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On February 17 2009 16:03 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 16:00 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 15:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 15:39 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 15:31 travis wrote: The biggest problem I have with it is that I have absolutely no good reason to believe it. I think that the message could be partially accurate but that it's a problem when it is taken too literally. This is true. Through reasoning there's a snowball's chance in hell of you believing that God exists. Rather than using your mind to understand everything, you'll need to experience it yourself. What you said in the second sentence is an example of using your mind to try and understand what the Bible teaches. Some people grow up in the church life and it's a lot easier because they're open to God existing. reasoning is what lead him to believe that most flavors of christianity are unfair though why would one even want to experience the reality of such an unfair religion? + Show Spoiler +for reference, the flavors of christianity i consider the closest to fair are the ones where only good works and a pious life are required, not faith Don't you remember that in the Bible there were two trees in the Garden of Eden? The Tree of Life, which is what God wants man to eat from, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Why is it that good and evil are on the same tree? Because God didn't simply intend for us to good and stray away from evil. God wanted us to partake of Him as life. so how does that make me feel better about the people born in islamic areas or buddhist areas destined go to hell? they're evil for a reason? i'd rather go to hell as a martyr for all the people who're going to hell on complete chance than go to heaven because i'm lucky enough to know christianity and be able to practice it The truth is the truth, whether you believe or not, whether you like it or not.
Also, I find it really odd that you focus on what YOU want to believe. I'm guessing you don't follow to the Bible strictly but rather as a guideline?
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i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything).
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The Apocryphon of John has some stuff to say about the Garden of Eden. Its so wild that it was not included in the original bible, even though it was written by John.
It was used by a form of early Christians, the Gnostics. They believed that one is saved through knowlege (gnosis). In fact a number of ancient texts on the subject were discovered on the subject. Anyway, here are their core beliefs:
The Ten Major Principles of the Gnostic Revelation From Exegesis, by Philip K. Dick The Gnostic Christians of the second century believed that only a special revelation of knowledge rather than faith could save a person. The contents of this revelation could not be received empirically or derived a priori. They considered this special gnosis so valuable that it must be kept secret. Here are the ten major principles of the gnostic revelation:
1. The creator of this world is demented. 2. The world is not as it appears, in order to hide the evil in it, a delusive veil obscuring it and the deranged deity. 3. There is another, better realm of God, and all our efforts are to be directed toward 1. returning there 2. bringing it here 4. Our actual lives stretch thousands of years back, and we can be made to remember our origin in the stars. 5. Each of us has a divine counterpart unfallen who can reach a hand down to us to awaken us. This other personality is the authentic waking self; the one we have now is asleep and minor. We are in fact asleep, and in the hands of a dangerous magician disguised as a good god, the deranged creator deity. The bleakness, the evil and pain in this world, the fact that it is a deterministic prison controlled by the demented creator causes us willingly to split with the reality principle early in life, and so to speak willingly fall asleep in delusion. 6. You can pass from the delusional prison world into the peaceful kingdom if the True Good God places you under His grace and allows you to see reality through His eyes. 7. Christ gave, rather than received, revelation; he taught his followers how to enter the kingdom while still alive, where other mystery religions only bring about amnesis: knowledge of it at the "other time" in "the other realm," not here. He causes it to come here, and is the living agency to the Sole Good God (i.e. the Logos). 8. Probably the real, secret Christian church still exists, long underground, with the living Corpus Christi as its head or ruler, the members absorbed into it. Through participation in it they probably have vast, seemingly magical powers. 9. The division into "two times" (good and evil) and "two realms" (good and evil) will abruptly end with victory for the good time here, as the presently invisible kingdom separates and becomes visible. We cannot know the date. 10. During this time period we are on the sifting bridge being judged according to which power we give allegiance to, the deranged creator demiurge of this world or the One Good God and his kingdom, whom we know through Christ.
This was at one time mainstream Christianity. Just goes to show you shouldn't make assumptions.
+ Show Spoiler + What is Gnosticism?
“Gnosis” and “Gnosticism” are still rather arcane terms, though in the last two decades they have been increasingly encountered in the vocabulary of contemporary society. The word Gnosis derives from Greek and connotes "knowledge" or the "act of knowing". On first hearing, it is sometimes confused with another more common term of the same root but opposite sense: agnostic, literally "not knowing”. The Greek language differentiates between rational, propositional knowledge, and a distinct form of knowing obtained by experience or perception. It is this latter knowledge gained from interior comprehension and personal experience that constitutes gnosis.1
In the first century of the Christian era the term “Gnostic” came to denote a heterodox segment of the diverse new Christian community. Among early followers of Christ it appears there were groups who delineated themselves from the greater household of the Church by claiming not simply a belief in Christ and his message, but a "special witness" or revelatory experience of the divine. It was this experience or gnosis that set the true follower of Christ apart, so they asserted. Stephan Hoeller explains that these Christians held a "conviction that direct, personal and absolute knowledge of the authentic truths of existence is accessible to human beings, and, moreover, that the attainment of such knowledge must always constitute the supreme achievement of human life."2
What the "authentic truths of existence" affirmed by the Gnostics were will be briefly reviewed below, but first a historical overview of the early Church might be useful. In the initial century and a half of Christianity -- the period when we find first mention of "Gnostic" Christians -- no single acceptable format of Christian thought had yet been defined. During this formative period Gnosticism was one of many currents moving within the deep waters of the new religion. The ultimate course Christianity, and Western culture with it, would take was undecided at this early moment. Gnosticism was one of the seminal influences shaping that destiny.
That Gnosticism was, at least briefly, in the mainstream of Christianity is witnessed by the fact that one of its most influential teachers, Valentinus, may have been in consideration during the mid-second century for election as the Bishop of Rome.3 Born in Alexandria around 100 C.E., Valentinus distinguished himself at an early age as an extraordinary teacher and leader in the highly educated and diverse Alexandrian Christian community. In mid-life he migrated from Alexandria to the Church's evolving capital, Rome, where he played an active role in the public affairs of the Church. A prime characteristic of Gnostics was their claim to be keepers of sacred traditions, gospels, rituals, and successions – esoteric matters for which many Christians were either not properly prepared or simply not inclined. Valentinus, true to this Gnostic predilection, apparently professed to have received a special apostolic sanction through Theudas, a disciple and initiate of the Apostle Paul, and to be a custodian of doctrines and rituals neglected by what would become Christian orthodoxy.4 Though an influential member of the Roman church in the mid-second century, by the end of his life Valentinus had been forced from the public eye and branded a heretic by the developing orthodoxy Church.
While the historical and theological details are far too complex for proper explication here, the tide of history can be said to have turned against Gnosticism in the middle of the second century. No Gnostic after Valentinus would ever come so near prominence in the greater Church. Gnosticism's emphasis on personal experience, its continuing revelations and production of new scripture, its asceticism and paradoxically contrasting libertine postures, were all met with increasing suspicion. By 180 C.E. Irenaeus, bishop of Lyon, was publishing his first attacks on Gnosticism as heresy, a labor that would be continued with increasing vehemence by the church Fathers throughout the next century.
Orthodoxy Christianity was deeply and profoundly influenced by its struggles with Gnosticism in the second and third centuries. Formulations of many central traditions in Christian theology came as reflections and shadows of this confrontation with the Gnosis.5 But by the end of the fourth century the struggle was essentially over: the evolving ecclesia had added the force of political correctness to dogmatic denunciation, and with this sword so-called "heresy" was painfully cut from the Christian body. Gnosticism as a Christian tradition was largely eradicated, its remaining teachers ostracized, and its sacred books destroyed. All that remained for students seeking to understand Gnosticism in later centuries were the denunciations and fragments preserved in the patristic heresiologies. Or at least so it seemed until the mid-twentieth century. Discovery of the Nag Hammadi Library
It was on a December day in the year of 1945, near the town of Nag Hammadi in Upper Egypt, that the course of Gnostic studies was radically renewed and forever changed. An Arab peasant, digging around a boulder in search of fertilizer for his fields, happened upon an old, rather large red earthenware jar. Hoping to have found a buried treasure, and with due hesitation and apprehension about the jinn who might attend such a hoard, he smashed the jar open. Inside he discovered no treasure and no genie, but instead books: more than a dozen old codices bound in golden brown leather.6 Little did he realize that he had found an extraordinary collection of ancient texts, manuscripts hidden a millennium and a half before -- probably by monks from the nearby monastery of St. Pachomius seeking to preserve them from a destruction ordered by the church as part of its violent expunging of heterodoxy and heresy.
How the Nag Hammadi manuscripts eventually passed into scholarly hands is a fascinating story too lengthy to relate here. But today, now over fifty years since being unearthed and more than two decades after final translation and publication in English as The Nag Hammadi Library, 7 their importance has become astoundingly clear: These thirteen papyrus codices containing fifty-two sacred texts are representatives of the long lost "Gnostic Gospels", a last extant testament of what orthodox Christianity perceived to be its most dangerous and insidious challenge, the feared opponent that the Church Fathers had reviled under many different names, but most commonly as Gnosticism. The discovery of the Nag Hammadi texts has fundamentally revised our understanding of both Gnosticism and the early Christian church. Overview of Gnostic Teachings
What was it that these "knowers" knew? What made them such dangerous heretics? The complexities of Gnosticism are legion, making any generalizations wisely suspect. While several systems for defining and categorizing Gnosticism have been proposed over the years, none has gained any general acceptance.8 So with advance warning that this is most certainly not a definitive summary of Gnosticism and its many permutations, we will outline just four elements generally agreed to be characteristic of Gnostic thought.
The first essential characteristic of Gnosticism was introduced above: Gnosticism asserts that "direct, personal and absolute knowledge of the authentic truths of existence is accessible to human beings," and that the attainment of such knowledge is the supreme achievement of human life. Gnosis is not a rational, propositional, logical understanding, but a knowing acquired by experience. The Gnostics were not much interested in dogma or coherent, rational theology -- a fact that makes the study of Gnosticism particularly difficult for individuals with "bookkeeper mentalities. One simply cannot cipher up Gnosticism into syllogistic dogmatic affirmations. The Gnostics cherished the ongoing force of divine revelation--Gnosis was the creative experience of revelation, a rushing progression of understanding, and not a static creed. Carl Gustav Jung, the great Swiss psychologist and a life-long student of Gnosticism in its various historical permutations, affirms,
…We find in Gnosticism what was lacking in the centuries that followed: a belief in the efficacy of individual revelation and individual knowledge. This belief was rooted in the proud feeling of man's affinity with the gods....
In his study, The American Religion, noted literary critic Harold Bloom suggests a second characteristic of Gnosticism that might help us conceptually circumscribe its mysterious heart. Gnosticism, says Bloom, "is a knowing, by and of an uncreated self, or self-within-the self, and [this] knowledge leads to freedom...."9 Primary among all the revelatory perceptions a Gnostic might reach was the profound awakening that came with knowledge that something within him was uncreated. The Gnostics called this "uncreated self" the divine seed, the pearl, the spark of knowing: consciousness, intelligence, light. And this seed of intellect was the self-same substance of God. It was man's authentic reality, the glory of humankind and divinity alike. If woman or man truly came to gnosis of this spark, she understood that she was truly free: Not contingent, not a conception of sin, not a flawed crust of flesh, but the stuff of God, and the conduit of God's immanent realization. There was always a paradoxical cognizance of duality in experiencing this "self-within-a-self". How could it not be paradoxical: By all rational perception, man clearly was not God, and yet in essential truth, was Godly. This conundrum was a Gnostic mystery, and its knowing was their treasure.
The creator god, the one who claimed in evolving orthodox dogma to have made man, and to own him, the god who would have man contingent upon him, born ex nihilo by his will, was a lying demon and not God at all. Gnostics called him by many deprecatory names: "Saklas", the fool; "Ialdebaoth", the blind god; and "Demiurge", the architect or lesser creative force.
Theodotus, a Gnostic teacher writing in Asia Minor between 140 and 160 C.E., explained that the sacred strength of gnosis reveals "who we were, what we have become, where we have been cast out of, where we are bound for, what we have been purified of, what generation and regeneration are."10 "Yet", the eminent scholar of Gnosticism, Elaine Pagels, comments in exegesis, "to know oneself, at the deepest level, is simultaneously to know God: this is the secret of gnosis.... Self-knowledge is knowledge of God; the self and the divine are identical." 11
The Gospel of Thomas, one of the Gnostic texts found preserved in the Nag Hammadi Library, gives these words of the living Jesus:
Jesus said, `I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become drunk from the bubbling stream which I have measured out.... 12
He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him.' 13
He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: What a remarkably heretical image! The Gospel of Thomas in its entirety is an extraordinary scripture. Professor Helmut Koester of Harvard University notes that though ultimately this Gospel was condemned and destroyed by the evolving orthodox church, it may be as old or older than the four canonical gospels preserved, and even have served as a source document to them.14
This brings us to the third prominent element in our brief summary of Gnosticism: its reverence for texts and scriptures unaccepted by the orthodox fold. Gnostic experience was mythopoetic: in story and metaphor, and perhaps also in ritual enactments, Gnosticism sought expression of subtle, visionary insights inexpressible by rational proposition or dogmatic affirmation. For the Gnostics, revelation was the nature of Gnosis. Irritated by their profusion of "inspired texts" and myths, Ireneaus complains in his classic second century refutation of Gnosticism, that “…every one of them generates something new, day by day, according to his ability; for no one is deemed perfect, who does not develop...some mighty fiction.”16
The fourth characteristic that we might delineate to understand classical Gnosticism is the most difficult of the four to succinctly untangle, and also one of the most disturbing to subsequent orthodox theology. This is the image of God as a dyad or duality. While affirming the ultimate unity and integrity of the Divine, Gnosticism noted in its experiential encounter with the numinous, contrasting manifestations and qualities.
In many of the Nag Hammadi Gnostic texts God is imaged as a dyad of masculine and feminine elements. Though their language is specifically Christian, Gnostic sources often use sexual symbolism to describe God. Prof. Pagels explains,
One group of gnostic sources claims to have received a secret tradition from Jesus through James and through Mary Magdalene [who the Gnostics revered as consort to Jesus]. Members of this group prayed to both the divine Father and Mother:
`From Thee, Father, and through Thee, Mother, the two immortal names, Parents of the divine being, and thou, dweller in heaven, humanity, of the mighty name...'17
Several trends within Gnosticism saw in God a union of two disparate natures, a union well imaged with sexual symbolism. Gnostics honored the feminine nature and, in reflection, Elaine Pagels has argued that Christian Gnostic women enjoyed a far greater degree of social and ecclesiastical equality than their orthodox sisters. Jesus himself, taught some Gnostics, had prefigured this mystic relationship: His most beloved disciple had been a woman, Mary Magdalene, his consort. The Gospel of Philip relates,
"...the companion of the Savior is Mary Magdalene. But Christ loved her more than all the disciples, and used to kiss her often on her mouth. The rest of the disciples were offended... They said to him, "Why do you love her more than all of us? the Savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you as I love her?"18
The most mysterious and sacred of all Gnostic rituals may have played upon this perception of God as "duality seeking unity." The Gospel of Philip (which in its entirety might be read as a commentary on Gnostic ritual) relates that the Lord established five great sacraments or mysteries: "a baptism and a chrism, and a eucharist, and a redemption, and a bridal chamber."19 Whether this ultimate sacrament of the bridal chamber was a ritual enacted by a man and women, an allegorical term for a mystical experience, or a union of both, we do not know. Only hints are given in Gnostic texts about what this sacrament might be:
Christ came to rectify the separation...and join the two components; and to give life unto those who had died by separation and join them together. Now a woman joins with her husband in the bridal [chamber], and those who have joined in the bridal [chamber] will not reseparate.20
We are left with our poetic imaginations to consider what this might mean. Though Orthodox polemicists frequently accused Gnostics of unorthodox sexual behavior, exactly how these ideas and images played out in human affairs remains historically uncertain.
Classical Christian Gnosticism was lost to the Western world during the fourth and fifth centuries. But the Gnostic world view -- with its comprehension of humankind's true uncreated nature and inherent affinity with God; its affirmation of interior individual experience granting certain knowledge; and its awareness of demiurgic forces binding human consciousness -- was not so easily extinguished. These Gnostic perceptions continued in various forms to course through Western culture though perforce often by occult paths. Gnosticism was and is today a tradition perpetually reborn in the gnosis kardia of humankind, a tradition eternally alive within those “who have ears to hear” its call.
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wait fight_or_flight, could you shave that down to the main points and how they impact our argument? summary please
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The quote has the main points, which are the things they believed are different than the arguments which are being made right now against Christianity (which may be valid arguments but don't disprove that the whole of Christianity is wrong, just possibly specific points).
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On February 17 2009 16:20 fight_or_flight wrote: The quote has the main points, which are the things they believed are different than the arguments which are being made right now against Christianity (which may be valid arguments but don't disprove that the whole of Christianity is wrong, just possibly specific points). i actually haven't been trying to prove christianity is wrong by attacking the claims it makes, only that the idea that most christians follow of faith in jesus jesus being the only way to salvation is inherently unfair.
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On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything). How is this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?
I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?
Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice?
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On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything). How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell? I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel? Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice? im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place.
edit: and did you just call it whining and complaining? would you call protests against the genocide in darfur whining and complaining? cuz most of those people are probably going to hell cuz most of those people probably aren't christian.
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really, how would you feel if you were born a girl in darfur, knowing nothing but the need to survive, then being struck by a war, then being raped and killed
and then you find out you're going to suffer for eternity because you didn't know about this cool dude named jesus christ
you'd feel pretty shitty
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On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything). How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell? I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel? Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice? im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place. Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease.
There are two possible reactions.
1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar. 2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever.
Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease?
No.
Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy.
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On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything). How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell? I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel? Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice? im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place. Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease. There are two possible reactions. 1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar. 2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever. Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease? No. Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy. IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE
if you think every single person would be and are offered this antidote (of jesus), you are delusional
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On February 17 2009 16:36 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: really, how would you feel if you were born a girl in darfur, knowing nothing but the need to survive, then being struck by a war, then being raped and killed
and then you find out you're going to suffer for eternity because you didn't know about this cool dude named jesus christ I know where you're coming from but really, it is up to God what happens. I don't know how God will judge those who never even heard the gospel. Complaining about the unfairness of this when you DON'T EVEN know how things will occur, however, is absurd.
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On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything). How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell? I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel? Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice? im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place. Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease. There are two possible reactions. 1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar. 2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever. Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease? No. Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy. IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now.
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On February 17 2009 16:38 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 16:36 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: really, how would you feel if you were born a girl in darfur, knowing nothing but the need to survive, then being struck by a war, then being raped and killed
and then you find out you're going to suffer for eternity because you didn't know about this cool dude named jesus christ I know where you're coming from but really, it is up to God what happens. I don't know how God will judge those who never even heard the gospel. Complaining about the unfairness of this when you DON'T EVEN know how things will occur, however, is absurd. deus ex machina for everybody who doesnt get an opportunity?
that sounds like bad writing to me
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On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything). How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell? I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel? Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice? im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place. Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease. There are two possible reactions. 1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar. 2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever. Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease? No. Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy. IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now. but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole.
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On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything). How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell? I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel? Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice? im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place. Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease. There are two possible reactions. 1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar. 2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever. Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease? No. Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy. IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now. but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole. Did God create sin?
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On February 17 2009 16:41 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything). How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell? I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel? Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice? im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place. Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease. There are two possible reactions. 1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar. 2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever. Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease? No. Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy. IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now. but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole. Did God create sin? god created everything
and im not insulting you, i'm insulting god for being such an asshole why would you ninja edit me like that?
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On February 17 2009 16:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 16:41 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything). How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell? I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel? Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice? im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place. Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease. There are two possible reactions. 1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar. 2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever. Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease? No. Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy. IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now. but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole. Did God create sin? god created everything So you're saying God thought something along the lines of "yay let's give everyone a disease that kills them and forces me to do even more stuff to save them!"
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On February 17 2009 16:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 16:41 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything). How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell? I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel? Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice? im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place. Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease. There are two possible reactions. 1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar. 2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever. Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease? No. Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy. IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now. but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole. Did God create sin? god created everything and im not insulting you, i'm insulting god for being such an asshole why would you ninja edit me like that? Sorry, I realized you were talking in context of the analogy.
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On February 17 2009 16:44 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 16:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:41 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:14 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i dont see how anybody could like that, except maybe the ones selfish and callous enough to partake in randomly good fortune at the expense of the ones unfortunate enough to go to hell(and that's just it, fortune, not achievement or anything). How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell? I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel? Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice? im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place. Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease. There are two possible reactions. 1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar. 2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever. Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease? No. Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy. IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now. but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole. Did God create sin? god created everything So you're saying God thought something along the lines of "yay let's give everyone a disease that kills them and forces me to do even more stuff to save them!" it's what genesis and a whooooooole bunch of christians say
if you beg to differ, feel free to found your own denomination of christianity
you can call it "Church of the God that's our Friend that helps Combat the Evil that Came Out of Nowhere"
i mean most christians say evil came from the fact that god gave humans free will, but you're saying god is helping humans against evil that came from ???
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