Ravens are just not that great of a unit. Most times lategame zerg or protoss doesn't have much ranged units if you play the standard bio stuff so PDD doesn't actually do anything and autoturrets just suck, hard to place and their damage get's mitigated by armor upgrades too much. Seeker missile however also just sucks against protoss.
Basically their value lies in being a gas dump but good play should just avoid that by not going over 4 gas anytime soon. Besides the ghost is a better (albeit less gas heavy) gas dump in TvP. TvZ there can be some real value in the gas dump and seeker missile isn't as bad but it still kinda sucks given how late it hits, it just overkills way too often or hits your own stuff as much as theirs. If they have broodlords/corruptors then ravens rock because both PDD and seeker missile are great against that but zerg doesn't often go for it. Simply put it's often better to just avoid the gas stockpile in the first place than use ravens to mitigate it. In TvZ if you do happen to have the gas then some ravens are fine even though you probably need an extra starport to make them. They are quite serviceable against infestors, corruptors and broodlords which often show up at that time. It's only a lategame thing though as gas stockpiles shouldn't happen while you're still upgrading and corruptors/broodlords aren't a thing if terran plays properly aggressive.
Ravens synergize much better with mech styles actually as a unit but their cost just doesn't. If you mech you have hardly anything to spend on them. Perhaps when the patch get's released and banshees + mech become a thing we'll see more ravens too.
Ravens could use some slight reworking. Seeker missile would be cooler as a high single target damage with minimal aoe making ravens better in a science vessel way where you can snipe ultra's/broods/colossi/archon with them but it would be really hard to mass them up. Turrets could also use a small buff, for example being able to place them on top of units like forcefield or let their damage increase with bio upgrades. I'd like a small speed buff or range increase as well so they could actually play around HT's, they just force them out of the game as it stands.
Ravens are just not that great of a unit. Most times lategame zerg or protoss doesn't have much ranged units if you play the standard bio stuff so PDD doesn't actually do anything and autoturrets just suck, hard to place and their damage get's mitigated by armor upgrades too much. Seeker missile however also just sucks against protoss.
Basically their value lies in being a gas dump but good play should just avoid that by not going over 4 gas anytime soon. Besides the ghost is a better (albeit less gas heavy) gas dump in TvP. TvZ there can be some real value in the gas dump and seeker missile isn't as bad but it still kinda sucks given how late it hits, it just overkills way too often or hits your own stuff as much as theirs. If they have broodlords/corruptors then ravens rock because both PDD and seeker missile are great against that but zerg doesn't often go for it. Simply put it's often better to just avoid the gas stockpile in the first place than use ravens to mitigate it. In TvZ if you do happen to have the gas then some ravens are fine even though you probably need an extra starport to make them. They are quite serviceable against infestors, corruptors and broodlords which often show up at that time. It's only a lategame thing though as gas stockpiles shouldn't happen while you're still upgrading and corruptors/broodlords aren't a thing if terran plays properly aggressive.
Ravens synergize much better with mech styles actually as a unit but their cost just doesn't. If you mech you have hardly anything to spend on them. Perhaps when the patch get's released and banshees + mech become a thing we'll see more ravens too.
Ravens could use some slight reworking. Seeker missile would be cooler as a high single target damage with minimal aoe making ravens better in a science vessel way where you can snipe ultra's/broods/colossi/archon with them but it would be really hard to mass them up. Turrets could also use a small buff, for example being able to place them on top of units like forcefield or let their damage increase with bio upgrades. I'd like a small speed buff or range increase as well so they could actually play around HT's, they just force them out of the game as it stands.
IMO a big reason that no one talks about is the micro required for ravens. Every unit terran has is so micro intensive already that adding another unit(s) that requires micro is so daunting.
I know I know, for those of us with 300+ apm and mutli tasking and micro of a god, microing units is trivial. But for the rest of the mere mortals, yeah.
On October 16 2013 04:15 avilo wrote: I honestly think it's because either a lot of the Korean players don't know about it, or they are too afraid to start using them in pro games, or they are underestimating how good they are.
You have to remember Korean players for the most part seem to carbon copy each other's builds and strategies until someone comes along and shows them differently or proves something else to be effective that it's worth copying. At least that's how it seems to me, it's always been like that even in brood war. Too many Korean T right now stick purely on bio + mine even into lategame which will almost autolose if Zerg gets to ultras + infestors and starts to tech switch to broodlord/infestor as well.
But for the most part, bio is stronger than mech right now, that's why you do not see ravens as much. Ravens can be really good with bio too, but they are not as necessary if you're constantly pressuring and trading units.
All of what you said was incorrect until broodlord/infestor. In a straight up engagement bio/mine gets crushed by ultra/ling/bane/infestor/broodlord that is correct. Ultra/infestor though does not crush bio/mine unless the terran is nice or messes up and lets his whole army get fungaled. It all goes by how you engage ultra/infestor vs bio/mine.
Furthermore going broodlords is almost never worth it except on specific maps because of how immobile it is. Every time I see a zerg go bl's vs terran if the terrans smart he just goes for a base trade (hint this favors terran a lot, especially versus a broodlord army). Now if the terran is nice and engages the bl/ultra/infestor army then yeah he loses (unless he's got ravens).
On October 16 2013 04:15 avilo wrote: I honestly think it's because either a lot of the Korean players don't know about it, or they are too afraid to start using them in pro games, or they are underestimating how good they are.
You have to remember Korean players for the most part seem to carbon copy each other's builds and strategies until someone comes along and shows them differently or proves something else to be effective that it's worth copying. At least that's how it seems to me, it's always been like that even in brood war. Too many Korean T right now stick purely on bio + mine even into lategame which will almost autolose if Zerg gets to ultras + infestors and starts to tech switch to broodlord/infestor as well.
But for the most part, bio is stronger than mech right now, that's why you do not see ravens as much. Ravens can be really good with bio too, but they are not as necessary if you're constantly pressuring and trading units.
All of what you said was incorrect until broodlord/infestor. In a straight up engagement bio/mine gets crushed by ultra/ling/bane/infestor/broodlord that is correct. Ultra/infestor though does not crush bio/mine unless the terran is nice or messes up and lets his whole army get fungaled. It all goes by how you engage ultra/infestor vs bio/mine.
Furthermore going broodlords is almost never worth it except on specific maps because of how immobile it is. Every time I see a zerg go bl's vs terran if the terrans smart he just goes for a base trade (hint this favors terran a lot, especially versus a broodlord army). Now if the terran is nice and engages the bl/ultra/infestor army then yeah he loses (unless he's got ravens).
"All of what you said is incorrect" should i say that too to what you said -_-? It's a matter of context imo. I think it's pretty accurate to say ultra/bane/infestor demolishes pure bio mine if it gets to that point after ling/bane/muta.
And as for the brood/infestor, i don't mean going brood+infestor off the bat, but more so after you've established lots of ultra/infestor and then you add in broodlords to mess with mines and force some vikings. I'm talking more of an already max vs max game, where Zerg can make like 10-20 spores to free up some extra supply for those broods just to help out mess up Terran's unit composition.
And i think you're underestimating how a lot of Zergs play with static defense. The base trade scenario you're talking about doesn't work so well if Zerg puts spines/spores at every base at that point in the game and then just runs all their ultra/infestor back home.
If they don't put spines/spores at each base and they are just naked hatches...then yeah sure, medivacs will just fly around lol.
actually in tvp you don't lack gas, you're mainly starving for minerals ... buut ravens are really bad lategame since pdd can get fedbacked and the raven itself also can
While it can still be effective vs zerg, that is WoL. In HotS he could have run his speed roaches under the air ball when seekers are casted and take it out with their own seekers. Also why generally seekers on corrupters is a bad idea.
Raven + ghost comps are really powerfull in tvp when playing mech. Hellbat thor + a couple of tanks with ghost and raven support can wreck a toss army. Ravens counter mass void with hsm and tempests with pdd and hellbat thor + ghots for emp destroy toss ground forces and you can add tanks for extra splash and seige range.
On October 17 2013 17:35 Mahanaim wrote: It could have a little speed boost, just saying
agreed it would be awesome if was used lategame in any matchup .. it would look like how arbiters were used during BW in PvT
Or just Science Vessels. Ravens are slugs when compared in speed against Science Vessels.
Speed is definitely one thing that would improve raven usage hugely. That being said, I do feel ravens need more *guaranteed* dmg like the science vessel. Their usage tends to be either way to good or way to bad. Compare it to science vessels which got a lot more guaranteed dmg in(though admittedly scourge made sniping the vessels also a lot easier for Z). Admittedly I think buffing ravens would probably require some nerf to marines lategame, hence I'm not sure buffing is even a realistic option.
On October 17 2013 17:35 Mahanaim wrote: It could have a little speed boost, just saying
agreed it would be awesome if was used lategame in any matchup .. it would look like how arbiters were used during BW in PvT
Or just Science Vessels. Ravens are slugs when compared in speed against Science Vessels.
Speed is definitely one thing that would improve raven usage hugely. That being said, I do feel ravens need more *guaranteed* dmg like the science vessel. Their usage tends to be either way to good or way to bad. Compare it to science vessels which got a lot more guaranteed dmg in(though admittedly scourge made sniping the vessels also a lot easier for Z). Admittedly I think buffing ravens would probably require some nerf to marines lategame, hence I'm not sure buffing is even a realistic option.
why would marines need a nerf ? dont storm and colossus trash them easily .. and marines dont work well with ultras
maybe just maybe because marines, medivacs and mines are just too good. Cheap, effective, can be reactored units.
Or because ravens are too slow and exposed, they die easily compared to what P and Z can dish out. Z maybe but then why would you lift your reactored starports that produce lots of speedivacts and make techlabs for each and make slow ass ravens? need splash? go mines (reactored) need damage marines. also ravens would require another micro intensive unit that when you blink and did not care for disappears in seconds which are also too expansive.
On October 17 2013 21:26 woreyour wrote: maybe just maybe because marines, medivacs and mines are just too good. Cheap, effective, can be reactored units.
Or because ravens are too slow and exposed, they die easily compared to what P and Z can dish out. Z maybe but then why would you lift your reactored starports that produce lots of speedivacts and make techlabs for each and make slow ass ravens? need splash? go mines (reactored) need damage marines. also ravens would require another micro intensive unit that when you blink and did not care for disappears in seconds which are also too expansive.
Oh no, reactored. TWICE the production. Zergs must be all jelly.
On October 17 2013 21:26 woreyour wrote: maybe just maybe because marines, medivacs and mines are just too good. Cheap, effective, can be reactored units.
Or because ravens are too slow and exposed, they die easily compared to what P and Z can dish out. Z maybe but then why would you lift your reactored starports that produce lots of speedivacts and make techlabs for each and make slow ass ravens? need splash? go mines (reactored) need damage marines. also ravens would require another micro intensive unit that when you blink and did not care for disappears in seconds which are also too expansive.
Oh no, reactored. TWICE the production. Zergs must be all jelly.
zerg has 19 max larva, 4 per inject and toss can build X gateways at a time. well i hope its all far :D afterall, all is fair in love and war.
EPT
