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On February 17 2009 12:11 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 12:07 Chromyne wrote:On February 17 2009 10:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: hey techniq get back in your own thread, faggot
edit: or is it more comfortable for you to go into other threads preaching your specific version of christianity rather than to recognize you are one of the greatest enemies of reason and logical thinking? In response to your actual post, Techniq's post was justified in a sense that he was responding to the OP; it's less 'preachy' when you're responding than when it's unwanted. Techniq's post is what he believes to be true, and truth in itself is offensive. For example: 1 + 1 = 2 (Let's just assume this to be a fact). This may offend some people who think otherwise, but it won't change the fact that 1 + 1 = 2. If one person thinks the sum is 3, and another, 1, it doesn't mean that there is no correct answer. This analogy doesn't equate perfectly but this is similar to religious pluralism. Assuming some sort of supernatural being, if there are multiple religions making different claims about the same topic (afterlife, gods, etc.) then not all can be correct. hey look i made an extremely similar point in the other thread Show nested quote +On February 16 2009 10:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: also the fact that you're claiming that all atheists love sin is simply ridiculous. "god is not real" is not a justification of sin, it's one of the possible explanations of all the contradictions within support for god. ptolemy tried to slightly modify aristotlean physics to make it still work, but copernicus/newton/galileo threw them out and got the right answer.
aristotle = bible ptolemy = each denomination of christianity (or even judaism and islam) copernicus/newton/galileo = agnosticism/atheism
ptolemy could've been right, but he wasnt
each denomination of christianity could be right since they're all tweaks of the same basic concept, and i'm not saying that all of them HAVE to be wrong, but if one of them is right, then the others have to be wrong, and adhering to one is like playing the lottery
not a very good chance to further explicate this analogy, aristotle claimed that earth was at the center of the universe, and the stars were all on a spherical shell rotating around the earth. observations of the night sky matched this for the most part, except for the problem of "the wanderers" (which were actually the planets), objects that sometimes traveled with the stars, sometimes went backwards or at different speeds. aristotle ignored this contradiction completely. ptolemy attempted to fix this problem by adding the idea of epicycles, little circles that the planets made while traveling with the overall sphere of the stars. this matched rudimentary observations, but as precision got better, the observations kept getting tweaked. in fact, he moved earth slightly off the center of the universe at one point, which was really revolutionary at the time, and i can really respect hiim for this. just because he was wrong doesn't mean he was an enemy of reason. the difference between ptolemy and people like techniq.uk is that ptolemy was flexible. fast forward a thousand years+, copernicus decides to try to fix these inconsistencies by putting the sun at the center of the universe, the earth revolving around the sun, and the planets also doing so. his papers were published posthumously, because science's best friend, the catholic church, would've totally excommunicated and killed him if he challenged aristotlean physics outright (a prime example of dogma being an enemy of reason). however, once the ideas were out, they were out, and they helped lead to the development of things like kepler's laws and newtonian physics.
Sorry, I didn't read the other threads, so I'm not quite clear on the history of this discussion.
I don't quite understand the conclusion of your post. I can see the illustration of the stubborn and sometimes dogmatic nature of the church and the evolution of science to new discoveries.
Are you saying that the Bible is flawed, that Christianity and its denominations attempt to 'band-aid' or 'tweak' the claims of the Bible, and that Science eventually trumps the former by revealing the underlying flaws and presenting the empirical truth?
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are you seeking spirituality or are you just looking to be part of something?
the first comes from inside yourself. you have to ask the questions yourself and look for the answers yourself. otherwise you're just another parrot. and there are already way too many parrots.
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On February 17 2009 12:27 Chromyne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 12:11 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 12:07 Chromyne wrote:On February 17 2009 10:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: hey techniq get back in your own thread, faggot
edit: or is it more comfortable for you to go into other threads preaching your specific version of christianity rather than to recognize you are one of the greatest enemies of reason and logical thinking? In response to your actual post, Techniq's post was justified in a sense that he was responding to the OP; it's less 'preachy' when you're responding than when it's unwanted. Techniq's post is what he believes to be true, and truth in itself is offensive. For example: 1 + 1 = 2 (Let's just assume this to be a fact). This may offend some people who think otherwise, but it won't change the fact that 1 + 1 = 2. If one person thinks the sum is 3, and another, 1, it doesn't mean that there is no correct answer. This analogy doesn't equate perfectly but this is similar to religious pluralism. Assuming some sort of supernatural being, if there are multiple religions making different claims about the same topic (afterlife, gods, etc.) then not all can be correct. hey look i made an extremely similar point in the other thread On February 16 2009 10:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: also the fact that you're claiming that all atheists love sin is simply ridiculous. "god is not real" is not a justification of sin, it's one of the possible explanations of all the contradictions within support for god. ptolemy tried to slightly modify aristotlean physics to make it still work, but copernicus/newton/galileo threw them out and got the right answer.
aristotle = bible ptolemy = each denomination of christianity (or even judaism and islam) copernicus/newton/galileo = agnosticism/atheism
ptolemy could've been right, but he wasnt
each denomination of christianity could be right since they're all tweaks of the same basic concept, and i'm not saying that all of them HAVE to be wrong, but if one of them is right, then the others have to be wrong, and adhering to one is like playing the lottery
not a very good chance to further explicate this analogy, aristotle claimed that earth was at the center of the universe, and the stars were all on a spherical shell rotating around the earth. observations of the night sky matched this for the most part, except for the problem of "the wanderers" (which were actually the planets), objects that sometimes traveled with the stars, sometimes went backwards or at different speeds. aristotle ignored this contradiction completely. ptolemy attempted to fix this problem by adding the idea of epicycles, little circles that the planets made while traveling with the overall sphere of the stars. this matched rudimentary observations, but as precision got better, the observations kept getting tweaked. in fact, he moved earth slightly off the center of the universe at one point, which was really revolutionary at the time, and i can really respect hiim for this. just because he was wrong doesn't mean he was an enemy of reason. the difference between ptolemy and people like techniq.uk is that ptolemy was flexible. fast forward a thousand years+, copernicus decides to try to fix these inconsistencies by putting the sun at the center of the universe, the earth revolving around the sun, and the planets also doing so. his papers were published posthumously, because science's best friend, the catholic church, would've totally excommunicated and killed him if he challenged aristotlean physics outright (a prime example of dogma being an enemy of reason). however, once the ideas were out, they were out, and they helped lead to the development of things like kepler's laws and newtonian physics. Sorry, I didn't read the other threads, so I'm not quite clear on the history of this discussion. I don't quite understand the conclusion of your post. I can see the illustration of the stubborn and sometimes dogmatic nature of the church and the evolution of science to new discoveries. Are you saying that the Bible is flawed, that Christianity and its denominations attempt to 'band-aid' or 'tweak' the claims of the Bible, and that Science eventually trumps the former by revealing the underlying flaws and presenting the empirical truth? i'm saying that the existence of the universe (:: the observation of the night sky) is definitely possibly explained by overarching christianity and the bible (::aristotle), and the many denominations of christianity that often try to explain the bible's inconsistencies with the observation of the actual universe (:: ptolemy). there could have been a thousand ptolemys, all trying to fit aristotle's general view of the spherical geocentric universe with physical observations, just as there are so many denominations of christianity offering different interpretations of the same bible and the same universe. however, agnosticism and atheism represent an alternate theory completely (::copernicus) on why the universe exists, and how it works. each have their moral corollaries, but from a scientific standpoint, the strength as a theory is more important than the moral corollaries.
now even though ptolemy was wrong in my analogy, i'm not saying christianity or any of it's denominations are wrong. many of them are valid explanations, and some are (from a scientific standpoint) better than others, as they fit with more evidence (we're pretty sure earth wasn't created in 4004 BC). however, christians like techniq.uk who reject atheism and agnosticism entirely are just like the catholic church who defended aristotle to the bitter end. aristotle could've been right, but even if he was, persecuting and rejecting everybody who offered an alternate view didn't help anybody.
edit: the real problem with christianity from a reason/science/logic standpoint is that it's not falsifiable. it does make predictions, and it does have evidence, but there can be no direct evidence on whether a god exists, without his direct appearance. many christians cite jesus and his miracles and fulfilled prophecies, but there's a reason they're all disputed.
EDIT2: important note:
to the OP, everything i've said is how i view the meaning of life.
you could search for a meaning provided by a religion, either your own salvation in some form or another, or general goodwill towards humanity, etc.
i look at it this way:
i was put here on this universe, and it doesn't matter if it was by a creator/god or by mere chance. there are so many things yet unexplained about the universe, and i could do one of two things with my existence towards the end of productivity: i could attempt to improve the lives of others born into this same strange universe, or i could attempt to understand the inherent nature of the universe and all its mysteries, mathematical or otherwise. i first tried to go after the big daddy, the origin of the universe and life, but as i delved deeper and deeper, it looked more and more impossible. however, i can still go one step at a time, and advance what so many people have worked towards already: modern physics. my personal meaning in life is to understand the universe from a an objective a standpoint as possible, because i feel it is the most grand thing i could do with this opportunity of life i have been given. most religions would take that away from me, inserting deus ex machinas, literally, to explain what i'm so desperately seeking to discover for myself, and trying to give me other purposes in life. i choose to ignore these things and seek my own purpose for myself.
i have had the internal dilemma of meaning several times in my life. by my own view of atheist-leaning agnosticism, death is quite the ultimatum: past death, i won't have the consciousness to know that i ever even existed. this creates the burden of "how do i apply value to my own life?" i could enjoy the life i was given, make as much money as i can, make it as comfortable as possible, but the reality remains that after death, it would mean absolutely nothing. this was such a scary thought, that i've often had thoughts along the lines of, "i wish christianity was right so i could go to hell and still remember that I ever existed." eventually i settled on the fact that, the only way of possibly attaching a meaning to my own life by this regard is learning for myself the reason why i was put here. that's where the above paragraph comes in.
IN CONCLUSION, GO INTO THEORETICAL PHYSICS YEAAAAAAAH
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imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen.
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On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote: imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen. sure it does
it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation.
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Okay, I understand where you are coming from now. I think that your issue with Christianity is also the nature of Christianity. If it were falsifiable, then there would never be any doubt and everyone would either accept it or reject it (to choose a path contrary to evidence would seem foolish). Please don't take this explanation as a sort of hand waving excuse, but I do believe there is a purpose to this fact, at least with respect to Christianity. The belief in free will to believe means that people should have choice as opposed to something that is undeniable.
With respect to different denominations of Christianity (Catholicism, Protestantism, etc.) I believe that because of their similar core beliefs (on Jesus Christ, Salvation, God, etc.), they are in essence, the same. The fact that they have diverging views on somewhat minor points shouldn't detract from this. This is why I think that believing in one is not a lottery, as in this case, they lead to the same end. With respect to other religions entirely, like Atheism or Islam, there becomes a clear distinction in beliefs, and you cannot say they lead to a similar end.
However, I do agree that a classical sense of tolerance is important, where not all view are valid, but where all views are respected and even investigated for validity.
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On February 17 2009 13:07 Chromyne wrote: Okay, I understand where you are coming from now. I think that your issue with Christianity is also the nature of Christianity. If it were falsifiable, then there would never be any doubt and everyone would either accept it or reject it (to choose a path contrary to evidence would seem foolish). Please don't take this explanation as a sort of hand waving excuse, but I do believe there is a purpose to this fact, at least with respect to Christianity. The belief in free will to believe means that people should have choice as opposed to something that is undeniable.
With respect to different denominations of Christianity (Catholicism, Protestantism, etc.) I believe that because of their similar core beliefs (on Jesus Christ, Salvation, God, etc.), they are in essence, the same. The fact that they have diverging points on somewhat minor points shouldn't detract from this. This is why I think that believing in one is not a lottery, as in this case, they lead to the same end. With respect to other religions entirely, like Atheism or Islam, there becomes a clear distinction in beliefs, and you cannot say they lead to a similar end.
and the fact that these different ends exist is so bothersome to me. the fact that within different demographics, there are different rates of christianity proves that luck would play a major part in salvation if christianity was correct, because your chance of salvation would be influenced by where you were born, and under what circumstances. to me, this is too unfair to be correct, but it may as well be correct. i can't know. it's really irrelevant to me, because i'd be willing to go to hell as a martyr if this were correct, and if it isn't, it isn't.
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On February 17 2009 12:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote: imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen. sure it does it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation.
ok and so my salvation comes from believing that this event really happened? if jesus already saved me then why do I have to believe it? and if I have to believe in then in what way did he save me.
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On February 17 2009 13:13 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 12:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote: imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen. sure it does it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation. ok and so my salvation comes from believing that this event really happened? if jesus already saved me then why do I have to believe it? and if I have to believe in then in what way did he save me. because in (many forms of) christianity, salvation is gained by still personally having a relationship with god. you can't reap the benefits of something you don't acknowledge and appreciate.
your last sentence makes no grammatical sense.
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I agree somewhat. It would seem unfair for people who die without at least hearing anything about Christianity. But I also believe that Christianity transcends organized religion. After all, it did not begin as such, and I don't believe it is necessary. I'm sure an omnipotent God has ways of reaching people without things like missionaries or churches.
But again, this really isn't a solution to your problem, because I really don't have a concrete answer for you.
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On February 17 2009 13:16 Chromyne wrote: I agree somewhat. It would seem unfair for people who die without at least hearing anything about Christianity. But I also believe that Christianity transcends organized religion. After all, it did not begin as such, and I don't believe it is necessary. I'm sure an omnipotent God has ways of reaching people without things like missionaries or churches.
But again, this really isn't a solution to your problem, because I really don't have a concrete answer for you. you're a likable person :3
do you see the difference between yourself and techniq? if so, then i think you get my point.
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On February 17 2009 13:19 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 13:16 Chromyne wrote: I agree somewhat. It would seem unfair for people who die without at least hearing anything about Christianity. But I also believe that Christianity transcends organized religion. After all, it did not begin as such, and I don't believe it is necessary. I'm sure an omnipotent God has ways of reaching people without things like missionaries or churches.
But again, this really isn't a solution to your problem, because I really don't have a concrete answer for you. you're a likable person :3 do you see the difference between yourself and techniq? if so, then i think you get my point.
<3 you're not a bad ol' chap yourself.
+ Show Spoiler +This is our secret plan to win the hearts of everyone, then take over the world!
I see what you mean. Discussing such topics, especially over the internet, requires a significant amount of tact =/
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yeah, and my big old agnosticism hammer may be a bit too threatening for the likes of techniq.uk and mada_jiang? i dont know, i just get the impression they're definitively unreasonable (as in impossible to reason with), which is why i burden myself with the task of providing counterarguments to the beliefs they present as fact.
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I can reason completely fine but when your talking to me about predestination and such then how can i use science in that, I must argue from a biblical perspective.
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As for your mistranslation of virgin and all of that, yeah...ok idra's right and the greek and hebrew scholars over the last couple of hundred years are wrong and the context of the whole chapter and bible i may mention is wrong.
It's translated virgin and in the same chapter where virgin is mentioned in the gospels it also speaks about the child coming from the Holy Ghost therefore virgin is correct in these contexts and it's not some random mistranslation error that created the doctrine of virgin birth.
18Now the birth of(A) Jesus Christ[a] took place in this way.(B) When his mother Mary had been betrothed[b] to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child(C) from the Holy Spirit.
and.....
34And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?"[a]
35And the angel answered her,(H) "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of(I) the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born[b] will be called(J) holy—(K) the Son of God.
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As for you tuna, at the end of the day heres where i'm coming from:
No one can disprove God, scientists say the big bang came from nowhere does that seem logical? no. Some of the greatest scientists in history even darwin are agnostics and often in quotes lean toward God being real because of the complexity of things.
Ok so from that standing point, i conclude because of morals etc.. there is a God. The God of the bible is correct because it's prophecies not only about Jesus but about israels history, roman/grecian/persian empire's history before it happened in Daniel, prophecies forfilled over the last few hundred years like israel becoming a nation, have been forfilled and there is no other book like it that does it so accurately nor in so many cases.
As for the claim Jesus didn't for fill some promises, those 5 you listed. I went through them and quite a number of them actually we're for filled, e.g. the Jews coming from 4 corners was about the gospel going everywhere and the Jews in other nations being converted under one banner along with gentiles. and i think i listed 2 of them that are linked to the book of revelation prophecy so they will be for filled by Jesus.
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On February 17 2009 13:58 TechniQ.UK wrote: As for you tuna, at the end of the day heres where i'm coming from:
No one can disprove God, scientists say the big bang came from nowhere does that seem logical? no. Some of the greatest scientists in history even darwin are agnostics and often in quotes lean toward God being real because of the complexity of things.
don't pretend to know what modern physicists truly think about the big bang
i don't pretend to know the details of scripture, don't put words in scientists' mouths
95% of educated modern physicists will admit that the origin of the big bang is a mystery, not that it popped out of nowhere. several theories offer an explanation, such as loop quantum gravity, which avoids the singularity problem with a big bounce.
didn't understand any of that? good, don't try to use the big bang against science.
and i think you'll have a trouble swallowing this bit but, GOD IS NOT THE DEFAULT EXPLANATION OF ALL MYSTERIES IN SCIENCE. finally, i myself admitted the existence of god is unfalsifiable. in science, this is a bad thing, not a good thing, and certainly does not prove his existence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
as for the complexity argument, there's some literature on that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Response_of_the_scientific_community
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On February 17 2009 13:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 13:13 travis wrote:On February 17 2009 12:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote: imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen. sure it does it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation. ok and so my salvation comes from believing that this event really happened? if jesus already saved me then why do I have to believe it? and if I have to believe in then in what way did he save me. because in (many forms of) christianity, salvation is gained by still personally having a relationship with god. you can't reap the benefits of something you don't acknowledge and appreciate.
except that has absolutely nothing to do with "christ"
your last sentence makes no grammatical sense.
that is because i typed "in" instead of "it"
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On February 17 2009 13:13 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 12:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote: imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen. sure it does it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation. ok and so my salvation comes from believing that this event really happened? if jesus already saved me then why do I have to believe it? and if I have to believe in then in what way did he save me. Just because you know that there's medicine for a disease you have doesn't mean you're healed... you still have to TAKE it
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On February 17 2009 14:09 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 13:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 13:13 travis wrote:On February 17 2009 12:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote: imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen. sure it does it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation. ok and so my salvation comes from believing that this event really happened? if jesus already saved me then why do I have to believe it? and if I have to believe in then in what way did he save me. because in (many forms of) christianity, salvation is gained by still personally having a relationship with god. you can't reap the benefits of something you don't acknowledge and appreciate. except that has absolutely nothing to do with "christ" that is because i typed "in" instead of "it" god is christ, same guy. father, son, holy ghost.
he saved you because prior to that, there was no way to absolve yourself of your sins, so only true saints who did not sin would avoid hell. after jesus, the procedure became to cleanse yourself of sin via his forgiveness, which he bestowed upon the earth through jesus, his temporary human form.
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On February 16 2009 10:35 fight_or_flight wrote:Well you are on the right track. You will never find the truth if you don't look for it. My suggestion is to find some like minded people who are doing the same thing you are. This website may not be the best place because its primary focus is not that subject. Second, you should not let yourself get trapped in any specific interlocking belief system. If it takes away your individuality or hampers critical thinking, avoid it. You need to come up with a way to sort the truth from what is not true. The scientific method is used in science, but as you pointed out, it is limited to concrete experiments. Here is another method you can use + Show Spoiler +Truth Analysis
The process is based on two axioms:
1. truth is not subjective 2. truth never contradicts itself
Because truth is not subjective, some ideas are more objective than others. This means that no matter what your worldview is, it can always be improved to be more objective. It shows that there is indeed something to strive for.
The idea that truth never contradicts itself is a very powerful axiom. Lies can be internally consistent as well, but a mixture of truth and lies will show contradictions. You can use this principle to discover what’s true and what’s false. Here’s what I mean:
It is difficult to tell if any single idea is true or false, just like it is difficult to tell which of two similar puzzles a single puzzle piece belongs to. But a large collection of non-contradicting ideas will reveal whether the entire collection is true or false. The larger the collection, the easier it is to see. You start with one ambiguous puzzle piece, find others that fit onto it, and soon you can tell which of the two puzzles you’ve put together.
Another analogy is panning for gold. You start with a large amount of material that includes both silt and gold flakes, then you shake the pan and let the silt fall away. This indicates the importance of continually thinking, reading, and discussing large amounts of new material, which is then to be sorted or filtered via intuition and critical thinking to reveal what is true.
It is better to look for what’s wrong with a theory than what’s right. Debates can rage forever concerning the thousand facts supporting a single lie, but no one can argue with a single fact that disproves a thousand lies.
Remember, as long as your worldview is internally consistent, it is most likely entirely true or entirely false. Combine this principle with the five-step process below, and you will have an effective truth analysis method. The process of discovering truth is one of cycling between gathering material, formulating theories, working out inconsistencies, and gathering more material.
Most importantly, truth is always verified by both logic and intuition—logic without intuition, or intuition without logic should never be used to determine truth. They must be used in tandem. If there is conflict between logic and intuition, check your logical assumptions. Use intuition to guide and logic to analyze.
The process goes like this:
1) Gather new ideas from contemplation, observation, discussion, or some reading material. Then pick a mystery, a contradiction, a set of observations or anything that needs to be explained or resolved.
2) To make a good theory that will explain all of that, start with the infinite set of all possibilities. This means anything goes, no idea is too ludicrous. Use your intuition and guess.
3) As ideas come to mind, use critical thinking to eliminate everything that is self contradictory or absolutely impossible. Look for holes in these ideas, try to shoot them down.
4) Of the bulletproof theories that are left, select the theory that:
* explains all the facts * explains the facts better than any other theory * explains facts that previous theories could not * is logically consistent and has no internal contradictions * makes sense * feels intuitively correct
5) The theory is worth keeping if:
* it predicts things which are later confirmed by observation * you find correlation from other independent sources
6) If you come across something that challenges the theory, then:
* check to see that it’s really a challenge, and not just an illusory paradox based on assumptions or incorrect perspective * check to see if the challenge is even valid, or if it is internally inconsistent and full of holes * modify the theory to accomodate the challenge * come up with a whole new theory that explains everything more elegantly than the old one
This is opposite the process used in science and mathematics that starts with axioms and builds upon them. The problem with that method is that it starts with a very limited finite set and creeps upward like a stalagmite. If the assumptions or axioms are false, then everything built on it is in error. Furthermore, such a process cannot skip steps, as it always needs verification from the status quo to proceed to the next step. It cannot take leaps of faith or logic, and therefore cannot make paradigm shifts. It’s an inflexible process that definitely has its advantages when it comes to high risk applications that need lots of security and assuredness, but as far as breaking new ground is concerned, it’s incredibly slow. Any creativity in that process happens only in the formation of the basic axioms, or in accidents that occur along the way.
The process described in this article starts with an infinite set, and whittles away what doesn’t fit. This means there is no need to leap across a logical abyss because one approaches from the other side. It is much easier to build a bridge if someone is already on the other side. Likewise, once a radical idea has been confirmed using this process, it is much easier to work backwards and logically bridge the abyss. Also, the fitting together of ideas and sorting of truth from lies requires creativity at every step, so it’s the best method of achieving rapid innovation. For a long time, perhaps, you have been thinking in a single paradigm. There are more ways to see the word than just from the materialist point of view. + Show Spoiler +Paradigm Shifts and Aeonics by Peter Carroll
All the philosophies, creeds, dogmas and beliefs that humanity has evolved are variants of three great paradigms, the Transcendental, the Materialist and the Magical. In no human culture has any one of these paradigms been completely distinct from the others. For example in our own culture at the time of writing the Transcendental and Magical paradigms are frequently confused together.
Transcendental philosophies are basically religious and manifest in a spectrum stretching from the fringes of primitive spiritism through pagan polytheism to the monotheism of the Judaeo-Christian- Islamic traditions and the theoretical non-theistic systems of Buddhism and Taoism. In each case it is believed that some form of consciousness or spirit created and maintains the universe and that humans, other living organisms, contain some fragment of this consciousness or spirit which underlies the veil or illusion of matter. The essence of Transcendentalism is belief in spiritual beings greater than oneself or states of spiritual being superior to that which currently one enjoys. Earthly life is frequently seen merely as a form of dialoque between oneself and one's deity or deities, or perhaps some impersonal form of higher force. The material world is a theatre for the spirit or soul or consciousness that created it. Spirit is the ultimate reality to the transcendentalist.
In the Materialist paradigm the universe is believed to consist fundamentally and entirely of matter. Energy is but a form of matter and together they subtend space and time within which all change occurs strictly on the basis of cause and effect. Human behaviour is reducible to biology, biology is reducible to chemistry, chemistry is reducible to physics and physics is reducible to mathematics. Mind and consciousness are thus merely electrochemical events in the brain and spirit is a word without objective content. The causes of some events are likely to remain obscure perhaps indefinitely, but there is an underlying faith that sufficient material cause must exist for any event. All human acts can be categorized as serving some biological need or as expressions of previously applied conditioning or merely as malfunction. The goal of materialist who eschews suicide is the pursuit of personal satisfaction including altruistic satisfactions if desired.
The main difficulty in recognizing and describing the pure Magical Paradigm is that of insufficient vocabulary. Magical philosophy is only recently recovering from a heavy adulteration with transcendental theory. The word aether will be used to describe the fundamental reality of the magical paradigm. It is more or less equivalent to the idea of Mana used in oceanic shamanism. Aether in materialistic descriptions is information which structures matter and which all matter is capable of emitting and receiving. In transcendental terms aether is a sort of 'life force' present in some degree in all things. It carries both knowledge about events and the ability to influence similar or sympathetic events. Events either arise sponataneously out of themselves or are encouraged to follow certain paths by influence of patterns in the aether. As all things have an aetheric part they can be considered to be alive in some sense. Thus all things happen by magic, the large scale features of the universe have a very strong aetheric pattern which makes them fairly predictable but difficult to influence by the aetheric patterns created by thought. Magicians see themselves as participating in nature. Transcendentalists like to think they are somehow above it. Materialists like to try and manipulate it.
Now this universe has the peculiarly accomodating property of tending to provide evidence for, and confirmation of, whatever paradigm one chooses to believe in. Presumably at some deep level there is a hidden symmetry between those things we call Matter, Aether and Spirit. Indeed, it is rare to find an individual or culture operating exclusively on a single one of these paradigms and none is ever entirely absent. Non-dominant paradigms are always present as superstitions and fears. A subsequent section on Aeonics will attempt to untangle the influences of each of these great world views throughout history, to see how they have interacted with each other and to predict future trends. In the meantime an analysis of the radically differing concepts of time and self in each paradigm is offered to more fully distinguish the basic ideas.
Transcendentalists conceive of time in millennial and apocalyptic terms. Time is regareded as having a definite beginning and ending, both initiated by the activities of spiritual beings or forces. The end of time on the personal and cosmic scale is regarded not so much as a cessation of being but as a change to a state of non-material being. The beginning of personal and cosmic time is similarly regarded as a creative act by spiritual agencies. Thus reproductive activity usually becomes heavily controlled and hedged about with taboo and restriction in religious cultures, as it implies an usurpation of the powers of deities. Reproduction also implies that death has in some measure been overcome. How awesome the power of creation and how final must earthly death subconsciously loom to a celibate and sterile priesthood.
All transcendentalisms embody elements of apocalyptism. Typically these are used to provoke revivals when business is slack or attention is drifting elsewhere. Thus it is suddenly revealed that the final days are at hand or that some earthly dispute is in fact a titanic battle against evil spiritual agencies.
Materialist time is linear but unbounded. Ideally it can be extended arbitrarily far in either direction from the present. To the strict materialist it is self-evidently futile to speculate about a beginning or an end to time. Similarly the materialist is contemptuous of any speculations about any forms of personal existence before birth or after death. The materialist may well fear painful or premature death but can have no fears about being dead.
The magical view is that time is cyclic and that all processes recur. Even cycles which appear to begin or end are actually parts of larger cycles. Thus all endings are beginnings and the end of time is synonymous with the beginning of time in another universe. The magical view that everything is recycled is reflected in the doctrine of reincarnation. The attractive idea of reincarnation has often persisted into the religious paradigm and many pagan and even some monotheist traditions have retained it. However religious theories invariably contaminate the original idea with beliefs about a personal soul. From a strictly magical viewpoint we are an accretion rather than an unfolded unity. The psyche has no particular centre, we are colonial beings, a rich collage of many selves. Thus as our bodies contain fragments from countless former beings, so does our psyche. However certain magical traditions retain techniques which allow the adept to transfer quite large amounts of his psyche in one piece should he consider this more useful than dispersing himself into humanity at large.
Each of the paradigms take a different view of the self. Transcendentalists view self as spirit inserted into matter. As a fragment or figment of deity the self regards itself as somehow placed in the world in a non-arbitrary manner and endowed with free will. The transcendental view of self is relatively stable and non-problematic if shared as a consensus with all significant others. However, transcendental theories about the placement and purpose of self and its relationship to deities are mutually exclusive. Conflicting transcendentalisms can rarely co-exist for they threaten to disconform the images of self. Encounters which are not decisive tend to be mutually negatory in the long run.
Of the three views of self the purely materialistic one is the most problematical. If mind is an extension of matter it must obey material laws and the resulting deterministic view conflicts with the subjective experience of free will. On the other hand if mind and consciousness are assumed to be qualitatively different from matter then the self is incomprehensible to itself in material terms. Worse still perhaps, the materialist self must regard itself as a phenomenon of only temporary duration in contradiction of the subjective expectation of continuity of consciousness. Because a purely materialist view of self is so austere few are prepared to confront such naked existentialism. Consequently materialist cultures exhibit a frantic appetite for sensation, identification and more or less disposable irrational beliefs. Anything that will make the self seem less insubstantial.
The magical view of self is that it is based on the same random capricious chaos which makes the universe exist and do what it does. The magical self has no centre, it is not a unity but an assemblage of parts, any number of which may temorarily club together and call themselves 'I'. This accords with the observation that our subjective experience consists of our various selves experiencing each other. Free will arises either as an outcome of a dispute between our various selves or as a sudden random creation of a new idea or option. In the magical view of self there is no spirit/matter or mind/body split and the paradoxes of free will and determinism disappear. Some of our acts arise from random choices between conditioned options and some from conditional choices between randomly created options. In practice most of our acts are based on rather complex hierarchical sequences of all four of these mechanisms. As soon as we have acted one of our selves proclaims 'I did that!' so loudly that most of the other selves think they did it too.
Each of the three views of self has something derogatory to say about the other two. From the standpoint of the transcendental self the materialist self has become prey to pride of intellect, the demon hubris, whilst the magical view of self is considered to be entirely demonic. The material self views the transcendentalist as obsessed with assumptions having no basis in fact, and the magical self as being childlike and incoherent. From the standpoint of the magical view, the assorted selves of the transcendendatilst have ascribed a grossly exaggerated importance to one or a few of the selves which they call God or gods, whilst the materialist has attempted to make all his selves subordinate to the self that does the rational thinking. Ultimately it's a matter of faith and taste. The transcedentalist has faith in his god self, the materialist has faith in his reasoning self and the selves of the magician have faith in each other. Naturally, all these forms of faith are subject to periods of doubt. Anyways, why do you say your beliefs are constantly obliterated? I understand what you mean by that, but still I'd be interested if you could give some examples.
wow the Paradigm Shifts and Aeonics was fun to read! got more stuff like that?
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On February 17 2009 14:11 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 14:09 travis wrote:On February 17 2009 13:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 13:13 travis wrote:On February 17 2009 12:59 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 12:57 travis wrote: imo the real problem with christianity is the entire basis of it. "putting your faith in jesus" doesn't even mean anything. it's basically just a slogan. praise christ, amen. sure it does it means to stop searching for something to believe in for yourself, and to believe in what every other christian believes in: that jesus has already solved all your problems by dying for all your sins and offering eternal salvation. ok and so my salvation comes from believing that this event really happened? if jesus already saved me then why do I have to believe it? and if I have to believe in then in what way did he save me. because in (many forms of) christianity, salvation is gained by still personally having a relationship with god. you can't reap the benefits of something you don't acknowledge and appreciate. except that has absolutely nothing to do with "christ" your last sentence makes no grammatical sense.
that is because i typed "in" instead of "it" god is christ, same guy. father, son, holy ghost. i know this
he saved you because prior to that, there was no way to absolve yourself of your sins, so only true saints who did not sin would avoid hell.
you just contradicted yourself. first you say there is no way to absolve yourself of your sins, then you immediately say "true saints" could do it. aren't "true saints" people?
after jesus, the procedure became to cleanse yourself of sin via his forgiveness, which he bestowed upon the earth through jesus, his temporary human form.
Why do we have to do anything if he already forgave us? Can we not just forgive our selves?
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