wrote:
I would like to know what your take is on this classic teleological argument for a creator?
-Complexity implies a designer.
-The universe is highly complex.
-Therefore, the universe has a designer.


The first assumption is where the problem lies (well, one of them...). The structure of a snowflake is highly complex but there are no snowflake bluebrints up in the clouds. :x


From the Bible:

-The title "Son of God" ("Son of" implies "of the same nature as."): Mt 11:27; Mk 12:6; 13:32; 14:61-62; Lk 10:22; 22: 70; Jn 10:30; 14: 9
-Omnipresent: Mt 18:20; 28:20
-Omnipotent: Mt 28:18; Heb 1:3; Rev 1:8
-Creates (only God can create): Col 1:16-17; Jn 1:3; 1 Cor 8:6; Heb 1:10
-Sinless, perfect: Heb 7:26; Jn 8:46; 2 Cor 5:21
-Has authority to forgive sins: Mk 2:5-12; Lk 24:45-47; Acts 10:43; 1 Jn 1:5-9
-One with the Father: Jn 10:30; 12:45, 14:8-10
-Gives eternal life: Jn 3:16; 5:39-40; 20:30-31

If you don't have a Bible, or don't have the time to look up the references:
+ Show Spoiler +
Jesus clearly claimed to be the Messiah and Son of God:

-Jesus told the Samaritan woman that he is the Messiah (Jn 4:25-26)
-Jesus affirmed Peter's statement that he is the Messiah and Son of God (Mt 16:15-17, see also Mk 8:29-30, Lk 9:20-21)
-Jesus told the high priest that he is the Messiah and Son of God (Mk 14:61-62, Mt 26:63-64, Lk 22: 70)
-The Jews understood that this meant Jesus was equating himself with God: "he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn 5:17-18).

Other places where Jesus equated himself with God:

-Jesus told the Jews, "I and the Father are one." (Jn 10:24-38)
-Jesus told the disciples, "You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am." (Jn 13:13)
-Jesus forgave sins, which only God had the authority to do (Mk 2:5-11, Lk 5:20-24)
-Jesus said that he had seen Abraham and that he is eternal: "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (Jn 8:57-58)
-Jesus said that he had seen God, which no one else could do (Jn 6:46)



The Jewish leaders at that time got REALLY riled up about Jesus, to the point where they had the most innocent man in history put to death. Why is that? The number one reason is that he claimed to be divine.




Summation:
"I will prove to you that Jesus' claims to divinity were not made after the fact, by Chrisitans with a vested interest, by quoting the handbook which was made after the fact by said Christians."
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 05:22 GMT
#275
On February 19 2009 14:11 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 13:58 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:13 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith.



Science requires an equal amount of faith: 100%

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (nosc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our origins. We know so little pre-big bang.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our subjective experiences and their root cause or true nature. All science has done is shown that our experiences correlate to our body/brain. But even religious people already know that much.

Religion does not conflict with science regarding the nature of what is happening to us right now. Where they conflict is on the cause and the results; neither has the upper hand there.


What about saying "we're not certain" takes faith?


so you admit that the existence of a creator or greater scheme of things is just as possible as not?


On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


Also, science conflicts alot not just with pre-big bang, but also with many religious denominations' interpretations of how life exists, why the Earth is where it is, evolution, etc. Science has evidence for all of these, religion only has faith.


give me one example of where science conflicts with the bible. and I do expect you to leave room for interpretation in the words of the bible.


(Plus, Christian schools used to teach that the Earth was the center of the universe and the stars were all on a sphere of crystalline perfection rotating around us. Churches had many of Galileo's followers 'disappear' just for challenging this model)


I am sure that non-christian schools have taught that same thing in the past. I really could care less about what sinful people have done in the name of various religions. That has absolutely nothing to do with the religion itself - it has to do with mankind.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 19 2009 05:22 GMT
#276
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +

Also, science conflicts alot not just with pre-big bang, but also with many religious denominations' interpretations of how life exists, why the Earth is where it is, evolution, etc. Science has evidence for all of these, religion only has faith.


give me one example of where science conflicts with the bible. and I do expect you to leave room for interpretation in the words of the bible.

i never said the bible itself, note my wording, "many religious denominations' interpretations"
posting on liquid sites in current year
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 19 2009 05:25 GMT
#277
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:11 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:58 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:13 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith.



Science requires an equal amount of faith: 100%

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (nosc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our origins. We know so little pre-big bang.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our subjective experiences and their root cause or true nature. All science has done is shown that our experiences correlate to our body/brain. But even religious people already know that much.

Religion does not conflict with science regarding the nature of what is happening to us right now. Where they conflict is on the cause and the results; neither has the upper hand there.


What about saying "we're not certain" takes faith?


so you admit that the existence of a creator or greater scheme of things is just as possible as not?


No. Not being certain and giving god a 50% chance of existing are two totally different things.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 19 2009 05:25 GMT
#278
On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 13:58 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:13 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith.



Science requires an equal amount of faith: 100%

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (nosc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our origins. We know so little pre-big bang.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our subjective experiences and their root cause or true nature. All science has done is shown that our experiences correlate to our body/brain. But even religious people already know that much.

Religion does not conflict with science regarding the nature of what is happening to us right now. Where they conflict is on the cause and the results; neither has the upper hand there.

Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet. Also, science conflicts alot not just with pre-big bang, but also with many religious denominations' interpretations of how life exists, why the Earth is where it is, evolution, etc. Science has evidence for all of these, religion only has faith.

(Plus, Christian schools used to teach that the Earth was the center of the universe and the stars were all on a sphere of crystalline perfection rotating around us. Churches had many of Galileo's followers 'disappear' just for challenging this model)

The real difference between science and religion is that science does not conjure theories from anything other than evidence.

The problem with this is that you're lumping all Christians together. Just because a certain group used to teach that doesn't mean we're all incorrect in our beliefs.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 05:27 GMT
#279
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 19 2009 05:28 GMT
#280
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up. The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.

As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 05:29 GMT
#281
On February 19 2009 14:25 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:11 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:58 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:13 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith.



Science requires an equal amount of faith: 100%

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (nosc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our origins. We know so little pre-big bang.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our subjective experiences and their root cause or true nature. All science has done is shown that our experiences correlate to our body/brain. But even religious people already know that much.

Religion does not conflict with science regarding the nature of what is happening to us right now. Where they conflict is on the cause and the results; neither has the upper hand there.


What about saying "we're not certain" takes faith?


so you admit that the existence of a creator or greater scheme of things is just as possible as not?


No. Not being certain and giving god a 50% chance of existing are two totally different things.



so what skews your certainty then?
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 05:31:32
February 19 2009 05:30 GMT
#282
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.
posting on liquid sites in current year
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 19 2009 05:31 GMT
#283
On February 19 2009 14:25 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:58 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:13 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith.



Science requires an equal amount of faith: 100%

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (nosc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our origins. We know so little pre-big bang.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our subjective experiences and their root cause or true nature. All science has done is shown that our experiences correlate to our body/brain. But even religious people already know that much.

Religion does not conflict with science regarding the nature of what is happening to us right now. Where they conflict is on the cause and the results; neither has the upper hand there.

Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet. Also, science conflicts alot not just with pre-big bang, but also with many religious denominations' interpretations of how life exists, why the Earth is where it is, evolution, etc. Science has evidence for all of these, religion only has faith.

(Plus, Christian schools used to teach that the Earth was the center of the universe and the stars were all on a sphere of crystalline perfection rotating around us. Churches had many of Galileo's followers 'disappear' just for challenging this model)

The real difference between science and religion is that science does not conjure theories from anything other than evidence.

The problem with this is that you're lumping all Christians together. Just because a certain group used to teach that doesn't mean we're all incorrect in our beliefs.

Sorry for that parenthetical section, actually, it was pretty irrelevant and didn't bring anything to the table.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 19 2009 05:31 GMT
#284
On February 19 2009 14:29 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:25 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:11 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:58 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:13 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith.



Science requires an equal amount of faith: 100%

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (nosc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our origins. We know so little pre-big bang.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our subjective experiences and their root cause or true nature. All science has done is shown that our experiences correlate to our body/brain. But even religious people already know that much.

Religion does not conflict with science regarding the nature of what is happening to us right now. Where they conflict is on the cause and the results; neither has the upper hand there.


What about saying "we're not certain" takes faith?


so you admit that the existence of a creator or greater scheme of things is just as possible as not?


No. Not being certain and giving god a 50% chance of existing are two totally different things.



so what skews your certainty then?


In what?
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 05:38 GMT
#285
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 05:40 GMT
#286
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 19 2009 05:42 GMT
#287
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.

Show nested quote +

The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?

Show nested quote +

As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 05:42 GMT
#288
On February 19 2009 14:31 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:29 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:25 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:11 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:58 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:13 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith.



Science requires an equal amount of faith: 100%

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (nosc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our origins. We know so little pre-big bang.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our subjective experiences and their root cause or true nature. All science has done is shown that our experiences correlate to our body/brain. But even religious people already know that much.

Religion does not conflict with science regarding the nature of what is happening to us right now. Where they conflict is on the cause and the results; neither has the upper hand there.


What about saying "we're not certain" takes faith?


so you admit that the existence of a creator or greater scheme of things is just as possible as not?


No. Not being certain and giving god a 50% chance of existing are two totally different things.



so what skews your certainty then?


In what?


I took your posts to mean that you see more evidence for a self-made "purely coincidental" universe than one with a creator/god/greater scheme. Was I incorrect?
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 05:45:13
February 19 2009 05:43 GMT
#289
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 05:48 GMT
#290
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 19 2009 05:52 GMT
#291
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.

As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.

How is this possible when the writers of the Bible lived over such different time periods? And also when the Bible is so deep in meaning?
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 05:52:47
February 19 2009 05:52 GMT
#292
On February 19 2009 14:48 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.

i'm not saying we understand existence THAT much more, but every refinement of a theory through an experiment or observation is a definite step closer. newton's laws were not built in a night, they were built in maybe 200 years, starting with copernicus's publications. if everybody had disregarded copernicus's first cracks at the truth, we still might think today that objects like to fall towards the ground because it's the center of the universe, then go to rest.

also, i never mentioned any postulates. but on that note, all of special relativity is based on two postulates, all of general relativity is based on one.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 19 2009 05:53 GMT
#293
On February 19 2009 14:42 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:31 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:29 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:25 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:11 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:58 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:13 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith.



Science requires an equal amount of faith: 100%

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (nosc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our origins. We know so little pre-big bang.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our subjective experiences and their root cause or true nature. All science has done is shown that our experiences correlate to our body/brain. But even religious people already know that much.

Religion does not conflict with science regarding the nature of what is happening to us right now. Where they conflict is on the cause and the results; neither has the upper hand there.


What about saying "we're not certain" takes faith?


so you admit that the existence of a creator or greater scheme of things is just as possible as not?


No. Not being certain and giving god a 50% chance of existing are two totally different things.



so what skews your certainty then?


In what?


I took your posts to mean that you see more evidence for a self-made "purely coincidental" universe than one with a creator/god/greater scheme. Was I incorrect?


Denigrating any possible natural explanations as "purely coincidental"? Get that Ken Ham shit out of here.

I see no evidence for a god and natural explanations have a pretty good track record when compared to their supernatural counterparts. So, yeah, were such a wager possible, I would bet that there is a natural explanation. Am I 100% dogmatically certain? no, I suppose certain types of deities are possible, but again there is no evidence to support the existence of one.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
Lachrymose
Profile Joined February 2008
Australia1928 Posts
February 19 2009 05:54 GMT
#294
On February 19 2009 14:48 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.


i think that you severaly overestimate the understanding of existance that comes with any person making something up.

your tact in your last handful of posts is that all errors in christianity are the work of man, deliberately or otherwise. the problem with this is once you take away the teachings and the scriptures there isnt actually anything left of christianity. christ himself could just as easily be attributed as an error or wrong teaching by the men that followed as the resistance to our current idea of the universe or evolution or anything christianity has been proven wrong about.
~
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 05:55 GMT
#295
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.


I absolutely agree.

Religion does not work like science. We definitely agree on this.

Religion is not about objectivity. Religion is about you, subjectively, and the experiences that you have during your life. This tends to be a problem for scientific minds.

Personally, though, I would take my subjective conclusions over objective analysis any day. This is my life. I experience my life. What happens to me is all that I know.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 19 2009 05:57 GMT
#296
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.

As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.

How is this possible when the writers of the Bible lived over such different time periods? And also when the Bible is so deep in meaning?

The Bible is deep in guidelines, but "meaning" is subjective. Multiple consistent buddhist texts claim to be just as deep, what makes them less right than the Bible?
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Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 05:59 GMT
#297
On February 19 2009 14:53 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:42 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:31 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:29 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:25 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:11 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:58 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:13 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 23:26 TechniQ.UK wrote:

2) As for spirit tuna, just forget it man your the one who is cannot reason and your religious zeal for physics far extends mine.

Hello, science is inherently more reasonable than religion by definition, because religion requires faith.



Science requires an equal amount of faith: 100%

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (nosc jokes plz), science fails miserably.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our origins. We know so little pre-big bang.

Science hasn't solved anything regarding our subjective experiences and their root cause or true nature. All science has done is shown that our experiences correlate to our body/brain. But even religious people already know that much.

Religion does not conflict with science regarding the nature of what is happening to us right now. Where they conflict is on the cause and the results; neither has the upper hand there.


What about saying "we're not certain" takes faith?


so you admit that the existence of a creator or greater scheme of things is just as possible as not?


No. Not being certain and giving god a 50% chance of existing are two totally different things.



so what skews your certainty then?


In what?


I took your posts to mean that you see more evidence for a self-made "purely coincidental" universe than one with a creator/god/greater scheme. Was I incorrect?


Denigrating any possible natural explanations as "purely coincidental"? Get that Ken Ham shit out of here.


how could it not be purely coincidental?


I see no evidence for a god and natural explanations have a pretty good track record when compared to their supernatural counterparts.


supernatural counterparts? that's beside the topic. I don't care about superstition, anyone can just make stuff up.

belief in afterlife and belief that a creator set things in motion is not at all the same as disbelief in any scientific theory.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 19 2009 06:00 GMT
#298
On February 19 2009 12:49 Jerebread wrote:

Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 00:02 IdrA wrote:
On February 18 2009 21:09 IdrA wrote:
non-christians asked their deity and got just as clear an answer
whats up with that?

that is a valid, honest question as well.
all deeply religious people of all denominations share your faith, what makes you right? and you cant rely on 'knowing your god' because everyone else can claim the same thing.


Hi Idra,

What makes my faith right more right than other religions is your question, correct?

Let me begin by saying that the conflict that most people have in their minds is the admirable quality of tolerance for different viewpoints, particularly religious ones, and the position that all views have equal validity. We can be tolerant by respecting the rights of others to hold alternative viewpoints without degenerating into verbal harassment (see above posts), yet still be firmly committed to believing that one point is true.
irrelevant, i asked why yours is correct. whether you tolerate others or not has no bearing on that.


Next, simply put, - my God claims to be God. Now you (the audience in general) might be sitting there thinking, that's a retarded, self-validating statement. But, when you look into the other faiths of the world, you come to find that Jesus is the only one who made such claims.

Now if Jesus claims to be God, then there must be things about his life that back that up, otherwise, he's just a liar, or a crazy guy. Aside from the many miracles that he performed (eg. healing the blind/deaf/mute/terminally ill/raising the dead), the greatest testament to his divinity, is in his resurrection.

Jesus could only have been one of four things: a legend, a liar, a lunatic--or Lord and God. There is so much historical and archeological evidence to support his existence that every reputable historian agrees he was not just a legend. If he were a liar, why would he die for his claim + Show Spoiler +
(Just in case anyone decides to make a comment about suicide bombers, just... lol, two very different things.),
when he could easily have avoided such a cruel death with a few choice words? And, if he were a lunatic, how did he engage in intelligent debates with his opponents or handle the stress of his betrayal and crucifixion while continuing to show a deep love for his antagonists? He said he was Lord and God. The evidence supports that claim.

proof he performed miracles or rose from the dead? the bible is not proof.
without anything supernatural its far more likely hes a liar or crazy than god. it is not that different from the suicide bombers, people have martyred themselves over less than 70 virgins. it is quite possible he genuinly believed his message and wanted to promote it in the best way possible. claiming to be the son of god and allowing yourself to be killed is a pretty good draw, certainly seemed to work well. does not mean he was god, or even that he believed in god, to allow himself to die for a cause.
he could also actually believe he was god, without being god. you dont have to be batshit insane to believe something thats not true. you can be an otherwise fully functional, rational human being while holding an incorrect belief. in fact genuine belief that he was the son of god would encourage him to rational and loving behavior.
now both of these explain the existing evidence without having to postulate a divine entity. why is your solution better?

Idra, I hope that has answered your question, feel free to disagree with it, let me know what you think. I have a couple of questions for you myself, pardon me if you've answered them in previous posts that I have not read, please repost it if you have.

You said in previous posts that you are an agnostic, but for all intents and purpose, an atheist.

I will address you as coming from the atheist perspective if that's ok then?

I would like to know what your take is on this classic teleological argument for a creator?
-Complexity implies a designer.
-The universe is highly complex.
-Therefore, the universe has a designer.

tuna responded to this in depth so i dont really need to, but what about complexity necessitates a designer? evolution via natural selection is the obvious counterpoint. creation aside, evolution cant really be argued with. we can directly observe evolution, in real time, as with the development of drug resistant bacteria. even just observing the process of reproduction from a genetic standpoint, we can see the processes that lead to evolution. extrapolated over time this shows that more complex organisms arose from less complex ones through purely natural processes, not guided by any conciousness.

but as i said, read tuna's posts for a direct address to the 'design of the universe' argument
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 19 2009 06:02 GMT
#299
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.


You needn't read the whole thing, just read the first two chapters.

:|
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 19 2009 06:03 GMT
#300
On February 19 2009 14:55 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.


I absolutely agree.

Religion does not work like science. We definitely agree on this.

Religion is not about objectivity. Religion is about you, subjectively, and the experiences that you have during your life. This tends to be a problem for scientific minds.

Personally, though, I would take my subjective conclusions over objective analysis any day. This is my life. I experience my life. What happens to me is all that I know.

I aim to make these "objective analy[ses]" myself, so in a way, I aim to experience life as well. Following the guidelines of science really isn't that binding. Plus, if I do happen to have a spiritual experience, I won't disregard it, because you're right, faith is different. I just haven't.

THOUGH. I have had 3 dreams in succession, completely consistent with each other, all about the same thing, but different experiences. I am being completely serious when I say this, this happened in 7th grade over three consecutive nights. I was in an amusement park called Pickle World, which consisted of a large castle behind a renaissance fair style market place, with a train going around the whole thing. The castle had suction tubes for transportation, and it was really cool. I stole pickle credits from the market place and was chased by the pickle police through these consecutive dreams, until I escaped into the castle. However, once I had reached the castle, I woke up, and stopped having these dreams, much to my dismay.

<less serious part>I don't really know what this means, but hopefully it's a glimpse into the spirituality of my future. Science hardly provides meaning to a life, so hopefully Pickle World will. </less serious part>
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 06:03:49
February 19 2009 06:03 GMT
#301
On February 19 2009 14:54 Lachrymose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:48 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.


i think that you severaly overestimate the understanding of existance that comes with any person making something up.

your tact in your last handful of posts is that all errors in christianity are the work of man, deliberately or otherwise. the problem with this is once you take away the teachings and the scriptures there isnt actually anything left of christianity. christ himself could just as easily be attributed as an error or wrong teaching by the men that followed as the resistance to our current idea of the universe or evolution or anything christianity has been proven wrong about.



just because names, dates, places, or amounts are wrong does not make a message wrong. if i point to 2 gay guys and say "steve loves carl", but steve is actually named wayne - clearly the information is not accurate but the message is still the same.
Jerebread
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada115 Posts
February 19 2009 06:05 GMT
#302
On February 19 2009 13:22 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 13:18 Jerebread wrote:
Hi SpiritoftheTunA and IdrA,

I realize that what is found below is a rather long read (and probably boring for the rest of you), but you guys seem to be interested in it, and I would like to know what you think of it.

William Lane Craig wrote in his book, Reasonable Faith, that ‘Now a precisely parallel problem attends the Many Worlds Hypothesis is an explanation of fine-tuning. As we have seen, Roger Penrose calculates that the odds of our universe’s low entropy condition obtaining by chance alone are on the order of 1:10^10(123), an inconceivable number. If our universe were but one member of a collection of randomly ordered worlds, then it is vastly more probable that we should be observing a much smaller universe. Adopting the Many Worlds Hypothesis to explain away fine-tuning would thus result in a bizarre illusionism; it is far more probable that all our astronomical, geological, and biological estimates of age are wrong and that the appearance of our large and old universe is a massive illusion. Or again, if our universe is but one member of a World Ensemble, then we ought to be observing highly extraordinary events, like horses popping into and out of existence by random collisions, or perpetual motion machines, since these are vastly more probable than all of nature’s constants and quantities falling by chance into the virtually infinitesimal life-permitting range. Observable universes like those are much more plenteous in the ensemble of universes than worlds like ours and, therefore, ought to be observed by us if the universe were but one member of an ensemble of worlds. Since we do not have such observations, that fact strongly disconfirms the multiverse hypothesis. On atheism, at least, it is therefore highly probable that there is no World Ensemble.’

Just so you know where this guy is coming from, and not some random hobo that just says things, he pursued his undergraduate studies at Wheaton College (B.A. 1971) and graduate studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (M.A. 1974; M.A. 1975), the University of Birmingham (England) (Ph.D. 1977), and the University of Munich (Germany) (D.Theol. 1984). He is also an accomplished writer, authoring over 30 books and over a hundred articles in professional journals.

It's just an example of another theologian cherry picking at the multiple theories in physics to find things he wants to use to imply a creator. The calculations you mention are nowhere near widely accepted, and is one of many theories. Most theories don't imply improbability of the low entropy condition, and I suggest you do research yourself on the subject. Just because he studied doesn't mean he framed it in a sensible light. Ask any physics Ph.D (preferably Cosmology) if his conclusion is viable, and they'll tell you the truth (it's far-fetched as hell and cherry picking theories). His doctorate was in Philosophy, and his degrees were in theology, so why would you mark him as a credible source in physics?

Ask any Harvard law graduate how the moon makes the tides and he'll give you, with 100% confidence, the completely wrong answer of "gravity pulls the water closer to the moon." In actuality, the differential gravity between the sides and center of the earth is what creates the tides. Just because somebody is highly educated doesn't mean they're right. Again, most physicists won't go around pretending to be well-read theologians, theologians should truly study physics comprehensively before they should be allowed to present theories in order to advance their own creationist agendas. This guy clearly didn't, especially considering how much time he spent getting his other degrees.

Show me one article of his that got published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal and I will retract all of these statements.


http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521842709

The Cambridge Companion to Atheism
Series: Cambridge Companions to Philosophy
Edited by Michael Martin
Boston University
+ Show Spoiler +
In this volume, eighteen of the world’s leading scholars present original essays on various aspects of atheism: its history, both ancient and modern, defense and implications. The topic is examined in terms of its implications for a wide range of disciplines including philosophy, religion, feminism, postmodernism, sociology and psychology. In its defense, both classical and contemporary theistic arguments are criticized, and, the argument from evil, and impossibility arguments, along with a non religious basis for morality are defended. These essays give a broad understanding of atheism and a lucid introduction to this controversial topic.


Will this suffice? Feel free to dig around his site www.reasonablefaith.org for more of his scholarly articles.

On February 19 2009 13:30 Mindcrime wrote:

White, yolk, and shell? When you put it that way, it certainly sounds like tritheism to me!

It seems rather odd that such a major tenant of a majority of Christian sects was never explicitly stated anywhere in the Bible.

Show nested quote +
There is so much historical and archeological evidence to support his existence that every reputable historian agrees he was not just a legend.


Historical and archaeological evidence? Like what? I've never heard of any archaeological evidence of any sort, and the only historical accounts of Jesus come from historians who wrote many decades later and very plausibly could have gotten all of their information on the subject from Christians.



Hi Mindcrime,

Hm, I don't know if you read my post, but the egg analogy was of how three individual parts constitute an egg.

Indeed, you are correct, the trinity is never explicitly stated anywhere in the Bible. It is a concept that theologians have formed, due to numerous passages in the Bible that support it.

I am hesitant in linking to wiki, as no doubt some of you might say it is so easily changed, etc., but I have read it through and it appears to be sound.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity#References_in_scripture

Now, for the existence of Jesus.

There is more written about Jesus, from both 'Christian' and 'secular' sources, than any other person in history. For the amount of evidence compiled, you would have to first doubt the existance of Ceasar, Alexander the Great, etc.

Aside from the four Gospels (practically biographies), which were written around 30 years after Jesus' death, there are numerous accounts from Roman historians.

There are passages relevant to Christianity in the works of four major non-Christian writers of the late 1st and early 2nd centuries – Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger.

It is actually surprising, the amount that is written about Jesus. You have to remember that at that time, this was the height of the Roman Empire. Who would be concerned about a guy that was crucified, in some remote location of the kingdom?
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 06:05 GMT
#303
On February 19 2009 15:03 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:55 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.


I absolutely agree.

Religion does not work like science. We definitely agree on this.

Religion is not about objectivity. Religion is about you, subjectively, and the experiences that you have during your life. This tends to be a problem for scientific minds.

Personally, though, I would take my subjective conclusions over objective analysis any day. This is my life. I experience my life. What happens to me is all that I know.

I aim to make these "objective analy[ses]" myself, so in a way, I aim to experience life as well. Following the guidelines of science really isn't that binding. Plus, if I do happen to have a spiritual experience, I won't disregard it, because you're right, faith is different. I just haven't.

THOUGH. I have had 3 dreams in succession, completely consistent with each other, all about the same thing, but different experiences. I am being completely serious when I say this, this happened in 7th grade over three consecutive nights. I was in an amusement park called Pickle World, which consisted of a large castle behind a renaissance fair style market place, with a train going around the whole thing. The castle had suction tubes for transportation, and it was really cool. I stole pickle credits from the market place and was chased by the pickle police through these consecutive dreams, until I escaped into the castle. However, once I had reached the castle, I woke up, and stopped having these dreams, much to my dismay.

<less serious part>I don't really know what this means, but hopefully it's a glimpse into the spirituality of my future. Science hardly provides meaning to a life, so hopefully Pickle World will. </less serious part>


i think that the castle represented the kingdom of heaven and the dreams represented your worldly desires.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 06:12:25
February 19 2009 06:07 GMT
#304
On February 19 2009 15:03 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:54 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:48 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.


i think that you severaly overestimate the understanding of existance that comes with any person making something up.

your tact in your last handful of posts is that all errors in christianity are the work of man, deliberately or otherwise. the problem with this is once you take away the teachings and the scriptures there isnt actually anything left of christianity. christ himself could just as easily be attributed as an error or wrong teaching by the men that followed as the resistance to our current idea of the universe or evolution or anything christianity has been proven wrong about.



just because names, dates, places, or amounts are wrong does not make a message wrong. if i point to 2 gay guys and say "steve loves carl", but steve is actually named wayne - clearly the information is not accurate but the message is still the same.

there's no way to verify the message itself though, that's where the faith comes in. what if it's not an error of name, but an error of procedure? what if salvation's not about accepting and thanking jesus, it's about following after his works, and the sin part was put in to simply strengthen jesus' standing? who knows???
posting on liquid sites in current year
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 19 2009 06:07 GMT
#305
On February 19 2009 15:02 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.


You needn't read the whole thing, just read the first two chapters.

:|

If you can point out your proof I'd be more than happy to look over it -_-
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
LTT
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Shakuras1095 Posts
February 19 2009 06:08 GMT
#306
On February 19 2009 15:03 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:54 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:48 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.


i think that you severaly overestimate the understanding of existance that comes with any person making something up.

your tact in your last handful of posts is that all errors in christianity are the work of man, deliberately or otherwise. the problem with this is once you take away the teachings and the scriptures there isnt actually anything left of christianity. christ himself could just as easily be attributed as an error or wrong teaching by the men that followed as the resistance to our current idea of the universe or evolution or anything christianity has been proven wrong about.



just because names, dates, places, or amounts are wrong does not make a message wrong. if i point to 2 gay guys and say "steve loves carl", but steve is actually named wayne - clearly the information is not accurate but the message is still the same.


Well, it becaomes a problem when it is a message from/written by a perfect deity. If you pointed and said "God told me that steve loves carl" it would be a closer example.

On a lighter note...names, dates, places and amounts?

"We need to correct something. When we said Jesus performed hundreds of miracles 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, we really meant that Bob performed 0 miracles 20 minutes ago out back." ;P
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 06:14:20
February 19 2009 06:09 GMT
#307
On February 19 2009 15:05 Jerebread wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 13:22 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 13:18 Jerebread wrote:
Hi SpiritoftheTunA and IdrA,

I realize that what is found below is a rather long read (and probably boring for the rest of you), but you guys seem to be interested in it, and I would like to know what you think of it.

William Lane Craig wrote in his book, Reasonable Faith, that ‘Now a precisely parallel problem attends the Many Worlds Hypothesis is an explanation of fine-tuning. As we have seen, Roger Penrose calculates that the odds of our universe’s low entropy condition obtaining by chance alone are on the order of 1:10^10(123), an inconceivable number. If our universe were but one member of a collection of randomly ordered worlds, then it is vastly more probable that we should be observing a much smaller universe. Adopting the Many Worlds Hypothesis to explain away fine-tuning would thus result in a bizarre illusionism; it is far more probable that all our astronomical, geological, and biological estimates of age are wrong and that the appearance of our large and old universe is a massive illusion. Or again, if our universe is but one member of a World Ensemble, then we ought to be observing highly extraordinary events, like horses popping into and out of existence by random collisions, or perpetual motion machines, since these are vastly more probable than all of nature’s constants and quantities falling by chance into the virtually infinitesimal life-permitting range. Observable universes like those are much more plenteous in the ensemble of universes than worlds like ours and, therefore, ought to be observed by us if the universe were but one member of an ensemble of worlds. Since we do not have such observations, that fact strongly disconfirms the multiverse hypothesis. On atheism, at least, it is therefore highly probable that there is no World Ensemble.’

Just so you know where this guy is coming from, and not some random hobo that just says things, he pursued his undergraduate studies at Wheaton College (B.A. 1971) and graduate studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (M.A. 1974; M.A. 1975), the University of Birmingham (England) (Ph.D. 1977), and the University of Munich (Germany) (D.Theol. 1984). He is also an accomplished writer, authoring over 30 books and over a hundred articles in professional journals.

It's just an example of another theologian cherry picking at the multiple theories in physics to find things he wants to use to imply a creator. The calculations you mention are nowhere near widely accepted, and is one of many theories. Most theories don't imply improbability of the low entropy condition, and I suggest you do research yourself on the subject. Just because he studied doesn't mean he framed it in a sensible light. Ask any physics Ph.D (preferably Cosmology) if his conclusion is viable, and they'll tell you the truth (it's far-fetched as hell and cherry picking theories). His doctorate was in Philosophy, and his degrees were in theology, so why would you mark him as a credible source in physics?

Ask any Harvard law graduate how the moon makes the tides and he'll give you, with 100% confidence, the completely wrong answer of "gravity pulls the water closer to the moon." In actuality, the differential gravity between the sides and center of the earth is what creates the tides. Just because somebody is highly educated doesn't mean they're right. Again, most physicists won't go around pretending to be well-read theologians, theologians should truly study physics comprehensively before they should be allowed to present theories in order to advance their own creationist agendas. This guy clearly didn't, especially considering how much time he spent getting his other degrees.

Show me one article of his that got published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal and I will retract all of these statements.


http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521842709

The Cambridge Companion to Atheism
Series: Cambridge Companions to Philosophy
Edited by Michael Martin
Boston University
+ Show Spoiler +
In this volume, eighteen of the world’s leading scholars present original essays on various aspects of atheism: its history, both ancient and modern, defense and implications. The topic is examined in terms of its implications for a wide range of disciplines including philosophy, religion, feminism, postmodernism, sociology and psychology. In its defense, both classical and contemporary theistic arguments are criticized, and, the argument from evil, and impossibility arguments, along with a non religious basis for morality are defended. These essays give a broad understanding of atheism and a lucid introduction to this controversial topic.


Will this suffice? Feel free to dig around his site www.reasonablefaith.org for more of his scholarly articles.

no, actually, because it's a philosophical journal, and it's reviewing peers could not accurately verify anything scientific. scientific journals work in a different way from literary or philosophical journals, because every claim made is checked by multiple scientists specializing in the area in which the claim is made.
posting on liquid sites in current year
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 06:10:21
February 19 2009 06:09 GMT
#308
edit: mispost, disregard.
posting on liquid sites in current year
LTT
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Shakuras1095 Posts
February 19 2009 06:10 GMT
#309
On February 19 2009 15:07 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:02 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.


You needn't read the whole thing, just read the first two chapters.

:|

If you can point out your proof I'd be more than happy to look over it -_-


He is referring to the multiple descriptions of the origin of man in the first 2 chapters of Genesis.


BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 19 2009 06:11 GMT
#310
On February 19 2009 15:07 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:03 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:54 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:48 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.


i think that you severaly overestimate the understanding of existance that comes with any person making something up.

your tact in your last handful of posts is that all errors in christianity are the work of man, deliberately or otherwise. the problem with this is once you take away the teachings and the scriptures there isnt actually anything left of christianity. christ himself could just as easily be attributed as an error or wrong teaching by the men that followed as the resistance to our current idea of the universe or evolution or anything christianity has been proven wrong about.



just because names, dates, places, or amounts are wrong does not make a message wrong. if i point to 2 gay guys and say "steve loves carl", but steve is actually named wayne - clearly the information is not accurate but the message is still the same.

there's no way to verify the message itself though, that's where the faith comes in. what if it's not an error of name, but an error of procedure? what if salvation's not about accepting and thanking jesus, it's about following after his works, and the sin part was put in to simply strengthen jesus' standing? who knows???

But... the Bible talks specifically about salvation. It's not all left up to interpretation.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 19 2009 06:12 GMT
#311
On February 19 2009 15:10 LTT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:07 BanZu wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:02 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.


You needn't read the whole thing, just read the first two chapters.

:|

If you can point out your proof I'd be more than happy to look over it -_-


He is referring to the multiple descriptions of the origin of man in the first 2 chapters of Genesis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocgcj-C_nIw

Do you mind telling me what these multiple descriptions of the origin of man are? I'm not aware of them
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
Lachrymose
Profile Joined February 2008
Australia1928 Posts
February 19 2009 06:14 GMT
#312
On February 19 2009 15:03 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:54 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:48 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.


i think that you severaly overestimate the understanding of existance that comes with any person making something up.

your tact in your last handful of posts is that all errors in christianity are the work of man, deliberately or otherwise. the problem with this is once you take away the teachings and the scriptures there isnt actually anything left of christianity. christ himself could just as easily be attributed as an error or wrong teaching by the men that followed as the resistance to our current idea of the universe or evolution or anything christianity has been proven wrong about.



just because names, dates, places, or amounts are wrong does not make a message wrong. if i point to 2 gay guys and say "steve loves carl", but steve is actually named wayne - clearly the information is not accurate but the message is still the same.


the names, dates and places can be wrong. the thing is, so can the message. why should i believe you that wayne (or steve) actually loves carl. how do you know? because somebody told you when you were young and you visit a building every sunday where everyone sits around while an old man reads from a book about how wayne loves steve.

your message has no more truth to it than the information you see as unimportant.

if you continue to move in this direction you're not even supporting for christianity, just non-specific spirituality.
~
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 06:15 GMT
#313
On February 19 2009 15:07 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:03 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:54 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:48 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.


i think that you severaly overestimate the understanding of existance that comes with any person making something up.

your tact in your last handful of posts is that all errors in christianity are the work of man, deliberately or otherwise. the problem with this is once you take away the teachings and the scriptures there isnt actually anything left of christianity. christ himself could just as easily be attributed as an error or wrong teaching by the men that followed as the resistance to our current idea of the universe or evolution or anything christianity has been proven wrong about.



just because names, dates, places, or amounts are wrong does not make a message wrong. if i point to 2 gay guys and say "steve loves carl", but steve is actually named wayne - clearly the information is not accurate but the message is still the same.

there's no way to verify the message itself though, that's where the faith comes in. what if it's not an error of name, but an error of procedure? what if salvation's not about accepting and thanking jesus, it's about following after his works, and the sin part was put in to simply strengthen jesus' standing? who knows???


yes again I definitely agree with you. this is why I think organized religion is such a problem. the entire thing gets changed around and traditionalized and dumbed down until it's all beside the point. it even happens with buddhism.


however, it makes me sad when some people can't see what religion based on genuine honesty with oneself and genuine investigate has to offer. even if it ends up being wrong, spirituality is not a bad thing for mankind. and so many scientists dismiss it offhand which is just so so arrogant.

(not saying this to anyone in particular)
LTT
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Shakuras1095 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 06:17:37
February 19 2009 06:16 GMT
#314
On February 19 2009 15:12 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:10 LTT wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:07 BanZu wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:02 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.


You needn't read the whole thing, just read the first two chapters.

:|

If you can point out your proof I'd be more than happy to look over it -_-


He is referring to the multiple descriptions of the origin of man in the first 2 chapters of Genesis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocgcj-C_nIw

Do you mind telling me what these multiple descriptions of the origin of man are? I'm not aware of them


http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 06:21:47
February 19 2009 06:17 GMT
#315
On February 19 2009 15:05 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:03 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:55 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.


I absolutely agree.

Religion does not work like science. We definitely agree on this.

Religion is not about objectivity. Religion is about you, subjectively, and the experiences that you have during your life. This tends to be a problem for scientific minds.

Personally, though, I would take my subjective conclusions over objective analysis any day. This is my life. I experience my life. What happens to me is all that I know.

I aim to make these "objective analy[ses]" myself, so in a way, I aim to experience life as well. Following the guidelines of science really isn't that binding. Plus, if I do happen to have a spiritual experience, I won't disregard it, because you're right, faith is different. I just haven't.

THOUGH. I have had 3 dreams in succession, completely consistent with each other, all about the same thing, but different experiences. I am being completely serious when I say this, this happened in 7th grade over three consecutive nights. I was in an amusement park called Pickle World, which consisted of a large castle behind a renaissance fair style market place, with a train going around the whole thing. The castle had suction tubes for transportation, and it was really cool. I stole pickle credits from the market place and was chased by the pickle police through these consecutive dreams, until I escaped into the castle. However, once I had reached the castle, I woke up, and stopped having these dreams, much to my dismay.

<less serious part>I don't really know what this means, but hopefully it's a glimpse into the spirituality of my future. Science hardly provides meaning to a life, so hopefully Pickle World will. </less serious part>


i think that the castle represented the kingdom of heaven and the dreams represented your worldly desires.

hm

that actually works.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 06:18 GMT
#316
On February 19 2009 15:08 LTT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:03 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:54 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:48 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.


i think that you severaly overestimate the understanding of existance that comes with any person making something up.

your tact in your last handful of posts is that all errors in christianity are the work of man, deliberately or otherwise. the problem with this is once you take away the teachings and the scriptures there isnt actually anything left of christianity. christ himself could just as easily be attributed as an error or wrong teaching by the men that followed as the resistance to our current idea of the universe or evolution or anything christianity has been proven wrong about.



just because names, dates, places, or amounts are wrong does not make a message wrong. if i point to 2 gay guys and say "steve loves carl", but steve is actually named wayne - clearly the information is not accurate but the message is still the same.


Well, it becaomes a problem when it is a message from/written by a perfect deity. If you pointed and said "God told me that steve loves carl" it would be a closer example.

On a lighter note...names, dates, places and amounts?

"We need to correct something. When we said Jesus performed hundreds of miracles 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, we really meant that Bob performed 0 miracles 20 minutes ago out back." ;P


lol

anyways I agree, I think that part of the problem is that the teachings tend to not only come "from god through man", but generally then through yet another man or even more.

wow i think that was poorly worded again lol, but you'll probably understand
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 06:20:02
February 19 2009 06:19 GMT
#317
On February 19 2009 15:08 LTT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:03 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:54 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:48 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.


i think that you severaly overestimate the understanding of existance that comes with any person making something up.

your tact in your last handful of posts is that all errors in christianity are the work of man, deliberately or otherwise. the problem with this is once you take away the teachings and the scriptures there isnt actually anything left of christianity. christ himself could just as easily be attributed as an error or wrong teaching by the men that followed as the resistance to our current idea of the universe or evolution or anything christianity has been proven wrong about.



just because names, dates, places, or amounts are wrong does not make a message wrong. if i point to 2 gay guys and say "steve loves carl", but steve is actually named wayne - clearly the information is not accurate but the message is still the same.


Well, it becaomes a problem when it is a message from/written by a perfect deity. If you pointed and said "God told me that steve loves carl" it would be a closer example.

On a lighter note...names, dates, places and amounts?

"We need to correct something. When we said Jesus performed hundreds of miracles 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, we really meant that Bob performed 0 miracles 20 minutes ago out back." ;P

hahahahahhahahahahhahahaa i lol'd
posting on liquid sites in current year
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 06:21:24
February 19 2009 06:21 GMT
#318
fuck ikeep hitting quote instead of edit, disregard
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 06:22:17
February 19 2009 06:21 GMT
#319
On February 19 2009 15:14 Lachrymose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:03 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:54 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:48 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.


i think that you severaly overestimate the understanding of existance that comes with any person making something up.

your tact in your last handful of posts is that all errors in christianity are the work of man, deliberately or otherwise. the problem with this is once you take away the teachings and the scriptures there isnt actually anything left of christianity. christ himself could just as easily be attributed as an error or wrong teaching by the men that followed as the resistance to our current idea of the universe or evolution or anything christianity has been proven wrong about.



just because names, dates, places, or amounts are wrong does not make a message wrong. if i point to 2 gay guys and say "steve loves carl", but steve is actually named wayne - clearly the information is not accurate but the message is still the same.


the names, dates and places can be wrong. the thing is, so can the message. why should i believe you that wayne (or steve) actually loves carl. how do you know? because somebody told you when you were young and you visit a building every sunday where everyone sits around while an old man reads from a book about how wayne loves steve.


no, because it's the conclusion I have reached by examining the course of my own life.

well, I haven't reached that conclusion. but others have.


if you continue to move in this direction you're not even supporting for christianity, just non-specific spirituality.


that is what I have been attempting to support from the start
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 19 2009 06:25 GMT
#320
On February 19 2009 15:05 Jerebread wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 13:30 Mindcrime wrote:

White, yolk, and shell? When you put it that way, it certainly sounds like tritheism to me!

It seems rather odd that such a major tenant of a majority of Christian sects was never explicitly stated anywhere in the Bible.

There is so much historical and archeological evidence to support his existence that every reputable historian agrees he was not just a legend.


Historical and archaeological evidence? Like what? I've never heard of any archaeological evidence of any sort, and the only historical accounts of Jesus come from historians who wrote many decades later and very plausibly could have gotten all of their information on the subject from Christians.



Hi Mindcrime,

Hm, I don't know if you read my post, but the egg analogy was of how three individual parts constitute an egg.

Indeed, you are correct, the trinity is never explicitly stated anywhere in the Bible. It is a concept that theologians have formed, due to numerous passages in the Bible that support it.

I am hesitant in linking to wiki, as no doubt some of you might say it is so easily changed, etc., but I have read it through and it appears to be sound.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity#References_in_scripture


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism#Scriptures_cited_as_being_in_opposition_to_the_Trinity

:|

Now, for the existence of Jesus.

There is more written about Jesus, from both 'Christian' and 'secular' sources, than any other person in history. For the amount of evidence compiled, you would have to first doubt the existance of Ceasar, Alexander the Great, etc.

Aside from the four Gospels (practically biographies), which were written around 30 years after Jesus' death, there are numerous accounts from Roman historians.

There are passages relevant to Christianity in the works of four major non-Christian writers of the late 1st and early 2nd centuries – Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger.

It is actually surprising, the amount that is written about Jesus. You have to remember that at that time, this was the height of the Roman Empire. Who would be concerned about a guy that was crucified, in some remote location of the kingdom?


The passage attributed to Josephus is widely acknowledged as a fake that was inserted later on. Tacitus? Seeing as how he gets Pilate's title wrong, I think it is safe to assume that he's not using accurate Roman records and could very probably be basing his words on what he had heard from Christians. Suetonius? Only if you buy that "Chrestus" was somehow a misspelled "Christus," despite the fact that Chrestus was a relatively common Greek name. Pliny tells us absolutely nothing about the historical Jesus, and this, again, could have come from Christian sources.

Alexander the Great, unlike Jesus, is not a religious figure. There would be absolutely no motive to claim Alexander the Great existed if, in fact, he did not.

I'm still waiting for that archaeological evidence.


That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 19 2009 06:30 GMT
#321
On February 19 2009 13:55 NeVeR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 09:46 IdrA wrote:
On February 19 2009 05:07 NeVeR wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:24 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 17 2009 15:23 Mada_Jiang wrote:
For all those who are reading or contributing to this thread, I strongly encourage you to communicate with God him self and get your answers. If he is a loving father he wouldn't leave you in the dark. Rather than reading through how each individual think about religion, step away from that and ask God to reveal him self to you.

For those of you who are getting all worked up arguing with each other and treating each other like you would never do to each other in real life.... I have one suggestion:

Rather than debating over whether heat waves exists, put your self there and feel the heat it self. Once again my email is oni_jiang@hotmail.com. I wont tell you what I think, if you are interested, I will share with you my experiences with God.

I pray that peace will be with you. ^.^

you are stupid. i will not explicate further because you would simply disregard it. peace to you too though.


Wow, dude. The guy offers his hand out to everyone here in a completely friendly and polite manner and you have to insult him and his beliefs? Please stop being a douchebag.

In my opinion, by the way, you are only doing a disservice to humanity by arguing against religion, since, regardless of whether or not it is true, it is necessary for the world all the same.

how is it necessary?
certainly people can gain comfort from it, that doesnt mean its necessary or that its a net good. and one could argue that the comfort itself is not a good thing if its based on false premises.

and he deserves to be insulted, hes refusing to answer any post that legitly challenges his stance.


Like you said, the comfort (though I wouldn't use that word) it gives people is significant. To be more specific, it gives people a sense of purpose and serves as a foundation for morality. It also serves as a deterrent to crime. I believe that the benefits of religion greatly outweigh the harm it is capable of.

So why religion instead of mere individual spirituality? Religion creates a widespread community of believers that reinforces the faith of the individual and allows him to experience it in a social setting. We as human beings are social creatures, after all, and when we're able to share our beliefs or interests with others who feel similarly, we are all the more strengthened in those feelings. If you were to pursue the argument that "comfort itself is not a good thing if it's based on false premises", I would perhaps ask you what you believe the purpose of life should be. If you tell me that it is happiness - well, there's a contradiction.

Actually though, I personally find this common theory or notion of happiness as the aim of life to be somewhat disagreeable, for reasons I won't go into here.

i personally dont think the need for spirituality is that great, it only seems that way because everyone is used to having spirituality as the 'greater meaning' in life. the major problem i have with religion it isnt really a choice. i dont know the statistics, but a vast, vast, vast majority of people simply end up in the religion their parents brought them up in. they have never experienced a life without religion, they have never looked for their own purpose in life, their own means to happiness. they simply accept that god and the afterlife fills that role and leave it at that.
now, if you raise someone entirely unbiased, simply present the world as it is (unattainable ideal, but just for the sake of argument) to them, and they choose a religion as the world view they like and the way of life that makes them most comfortable, thats fine. the problem starts when you remove a persons choice. and you are removing it by indoctrinating them as children, so thoroughly that even if you were to explain to them that this is just what their parents believed, and their parents only believed it cuz their parents believed it, and on and on, and that there was no actual reason to believe it... and that plenty of people live happy lives without believing it, they still wouldnt want to give it up because its simply what theyre used to and they would feel lost without it, because theyve never had the opportunity to try anything else.

so no, i dont believe religion is necessary to keep people happy or content. i think it can fill that purpose, in a very unsatisfying way, but the dangers of religion, the ones i have listed above and the more real-world dangers of political and social abuse, as well as religious wars and whatnot, far outweigh it. especially given that there are obviously other options. not every atheist is suicidal. that should say something about the necessity of religion for happiness.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Lachrymose
Profile Joined February 2008
Australia1928 Posts
February 19 2009 06:31 GMT
#322
On February 19 2009 15:21 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:14 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:03 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:54 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:48 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

On February 19 2009 14:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Science's theories still work upon observable evidence though, theories aren't just "theories" in the colloquial sense, they're mounds and mounds of evidence that haven't been disproven yet.


Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.


i think that you severaly overestimate the understanding of existance that comes with any person making something up.

your tact in your last handful of posts is that all errors in christianity are the work of man, deliberately or otherwise. the problem with this is once you take away the teachings and the scriptures there isnt actually anything left of christianity. christ himself could just as easily be attributed as an error or wrong teaching by the men that followed as the resistance to our current idea of the universe or evolution or anything christianity has been proven wrong about.



just because names, dates, places, or amounts are wrong does not make a message wrong. if i point to 2 gay guys and say "steve loves carl", but steve is actually named wayne - clearly the information is not accurate but the message is still the same.


the names, dates and places can be wrong. the thing is, so can the message. why should i believe you that wayne (or steve) actually loves carl. how do you know? because somebody told you when you were young and you visit a building every sunday where everyone sits around while an old man reads from a book about how wayne loves steve.


no, because it's the conclusion I have reached by examining the course of my own life.

well, I haven't reached that conclusion. but others have.

Show nested quote +

if you continue to move in this direction you're not even supporting for christianity, just non-specific spirituality.


that is what I have been attempting to support from the start


yes all is clear. :p

if you're not talking about the christian truth but rather your own truth fashioned from your own experiences then your reasoning is more sound. you should have made that more clear at the start, or maybe i just missed it. >_<

so anyway, you believe in a god then? you believe the universe to have been designed? you dont believe in fatalism? im curious to know what kind of events in ones life would lead them to beliefs like these, if they arent indoctrined by a church or religion.
~
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 06:34:26
February 19 2009 06:34 GMT
#323
On February 19 2009 15:30 IdrA wrote:
so no, i dont believe religion is necessary to keep people happy or content. i think it can fill that purpose, in a very unsatisfying way, but the dangers of religion, the ones i have listed above and the more real-world dangers of political and social abuse, as well as religious wars and whatnot, far outweigh it. especially given that there are obviously other options. not every atheist is suicidal. that should say something about the necessity of religion for happiness.

Yeah, I'm a pretty happy agnostic.+ Show Spoiler +
who obviously doesn't spend 3 hours a day arguing religion on the internet.
I love life, and I won't deny it. I just don't think my meaning has to be defined by an established system.
posting on liquid sites in current year
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 19 2009 06:36 GMT
#324
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.

As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.

How is this possible when the writers of the Bible lived over such different time periods? And also when the Bible is so deep in meaning?

how did god not know the value of pi?
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 19 2009 06:38 GMT
#325
On February 19 2009 15:36 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.

As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.

How is this possible when the writers of the Bible lived over such different time periods? And also when the Bible is so deep in meaning?

how did god not know the value of pi?


Everyone knows that pi is totally equal to three.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 06:42:43
February 19 2009 06:40 GMT
#326
On February 19 2009 15:38 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:36 IdrA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.

As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.

How is this possible when the writers of the Bible lived over such different time periods? And also when the Bible is so deep in meaning?

how did god not know the value of pi?


Everyone knows that pi is totally equal to three.

naw its just that the dude who transcribed god's words got kinda lazy

and i dont think decimal notation existed

obviously lost in translation, but that doesnt happen too often in the bible
+ Show Spoiler +
right?


plus, we should be thankful, the bible would be way too big if the scribe got pi right.
posting on liquid sites in current year
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 19 2009 06:53 GMT
#327
On February 19 2009 15:36 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.

As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.

How is this possible when the writers of the Bible lived over such different time periods? And also when the Bible is so deep in meaning?

how did god not know the value of pi?

Wait, what? lol
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 19 2009 06:54 GMT
#328
On February 19 2009 15:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:38 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:36 IdrA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.

As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.

How is this possible when the writers of the Bible lived over such different time periods? And also when the Bible is so deep in meaning?

how did god not know the value of pi?


Everyone knows that pi is totally equal to three.

naw its just that the dude who transcribed god's words got kinda lazy

and i dont think decimal notation existed

obviously lost in translation, but that doesnt happen too often in the bible
+ Show Spoiler +
right?


plus, we should be thankful, the bible would be way too big if the scribe got pi right.


Pi isn't mentioned directly. The verse in question gives us a circumference and diameter that don't match up.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 19 2009 06:55 GMT
#329
On February 19 2009 15:53 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:36 IdrA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.

As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.

How is this possible when the writers of the Bible lived over such different time periods? And also when the Bible is so deep in meaning?

how did god not know the value of pi?

Wait, what? lol

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Bible_Commentary/Pi_In_The_Bible.html
posting on liquid sites in current year
LTT
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Shakuras1095 Posts
February 19 2009 06:55 GMT
#330
On February 19 2009 15:53 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:36 IdrA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.

As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.

How is this possible when the writers of the Bible lived over such different time periods? And also when the Bible is so deep in meaning?

how did god not know the value of pi?

Wait, what? lol


http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1kg/7.html#23

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2chr/4.html#2
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 19 2009 06:56 GMT
#331
On February 19 2009 15:54 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:38 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:36 IdrA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.

As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.

How is this possible when the writers of the Bible lived over such different time periods? And also when the Bible is so deep in meaning?

how did god not know the value of pi?


Everyone knows that pi is totally equal to three.

naw its just that the dude who transcribed god's words got kinda lazy

and i dont think decimal notation existed

obviously lost in translation, but that doesnt happen too often in the bible
+ Show Spoiler +
right?


plus, we should be thankful, the bible would be way too big if the scribe got pi right.


Pi isn't mentioned directly. The verse in question gives us a circumference and diameter that don't match up.

well that circumference would've been a bitch to write as well
posting on liquid sites in current year
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 19 2009 07:00 GMT
#332
On February 19 2009 15:56 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:54 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:38 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:36 IdrA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:27 travis wrote:
ok well do you not think it's possible that the point is not to tell people the nature of this material world (which should be completely irrelevant to the faith itself), but rather to illustrate various messages?

and in doing so, fallible people who are conveying those messages make errors in their examples because of ignorance regarding the nature of this material world? because it has nothing to do with the faith itself?



man that was worded kind of poorly but hopefully you understand me

so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.

As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.

How is this possible when the writers of the Bible lived over such different time periods? And also when the Bible is so deep in meaning?

how did god not know the value of pi?


Everyone knows that pi is totally equal to three.

naw its just that the dude who transcribed god's words got kinda lazy

and i dont think decimal notation existed

obviously lost in translation, but that doesnt happen too often in the bible
+ Show Spoiler +
right?


plus, we should be thankful, the bible would be way too big if the scribe got pi right.


Pi isn't mentioned directly. The verse in question gives us a circumference and diameter that don't match up.

well that circumference would've been a bitch to write as well


Meh, 31 would have been perfectly acceptable.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
February 19 2009 07:01 GMT
#333
On February 19 2009 16:00 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:56 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:54 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:38 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:36 IdrA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:52 BanZu wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:43 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:40 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:30 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
[quote]
so many people are fallible, and psychology contends that most will gravitate towards the most available interpretation of the bible. some won't learn at all about evolution, and many will deny it after learning of it, suggesting that their interpretations of the bible are wrong. the fallibility and unreliability (unreliability to produce consistent interpretations) of the faith's teachings, to me, implies there's something wrong with the faith.


does any religion exist independent of the people who teach it and pass it on? (no)

so how can it be the fault of the religion rather than the fault of the people? people teach science incorrectly all the time as well.

yeah but with science, there's a much stronger, cohesive consensus on what is accepted as correct to the level of being a "law," and what is correct to the level of being a "theory"

no such consensus with religion. i mean, what if one of the four writers of the gospels majorly fucked up and conveyed the wrong information? how could you test that? experiments in science must be repeatable. a writer of a gospel... is not repeatable.

As far as I know, the Bible agrees with itself (as in every single part).

But I can't say this 100% assuredly because I haven't read the whole thing nor studied the whole thing.

How is this possible when the writers of the Bible lived over such different time periods? And also when the Bible is so deep in meaning?

how did god not know the value of pi?


Everyone knows that pi is totally equal to three.

naw its just that the dude who transcribed god's words got kinda lazy

and i dont think decimal notation existed

obviously lost in translation, but that doesnt happen too often in the bible
+ Show Spoiler +
right?


plus, we should be thankful, the bible would be way too big if the scribe got pi right.


Pi isn't mentioned directly. The verse in question gives us a circumference and diameter that don't match up.

well that circumference would've been a bitch to write as well


Meh, 31 would have been perfectly acceptable.

same order of magnitude, good enough for government work mang
posting on liquid sites in current year
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
February 19 2009 07:05 GMT
#334
On February 19 2009 15:31 Lachrymose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2009 15:21 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:14 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 19 2009 15:03 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:54 Lachrymose wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:48 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:38 travis wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On February 19 2009 14:22 travis wrote:

[quote]

Science has done a good job of revealing how causation works regarding most scales that are relevant to us. But when it comes to solving the beginning, the end, the most macro and the most micro (no sc jokes plz), science fails miserably.


The end definitely has alot of evidence towards heat death, look it up.

I have and there certainly seems to be no consesus whatsoever.


The most macro, I assume, is cosmology, which is a huge topic, please study it, it's pretty interesting. The most micro has quantum physics, which has observational evidence going to past 12 significant figures of agreeing with the models (which is more than even the universal law of gravitation). Even microer than that would be string theory, and perhaps the Higgs model of mass.


does any part of this invalidate my point?


As for the beginning, there are several theories that would allow a glimpse past the black hole, if they turned out to be true. For example, Loop Quantum Gravity implies that a singularity cannot exist, and thus there was a minimum size of the universe, a "hole" one could supposedly look through. If the string theory with parallel universes on parallel branes proves true, then the existence of multiple universes could help us look more towards the origin of them all. It's not a barren subject that has "failed miserably."


i never said it failed miserably. I said that it currently fails miserably. Science always has theories. And once it solves a problem, another has always replaced it. Maybe science will eventually solve everything. But right now it isn't even close. Listing off a bunch of theories means nothing to me.

Well of course it means nothing to you, you haven't checked the evidence and calculations consistent towards them. If a theory is made to be consistent with existing evidence, and then makes a prediction consistent with itself that can be observed, then it's already as strong as fuck. In science, "theory" is precluded by mounds and mounds of evidence, as I've said. If I said the universe was created in some arbitrary, untestable, unfalsifiable fashion, that would not be a scientific theory. You severely underestimate the gravity attached to the word 'theory.'


I think that you severely overestimate the understanding of existence that comes with any theory being validated, let alone merely postulated.


i think that you severaly overestimate the understanding of existance that comes with any person making something up.

your tact in your last handful of posts is that all errors in christianity are the work of man, deliberately or otherwise. the problem with this is once you take away the teachings and the scriptures there isnt actually anything left of christianity. christ himself could just as easily be attributed as an error or wrong teaching by the men that followed as the resistance to our current idea of the universe or evolution or anything christianity has been proven wrong about.



just because names, dates, places, or amounts are wrong does not make a message wrong. if i point to 2 gay guys and say "steve loves carl", but steve is actually named wayne - clearly the information is not accurate but the message is still the same.


the names, dates and places can be wrong. the thing is, so can the message. why should i believe you that wayne (or steve) actually loves carl. how do you know? because somebody told you when you were young and you visit a building every sunday where everyone sits around while an old man reads from a book about how wayne loves steve.


no, because it's the conclusion I have reached by examining the course of my own life.

well, I haven't reached that conclusion. but others have.


if you continue to move in this direction you're not even supporting for christianity, just non-specific spirituality.


that is what I have been attempting to support from the start


yes all is clear. :p

if you're not talking about the christian truth but rather your own truth fashioned from your own experiences then your reasoning is more sound. you should have made that more clear at the start, or maybe i just missed it. >_<

so anyway, you believe in a god then? you believe the universe to have been designed? you dont believe in fatalism? im curious to know what kind of events in ones life would lead them to beliefs like these, if they arent indoctrined by a church or religion.


I have no stance on the existence of a creator god. I think it's possible but irrelevant.

I think that I experience various phenomena. The material universe is one such phenomena. I don't think it matters if it exists outside of something experiencing it. So I am much more interested in solving what I am than what the universe is. And, since I see the material as merely an aspect of my experiences - I am more interested in studying my experiences for truth than I am in studying the material for truth. That isn't to say I ignore it altogether, I am still open to the idea that my experiences result from matter and not the other way around.

I do not have the slightest if the universe was designed or not. But I certainly think that the nature of our lives is not as most scientists believe. For one thing, I believe in rebirth(of sorts). I also believe in heaven and hell (of sorts). My beliefs align, for the most part, with the direct teachings of buddha. But not all the added shit.
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
February 19 2009 07:06 GMT
#335
I know that the measurements of the arc and various other objects are important and symbolize different things. I'm not sure about this case.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 19 2009 09:50 GMT
#336
--- Nuked ---
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 19 2009 11:13 GMT
#337
On February 19 2009 18:50 Mada_Jiang wrote:
Wow! Awesome to come back after a hard day's work and read some nice heated debate lol. I am really interested on how YoshTodd thought ... or any one who has been following this thread for that matter.

On February 18 2009 23:57 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 21:40 Mada_Jiang wrote:
For some of who has directed comments and questions at me, forgive me if I don't respond. I speak to everyone here how I would speak to someone if I was face to face with them, and I try my best to be an encouragement to who ever I can. That is why if you are aiming comments at me as a personal attack, to vent your frustration, to make a statement of aggression based on your assumptions, or to ask me a question that you clearly don't want an answer from, then I wont be responding. To you I pray that peace be with you.

If you have a genuine question, or some thoughts you would like to share with me I would be more than happy to fellowship with you. Post your thoughts here, PM me or email me, or if you are a Sydney-sider, I'd be more than happy to meet for a coffee during business hours ^.^ I hope that we can be an encouragement and an edification to each other.

If your language of preference is Chinese or Japanese please also let me know. ^.^

on what do you base your assertion that the atom, or anything else in nature, requires a designer?
that is an honest question. it was an honest question the first time too.


On February 19 2009 00:02 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 21:09 IdrA wrote:
non-christians asked their deity and got just as clear an answer
whats up with that?

that is a valid, honest question as well.
all deeply religious people of all denominations share your faith, what makes you right? and you cant rely on 'knowing your god' because everyone else can claim the same thing.

http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
NeVeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1352 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-21 22:29:59
February 19 2009 15:21 GMT
#338
ruXxar
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Norway5669 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-19 16:18:00
February 19 2009 16:17 GMT
#339
@ Never:

It's fair enough that people need a reason to live, if so just to comfort themselves and their beeing.

But what I'm reacting to is why people that practice A certain religion(say Christianity) deems that theirs is the one and only true religion, when they have no solid fact except faith.
And then we're back to square one, because we can neither prove nor disprove God with science, it's very hard to convice people to change their state of mind. Not that they should for all I care, do whatever that pleases you, but don't push it on me saying that your religion is the only one that leads to heaven and everyone else will burn in hell for not taking your point of view on life.
"alright guys im claiming my role im actually politician I can manipulate a persons vote during the day phase, used it on clarity last phase and forced him to vote for HF. full role name donald trump, definitely town sided". - EBH
NeVeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1352 Posts
February 19 2009 16:43 GMT
#340
So let them believe that theirs is the one and only true religion. What is it about that that bothers you so much? You don't have to listen to people whose beliefs you don't agree with.

I personally would truly like to have such a faith, so if others are able to do so, all the better for them in my mind.
yoshtodd
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States418 Posts
February 19 2009 20:07 GMT
#341
On February 19 2009 18:50 Mada_Jiang wrote:
Wow! Awesome to come back after a hard day's work and read some nice heated debate lol. I am really interested on how YoshTodd thought ... or any one who has been following this thread for that matter.


I kind of feel like debating for or against religion doesn't accomplish anything. If people want to they will seek it, if not they won't and both is fine. Both sides make good and interesting arguments, I wish it didn't turn into such a battle.
moo
LTT
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Shakuras1095 Posts
February 19 2009 22:23 GMT
#342
On February 20 2009 01:43 NeVeR wrote:
So let them believe that theirs is the one and only true religion. What is it about that that bothers you so much? You don't have to listen to people whose beliefs you don't agree with.

I personally would truly like to have such a faith, so if others are able to do so, all the better for them in my mind.


I wish that were true, but for that to be a valid option we would need a world without politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law

That doesn't even include things like American chrisitians' fight to replace the teaching of evolution with creationism/intelligent design/whatever other name they are up to now.

When they believe that they are the only ones that are correct, and the incorrect ones are going to suffer forever for being incorrect, it skews their actions. Imposing their beliefs and taboos on others isn't bad because they are "helping" them. The irrational beliefs of others aren't kept within their community. Their actions can affect what I can and cannot do and what children can and cannot learn.

Letting them believe what they want is a fine idea if they keep to themselves, but they clearly do not. If they can speak up and affect my life, I should be able to speak up to stop them.
Mada_Jiang
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia236 Posts
February 20 2009 00:00 GMT
#343
--- Nuked ---
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 20 2009 00:17 GMT
#344
On February 20 2009 09:00 Mada_Jiang wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2009 05:07 yoshtodd wrote:
On February 19 2009 18:50 Mada_Jiang wrote:
Wow! Awesome to come back after a hard day's work and read some nice heated debate lol. I am really interested on how YoshTodd thought ... or any one who has been following this thread for that matter.


I kind of feel like debating for or against religion doesn't accomplish anything. If people want to they will seek it, if not they won't and both is fine. Both sides make good and interesting arguments, I wish it didn't turn into such a battle.


I agree mate, debating about religion seems to always end in a battle that has no winners. Through out the thread, I have been trying hard to steer the convo away from religion. My hopes are that at one stage everyone would stop debating about religion, and talk more about God him self.

you realize god doesnt exist, right?
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 20 2009 00:21 GMT
#345
On February 20 2009 01:43 NeVeR wrote:
So let them believe that theirs is the one and only true religion. What is it about that that bothers you so much? You don't have to listen to people whose beliefs you don't agree with.

I personally would truly like to have such a faith, so if others are able to do so, all the better for them in my mind.

it is not a problem in itself that people have religion or need hope, my point was that it is not necessary as you claim it is, it only seems as such because its all people currently have. i find it hard to believe that every atheist still alive just has thicker skin than all the religious people. its not like every single one of them is living a charmed life. there is nothing to back up your claim that religious people would be unable to find happiness or comfort in anything besides religion. (well, they may now now that religion has warped them, but if they were raised normally without the brainwashing)

the problem comes when they force religion on others, which necessarily happens.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
NeVeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1352 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-20 05:12:20
February 20 2009 04:29 GMT
#346
I understood your point quite clearly. If I haven't convinced you that it is necessary, then I suppose no words of mine will.

As for religious people forcing their beliefs on others, it's not something that happens quite as often anymore in our modern world; and like I said before, while religion can indeed be capable of some harm, I do believe that its benefits greatly outweigh it.

By the way, it's rather silly of you as a guy who seems to be of a scientific mind to claim that God does not exist when there can be no proof of neither his existence nor non-existence. You can certainly believe that God does not exist (and such a belief would require a certain amount of faith, wouldn't it!), but do not claim it to be so.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-20 05:48:41
February 20 2009 05:43 GMT
#347
i find it hard to believe your arguments would have convinced anyone. 'bad shit happens' hardly makes one single source of comfort necessary. the very existence of well adjusted atheists proves it isnt absolutely necessary, but at best a good thing. and if it isnt an absolute necessity then the good can be outweighed by the bad, and im pretty sure suicide bombings are a bit worse than a person having to deal with this world instead of blocking it out and waiting for the next.
As for religious people forcing their beliefs on others, it's not something that happens quite as often anymore in our modern world;

every child born into a religious family has religious belief forced on them.
i realize you didnt mean 'forced' in that way, but it has the same effect and is even more insidious given that its done to children who have no way to combat it.
and if the fundamentalist christians and muslims get their way theres gonna be a whole lot of the 'forcing' you did mean.
By the way, it's rather silly of you as a guy who seems to be of a scientific mind to claim that God does not exist when there can be no proof of neither his existence nor non-existence. You can certainly believe that God does not exist (and such a belief would require a certain amount of faith, wouldn't it!), but do not claim it to be so.

have you read my posts?
ive said a few times, im technically agnostic as i havent seen a satisfactory proof that god doesnt exist, so i grant his existence the same possibility i grant zeus' and vishnu's and allah's.

and there are actually legit attempts to scientifically disprove the existence of the god of the monotheisms, like victor stenger's book god:the failed hypothesis. i dont personally find them ironclad, but some may very well may and i find it incredibly funny that you dismiss the opinion of those who do offhand while demanding respect be paid to religious beliefs.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
February 20 2009 06:09 GMT
#348
On February 20 2009 13:29 NeVeR wrote:

As for religious people forcing their beliefs on others, it's not something that happens quite as often anymore in our modern world; and like I said before, while religion can indeed be capable of some harm, I do believe that its benefits greatly outweigh it.

Have you ever considered that if you grew up in India, your faith would be in an entirely different religion? How is it fair that you're born into the "wrong" one while people in the Western hemisphere get born into the "right" one?
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
NeVeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1352 Posts
February 20 2009 06:46 GMT
#349
On February 20 2009 14:43 IdrA wrote:
i find it incredibly funny that you dismiss the opinion of those who do offhand while demanding respect be paid to religious beliefs.


You said it as if it were fact - not opinion. It also seemed a bit rude of you, which is why I chose to talk about it. I'm not dismissing anyone's opinion.

Anyway, this argument with you seems to be going no where, so I won't be continuing it.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 20 2009 06:55 GMT
#350
'i have no response so i wont post anymore'
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-20 07:11:51
February 20 2009 07:01 GMT
#351
On February 18 2009 17:44 IdrA wrote:
serious question, are you a troll?
ive seen you make posts like this before and it really feels like you're just playing devils advocate

Unfortunately, no. That is why I have articles which I post on the subject expressing the same viewpoint as myself, where I may show the basis of my thinking or to show that it is a real line of thought. In fact I started a whole damn blog posting nothing but things I read which, from my point of view, backs up my opinions. Pretty much no one else posts in that blog.

Show nested quote +
On February 18 2009 17:06 fight_or_flight wrote:
On February 18 2009 15:33 IdrA wrote:
btw burden of proof is on you for spaghetti monster reasons. its unlikely god exists until you demonstrate otherwise.

I don't see how you can say this. How is one philosophy inherently better than another? (you can't logically say it is unless you state axioms)

You can't use the scientific method in this situation, because it is not practical. When dealing with world views, you cannot (1) concretely prove everything, especially within your lifetime, or (2) have the exact same evidence as someone else.

Personal feelings are an absolutely valid form of evidence here, at this fundamental level. Even when you read Scientific American, your personal gut instincts that you aren't simply being lied to by that magazine must be used in order to even try to use the scientific method. However, unless you prove all of science to yourself, with all original experiments, and assume what your eyes tell you is correct, you are not being completely concrete.

theoretically anyone can go out there and test the information supplied in scientific american because the ideas presented by science are based on experimentation and information gathered from the real world. i know from limited experience that this is valid, and it is supported on a larger scale by peer-review systems, where all the blood thirsty scientists go around checking each other trying to fuck one another over in order to gain personal acclaim. so either the entire scientific community is scamming us and no one has managed to catch on, or it is reasonably trustworthy. so yes, i do take things on 'faith' but it is a faith founded in reason and experience. objectively it is indeed more valid than faith in god, which is founded on absolutely nothing.

also, science is based on rationality. a scientist can sit there and explain how he came to his conclusions and i can look at what he says and see if it makes sense to me. natural selection for instance, its proven, demonstrateable, observable fact that organisms reproduce and pass on their genetic code to offspring, and that sometimes there are mutations that cause slight variation in the code. now, given that, evolution by natural selection makes perfect sense. we know animals have offspring that can have traits slightly different from their own, but in general the offspring will have the same genes as the parent. it makes perfect sense that if an unusual offspring was born with a trait that made them better suited for their environment they would be more likely to survive than their competitors, and so would be able to have and raise more offspring, who have the same genes as them. extrapolated over time it is only logical that this new subspecies would come to replace the old one. nothing but logical conclusions starting from an observable fact. no leaps of faith, beyond trusting a microscope.
whereas with creation; god did it. how? fuck you hes god. i cant analyze that, i cant look at observable facts the creationist started with and follow his conclusions to see if they make sense. it is nothing but a leap of faith.

Yes, the idea would be that all that stuff is demonstrateable. And generations of scientists who have made that assumption has built upon it resulting in technological progress. But the point I'm making is that your personal world view/reality is fundamentally different. There is no precedent or previous research which you can build upon, unless you accept a paradigm, as you point out.

You don't have to re-prove everything in science because it is an institutional process which builds on itself. However, unless you accept what your parents and/or society tells you without reproving all assumptions, you yourself cannot take advantage of such institutional knowledge. Therefore, you must start from the beginning.

The point is you only use rational thought because it "seems to work" from you experiences since childhood, and from institutional knowledge of western culture. However you have other stimuli such as emotional and subconscious. To deny them would be throwing away methods for you to experience the world, and would essentially be throwing away data.

Show nested quote +

Your evidence for the world is not the same as my evidence, which is different from other poster's evidence. It is true, there is only one objective truth. However, you can't say "this is the default, you must convince me of otherwise". There is not default. Occam's razor doesn't applies only if you admit all evidence, and even then, it is not a proof, actually it is self referencing more than anything. Godel's theorem actually is proven and it states that things are actually infinity complex when logic is used.
ive always found the whole objective/subjective truth thing rather flawed. maybe we see the world in different ways, but theyre still the same world, its consistantly different. the color i see as orange may look to you like the color i see as blue. but we always see the colors in the same way, it always looks orange to me and always 'blue' to you. so i when i tell you to click the orange button, you click the one i mean, even if we dont see the same thing. so no, in the end we all have the same evidence. it may not look the same to them, but relative to the world as they know it it operates the same, because the evidence for all of us is drawn from the same universe, the same source of information.

As I mentioned above, there are not only cold observations such as color, but, say emotional damage from childhood. Such emotional damage easily affects a person much more than what they think is their objective opinion. Most people arguing in this thread, for example, are likely doing it because of a reason of that nature. The ego, emotional trauma, etc, forms evidence through which people view the world.

Show nested quote +

The scientific method is based on axioms, and builds up. It essentially assumes you know the truth from the beginning, and you build up with additional evidence. However it is not practical to use except for institutional settings where you can "stand on the shoulders of giants". However, in your own, personal, reality there is no one to stand on. Everything is potentially a lie. You obviously don't believe in religion, however people who have grown up with it are absolutely convinced it is true because of the axioms they start with. Essentially you have no starting place except a number of lies. This includes all philosophies, perhaps one of which is correct, but there is no "default".
if i had the time and the desire i could go back and check the work of every shoulder i am standing on. again, due to limited personal experience and trust in science (trust placed in them by rationality and experience, not by baseless faith) i accept this without actually checking it because it is not practically feasible to do so. a religious person can not say the same thing. he is not choosing to not go back and check the rationale that led to religious beliefs, because there is none. it must be accepted on faith, or not accepted at all.

Yes, but my point is you are not standing on any shoulders. That is for institutions, which build up knowledge little by little through objective analysis over decades and centuries. That process assumes other people have proven things before you. However you cannot apply that to your personal beliefs. For example, living in a religous country and being taught religion from a young age would be standing on the shoulders (and assumptions) of what you are told. You may agree, these things should be questioned (alternately, but just accepting what you are taught you can build up a rich culture of traditions).

Show nested quote +

The only other method is to assume everything is potentially true unless proven otherwise. This is more effective because it is much easier for a single fact to disprove a thousand lies than to debate endlessly (such as this thread) about a single truth which seems to be supported by a thousand lies. You can argue about them till you die. I prefer the other approach, and the exact method to apply this analysis I posted at the beginning of this thread.
it is not more effective simply because it is 'simpler' to disprove something than to prove it. for instance, there have been millions of religions throughout human history, a vast portion of which have forbidden the worship of false gods (any but their own), meaning that, at best, only one can be true. your suggestion forces us to accept all of those millions, many of which are logically impossible to disprove simply because of their nature, until we disprove them.

You've already eliminated many things, millions of religions in this case, by using the principle which I stated. Well not exactly eliminated them, but proved that all but at most 1 is completely correct. You could interpret this as meaning all religions are probably wrong, or you could interpret the ubiquity of religion to mean that there are a common set of truths which man is seeking. Why, logically, would pretty much all of mankind develop some sort of spiritual beliefs (independently) if there was in fact no spiritual realm? You may have answers to this, and I'm not necessarily arguing that point. I'm just showing that this method I'm advocating is a sound method and in fact superior to the institutional scienfific method approach.

I don't necessarily agree with everything in this, but it does make some interesting points:
Through science we understand knowledge. But not all knowledge is scientific, at least
in a strict sense, since, for this it has to meet at least two conditions: (1) to be true, and
(2) to be evident, which implies that it must be demonstrated. Moreover, scientific
knowledge must be required to be ordered and complete, and although this is evident in
most of present scientific investigations, a synthesized order of isolated facts has not been
attained.
In this sense, it is not exaggerated to affirm that so-called “modern science” is neither
completely true, nor is it absolutely evident, for in the issue of the origin of life, of
species and of man, for instance, a total order does not exist. On the contrary almost all
are isolated facts founded on mere hypotheses.
A concrete example of what was previously set forth is in the new challenge of science,
the subatomic universe; the latter is not objectively demonstrable with the so-called
“scientific method” of observation, experimentation and classification.
The most pure observation does not exist for those phenomena, which escape our threedimensional
universe; the subjective constitution of the observer himself and his
corresponding apparatus will always condition the experimentation between “the subject
who observed” and “the object observed”.
Do you really want chat rooms?
NeVeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1352 Posts
February 20 2009 16:07 GMT
#352
On February 20 2009 15:55 IdrA wrote:
'i have no response so i wont post anymore'


No, it's your attitude for the most part that turns me off to this argument. I get the sense that you have no intention of listening to what I have to say.
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
February 20 2009 18:20 GMT
#353
I had a chat with a real life friend about creationism vs evolution.
This Ethan guy is top 5 sc player in Taiwan, he plays Iccup too, and he's a lot better than i am in starcraft, Originally we were discussing teaching theory, and it turned into creationism vs evolution, to my surprise he beliefs in creationism, his rationale in starcraft theory and demonstrations of critical thinking during the games ( game sense) are way ahead of me.

My assumption ( critical thinker logically believes no god) was soooooooo wrong. As Jibba pointed out to me on another thread that sometimes people can be rational and logical in everything but refuse to apply that same logic when it comes to religion.

I try to show him how he failed to apply his logic in this case, I don't know if i did it right, I never asked him if it got to him, cause i think i got the point accross and if he did not take in any of them then it is his choice, and I respect his choice for being logical in everything but religion.


2/17/2009 7:21:36 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan what i'm really teaching isn't math nor science, i am trying to teach critical thinking
2/17/2009 7:21:42 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 teach starcraft
2/17/2009 7:21:54 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan and i use math and science as example of my teaching of critical thinking
2/17/2009 7:22:10 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 i see
2/17/2009 7:22:11 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 lol
2/17/2009 7:22:23 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan i always tell them, if you can think critically not only will you be able to learn math and science, you can learn whatever you are interested
2/17/2009 7:22:49 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan i can feed you with knowledge of math/science, just like i feed you a fish
2/17/2009 7:23:08 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan or i can teach you how to think critically, just like how i can teach you how to fish
2/17/2009 7:23:58 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 lol
2/17/2009 7:24:27 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan ya, cause not everybody interests in math and science
2/17/2009 7:25:02 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan they decide what they want, i just giving them the tools on how to learn, and once they know what they want, they can self teach with the tools i showed them
2/17/2009 7:25:25 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 right
2/17/2009 7:25:32 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan and of course, the side effects are pretty bad
2/17/2009 7:25:56 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan they will understand the goverment is BS, god does exist, and bible is friction
2/17/2009 7:26:05 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan all that jazz lol
2/17/2009 7:26:19 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 lol
2/17/2009 7:27:56 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan opps i meant doesn't but you knew that haha
2/17/2009 7:28:22 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 yeah
2/17/2009 7:28:28 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 but i still believe there is one
2/17/2009 7:28:29 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 MUAHAHA
2/17/2009 7:30:41 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan which god?
2/17/2009 7:30:50 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan buda? jesus? zeus?
2/17/2009 7:31:23 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 GOD
2/17/2009 7:31:25 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2/17/2009 7:31:36 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 Jesus
2/17/2009 7:32:12 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 i wonder if i can use skills while im using gospel
2/17/2009 7:33:04 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan you believe in creationism?
2/17/2009 7:33:27 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 what is that./
2/17/2009 7:33:27 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 ?
2/17/2009 7:33:35 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 opposite of evolution?
2/17/2009 7:33:38 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan god created everything in 7 days
2/17/2009 7:36:10 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 i do believe god created everything. but how and in how long
2/17/2009 7:36:13 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 remains open
2/17/2009 7:36:18 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 7 days coudl have been intepreted wrong
2/17/2009 7:36:25 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 lol
2/17/2009 7:37:30 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan have you ever asked the question, who's intepreting them? and why is there a need for different intepretations of the bible?
2/17/2009 7:37:53 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 yeah sure..
2/17/2009 7:38:19 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 i should read it for myself
2/17/2009 7:38:23 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 and see how i interpret it
2/17/2009 7:38:25 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 but even so
2/17/2009 7:38:28 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 the english version
2/17/2009 7:38:31 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 may be skewed
2/17/2009 7:38:39 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan there is a chinese version too
2/17/2009 7:38:42 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan japanese version
2/17/2009 7:38:48 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 of course
2/17/2009 7:38:56 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan different branches of the jesus religion
2/17/2009 7:39:17 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan sorry don't know how to spell cathothic
2/17/2009 7:39:18 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan lol
2/17/2009 7:39:25 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 catholic
2/17/2009 7:40:13 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan have you study evolution at school?
2/17/2009 7:40:54 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 hmm
2/17/2009 7:40:56 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 i donno
2/17/2009 7:41:04 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 how we evolved from apes?
2/17/2009 7:41:51 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan with your degree of critical thinking, all you need is to find the facts
2/17/2009 7:42:03 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 what if god created us by using evolution
2/17/2009 7:42:17 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 7 days could = 7 BILLION YEARS
2/17/2009 7:42:19 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 MUAHAHAH
2/17/2009 7:42:28 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 7 god days
2/17/2009 7:42:30 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 lol
2/17/2009 7:43:06 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan evidence = evolution, lack of evidence = creationism
2/17/2009 7:44:12 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 yeah, they use creationism to explain all the unexplainable
2/17/2009 7:46:51 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan there were a lot more unexplained some 200 years ago than today right?
2/17/2009 7:48:27 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan there were a lot more unexplainable things some 200 years ago than today, so when we are able to explain them, we do not need creationism any more
2/17/2009 7:50:43 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 hah
2/17/2009 7:50:43 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 but why not
2/17/2009 7:50:43 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 even though things can be explained
2/17/2009 7:50:46 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 why does taht eliminate
2/17/2009 7:50:50 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 creationism
2/17/2009 7:50:59 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan it doesn't eliminate
2/17/2009 7:51:07 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 all it means is that we now know how god created things
2/17/2009 7:51:09 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海
2/17/2009 7:54:30 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan do you agree that all sciences base on logical thinking?
2/17/2009 7:55:12 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 sure
2/17/2009 7:56:32 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan do you agree that people make logical thinking based on evidences?
2/17/2009 7:57:54 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan for example, you see me wall off and built 1 marine vs you, this evidence provoke your logical thinking of me going for fantasy build
2/17/2009 7:58:15 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 yeah
2/17/2009 8:00:18 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan wouldn't it be illogical if you didn't see me walling off and build only 1 marine, yet you still insist on making a lot of hydras to counter a fantasy build?
2/17/2009 8:00:41 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 well unless i assume you were trying to trick me
2/17/2009 8:01:22 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan ya, but that's also base on evidence from past games we play, as I did try to trick you into thinking something i want you to think
2/17/2009 8:01:36 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 yeah
2/17/2009 8:01:48 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan what i'm trying to get accross is that, there is no evidence of god, there is evidence of evolution
2/17/2009 8:02:14 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan logically we can't say god created everything, but that doesn't mean god doesn't exist
2/17/2009 8:02:36 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan it merely means the evidences suggest that this is what happened
2/17/2009 8:04:38 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan evolution doesn't even mention god, the people who made the logical connection derived creationism is faulse
2/17/2009 8:09:17 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 lol
2/17/2009 8:09:46 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan basically, people can't be logical in the same time believe in soemthing without evidence,
2/17/2009 8:10:13 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 thats kind of strange
2/17/2009 8:10:37 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan how so?
2/17/2009 8:10:59 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 im logical but also believe in things without evidence
2/17/2009 8:17:55 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan you take other people's words for granted? I do too, when my professor tell me 1+1=2 i believe him
2/17/2009 8:21:02 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan but the difference is the source, a professor of physic or math carries with him/her logic and evidence, as they can't become PhD without logical thinking.
2/17/2009 8:21:22 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan on the other hand bible is merely a book
2/17/2009 8:21:34 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 but it was written
2/17/2009 8:21:37 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 with evidence
2/17/2009 8:21:38 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 wasn't it
2/17/2009 8:21:40 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 ?
2/17/2009 8:21:45 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 its not a story people made up
2/17/2009 8:21:48 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 the diciples
2/17/2009 8:21:50 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 wrote it
2/17/2009 8:21:53 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 based on what happeend
2/17/2009 8:21:55 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan evidence is something people can prove it
2/17/2009 8:21:56 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 and what god told them
2/17/2009 8:22:00 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 ahha
2/17/2009 8:22:08 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 but what if the evidence was lost
2/17/2009 8:22:12 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 people cannot preserve evidence
2/17/2009 8:22:17 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 back then
2/17/2009 8:22:20 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 it was too long ago
2/17/2009 8:23:10 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 what if one we lose the evidence we have now
2/17/2009 8:23:20 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 then it becomes like it never existed
2/17/2009 8:23:40 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 one day*
2/17/2009 8:30:14 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan A court case, law suit of a murder case, one side has all the evidence, the other side has none, all they said was our evidence is lost
2/17/2009 8:30:40 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan if you are the judge, logically which side do you believe in? the one with evidence or the one that says they lost their evidence
2/17/2009 8:33:09 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 in this case, naturally the judge will side with the one with evidence
2/17/2009 8:33:32 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan as should you
2/17/2009 8:33:45 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 but the truth is the truth
2/17/2009 8:33:57 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 what happened cannot be changed
2/17/2009 8:34:06 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 whether we know the truth is irrelavant
2/17/2009 8:34:11 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 based on evidence
2/17/2009 8:34:38 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan if you are ignoring evidences then that is not logic
2/17/2009 8:34:45 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 what i mean is if i killed a woman but there was no evidence
2/17/2009 8:34:54 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan it is faith instead
2/17/2009 8:34:54 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 and the judge says im not guilty
2/17/2009 8:34:59 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 that doesn't mean i didn't kill the woman
2/17/2009 8:35:08 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 the truth is i did kill the woman
2/17/2009 8:35:12 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 thats what happened
2/17/2009 8:35:26 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 and if i wrote it in a book
2/17/2009 8:35:32 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 that book is true
2/17/2009 8:35:35 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 but there is no evidence
2/17/2009 8:35:43 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 whether you believe in that book or not is your decision
2/17/2009 8:35:51 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 but it doesn't change the facts
2/17/2009 8:35:54 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 the truth
2/17/2009 8:35:56 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 what happeend
2/17/2009 8:37:34 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan you are the judge, you do not know which one is true, as in we do not know rather evolution or creationism is true to begin with
2/17/2009 8:37:52 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan you are making an argument that you assume creationsim is true before judging
2/17/2009 8:38:50 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 yeah i guess so.
2/17/2009 8:41:53 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan wouldn't that be very unfair in this case? not to mention the decision is not based on logic, the judge already made the decision before the the 2 sides present their cases
2/17/2009 8:43:13 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 i think evolution vs creationism cannot be judged at all
2/17/2009 8:43:52 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 because evolution's evidence doesn't prove against creationism
2/17/2009 8:44:01 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 and creationism doesn't have hard evidence
2/17/2009 8:44:03 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 against evolution
2/17/2009 8:44:15 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 evolution just has evidence to support evolution
2/17/2009 8:44:18 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan that is true
2/17/2009 8:44:34 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan however you missed one fact
2/17/2009 8:44:45 PM ethan 沈 蕙 海 and only parts of it
2/17/2009 8:46:11 PM 沈 蕙 海 ethan the fact is for creationism to stand as truth, evolution can not take place, that's why people needed to re-inteprete the bible constantly

GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
MoltkeWarding
Profile Joined November 2003
5195 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-20 22:16:13
February 20 2009 22:13 GMT
#354
First of all, it's quite wrong to conceive of mainstream Christan thought as an anti-rational system. After all, modern Catholic doctrine is essentially Thomistic, and such theology is heavily dependent on syllogism. That syllogism makes direct use of aphorisms as premises does not negate its logical nature, since symbolic, mathematical logic is ultimately dependent on the same mechanisms.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster argument just highlights how trivial the focus on God as Being is. Treated purely as Being, God is equivalent in nature to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, since Being itself is a state of existence which is indifferent to its own properties. Both God and the Flying Spaghetti Monster can be either something or nothing, true or untrue, so long the argument only concerns whether they exist. Even if one gave God as a symbolic personification of metaphysical properties (truth, justice, knowledge, virtue; ) all of which human experiences which possess a purely metaphysical existence, and therefore the most appropriate properties to assign God, it does not follow that some other object might not occupy the same semantic field. (Here, alas, we must eject the Flying Spaghetti Monster from qualification, if only because of his "spaghetti" qualities.) What is particularly interesting and distinctive then, isn't the existence of God or even a Good or Just God, but a Historical God who created Adam and Eve within the garden of Eden, made his covenant with Abraham, appeared to and directed Moses to Israel, sent his Son to live among men that he might die for them, and will one day take his faithful to heaven. A God whose moral instruction to man was voiced by Jesus Christ as recorded in the gospels, and interpreted by Saint Paul in his epistles. These questions, moral and historical, are greater and more important than the petty epistomological spats between logic and empiricism, knowledge and belief, since we live in their shadows, consciously or otherwise.

Often in a spat over pure philosophy, fools and geniuses are indistinguishable.
MoltkeWarding
Profile Joined November 2003
5195 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-20 22:31:00
February 20 2009 22:26 GMT
#355
What is the nature of evil? Is it a corruption of the human soul, or native to it? If people are proud, envious, or lecherous- all natural phenomena, how are they to be interpreted morally? -such questions are all developed through mythological literature.

The cultural value of mythology isn't the same as history, but mythological thinking is a cardinal part of historical interpretation, since it is mythology which teaches us to think about the deeper meanings behind events.

The separation between mythology and history was effected by the Greeks, and we have lived under this paradigm ever since, even though the two are never completely mutually exclusive, but the Bible, whose purposes are both mythological and historical in their full senses, is something which lives or dies by the validity of either. Simply put- if the Bible is not historically accurate, then it has no mythology, and to say that vice versa would be even more true is too obvious.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 21 2009 00:33 GMT
#356
On February 21 2009 01:07 NeVeR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2009 15:55 IdrA wrote:
'i have no response so i wont post anymore'


No, it's your attitude for the most part that turns me off to this argument. I get the sense that you have no intention of listening to what I have to say.

?
i did not ignore or disregard without consideration anything you said, i addressed and responded to every one of your points. you are the one who appears to be paying no attention to what i say. all you did was repeat the same thing twice then say you wouldnt say anything else.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
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