Seeking Religion - Page 10

On February 16 2009 10:16 conCentrate9 wrote:
Joseph Smith went through the same thing you are going through now ~200 years ago. While reading The Bible, he did as James 1:5 advises and asked God which church he should join. There was no church on earth that was adequate at the time, but God used Joseph Smith as his tool in crafting his true church.

If you begin to seek truth, as Joseph Smith did, and you pray as James 1:5 advises, you will know which religion is for you.

On February 18 2009 09:19 BackHo wrote:


Heck, don't limit the inconsistencies to just Christians and how they interpret the Bible... How can they interpret it consistently when it contradicts itself:

"For I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." (Jeremiah 3:12)
"Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." (Jeremiah 17:4)

"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid." (John 5:31)
"Jesus answered: Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid." (John 8:14)

"And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)
"The whole world is under control of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)

And Jesus said, "For judgement I am come into this world." (John 9:39)
"I came not to judge the world" (John 12:47)

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16)
"Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)

"Jacob said, 'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'" (Genesis 32:30)
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)

We should fear God (Matthew 10:28)
We should love God (Matthew 22:37)
There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18)

On February 18 2009 09:24 BackHo wrote:


So are you saying in the beginning God did not know how things would end up when He created the Garden of Eden. He did not know whether Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, even though He could have known if He wanted to look into the future. So He decided to limit Himself. And as a result allowed the possibility for everything to screw up and for sin to enter into the world, but then later tried to remedy it by having His Son die for the mistakes. But then still allowing countless millions of people (based on Jesus' words that narrow is the gate and few enter through) to die and go to Hell because they weren't in a relationship with Him.

If that's what you believe that's fine. However, I find that to be very cruel and unfair - regardless of what God's definition of cruelty and fairness are. The above to me just makes me think: "what an idiot God is for creating us in the first place". And yes, for millions of people (eg. in third world countries) to not have come into existence in the first place and suffer life's cruelties would be a far better alternative than being born and having to make choices in life. You presume that everyone wants choice but that is perhaps because you live in a first world country where life is relatively good. But we don't get that choice, do we - we are not born out of our own free will.

On February 18 2009 08:44 Chromyne wrote:
On your topic of unfairness, you're right, it's not fair. I'll be the first to admit it. Jesus being necessary for salvation is just like a VIP pass being necessary to get into a club. Except in this case the VIP pass is free and all you do is ask for it. There is a rule, and people find it unfair, but arguing about it doesn't make that VIP pass regulation go away. Ultimately, some people don't like the idea and don't go at all.

On February 18 2009 11:49 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:

My issue isn't with the asking, it's with the finding out that this VIP pass exists in the first place is too much a matter of luck, which I've stated multiple times. I do think you've already agreed with this though, so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse. I'd be much more willing to take this pass if it was obvious that every human on earth was offered this pass, but evidence appears to point to the contrary. Some of the Christians in this thread think I'm rejecting this pass for other reasons, but the primary one is the unfairness of the pass not being offered to everybody.

On February 18 2009 12:13 Chromyne wrote:


You use the word luck. Apart from me not believing in luck as an entity in itself, I don't think God plays around with 'luck.'

There is an assumption about people who live in regions that have never heard of Christ: they are in search of a truth, God, something beyond themselves to deliver them. Some call this knowing God through general revelation, regardless of missionaries, the gospel, or divine intervention.

However, because this usually isn't the case, and so Christians are called to share the gospel, so that everyone might hear it. And again, if you believe in an omnipotent God, why not believe in one who can communicate with peoples in remote regions regardless of the efforts of mankind?

On February 18 2009 12:34 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:

Because picking a particular god would be a big deus ex machina. You're illustrating the inconsistencies among different interpretatiions of god again. Plus, if everybody in the east and in Africa who werent exposed to Christianity had personal connections through Gods through dreams and relevations, wouldn't there be some sort of record? Like, "hey, i had this crazy dream, but i think it's some greater truth" "HOLY CRAP I HAD A SIMILAR DREAM" "ME TOO LETS WRITE ABOUT IT." seriously, the chinese were extremely good at recording stuff, they had so much astronomical data that was still useful when the west found it.

And if luck isn't the factor in where you are born, what is? Did all of Asia screw up somehow, leaving Asians to be screwed in terms of absolution until 1000 years after Christ?

On February 18 2009 13:04 Chromyne wrote:


Who is to say there haven't been recordings? They are definitely in the Bible (which itself only concentrates on very specific events) i.e. with Paul/Saul.

When talking about luck, I am saying that that term that is loosely thrown around to represent circumstance and how they transpire are beneath a god who is omnipotent and omniscient. The finite cannot comprehend the infinite (although hand waving, still a fact).

And we come full circle. I can only present so much information, and I don't think it will ever be sufficient to fully appease your issue. One thing though: I wouldn't pass the cure just because I believe others aren't getting it. It may seem noble, but you not taking it won't change the fact that they may not get it. Of course with the introduction of evangelism, your taking it increases the chances of them receiving it.

On February 18 2009 13:16 travis wrote:
did jesus ever say that people went to hell for eternity, or did he just say that hell existed eternally ?


p.s: why isn't the bible centered around the teachings of jesus if jesus was god ?

On February 18 2009 13:04 Chromyne wrote:

When talking about luck, I am saying that that term that is loosely thrown around to represent circumstance and how they transpire are beneath a god who is omnipotent and omniscient. The finite cannot comprehend the infinite (although hand waving, still a fact).

On February 18 2009 13:23 IdrA wrote:

something cant be both omniscient and omnipotent. if he is omniscient he knows what the future will be and he cannot change it, so he is not omnipotent. if he is omnipotent he could make any change he chooses to the future, and so he cannot see what will be. and he cannot see whatever he will choose to do, because then he would be unable to make a different choice, still precluding omnipotence.

On February 18 2009 09:56 HooHa! wrote:


I testify that I know that he speaks the truth.
Contact the LDS missionaries in your area, let them teach you a discussion. Listen to them, I know they are there in your area.

People can give rational convincing arguments, which can be full of intelligent things, and many doctrines and tell you everything there is to know about why they are false or why they are bad, or good. But that doesn't really let you know if YOU know.

But the only way you can KNOW for yourself is that if you pray sincerely to Heavenly Father to receive confirmation of the truth by the power of the Holy Spirit. I testify the spirit will swell your soul with a peace that is so sweet. At least to me it was that way, almost like a fire inside.

On February 18 2009 13:17 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:

the new testament completely is

On February 18 2009 13:27 Chromyne wrote:
According to the Christian faith, the fact that anyone is saved is unfair. God gave mankind a rule, they broke it knowing the consequences, and God still provides a way out. That's unfair. No one should be saved.

On February 18 2009 13:31 travis wrote:


well, I never studied the bible much, as is probably evident from the last question I asked... but...

how did the teachings of such a simple man end up to be hundreds of pages and written by.. how many different authors? I guess it makes sense in a way, it's just that. does no one see how backwards that is?

just from personal experience of studying buddhism, i'd rather a one page lesson from buddha than an encyclopedia written by his disciples.

On February 18 2009 13:34 IdrA wrote:

mankind did not break a rule
two people thousands of years ago broke a rule.
why should we be held responsible for it?

moreover, god has chosen to give us a way out, one way or another. that makes the 'original sin' irrelevant. what is unfair is that he only offers the way out to some people, and there is no apparent reason as to why some people are not given the option while some are.

On February 18 2009 14:45 Jerebread wrote:


Hi Idra, your question is, why should you be held responsible for breaking a rule that you think you did not break?

Well, I would beg to differ. The rule in question is the one of sin. I am sure that by God's standards, we all have sinned.

Just to be clear, sin: Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

As for the unfairness, in Romans 1:20, Paul (an apostle) states that God has plainly revealed His existance through His creation, so that all people are without excuse for not believing in Him.

Sometimes, you just look at the natural wonders on Earth, don't you ask yourself, how did this come to be? Or how about the fine-tuning of universal constants that make matter and life possible and which are argued not to be solely attributable to chance. These include the values of over 20 fundamental physical constants, the relative strength of nuclear forces, electromagnetism, and gravity between fundamental particles, as well as the ratios of masses of such particles. How about the composition of our atmosphere, or the distance/size of the sun?

God also reveals himself through the conscience of a person. Where does the knowledge of right and wrong come from? We all have consciences,and we have all sinned against them. The conscience shows that God has given all people light of right and wrong,and that He is perfectly just in judging all people.

Now, I would like to ask you (Idra and SpiritoftheTunA and whoever else would like to weigh in on the topic), is your reason for not taking the 'pass' because of the 'unfairness' of the situation? That you cannot accept that an all powerfull, all knowing God would only choose to offer salvation to a select few?