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On February 17 2009 21:42 Mada_Jiang wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 21:25 IdrA wrote:
ill dedicate the win to you if you stop basing your life around hallucinations LOL, alright mate, I will be looking forward to see that dedication at the end of the series. Like I said before, It's almost impossible to debate or reason with someone who hasn't felt the love of God and seen his works. You can't see heat, but exists because you can feel it and see its influence. You can say its hallucinations without even experiencing it, but mate... I would say you are really missing out. Peace be with you Idra. Play good, I got 20 bucks on ya!
theres lots of people in the loony bin who are really *really* fucking sure their dead relative's ghosts told them to kill some guy.
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I think a huge part of why people follow religion because they are afraid of what will happen to them after death.
They don't want their spirit or soul(if there is one) to be tortured in hell for all eternity(and honestly, who would?).
Of course we can't know whether there is life after death as we are alive, so people think : why should I upset god(or whoever you belive in) when there is even the smallest of chance that you will be forever trapped in hell.
On the opposite side we have the people with the view that when we are dead our conciousness will just seize to exist, or that what happens to us after death has no connection to how we acted in this life.
It ultimately comes down to what you want to belive in.
Is this life all we have, or is there something beyond(which is connected to how good/bad we acted in this life)?
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On February 17 2009 15:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 15:26 travis wrote:
ok but so, all the muslims and jews and hindus etc who believe they have a personal relationship with god are wrong and will go to hell for a lack of faith in jesus? despite pious and virtuous lives?
yep. if they sin at all, and never ask jesus for forgiveness, they're screwed. that's the biggest problem i have with christianity. some of the more hardcore christians in this thread would claim that god attempts to reach out and teach these truths via dreams/revelations to all sinners, but that seems a little far-fetched to me.
After my test on Friday I will explain how not all Christians believe this and how God saves those who never even hear of Jesus Christ.
The short of it is, even I can see that cursing people for simply being born in the wrong place, and never being able to learn about Christ is not just. So do you think I am more merciful than God? Not hardly. He is more merciful than any of us. I will explain later what his plan is.
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On February 17 2009 13:58 TechniQ.UK wrote:
As for the claim Jesus didn't for fill some promises, those 5 you listed. I went through them and quite a number of them actually we're for filled, e.g. the Jews coming from 4 corners was about the gospel going everywhere and the Jews in other nations being converted under one banner along with gentiles.
Jesus fulfilled none of the prophecies I posted.
And Isaiah 11:12 is about exactly what I said it was about: the end of the diaspora and the return of Jews to their promised land. That prophecy has nothing to do with gentiles doing anything or the gospel going anywhere.
and i think i listed 2 of them that are linked to the book of revelation prophecy so they will be for filled by Jesus.
So he fucked up last time, but he'll definitely get it right "next time"!
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On February 18 2009 01:33 Savio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 15:28 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 15:26 travis wrote:
ok but so, all the muslims and jews and hindus etc who believe they have a personal relationship with god are wrong and will go to hell for a lack of faith in jesus? despite pious and virtuous lives?
yep. if they sin at all, and never ask jesus for forgiveness, they're screwed. that's the biggest problem i have with christianity. some of the more hardcore christians in this thread would claim that god attempts to reach out and teach these truths via dreams/revelations to all sinners, but that seems a little far-fetched to me. After my test on Friday I will explain how not all Christians believe this and how God saves those who never even hear of Jesus Christ. The short of it is, even I can see that cursing people for simply being born in the wrong place, and never being able to learn about Christ is not just. So do you think I am more merciful than God? Not hardly. He is more merciful than any of us. I will explain later what his plan is.
You're a prophet or something?
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On February 17 2009 16:45 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2009 16:44 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:42 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:41 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:39 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:37 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:36 BanZu wrote:On February 17 2009 16:23 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On February 17 2009 16:21 BanZu wrote:
[quote]
How does this "random good fortune" at the expense of others? Does my belief in God force others to go to hell? Does my ceasing of this belief save others from hell?
I can't say anything about the topic of people being saved as being random and a fortune, because frankly I don't know how God intends on carrying out judgment. However, instead of whining and complaining about things being unfair, why not go out and preach the gospel?
Also, would you say that those who reject your words and being at a misfortune? Is it not their choice? im not talking about the ones with a choice, im talking about the ones never exposed to the choice. they go to hell for no reason other than misfortune. my salvation wouldn't be at the direct expense of others, but it'd be spitting in the face of the ones who go to hell for no reason. the fact that these people exist proves that christianity is inherently unfair. preaching the gospel may even the odds slightly, but there shouldn't have been innocent casualties in the first place. Let's say everyone in the world contracts a fatal disease that slowly kills off the victim, and all-the-while the victim is unaware. I come to you with an antidote and tell you that if you took it everyday you wouldn't die from this disease. There are two possible reactions. 1. You say that I'm stupid, ignorant, and delusional and call me a liar. 2. You take my word as truth, take the antidote, and live forever. Now, let's say that you took the first route. Does it sound right in this case for you to call me a liar? Probably, because you want solid evidence showing what I have told you. Does it sound right in this case for you to say that I'm condemning you to death? That I'm unfair in saying that you will die from this disease? No. Your post and views are ridiculous if you just take a look at this analogy. IM TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARENT OFFERED THE ANTIDOTE if you think every single person would be offered this antidote, you are delusional Wow, read it again. You're condemning me for what the DISEASE is doing now. but you, being jesus/god, created the disease. you created everything. you're an asshole. Did God create sin? god created everything So you're saying God thought something along the lines of "yay let's give everyone a disease that kills them and forces me to do even more stuff to save them!" it's what genesis and a whooooooole bunch of christians say if you beg to differ, feel free to found your own denomination of christianity you can call it "Church of the God that's our Friend that helps Combat the Evil that Came Out of Nowhere" i mean most christians say evil came from the fact that god gave humans free will, but you're saying god is helping humans against evil that came from ???
Man, everyone continued the party without me!
Sin, as a result of Evil, does not exist in itself, much like darkness does not exist as an entity (like photons), but exists as the absence of light. Therefore, God did not create Evil, but it has always existed with the existence of free will, a divergence from what is good (the standard being God).
When God created mankind, he must have known they would have sinned, being omniscient and outside of space and time. This only means that he knew, not that he forced. Free will still exists within time; it is pointless to discuss it outside of time.
This is why, with the first instance of sin at the human level with Adam and Eve, God provided a way out through Jesus Christ (this is prophesied in Genesis). Why God chose this method, or why he created us at all knowing this would happen are all valid questions, but they also go beyond finite comprehension.
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What is it that convinces you that Christianity is the true religion beliving in the right God, and that not Jewism(?) or Islam is the right religion?.
I think it comes down to that most people haven't really done much research on anything but their own religion, which they have been growing up with as part of their childhood(for example sunday church).
How can you say you are making the right choice when you haven't read all the scriptures from all the different religions out there?
What IS the right choice?
Basically you are trying to justify why you made the "right" choice, by proving why christianty is such a superior choice of way to live your life.
All in all, discussing religion is just bullshit, since you can never come up with proof that God exists(except point to scriputres that were written by humans... go figure).
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Mindcrime, you use sweeping statements with having no scriptural knowledge at all. If you maybe read the bible and understood it then you would understand he did for fill them. As for revelation, the old testament didn't define the exact time that Jesus would for fill these commandments so for filling it in revelation later, is logically still applicable.
Not for filling a prophecy and haven't for filled it a prophecy yet is 2 different things.
but it's ok it's clear your just throwing other peoples opinions at Christianity instead of bringing a logical argument to me.
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This is unrelated, but what was the name of those things sold by the catholic church a long time ago which basically allowed someone to "buy" their way into heaven? (It might have began with a C) I tried googling stuff but all I got was song lyrics and irrelevant blog posts.
I remember it from a history class but can't remember the name for them.
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Your messiah accomplished none of the important messianic prophesies laid out in the Tanakh. Just accept that.
Hell, if either of the genealogies presented in the gospels are correct then Jesus did not even have the required pedigree.
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i like how the 5 or so christians in this thread are selling christianity through such different mediums. some are selling a completely loving god and denying the fact that god damns anybody, some are selling a god powerless to reach out to at least everybody once in their life....
it's pretty funny.
the fact that savio had to even use the phrase "not all christians" shows how splintered it is
the fact that banzu is trying to justify unfairness that mada_jiang doesn't even acknowledge is funny too.
refer back to my aristotle analogy plz
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=87907¤tpage=4#79
the innate unfairness of the doctrines of christianity, taken literally to mean jesus is necessary for salvation, has been resolved or ignored in so many different ways by you guys, just like the wandering planets were explained so many ways in the context of an earth-centered universe. is the problem in resolving the unfairness, or the unfairness itself? was the problem in resolving the planets, or the geocentric model itself?
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On February 18 2009 02:51 ruXxar wrote:
What is it that convinces you that Christianity is the true religion beliving in the right God, and that not Jewism(?) or Islam is the right religion?.
I think it comes down to that most people haven't really done much research on anything but their own religion, which they have been growing up with as part of their childhood(for example sunday church).
How can you say you are making the right choice when you haven't read all the scriptures from all the different religions out there?
What IS the right choice?
Basically you are trying to justify why you made the "right" choice, by proving why christianty is such a superior choice of way to live your life.
All in all, discussing religion is just bullshit, since you can never come up with proof that God exists(except point to scriputres that were written by humans... go figure).
First you say that you think it comes down to people not doing research. Then you make that assumption that people don't do research when they make their claims. Trust me, there are people who devote their lives to research on all sides of this discussion. Do you refuse to believe that you can make an informed decision once you have looked into each religion? Not all views are equally valid (I posted this before), but all views deserve to be respected and given a audience.
That's why I agree with you to a certain extent that you have to look into the other side of the discussion. However, if someone comes to a decision, it doesn't mean that they're willfully ignoring the rest.
For example, if you want to compare the Bible to the Qur'an, the Bible is historically falsifiable, presenting names of places, rulers during that time, etc that are historically accurate, while the Qur'an, or even the Mormon 'Bible' fails in this respect.
The Mormon Bible has gone through countless revisions (that are not just grammatical) that are well documented, while claiming that the Bible itself has gone through countless translations, thus losing accuracy. However, the Bible has be translated countless times from the original Hebrew and Aramaic, not from each other.
Facts likes these put one view in a better light than others (not necessarily Christianity either).
On February 18 2009 06:08 BackHo wrote:
I feel as though my questions were not adequately addressed - please answer in the numbering style provided if possible:
1. If God wanted humanity to develop maturity and discernment, doesn't it seem slightly backward that the tree they were forbidden to touch was said to offer that very thing - the knowledge of good and evil?
ie. the "God wants us to love Him" argument.
Would God be so insufficient that you needed a tree to gain the discernment God wants for you? The fact is that God told them not to do it. They could have gotten discernment from God, and much more easily.
2. If God didn't want us to grow from sinner to saved and wanted Adam and Eve to get everything right and for the world to stay perfect, and He didn't want them to eat the fruit, why put the tree there? To give humanity the choice? But if humanity is better off without the choice, isn't that kinda stupid?
ie. So which one is it, He wants to give us free will or He never intended for us to have free will?
If you would rather not have choice, then you are unlike all the people I know. You exercise choice everyday, down to making your posts. Choice is there, because without it, it's like rape, forced 'love' if you will.
Another example: You tell yourself that you will stop watching TV. By removing the TV from your home, you lose the ability to watch TV at all. This is no feat, you have no choice even if you wanted to. A bigger feat would be not watch TV while it still resides in your home.
3. God says: "if you eat from it you will surely die". If God knew all along that Adam and Eve would take the fruit and choose to sin, and put it there intentionally, so that they'd take it and learn some important lessons - painful though it would be for all concerned - why does He forbid them to touch it? Is it even plausible to say we're somehow better off in a post-fall world? Is that kind of sick and sadistic?
ie. Why did God tell them not to eat it? Was it a reverse psychology trick because all along He DID want them to eat it in order for them to exercise their free will and choose to love Him?
Again, God had to have known, he transcends space and time. This doesn't detract from our free will. God knowing something will happen does not mean he made it happen. I don't believe the post-fall world is better than a pre-fall world. But events transpired and this is what happened.
On February 18 2009 07:09 Nytefish wrote:
This is unrelated, but what was the name of those things sold by the catholic church a long time ago which basically allowed someone to "buy" their way into heaven? (It might have began with a C) I tried googling stuff but all I got was song lyrics and irrelevant blog posts.
I remember it from a history class but can't remember the name for them.
I believe these are called Indulgences. It was a monetary means of purchasing forgiveness or absolution. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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On February 18 2009 08:00 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:i like how the 5 or so christians in this thread are selling christianity through such different mediums. some are selling a completely loving god and denying the fact that god damns anybody, some are selling a god powerless to reach out to at least everybody once in their life.... it's pretty funny. the fact that savio had to even use the phrase "not all christians" shows how splintered it is the fact that banzu is trying to justify unfairness that mada_jiang doesn't even acknowledge is funny too. refer back to my aristotle analogy plz http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=87907¤tpage=4#79the innate unfairness of the doctrines of christianity, taken literally to mean jesus is necessary for salvation, has been resolved or ignored in so many different ways by you guys, just like the wandering planets were explained so many ways in the context of an earth-centered universe. is the problem in resolving the unfairness, or the unfairness itself? was the problem in resolving the planets, or the geocentric model itself?
Many Christians believe different things to a different degree. Again, as long as these points are minor, or are not core beliefs, I don't see a problem with it and it also encourages discussion and debate.
I believe I am 'speaking' of a God who loves all but gives choice (those who choose not to be with God are respected for their decision and are removed from God for eternity). I also believe in a God who isn't bound by human effort. What kind of omnipotent God needs a person to go preach to another person in a non-Christian country?
On your topic of unfairness, you're right, it's not fair. I'll be the first to admit it. Jesus being necessary for salvation is just like a VIP pass being necessary to get into a club. Except in this case the VIP pass is free and all you do is ask for it. There is a rule, and people find it unfair, but arguing about it doesn't make that VIP pass regulation go away. Ultimately, some people don't like the idea and don't go at all.
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I still want to know why we can't save our selves.
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So tell me then Chromyne, what makes you so certain that the Bible has not been altered, but that the Qur'an has?
What makes you think that the Bible in some way is more right than the Qur'an?(which is what you MUST think, or else you'd be a muslim)
Have you yourself read the Qur'an and checked up on every historical event?
Have you done the same for the bible?
Why should the events that took place in the bible be any more legit than those taking place in the Qur'an.
The Qur'an is alot younger than the Bible, and from what I've read, it has no alterations made to it. But Of course, I can not go back in time and prove that, nor can you do the same for the Bible.
But if we follow the train of thought that we are to trust the stories and writings of humans that lived before, than the Qur'an should be just as valid as the Bible, since both events are backed up by recordings of the people at that time.
How much do you actually know about the Qur'an and what is written therein?
Edit : just taking the Qur'an as an example here.
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On February 18 2009 08:56 ruXxar wrote:
So tell me then Chromyne, what makes you so certain that the Bible has not been altered, but that the Qur'an has?
What makes you think that the Bible in some way is more right than the Qur'an?(which is what you MUST think, or else you'd be a muslim)
Have you yourself read the Qur'an and checked up on every historical event?
Have you done the same for the bible?
Why should the events that took place in the bible be any more legit than those taking place in the Qur'an.
The Qur'an is alot younger than the Bible, and from what I've read, it has no alterations made to it. But Of course, I can not go back in time and prove that, nor can you do the same for the Bible.
But if we follow the train of thought that we are to trust the stories and writings of humans that lived before, than the Qur'an should be just as valid as the Bible, since both events are backed up by recordings of the people at that time.
How much do you actually know about the Qur'an and what is written therein?
It is clear that anything I say in reply will be insufficient in your eyes. You want absolute certainty with no room for any doubt. That's more certainty than knowing the chair you sit on will hold you up, or that your life won't end any second (or else you would never plan for the future). This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's not possible (as all the aggressive Atheists have already stated multiple times) and I'm quite sure you know it is, so I don't know what you're getting at because that conclusion has already been made.
I made a claim that the fact that the Bible refers to more falsifiable facts (names, places, events) than the Qur'an, that it is put in a better light. However, just looking at text, it should be just as valid as the Bible.
Now [for the sake of this illustration] you have two valid alternatives, but they are contradictory. Islam appears to be a continuation of Christianity as it affirms [parts of] the Bible, but denies many core aspects such as the crucifixion of Jesus, and the nature of God. This sort of pick and choose doesn't bode well with me. We could go into the text and start a whole 'contradictions' debate, but this is just rhetorical head games and won't further discussion.
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EPT
