So the casters later in the game brought up that taeja should make a Raven switch .. so i was curious to why
So here are my questions:
In TvZ at least in the highest levels, why is terran not using ravens in late-super late game ? i usually see them in that stage of the game with a lot of gas banked up .. not too cost efficient ?(although i have seen them being used meching GM's like avilo/HTO.Mario/strelok and others) or does it not work vs hive tech units as how it is expected? or are their any other reasons ?
In TvP In the highest levels. Why don't terrans use it ? is it because ghost are more rewarding ? or you lack gas in that stages of the game ? high templars are too good against it ? seeker missiles dont deal damage to toss army ? or are their any other reasons ?
In TvZ... I don't know. I offrace Terran but one of the first things I noticed TvZ is you build up a ton of gas. I started using Ravens late game as a gas dump and Seeker Missile is a great way to force terrible engagements out of a Zerg army (basically you increase the micro they have to do so they're more likely to run face first into a bunch of Widow Mines).
And yeah in TvP if you're playing Bio you really want all your gas going into Ghosts and Vikings. If you Mech (it is viable at anything below top pro level, I feel) then Ravens are very good and you should be making them. PDD is insanely good against Tempests.
In TvP your late game army is already really gas intensive, ghosts + vikings are actually expensive despite what protoss players seem to believe. In TvZ your ravens would be pretty bad against ultras I think, but against broodlords they are kind of the way to go if you wish to engage his army. The main problem with ravens is that they are expensive, require upgrades (not so much now, but still), and you have to make a lot of starports that still cost minerals when you can't necessarily spare the ressources at the highest level I guess. Only making a few on the side might be good to clear creep, but it's more things to micro when you already have quite a lot to do. Sky terran is a good late game transition, but getting there is really hard especially at korean-pro level I suppose
So the casters later in the game brought up that taeja should make a Raven switch .. so i was curious to why
So here are my questions:
In TvZ at least in the highest levels, why is terran not using ravens in late-super late game ? i usually see them in that stage of the game with a lot of gas banked up .. not too cost efficient ?(although i have seen them being used meching GM's like avilo/HTO.Mario/strelok and others) or does it not work vs hive tech units as how it is expected? or are their any other reasons ?
In TvP In the highest levels. Why don't terrans use it ? is it because ghost are more rewarding ? or you lack gas in that stages of the game ? high templars are too good against it ? seeker missiles dont deal damage to toss army ? or are their any other reasons ?
Thanks .. hope you people could elaborate it
If you tried it in TvZ I think you'd get rolled by an ultra switch. 90% of my TvZs the Z winds of doing ling bling muta, and either stays on that the whole game or transitions into ultras. If I actually had the time to build a raven fleet in a TvZ, its very likely Id be delaying victory in a game I was already winning to get the ravens.
In TvP the seeker missile isnt that great because chargelots will cause detonations on your own guys, stalkers blink back (or they take the targeted stalker and blink into you...) HTs will rape them, and EMP is a more solid AoE effect than seeker missile. PDD can be good vs stalkers, but unless P is backed up into his base, you can't use them in a fight because P will just back up away from them, if he even has units that are affected.
The first one is that it's not done in Bio usually because getting to that point is really hard. Ravens are really expensive, gas heavy and take a lot of time to build (and a lot of starports to get to a decent number). Mech has an easier time because it's much easier to be defensive and just build your army like that whereas Bio is constant aggression and constant trading. There is very little down time.
Second is that Raven Transition isn't really that good in TvP, Templar absolutely destroy Ravens with Feedback and you still need some type of army to handle things like Zealot warp ins and what not. Also super long transition time that means Protoss can have multiple armies basically.
I've always thought a raven along with a viking could be a killer in PvT if it was possible to deny observers with them and deal good damage with drops. But the investment is probably too high and the timing you hit would be most likely weaker and/or later than ideal.
Honestly a raven is worth putting in your army at some point in tvp during the mid-late game and I think it has some utility other than killing observers. PDD's from a full energy raven can soak up a lot of stalker shots for vikings
I play as a GM terran on NA I don't use them 1 because it doesn't fit my highly aggressive style in TvZ IE mobility and can get caught very easily out of position if they go for INfestors or Muta which makes them very cost inefficient because of time and Money as well as supply that could be used on more effective options.....
TvP pretty much same thing though I Have never tried it just because of the Gas sink it takes to produce vikings/ ghosts that you really can't push out ravens especially when they are easily stopped by HT and can herp-a-derp into the enemy army and when you play higher level TvP you can get sniped when they spread HT all over the map so Just makes them really not worth it imo.....
I honestly think it's because either a lot of the Korean players don't know about it, or they are too afraid to start using them in pro games, or they are underestimating how good they are.
You have to remember Korean players for the most part seem to carbon copy each other's builds and strategies until someone comes along and shows them differently or proves something else to be effective that it's worth copying. At least that's how it seems to me, it's always been like that even in brood war.
Too many Korean T right now stick purely on bio + mine even into lategame which will almost autolose if Zerg gets to ultras + infestors and starts to tech switch to broodlord/infestor as well.
But for the most part, bio is stronger than mech right now, that's why you do not see ravens as much. Ravens can be really good with bio too, but they are not as necessary if you're constantly pressuring and trading units.
I think you're correct that they're underused. Some games the muta counts get pretty low as zergs transition into ultras, and throwing down a few turrets and a PDD would be enough to scare them away from your ravens...
And if you have a bunch of gas banked, why not do it... Or maybe just screw ravens and go banshee, in case of ultralisk. I think it's worth having some starports with techlabs on them late game. It all depends on the mutalisk count, i think.
Thats kind of the problem though how effective are Ravens vses ultras? Not very not for the cost and time it takes for the energy to get high enough to do some serious damage.... How effective are Ravens vses muta? Lower leagues where people don't micro muta if they got a HSM following them I can see that working I just don't htink they are worth the time and $ to invest in. Especially with Muta Speed buff and how fast lings are and with the muta semi high rate of fire with having so much muta PDD doesn't really do much. The only thing i could see is a Turret which for 100-200 a raven and 2 supply per raven i think a combo of marine and Mine do better Just my opinion though seems avilo knows the mastery of ravens and should teach a class to me about them
Ravens just aren't that good in TvP. Ghosts are more important and gas intensive, starports should have reactors for vikings, and it's pretty easy to feedback a raven.
In TvZ:
1. Terran has to build more starports. That means less MMMM. 2. Terran has to build techlabs. That means less vikings. 3. Terran has to research more upgrades. That means less everything. 4. Terran has to be facing a broodlord based comp with no possibility of an ultra switch.
Against heavy broodlords etc, ravens are the way to go. But most Zerg comps now go into ultras first and then broodlords, and Terrans are spending to deal with ultras and can't handle the risk of a switch back. Having one raven can be a great idea for creep denial, and PDDs help stop corruptor fire, and a seeker can make a Zerg panic and miscontrol/actually do good damage. But ravens are useless against ultras, so that's why you don't see them at the moment.
Remember in WoL when ultras were practically unseen in TvZ? Ravens were used a lot to deal with broodlord deathballs. That's why they were buffed, anyway.
I'm pretty sure Ravens are the next step in future TvZ.
As for TvP. Ghosts, Vikings, and Medics use up alot of gas. And even if Terran had extra gas, Raven's simply get countered to hard by HT's to be of any use.
I think that if you could Reactor them out of a starport, it would be pretty standard to add one or two at some point.
As it is now, even making a raven doesnt fit into the concept of TvP and TvZ, you are trying to go for micro intense - fast unit styles that can trade and reproduce quickly - not some 200 supply death army.
Its hard enough as it is to EMP, Micro vikings, Stutterstep and possibly even drop and macro at the same time. Even the best of the Progamers have a margin of improvement here. You certainly dont want and need to add more complications in form of techlab switch, PDD and hunter seeker to that - as I feel it will net you more losses than wins - especially since all that APM can just be made useless with one feedback in a moment of carelessnes.
I think (and keep in mind, I'm at best a Gold terran even though I watch a hell of a lot of tournaments - I'm silver anything else) part of the reason is that Ravens can't be used alone. In TvZ - Can ravens take out ultras? Rarely - they can mess up pathing with turrets and use HSM to splash, but they need to have backup under them. The easiest way to do that is mech, which I've started using more frequently thanks to watching Dzherzhinsky. Mech is slow - there's less aggression and more of a slow push while using extreme cost efficiency while defending. But it allows an easier transition towards sky terran with cattlebruiser meatshields and vikings keeping ravens alive. But most players are going bio - so there's no easy transition over and bio is a much more mobile, aggressive style, and less of a gradual expansion with heavy defense until you can choke out your opponent.
In TvP, Ravens (and also Cattlebruisers) can be easily pwned by high templar if you get out of position. You can't really push (see above about mech) hard and fast. I see people that try complain about ravens because they get ahead of the army and run into blink stalkers/HT/archons - and they really can't do that. It has to be a slower, more deliberate push. It also doesn't synergize at all with ghosts, which have better utility in TvP, and can cut down your Viking production. Collosus heavy compositions need Vikings, and needs something underneath them as defense. There's an old "SkyTerran" build that worked great against protoss - but which only works when the Protoss doesn't realize what's happening and kills you before you've built up a strong fleet.
Ravens are strong but aren't necessary in tvz (excepting that taeja vs jaedong game he could of used them there). They are a stylistic choice, and there can be reasons why you lose with bio mine that can be fixed by doing things better, not through a composition problem.
In tvp they're arse because they don't do anything to a deathball and are vulnerable to feedbacks. Plus they cost tons of gas and you rarely get in a situation where a raven transition would be comfortable and strong.
The first one is that it's not done in Bio usually because getting to that point is really hard. Ravens are really expensive, gas heavy and take a lot of time to build
the expense and the gas cost is not a factor. when goswser was trolling gretorp by saying he should have 8-12 ravens patrolling to defend mutalisks, taeja had a 3.5k gas bank. 17-18 ravens more like it.
On October 16 2013 07:13 Doc Brawler wrote: PDD might protect mines from getting one shotted from a muta-overseer cloud...
Muta cloud will simply find another target to engage. It's good if you're pushing the Zerg into their base and they're forced to engage in PDD range.
Overseer speedbuff has made mutas very mobile while being safe in TvZ. Before, they risked getting sniped by widowmines.
/edit
Ravens are good on ladder where most players don't expect it. Good luck using it in a match against pro Koreans.
Ps. Avilo I'm a fan but I disagree on Ravens. You speak of Korean Terrans just copying builds but at the same time, top foreign Terrans are not utilizing ravens either.
If the techlab requirement were removed you would see a lot more ravens vs Z. It would be no big deal to get a raven as your first starport unit instead of a viking, and you would use it to clear creep earlier; the money saved in scans would be a huge benefit, and you could keep the creep reasonable.
Against P you could also make an early raven to snipe observers, protect from dts, escort dropships...with no tl i would always work in a raven.
Ravens are, on paper, the best unit in the game. Its really great in lowunit situations, it has great midgame utility as well, the big issue is that the benefits you get arent enough to offset the stuff you have to sacrifice. But no tl requirement would do a lot towards making them viable.
hmm I use Ravens constantly. But the unit needs alot of control, as it loves to fly into the opponents army and the Seeker Missile needs control to make it work properly. And especially Koreans focus on macro and try to get as few unit types out as possible and at best only the a-move type and since they win the most stuff, people copy them. We need some micro stars like MC for Terran.
I think in TvT Koeans show pretty well they don't value this unit highly and have no idea what to do with it as soon as you see them throwing a double seeker on a tank.
Its almost always worth it to add a second starport with a techlab at one point and going raven first on your initial starport.
Against Zerg Ravens tend to be a bit useless, because they simply out transfuse your damage and if you don't use the Seeker right most of their units can simply outrun it. I prefer autoturrets against Zerg actually as mobile walls.
Against Toss I like the Seeker, but the usage is complicated. I prefer to use it as a ground spell, by either targeting my own units and picking them up, or sniping the Unit I targeted asap. But I do dislike to give your opponent a bomb for 5 seconds heavily, so I am a bit biased. But I think it is unfair to use against Protoss, you stack a few on one of your units and send it in and all those Zealots will charge into their doom.
in a constant trading game like bio mine ling baneling muta, your raven will just be wasted. It might be used in TvZ bio tank though. raven just doesn't seem to have many purposes in a TvP fight.
Im occaisonaly transinitioning into ravens mate game TvZ. With mixed results usually im so far ahead its almost like a gtfo move but it has saved my ass on occasions. Never used in TvP except in wol for a really old school bio raven allin of one base that Polt invented. Ive been thinking of mixing 1 in all my mu (in tvt I always have a raven) but it could be useful for cleep clearance and observer sniping with a viking. I think the Fxo terrans lile GuMiho experimented with this ang sC before he retired. The vods should be GSTL this season.
On October 16 2013 13:33 GumBa wrote: Im occaisonaly transinitioning into ravens mate game TvZ. With mixed results usually im so far ahead its almost like a gtfo move but it has saved my ass on occasions. Never used in TvP except in wol for a really old school bio raven allin of one base that Polt invented. Ive been thinking of mixing 1 in all my mu (in tvt I always have a raven) but it could be useful for cleep clearance and observer sniping with a viking. I think the Fxo terrans lile GuMiho experimented with this ang sC before he retired. The vods should be GSTL this season.
That WoL allin of polts was sweet, it was a really fun build to do. I wish I could do earlier raven vs toss but itd delay the medivacs too much. Against P you could generally get away with a raven and viking escorting a drop, templar arent an issue over dead space and such, its just the starport is so booked makiing medivacs and vikings...the only way to squeeze it in would be if you could reactor it, and go 2x medi 1x medi 1x raven 2x viking with the first three production cycles. Thatd give you escort ability for your first push, some extra raven energy, itd be nice.
I feel like you need a lot of them to be useful :/ I use them a bit super late-game TvZ against broodlords if it gets to that stage, might be useful earlier on in a game just to clear out creep, but that's a lot of gas that could be in upgrades already and delayed medivac production Theory-crafting wise they make sense in TvP (PDD is sick vs stalkers, HSM vs zealots) but again it seems like you need a lot of them to make it worthwhile
In TvP In the highest levels. Why don't terrans use it ? you lack gas in that stages of the game ?
You never ever lack gas in TvP. I think ravens are not used because of their poor armor(light unit for 200 gas wtf), their really low movement speed and because pros have enough APM to dodge the HSM.
In my master ladder matches, the second starport has a techlab and is constantly building ravens. It really helps combating the deathball and you can snipe the templar as good as with ghosts because they are so slow. HSM on colossi is also almost always a guaranteed hit.
On October 16 2013 14:36 Whatson wrote: I feel like you need a lot of them to be useful :/ I use them a bit super late-game TvZ against broodlords if it gets to that stage, might be useful earlier on in a game just to clear out creep, but that's a lot of gas that could be in upgrades already and delayed medivac production Theory-crafting wise they make sense in TvP (PDD is sick vs stalkers, HSM vs zealots) but again it seems like you need a lot of them to make it worthwhile
this, i feel like you need a lot of them to make a difference. don't want to mention broodwar but i just have to mention it. the first sci vessels, defiler and ht that came out completely changes the pace of the game and the more you got the more powerful your army became.
as mentioned above, they might be useful but it takes too much to tech and get 1 out early when you could spend it on other more useful tech. late game you need to make a bunch before they can change the flow of the game.
Ravens are very good if you go mech TvZ it allow you to deal with swarmhost pretty well. If you look at HTOmario style tank/mine he shows how and when going raven. Basically you go raven as soon as you see a swarmhost tech. when you have more than 8 raven its just a nightmare for the Z.
Since I used Mario TvZ mech I have a 100 % winratio vs zerg and i use a lot ravens in the endgame.
On October 16 2013 19:17 klup wrote: Ravens are very good if you go mech TvZ it allow you to deal with swarmhost pretty well. If you look at HTOmario style tank/mine he shows how and when going raven. Basically you go raven as soon as you see a swarmhost tech. when you have more than 8 raven its just a nightmare for the Z.
Since I used Mario TvZ mech I have a 100 % winratio vs zerg and i use a lot ravens in the endgame.
On October 16 2013 04:15 avilo wrote: I honestly think it's because either a lot of the Korean players don't know about it, or they are too afraid to start using them in pro games, or they are underestimating how good they are.
You have to remember Korean players for the most part seem to carbon copy each other's builds and strategies until someone comes along and shows them differently or proves something else to be effective that it's worth copying. At least that's how it seems to me, it's always been like that even in brood war.
Too many Korean T right now stick purely on bio + mine even into lategame which will almost autolose if Zerg gets to ultras + infestors and starts to tech switch to broodlord/infestor as well.
But for the most part, bio is stronger than mech right now, that's why you do not see ravens as much. Ravens can be really good with bio too, but they are not as necessary if you're constantly pressuring and trading units.
Possible but, especialy with the recent KeSPA switch, very unlikely in my opinion. There are so many players in so many Teamhouses that they certainly tried everything and anything, no?
Ravens are just hard to get out in tvz/p when you go bio due to not having the supporting infrastructure. I see them all the time in mass when watching mech though. Ravens complement mech so well compared to bio.
TvP, I dont think ravens are that good because high templar can feedback the PDDs and the ravens and the protoss can just retreat out of the bad engagements, not to mention the overqualification conflict: with that much gas, can't you just make ghosts and vikings. I guess maybe when youre maxed you can throw a few in but I dont think theyll do anything vs a good toss. Vs zerg I feel like raven in a bio force ravens are not very good just because they dont provide anything vs what comp zerg gets vs bio and they'll just be a wasted investment. with mech however, Its a lot more difficult to stop because suddenly the zerg comps changes, and ravens are good vs that composition. Ive seen qute a few times on streams a mech composition demolish a zerg comp because of ravens, most notably SiegeTank Raven Viking with a few support units. One big reason zerg has such difficult stopping this is because they have no counter-mage units (ghost EMP, Hightemplar Feedback) so they cant even deny the PDDs, which are what really make the composition powerful.
EDIT: HTOMario uses a Raven transition somewhere in this daily. I only saw the last part, so im not sure if there is mention or use of it in part 1 or 2
In a nutshell, Ravens are great late/end game vs zerg ONLY when you have a solid mech army allready. Theyre great support units.
Ravens are slow, take a long time to build and get enough energy . You dont wanna have them against ling bane mass muta because the zerg is going to keep you on low bases and will never let you move out. Also they are not so good against Ultras. I think the only time you shold use them is against broodlords. If you try to fight a moblie army then the zerg is just gonna force the seeker missiles and run away from them.
In the current state of TvZ it's a continuesly fight between the muta ling bane vs 4M. There is no need or room ot make a raven transition if the terran keeps fighting with the zerg, who will get ultras and infestors as the final addition to the army.
On October 17 2013 01:28 TrOn_sc2 wrote: Ravens are slow, take a long time to build and get enough energy . You dont wanna have them against ling bane mass muta because the zerg is going to keep you on low bases and will never let you move out. Also they are not so good against Ultras. I think the only time you shold use them is against broodlords. If you try to fight a moblie army then the zerg is just gonna force the seeker missiles and run away from them.
In the current state of TvZ it's a continuesly fight between the muta ling bane vs 4M. There is no need or room ot make a raven transition if the terran keeps fighting with the zerg, who will get ultras and infestors as the final addition to the army.
one important thing to note is that ravens are too slow compared to bio units that's why the synergy is not so good. in BW science vessels were moving at the same speed of unstimmed marines that's one of the reasons why SKTERRAN worked well.
Regarding the argument about ravens vs ultras, I think terrans can afford to get 4-6 banshees out and skip a couple of ravens. Banshees' extreme DPS, combined with good wall offs, maybe even auto turrets, should be able to hold off ultras long enough until you have enough banshees/ravens/BCs to be aggressive and force the zerg to transition into something else. Terrans just have to make sure to not get caught off guard by an ultra switch and build banshees in time.
On October 17 2013 03:28 uh-oh wrote: Regarding the argument about ravens vs ultras, I think terrans can afford to get 4-6 banshees out and skip a couple of ravens. Banshees' extreme DPS, combined with good wall offs, maybe even auto turrets, should be able to hold off ultras long enough until you have enough banshees/ravens/BCs to be aggressive and force the zerg to transition into something else. Terrans just have to make sure to not get caught off guard by an ultra switch and build banshees in time.
Extreme dps versus Ultralisks with chitenous plates while Banshees have 0 weapons upgrades? Not likely. To make 6 banshees as a reaction to an Ultralisk switch would also require more starports. 1 Starport with techlab won't suffice. Adding more starports requires resources that are needed to hold the Zerg at bay.
Ravens are just not that great of a unit. Most times lategame zerg or protoss doesn't have much ranged units if you play the standard bio stuff so PDD doesn't actually do anything and autoturrets just suck, hard to place and their damage get's mitigated by armor upgrades too much. Seeker missile however also just sucks against protoss.
Basically their value lies in being a gas dump but good play should just avoid that by not going over 4 gas anytime soon. Besides the ghost is a better (albeit less gas heavy) gas dump in TvP. TvZ there can be some real value in the gas dump and seeker missile isn't as bad but it still kinda sucks given how late it hits, it just overkills way too often or hits your own stuff as much as theirs. If they have broodlords/corruptors then ravens rock because both PDD and seeker missile are great against that but zerg doesn't often go for it. Simply put it's often better to just avoid the gas stockpile in the first place than use ravens to mitigate it. In TvZ if you do happen to have the gas then some ravens are fine even though you probably need an extra starport to make them. They are quite serviceable against infestors, corruptors and broodlords which often show up at that time. It's only a lategame thing though as gas stockpiles shouldn't happen while you're still upgrading and corruptors/broodlords aren't a thing if terran plays properly aggressive.
Ravens synergize much better with mech styles actually as a unit but their cost just doesn't. If you mech you have hardly anything to spend on them. Perhaps when the patch get's released and banshees + mech become a thing we'll see more ravens too.
Ravens could use some slight reworking. Seeker missile would be cooler as a high single target damage with minimal aoe making ravens better in a science vessel way where you can snipe ultra's/broods/colossi/archon with them but it would be really hard to mass them up. Turrets could also use a small buff, for example being able to place them on top of units like forcefield or let their damage increase with bio upgrades. I'd like a small speed buff or range increase as well so they could actually play around HT's, they just force them out of the game as it stands.
Ravens are just not that great of a unit. Most times lategame zerg or protoss doesn't have much ranged units if you play the standard bio stuff so PDD doesn't actually do anything and autoturrets just suck, hard to place and their damage get's mitigated by armor upgrades too much. Seeker missile however also just sucks against protoss.
Basically their value lies in being a gas dump but good play should just avoid that by not going over 4 gas anytime soon. Besides the ghost is a better (albeit less gas heavy) gas dump in TvP. TvZ there can be some real value in the gas dump and seeker missile isn't as bad but it still kinda sucks given how late it hits, it just overkills way too often or hits your own stuff as much as theirs. If they have broodlords/corruptors then ravens rock because both PDD and seeker missile are great against that but zerg doesn't often go for it. Simply put it's often better to just avoid the gas stockpile in the first place than use ravens to mitigate it. In TvZ if you do happen to have the gas then some ravens are fine even though you probably need an extra starport to make them. They are quite serviceable against infestors, corruptors and broodlords which often show up at that time. It's only a lategame thing though as gas stockpiles shouldn't happen while you're still upgrading and corruptors/broodlords aren't a thing if terran plays properly aggressive.
Ravens synergize much better with mech styles actually as a unit but their cost just doesn't. If you mech you have hardly anything to spend on them. Perhaps when the patch get's released and banshees + mech become a thing we'll see more ravens too.
Ravens could use some slight reworking. Seeker missile would be cooler as a high single target damage with minimal aoe making ravens better in a science vessel way where you can snipe ultra's/broods/colossi/archon with them but it would be really hard to mass them up. Turrets could also use a small buff, for example being able to place them on top of units like forcefield or let their damage increase with bio upgrades. I'd like a small speed buff or range increase as well so they could actually play around HT's, they just force them out of the game as it stands.
IMO a big reason that no one talks about is the micro required for ravens. Every unit terran has is so micro intensive already that adding another unit(s) that requires micro is so daunting.
I know I know, for those of us with 300+ apm and mutli tasking and micro of a god, microing units is trivial. But for the rest of the mere mortals, yeah.
On October 16 2013 04:15 avilo wrote: I honestly think it's because either a lot of the Korean players don't know about it, or they are too afraid to start using them in pro games, or they are underestimating how good they are.
You have to remember Korean players for the most part seem to carbon copy each other's builds and strategies until someone comes along and shows them differently or proves something else to be effective that it's worth copying. At least that's how it seems to me, it's always been like that even in brood war. Too many Korean T right now stick purely on bio + mine even into lategame which will almost autolose if Zerg gets to ultras + infestors and starts to tech switch to broodlord/infestor as well.
But for the most part, bio is stronger than mech right now, that's why you do not see ravens as much. Ravens can be really good with bio too, but they are not as necessary if you're constantly pressuring and trading units.
All of what you said was incorrect until broodlord/infestor. In a straight up engagement bio/mine gets crushed by ultra/ling/bane/infestor/broodlord that is correct. Ultra/infestor though does not crush bio/mine unless the terran is nice or messes up and lets his whole army get fungaled. It all goes by how you engage ultra/infestor vs bio/mine.
Furthermore going broodlords is almost never worth it except on specific maps because of how immobile it is. Every time I see a zerg go bl's vs terran if the terrans smart he just goes for a base trade (hint this favors terran a lot, especially versus a broodlord army). Now if the terran is nice and engages the bl/ultra/infestor army then yeah he loses (unless he's got ravens).
On October 16 2013 04:15 avilo wrote: I honestly think it's because either a lot of the Korean players don't know about it, or they are too afraid to start using them in pro games, or they are underestimating how good they are.
You have to remember Korean players for the most part seem to carbon copy each other's builds and strategies until someone comes along and shows them differently or proves something else to be effective that it's worth copying. At least that's how it seems to me, it's always been like that even in brood war. Too many Korean T right now stick purely on bio + mine even into lategame which will almost autolose if Zerg gets to ultras + infestors and starts to tech switch to broodlord/infestor as well.
But for the most part, bio is stronger than mech right now, that's why you do not see ravens as much. Ravens can be really good with bio too, but they are not as necessary if you're constantly pressuring and trading units.
All of what you said was incorrect until broodlord/infestor. In a straight up engagement bio/mine gets crushed by ultra/ling/bane/infestor/broodlord that is correct. Ultra/infestor though does not crush bio/mine unless the terran is nice or messes up and lets his whole army get fungaled. It all goes by how you engage ultra/infestor vs bio/mine.
Furthermore going broodlords is almost never worth it except on specific maps because of how immobile it is. Every time I see a zerg go bl's vs terran if the terrans smart he just goes for a base trade (hint this favors terran a lot, especially versus a broodlord army). Now if the terran is nice and engages the bl/ultra/infestor army then yeah he loses (unless he's got ravens).
"All of what you said is incorrect" should i say that too to what you said -_-? It's a matter of context imo. I think it's pretty accurate to say ultra/bane/infestor demolishes pure bio mine if it gets to that point after ling/bane/muta.
And as for the brood/infestor, i don't mean going brood+infestor off the bat, but more so after you've established lots of ultra/infestor and then you add in broodlords to mess with mines and force some vikings. I'm talking more of an already max vs max game, where Zerg can make like 10-20 spores to free up some extra supply for those broods just to help out mess up Terran's unit composition.
And i think you're underestimating how a lot of Zergs play with static defense. The base trade scenario you're talking about doesn't work so well if Zerg puts spines/spores at every base at that point in the game and then just runs all their ultra/infestor back home.
If they don't put spines/spores at each base and they are just naked hatches...then yeah sure, medivacs will just fly around lol.
actually in tvp you don't lack gas, you're mainly starving for minerals ... buut ravens are really bad lategame since pdd can get fedbacked and the raven itself also can
While it can still be effective vs zerg, that is WoL. In HotS he could have run his speed roaches under the air ball when seekers are casted and take it out with their own seekers. Also why generally seekers on corrupters is a bad idea.
Raven + ghost comps are really powerfull in tvp when playing mech. Hellbat thor + a couple of tanks with ghost and raven support can wreck a toss army. Ravens counter mass void with hsm and tempests with pdd and hellbat thor + ghots for emp destroy toss ground forces and you can add tanks for extra splash and seige range.
On October 17 2013 17:35 Mahanaim wrote: It could have a little speed boost, just saying
agreed it would be awesome if was used lategame in any matchup .. it would look like how arbiters were used during BW in PvT
Or just Science Vessels. Ravens are slugs when compared in speed against Science Vessels.
Speed is definitely one thing that would improve raven usage hugely. That being said, I do feel ravens need more *guaranteed* dmg like the science vessel. Their usage tends to be either way to good or way to bad. Compare it to science vessels which got a lot more guaranteed dmg in(though admittedly scourge made sniping the vessels also a lot easier for Z). Admittedly I think buffing ravens would probably require some nerf to marines lategame, hence I'm not sure buffing is even a realistic option.
On October 17 2013 17:35 Mahanaim wrote: It could have a little speed boost, just saying
agreed it would be awesome if was used lategame in any matchup .. it would look like how arbiters were used during BW in PvT
Or just Science Vessels. Ravens are slugs when compared in speed against Science Vessels.
Speed is definitely one thing that would improve raven usage hugely. That being said, I do feel ravens need more *guaranteed* dmg like the science vessel. Their usage tends to be either way to good or way to bad. Compare it to science vessels which got a lot more guaranteed dmg in(though admittedly scourge made sniping the vessels also a lot easier for Z). Admittedly I think buffing ravens would probably require some nerf to marines lategame, hence I'm not sure buffing is even a realistic option.
why would marines need a nerf ? dont storm and colossus trash them easily .. and marines dont work well with ultras
maybe just maybe because marines, medivacs and mines are just too good. Cheap, effective, can be reactored units.
Or because ravens are too slow and exposed, they die easily compared to what P and Z can dish out. Z maybe but then why would you lift your reactored starports that produce lots of speedivacts and make techlabs for each and make slow ass ravens? need splash? go mines (reactored) need damage marines. also ravens would require another micro intensive unit that when you blink and did not care for disappears in seconds which are also too expansive.
On October 17 2013 21:26 woreyour wrote: maybe just maybe because marines, medivacs and mines are just too good. Cheap, effective, can be reactored units.
Or because ravens are too slow and exposed, they die easily compared to what P and Z can dish out. Z maybe but then why would you lift your reactored starports that produce lots of speedivacts and make techlabs for each and make slow ass ravens? need splash? go mines (reactored) need damage marines. also ravens would require another micro intensive unit that when you blink and did not care for disappears in seconds which are also too expansive.
Oh no, reactored. TWICE the production. Zergs must be all jelly.
On October 17 2013 21:26 woreyour wrote: maybe just maybe because marines, medivacs and mines are just too good. Cheap, effective, can be reactored units.
Or because ravens are too slow and exposed, they die easily compared to what P and Z can dish out. Z maybe but then why would you lift your reactored starports that produce lots of speedivacts and make techlabs for each and make slow ass ravens? need splash? go mines (reactored) need damage marines. also ravens would require another micro intensive unit that when you blink and did not care for disappears in seconds which are also too expansive.
Oh no, reactored. TWICE the production. Zergs must be all jelly.
zerg has 19 max larva, 4 per inject and toss can build X gateways at a time. well i hope its all far :D afterall, all is fair in love and war.
On October 17 2013 14:47 padfoota wrote: Bunch of you guys completely forgot Bomber's usage of ravens when it first got patched.
The fact that you people still assume korean pros dont try different strategies is rather condescending imo.
Thats how I felt that statement comes off.... a lot of top korean pros try new strategies all the time to generalize they all copy each other is very condescending when the reality is that MOST foreigners just copy Top Korean Pro players blindly seeing them as the bible for basic play and only seeing a strat viable when a Top Korean player does it LOL
1. Because after you shoot off your PDD, it gets feedbacked by HTs or the mutas fly somewhere else. 2. When you shoot your Seeker Missile, they move that one unit away (or more likely, try to and take non-substantial splash damage because one seeker missile doesn't really do that much) 3. Auto turrets are terrible.
Why would any Terran build a flimsy unit that rarely ever has a useful effect. After you cast your mana-crippling spell it's a flying paperweight.
None of it's abilities are even worth the APM to move around my add-ons.
On October 17 2013 23:48 Durp wrote: Why aren't Ravens used?
1. Because after you shoot off your PDD, it gets feedbacked by HTs or the mutas fly somewhere else. 2. When you shoot your Seeker Missile, they move that one unit away (or more likely, try to and take non-substantial splash damage because one seeker missile doesn't really do that much) 3. Auto turrets are terrible.
Why would any Terran build a flimsy unit that rarely ever has a useful effect. After you cast your mana-crippling spell it's a flying paperweight.
None of it's abilities are even worth the APM to move around my add-ons.
With point two I would more say the issue is if you really go heavy on ravens and cost a whole bunch of seekers, they simply move their entire army back, no micro required. And risk two is fast targets can also dive into your army, with the seekers following them and killing your own army.
Their damage isn't bad, as long as it is used on targets which are vulnerable to AOE damage. For example against stacked voids, or just in general a clumped ground army.
At the same time I remember a game vs a toss. I had won it, and one of the last things he had were 6 tempests, I had raven squad near there (and main army bit further), and half for fun I used all their energy on a load of seekers. Enemy gg'd immediatly, but waited to see what would happen. He was kinda surprised when not a single tempest died.
On October 17 2013 23:48 Durp wrote: Why aren't Ravens used?
1. Because after you shoot off your PDD, it gets feedbacked by HTs or the mutas fly somewhere else. 2. When you shoot your Seeker Missile, they move that one unit away (or more likely, try to and take non-substantial splash damage because one seeker missile doesn't really do that much) 3. Auto turrets are terrible.
Why would any Terran build a flimsy unit that rarely ever has a useful effect. After you cast your mana-crippling spell it's a flying paperweight.
None of it's abilities are even worth the APM to move around my add-ons.
With point two I would more say the issue is if you really go heavy on ravens and cost a whole bunch of seekers, they simply move their entire army back, no micro required. And risk two is fast targets can also dive into your army, with the seekers following them and killing your own army.
Their damage isn't bad, as long as it is used on targets which are vulnerable to AOE damage. For example against stacked voids, or just in general a clumped ground army.
At the same time I remember a game vs a toss. I had won it, and one of the last things he had were 6 tempests, I had raven squad near there (and main army bit further), and half for fun I used all their energy on a load of seekers. Enemy gg'd immediately, but waited to see what would happen. He was kinda surprised when not a single tempest died.
You can't really dive someone with a sm tagged unless its something that moves really quickly, in which case it's a bit of a waste to be sm'ing it in the first place(marine, stalker, ling, hellion etc.)
SM are good against anything stacked, but only flying units and workers can really do that and stacked !=clumped. You have too much time to react to the sm for it to really punish someone for clumping, at least to the extent banelings and fungal do to bio.
seeker missile and yamato cannon are also the only spells which deal direct and full damage. Storm is a dot - can deal anywhere from 0 - 80 damage, depending on how slow you are. Fungal isnt so much a DPS spell, its more useful for the lockdown.
Seeker missile will ALWAYS deal all the damage, or No damage - making it hard to balance. if you dont give players that chance to evade its strongly OP, if they can evade fairly easily it goes to useless once players know how.
my fix would be to launch hunter seekers faster, yet they deal reduced damage if they further they are away from the raven, down to 0 if they get too far away.
On October 16 2013 07:13 Doc Brawler wrote: PDD might protect mines from getting one shotted from a muta-overseer cloud...
Muta cloud will simply find another target to engage. It's good if you're pushing the Zerg into their base and they're forced to engage in PDD range.
Overseer speedbuff has made mutas very mobile while being safe in TvZ. Before, they risked getting sniped by widowmines.
/edit
Ravens are good on ladder where most players don't expect it. Good luck using it in a match against pro Koreans. Ps. Avilo I'm a fan but I disagree on Ravens. You speak of Korean Terrans just copying builds but at the same time, top foreign Terrans are not utilizing ravens either.
because all of them just copy what the koreans are doing haha.
The raven has a lot of utillity, the problem is that the points in the game where it would be most useful, its not really available. Id love a raven to clear creep, or to find hard to spot observers. As a drop escort you could also use its spells in support, the TL requirement is just too much. And if they insist on tl then reduce build time so the starport isnt tied up as long.
I would really like to know why they changed the missile mechanic. I remember being dumbfounded, yet virtually nobody else seemed to care. It adds more depth to the ability while making it a LOT more dangerous, and it doesn't look stupid, either.
David stated that they wanted to increase the range of Hunter-Seeker Missiles, but couldn't they have simply changed a single number in the editor from 6 to 9?
What's even more bizzare, was that Hunter-Seeker Missiles used to be Range 9 in the WoL beta (patch 11).
A longer range on it would be amazing esp in tvp as there would be less risk of feedback. from my experience, the hardest part of using ravens in tvp is making sure they dont get feedbacked all the time. I like hsm with the splash dmg as it allows players who play mech to deal with mass void rays quite easily when supported with a couple of thors and we already have yamato for high single target damage. Also it works very well against the naturally clumped deathball style protoss like to use.
I'd like to echo the idea that some people have already brought up, that the Seeker Missile is much too all or nothing in terms of damage. Terran has no real AoE damage spell, which makes life hard against swarms of zerg ground units and flocks of mutas (AoE 'damage' against P comes from EMP which doesn't translate to Z), which is why a mine nerf seems so terrible to Ts.
Perhaps the problem is that they are designing SMs with the old "Hunter-Seeker" name in mind. Instead of it being just a 'unit targeted' spell, what if there were a second option to make it a 'fly to targeted location' spell. Reduced/no charge up time, no single target damage and better AoE damage (for both).
This way there is more versatility and options, multiple targeted SMs for the situations we've seen them used in so far, and the second option to control space, force/deny engagements or do some guaranteed damage.
A longer cast range and faster raven would make SMs, and therefore, the Raven a more attractive choice.
On October 18 2013 23:23 TMStarcraft wrote: I'd like to echo the idea that some people have already brought up, that the Seeker Missile is much too all or nothing in terms of damage. Terran has no real AoE damage spell, which makes life hard against swarms of zerg ground units and flocks of mutas (AoE 'damage' against P comes from EMP which doesn't translate to Z), which is why a mine nerf seems so terrible to Ts.
Perhaps the problem is that they are designing SMs with the old "Hunter-Seeker" name in mind. Instead of it being just a 'unit targeted' spell, what if there were a second option to make it a 'fly to targeted location' spell. Reduced/no charge up time, no single target damage and better AoE damage (for both).
This way there is more versatility and options, multiple targeted SMs for the situations we've seen them used in so far, and the second option to control space, force/deny engagements or do some guaranteed damage.
A longer cast range and faster raven would make SMs, and therefore, the Raven a more attractive choice.
Terrans don't have a shortage of AoE. Tanks, thors, mines, hellions ghosts(vs shields) and the seeker missile.
On October 18 2013 23:23 TMStarcraft wrote: I'd like to echo the idea that some people have already brought up, that the Seeker Missile is much too all or nothing in terms of damage. Terran has no real AoE damage spell, which makes life hard against swarms of zerg ground units and flocks of mutas (AoE 'damage' against P comes from EMP which doesn't translate to Z), which is why a mine nerf seems so terrible to Ts.
Perhaps the problem is that they are designing SMs with the old "Hunter-Seeker" name in mind. Instead of it being just a 'unit targeted' spell, what if there were a second option to make it a 'fly to targeted location' spell. Reduced/no charge up time, no single target damage and better AoE damage (for both).
This way there is more versatility and options, multiple targeted SMs for the situations we've seen them used in so far, and the second option to control space, force/deny engagements or do some guaranteed damage.
A longer cast range and faster raven would make SMs, and therefore, the Raven a more attractive choice.
Terrans don't have a shortage of AoE. Tanks, thors, mines, hellions ghosts(vs shields) and the seeker missile.
Yes but tanks are terrible, thors are easily magic boxed, hellions are great, so are mines (possibly nerfed soon), ghosts are P only, and the seeker missile is not effective enough to warrant building the raven. A cast-able AoE damage spell usable across all match ups would possibly make it a more viable choice.
So Ts have only two real viable AoE units atm, which is why we see them all the time. I do like thors thrown in with bio mid-late TvZ though, they seem more effective.
On October 18 2013 23:23 TMStarcraft wrote: I'd like to echo the idea that some people have already brought up, that the Seeker Missile is much too all or nothing in terms of damage. Terran has no real AoE damage spell, which makes life hard against swarms of zerg ground units and flocks of mutas (AoE 'damage' against P comes from EMP which doesn't translate to Z), which is why a mine nerf seems so terrible to Ts.
Perhaps the problem is that they are designing SMs with the old "Hunter-Seeker" name in mind. Instead of it being just a 'unit targeted' spell, what if there were a second option to make it a 'fly to targeted location' spell. Reduced/no charge up time, no single target damage and better AoE damage (for both).
This way there is more versatility and options, multiple targeted SMs for the situations we've seen them used in so far, and the second option to control space, force/deny engagements or do some guaranteed damage.
A longer cast range and faster raven would make SMs, and therefore, the Raven a more attractive choice.
Terrans don't have a shortage of AoE. Tanks, thors, mines, hellions ghosts(vs shields) and the seeker missile.
Yes but tanks are terrible, thors are easily magic boxed, hellions are great, so are mines (possibly nerfed soon), ghosts are P only, and the seeker missile is not effective enough to warrant building the raven. A cast-able AoE damage spell usable across all match ups would possibly make it a more viable choice.
So Ts have only two real viable AoE units atm, which is why we see them all the time. I do like thors thrown in with bio mid-late TvZ though, they seem more effective.
I do incorporate thors in my 4M. Keeping the techlab on my factory after getting drilling claw upgrades and making thors out of them. I use a medivac to boost them around and it's hilariously fun when I catch enemy mutas off guard. My goal is to boost around enough thors to 1 shot a clump of mutas lol.
Buffing ravens seem very dangerous I think, they can very easily become the new WoL infestor. Mass ravens (+mech/bio/air) is already extremely powerful, but of course it is an extremely hard transition to make.
On October 20 2013 00:49 Slydie wrote: Buffing ravens seem very dangerous I think, they can very easily become the new WoL infestor. Mass ravens (+mech/bio/air) is already extremely powerful, but of course it is an extremely hard transition to make.
Mech + bio + air is imaginary. Just basic reality - upgrades 3 ways will take extremely long, unless playing super duper greedy and ignoring army size in favour of tech and econ; which is suicide at the top level.
'Extremely hard' must be euphemism for impossible - as it is in some cultures. Not advocating for raven buff by the way. I think Widow Mines are plenty AoE damage at the moment in TvZ, emp in TvP, seige tanks in TvT.
On October 20 2013 00:49 Slydie wrote: Buffing ravens seem very dangerous I think, they can very easily become the new WoL infestor. Mass ravens (+mech/bio/air) is already extremely powerful, but of course it is an extremely hard transition to make.
would be nice if terran had more options of splash .. like in tvz they can choose between bio-mine/bio-tank/bio-raven would be awesome .. but thats just my thoughts ..
I can never seem to make Ravens work vs an equally toss or zerg. Either they move away from the seeker or just split and let it hit the isolated unit. Some opponents will even pick up the targeted unit and drop it somewhere else in order to make the missile hit empty space.
PDD is only useful vs stalkers or vikings, i find. So they might have a place in mech tvp, but then again, HTs are so good vs ravens and can snipe the PDD too.
Auto turrets are only good for harass...
In TvT though, HSM is great because tanks are a guaranteed target, and PDD is critical in viking fights.
On October 20 2013 18:17 Zahir wrote: I can never seem to make Ravens work vs an equally toss or zerg. Either they move away from the seeker or just split and let it hit the isolated unit. Some opponents will even pick up the targeted unit and drop it somewhere else in order to make the missile hit empty space.
PDD is only useful vs stalkers or vikings, i find. So they might have a place in mech tvp, but then again, HTs are so good vs ravens and can snipe the PDD too.
Auto turrets are only good for harass...
In TvT though, HSM is great because tanks are a guaranteed target, and PDD is critical in viking fights.
responding to the title of the thread ravens are used in mass in tvz's toward lategame to deal with the broodlord/ultra switcheroo shannigens, also you can get them if z went heavy swarm hosts to turtle.
tvp its not really used because the gas usually goes into Vikings/ghosts you can't afford ravens, and even if you did Templars can feedback ravens at almost no cost, and Templars can also feedback the the pdd after its cast.
seeker takes too long vs p and it can be dodged easily, also it just doesn't do enough damage, takes 2 seekers just to kill 1 zealot
If you 1-1-1 vs protoss you could use a pdd to negate the photon overcharge. But yeah ofc that only works up to a point, probably high diamond I suppose
Im just a Diamond Terran but i agree to most of the guys here. Most of the time, Ravens are not necessary in TvZ and they are not worth it vs Toss. But at the same time i think they are great against Roach/Hydra because they give you a positional advantage and PDDs soak up many Hydra shots. And they are nice to scare away/kill, vipers too.
Imo it's just about the timing when you should put resources on an extra starport for raven that is hard to get right. However when I play on ladder and terrans go for ravens they get like 3-4 starports and go mass raven and get like a sky-terran fleet. They never trickle them in to their main bio force. Suddenly getting like 4 starports and start producing ravens only work if you play super-turtle:ish or is in a huge lead. (spending so much resources on ravens certainly eats into your main army which render you weak against counter-attacks). Getting 1 starport for raven and treat them as support seem sensible.
In tvp I am not a fan since you are already spend gas on more useful things. Depends on style though but in general.
Ravens are absolutely a go to unit vs any composition zerg can threw at mech. The only exception can be ling bling mutas ultras.
Vs SH, roach hydra , broodlord infestor they do amazingly well and are maybe a little bit overpowered in the late game. Can't wait for the patch upgrade mech+air to go transitioning raven BC it will feel very strong and we will get finally the truly scarry lategame composition !!
Vs protoss it is useless except for early game pushes where PDD can become golden.
For TvZ, there are many reasons why Ravens won't work: 1) Terran has to use bio. As a response, zerg will use very mobile melee units, which makes PDD useless and SM very counterproductive due to the splash damage that severely hurt your fragile bio units. 2) Also, Vipers can easily abduct out of position ravens. 3) You need a murder of ravens to make them very useful, but Zerg's aggressive playstyle prevents you from having that luxury. 4) SM are very easy to avoid, unless you have a broodlord based army.
Bomber once used Ravens in ZvT by utilizing the speed medivac as a SM suicide bomber, and it at best had very average results.
For TvP, ghosts are very gas intensive and need to replaced due to their relative immobility. Also, Ravens get hard countered by High Templars' feedback.
I think it would be nice of Raven and its upgrades were cheaper in gas costs.
Ravens might as well be considered a mech unit, its slow and clunky and thus doesn't have much synergy with bio armies. Large numbers of ravens combined with mech is incredibly strong in both TvT and TvZ though, so the unit is very strong in the right situation.
The reason ravens aren't used is the same as the siege tank isn't used: Blizzard has fucked up any concept of slow, meticulous play and instead all strategies revolve around zipping around the map as fast as possible right now. To make ravens popular you would have to go in the opposite direction than where David Kim is taking his game.
I am using ravens in all lategame scenarios pretty well. With bio, you always have more than enough gas to produce ravens out of 1 starport. In TvP, my first starport gets a reactor and the second a techlab. Three Vikings at a time is the perfect number to counter colossi production, i often found myself with two reactors before and then had too many vikings. Ravens can really kill the half toss army because they never split it up, the templar and colossi are very slow and the zealots always move in packs. Before a fight I always suicide my vikings so that the colossi number is already reduced when the acutal fight happens then i can get close to the deathball with the ravens and cast all hsms in a second with the rapid fire ability. In smaller numbers, you can pick out single packs of templar with the ravens. The rapid fire ability is key: you dont want to get feedbacked. In TvZ, its the same story. Although there is no danger of getting feedbacked, you need to micro well: get really close to the zerg army and then fcast all at once when he can not run away any more. you can also use single missles to scare them away or to pick of banelings that are standing around. Ive killed huge muta flocks with this, its pretty funny. Do not try to go mass raven all at once, just produce them one by one out of a single starport and then keep them alive. I think ravens are underused because no pro uses the rapid fire ability.
EPT
