So the casters later in the game brought up that taeja should make a Raven switch .. so i was curious to why
So here are my questions:
In TvZ at least in the highest levels, why is terran not using ravens in late-super late game ? i usually see them in that stage of the game with a lot of gas banked up .. not too cost efficient ?(although i have seen them being used meching GM's like avilo/HTO.Mario/strelok and others) or does it not work vs hive tech units as how it is expected? or are their any other reasons ?
In TvP In the highest levels. Why don't terrans use it ? is it because ghost are more rewarding ? or you lack gas in that stages of the game ? high templars are too good against it ? seeker missiles dont deal damage to toss army ? or are their any other reasons ?
In TvZ... I don't know. I offrace Terran but one of the first things I noticed TvZ is you build up a ton of gas. I started using Ravens late game as a gas dump and Seeker Missile is a great way to force terrible engagements out of a Zerg army (basically you increase the micro they have to do so they're more likely to run face first into a bunch of Widow Mines).
And yeah in TvP if you're playing Bio you really want all your gas going into Ghosts and Vikings. If you Mech (it is viable at anything below top pro level, I feel) then Ravens are very good and you should be making them. PDD is insanely good against Tempests.
In TvP your late game army is already really gas intensive, ghosts + vikings are actually expensive despite what protoss players seem to believe. In TvZ your ravens would be pretty bad against ultras I think, but against broodlords they are kind of the way to go if you wish to engage his army. The main problem with ravens is that they are expensive, require upgrades (not so much now, but still), and you have to make a lot of starports that still cost minerals when you can't necessarily spare the ressources at the highest level I guess. Only making a few on the side might be good to clear creep, but it's more things to micro when you already have quite a lot to do. Sky terran is a good late game transition, but getting there is really hard especially at korean-pro level I suppose
So the casters later in the game brought up that taeja should make a Raven switch .. so i was curious to why
So here are my questions:
In TvZ at least in the highest levels, why is terran not using ravens in late-super late game ? i usually see them in that stage of the game with a lot of gas banked up .. not too cost efficient ?(although i have seen them being used meching GM's like avilo/HTO.Mario/strelok and others) or does it not work vs hive tech units as how it is expected? or are their any other reasons ?
In TvP In the highest levels. Why don't terrans use it ? is it because ghost are more rewarding ? or you lack gas in that stages of the game ? high templars are too good against it ? seeker missiles dont deal damage to toss army ? or are their any other reasons ?
Thanks .. hope you people could elaborate it
If you tried it in TvZ I think you'd get rolled by an ultra switch. 90% of my TvZs the Z winds of doing ling bling muta, and either stays on that the whole game or transitions into ultras. If I actually had the time to build a raven fleet in a TvZ, its very likely Id be delaying victory in a game I was already winning to get the ravens.
In TvP the seeker missile isnt that great because chargelots will cause detonations on your own guys, stalkers blink back (or they take the targeted stalker and blink into you...) HTs will rape them, and EMP is a more solid AoE effect than seeker missile. PDD can be good vs stalkers, but unless P is backed up into his base, you can't use them in a fight because P will just back up away from them, if he even has units that are affected.
The first one is that it's not done in Bio usually because getting to that point is really hard. Ravens are really expensive, gas heavy and take a lot of time to build (and a lot of starports to get to a decent number). Mech has an easier time because it's much easier to be defensive and just build your army like that whereas Bio is constant aggression and constant trading. There is very little down time.
Second is that Raven Transition isn't really that good in TvP, Templar absolutely destroy Ravens with Feedback and you still need some type of army to handle things like Zealot warp ins and what not. Also super long transition time that means Protoss can have multiple armies basically.
I've always thought a raven along with a viking could be a killer in PvT if it was possible to deny observers with them and deal good damage with drops. But the investment is probably too high and the timing you hit would be most likely weaker and/or later than ideal.
Honestly a raven is worth putting in your army at some point in tvp during the mid-late game and I think it has some utility other than killing observers. PDD's from a full energy raven can soak up a lot of stalker shots for vikings
I play as a GM terran on NA I don't use them 1 because it doesn't fit my highly aggressive style in TvZ IE mobility and can get caught very easily out of position if they go for INfestors or Muta which makes them very cost inefficient because of time and Money as well as supply that could be used on more effective options.....
TvP pretty much same thing though I Have never tried it just because of the Gas sink it takes to produce vikings/ ghosts that you really can't push out ravens especially when they are easily stopped by HT and can herp-a-derp into the enemy army and when you play higher level TvP you can get sniped when they spread HT all over the map so Just makes them really not worth it imo.....
I honestly think it's because either a lot of the Korean players don't know about it, or they are too afraid to start using them in pro games, or they are underestimating how good they are.
You have to remember Korean players for the most part seem to carbon copy each other's builds and strategies until someone comes along and shows them differently or proves something else to be effective that it's worth copying. At least that's how it seems to me, it's always been like that even in brood war.
Too many Korean T right now stick purely on bio + mine even into lategame which will almost autolose if Zerg gets to ultras + infestors and starts to tech switch to broodlord/infestor as well.
But for the most part, bio is stronger than mech right now, that's why you do not see ravens as much. Ravens can be really good with bio too, but they are not as necessary if you're constantly pressuring and trading units.
I think you're correct that they're underused. Some games the muta counts get pretty low as zergs transition into ultras, and throwing down a few turrets and a PDD would be enough to scare them away from your ravens...
And if you have a bunch of gas banked, why not do it... Or maybe just screw ravens and go banshee, in case of ultralisk. I think it's worth having some starports with techlabs on them late game. It all depends on the mutalisk count, i think.
Thats kind of the problem though how effective are Ravens vses ultras? Not very not for the cost and time it takes for the energy to get high enough to do some serious damage.... How effective are Ravens vses muta? Lower leagues where people don't micro muta if they got a HSM following them I can see that working I just don't htink they are worth the time and $ to invest in. Especially with Muta Speed buff and how fast lings are and with the muta semi high rate of fire with having so much muta PDD doesn't really do much. The only thing i could see is a Turret which for 100-200 a raven and 2 supply per raven i think a combo of marine and Mine do better Just my opinion though seems avilo knows the mastery of ravens and should teach a class to me about them
Ravens just aren't that good in TvP. Ghosts are more important and gas intensive, starports should have reactors for vikings, and it's pretty easy to feedback a raven.
In TvZ:
1. Terran has to build more starports. That means less MMMM. 2. Terran has to build techlabs. That means less vikings. 3. Terran has to research more upgrades. That means less everything. 4. Terran has to be facing a broodlord based comp with no possibility of an ultra switch.
Against heavy broodlords etc, ravens are the way to go. But most Zerg comps now go into ultras first and then broodlords, and Terrans are spending to deal with ultras and can't handle the risk of a switch back. Having one raven can be a great idea for creep denial, and PDDs help stop corruptor fire, and a seeker can make a Zerg panic and miscontrol/actually do good damage. But ravens are useless against ultras, so that's why you don't see them at the moment.
Remember in WoL when ultras were practically unseen in TvZ? Ravens were used a lot to deal with broodlord deathballs. That's why they were buffed, anyway.
I'm pretty sure Ravens are the next step in future TvZ.
As for TvP. Ghosts, Vikings, and Medics use up alot of gas. And even if Terran had extra gas, Raven's simply get countered to hard by HT's to be of any use.
I think that if you could Reactor them out of a starport, it would be pretty standard to add one or two at some point.
As it is now, even making a raven doesnt fit into the concept of TvP and TvZ, you are trying to go for micro intense - fast unit styles that can trade and reproduce quickly - not some 200 supply death army.
Its hard enough as it is to EMP, Micro vikings, Stutterstep and possibly even drop and macro at the same time. Even the best of the Progamers have a margin of improvement here. You certainly dont want and need to add more complications in form of techlab switch, PDD and hunter seeker to that - as I feel it will net you more losses than wins - especially since all that APM can just be made useless with one feedback in a moment of carelessnes.
I think (and keep in mind, I'm at best a Gold terran even though I watch a hell of a lot of tournaments - I'm silver anything else) part of the reason is that Ravens can't be used alone. In TvZ - Can ravens take out ultras? Rarely - they can mess up pathing with turrets and use HSM to splash, but they need to have backup under them. The easiest way to do that is mech, which I've started using more frequently thanks to watching Dzherzhinsky. Mech is slow - there's less aggression and more of a slow push while using extreme cost efficiency while defending. But it allows an easier transition towards sky terran with cattlebruiser meatshields and vikings keeping ravens alive. But most players are going bio - so there's no easy transition over and bio is a much more mobile, aggressive style, and less of a gradual expansion with heavy defense until you can choke out your opponent.
In TvP, Ravens (and also Cattlebruisers) can be easily pwned by high templar if you get out of position. You can't really push (see above about mech) hard and fast. I see people that try complain about ravens because they get ahead of the army and run into blink stalkers/HT/archons - and they really can't do that. It has to be a slower, more deliberate push. It also doesn't synergize at all with ghosts, which have better utility in TvP, and can cut down your Viking production. Collosus heavy compositions need Vikings, and needs something underneath them as defense. There's an old "SkyTerran" build that worked great against protoss - but which only works when the Protoss doesn't realize what's happening and kills you before you've built up a strong fleet.
Ravens are strong but aren't necessary in tvz (excepting that taeja vs jaedong game he could of used them there). They are a stylistic choice, and there can be reasons why you lose with bio mine that can be fixed by doing things better, not through a composition problem.
In tvp they're arse because they don't do anything to a deathball and are vulnerable to feedbacks. Plus they cost tons of gas and you rarely get in a situation where a raven transition would be comfortable and strong.
The first one is that it's not done in Bio usually because getting to that point is really hard. Ravens are really expensive, gas heavy and take a lot of time to build
the expense and the gas cost is not a factor. when goswser was trolling gretorp by saying he should have 8-12 ravens patrolling to defend mutalisks, taeja had a 3.5k gas bank. 17-18 ravens more like it.
On October 16 2013 07:13 Doc Brawler wrote: PDD might protect mines from getting one shotted from a muta-overseer cloud...
Muta cloud will simply find another target to engage. It's good if you're pushing the Zerg into their base and they're forced to engage in PDD range.
Overseer speedbuff has made mutas very mobile while being safe in TvZ. Before, they risked getting sniped by widowmines.
/edit
Ravens are good on ladder where most players don't expect it. Good luck using it in a match against pro Koreans.
Ps. Avilo I'm a fan but I disagree on Ravens. You speak of Korean Terrans just copying builds but at the same time, top foreign Terrans are not utilizing ravens either.
EPT
