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rikter
United States352 Posts
Against P you could also make an early raven to snipe observers, protect from dts, escort dropships...with no tl i would always work in a raven. Ravens are, on paper, the best unit in the game. Its really great in lowunit situations, it has great midgame utility as well, the big issue is that the benefits you get arent enough to offset the stuff you have to sacrifice. But no tl requirement would do a lot towards making them viable. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
I think in TvT Koeans show pretty well they don't value this unit highly and have no idea what to do with it as soon as you see them throwing a double seeker on a tank. Its almost always worth it to add a second starport with a techlab at one point and going raven first on your initial starport. Against Zerg Ravens tend to be a bit useless, because they simply out transfuse your damage and if you don't use the Seeker right most of their units can simply outrun it. I prefer autoturrets against Zerg actually as mobile walls. Against Toss I like the Seeker, but the usage is complicated. I prefer to use it as a ground spell, by either targeting my own units and picking them up, or sniping the Unit I targeted asap. But I do dislike to give your opponent a bomb for 5 seconds heavily, so I am a bit biased. But I think it is unfair to use against Protoss, you stack a few on one of your units and send it in and all those Zealots will charge into their doom. | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2063 Posts
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ETisME
12370 Posts
raven just doesn't seem to have many purposes in a TvP fight. | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
Never used in TvP except in wol for a really old school bio raven allin of one base that Polt invented. Ive been thinking of mixing 1 in all my mu (in tvt I always have a raven) but it could be useful for cleep clearance and observer sniping with a viking. I think the Fxo terrans lile GuMiho experimented with this ang sC before he retired. The vods should be GSTL this season. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On October 16 2013 13:33 GumBa wrote: Im occaisonaly transinitioning into ravens mate game TvZ. With mixed results usually im so far ahead its almost like a gtfo move but it has saved my ass on occasions. Never used in TvP except in wol for a really old school bio raven allin of one base that Polt invented. Ive been thinking of mixing 1 in all my mu (in tvt I always have a raven) but it could be useful for cleep clearance and observer sniping with a viking. I think the Fxo terrans lile GuMiho experimented with this ang sC before he retired. The vods should be GSTL this season. That WoL allin of polts was sweet, it was a really fun build to do. I wish I could do earlier raven vs toss but itd delay the medivacs too much. Against P you could generally get away with a raven and viking escorting a drop, templar arent an issue over dead space and such, its just the starport is so booked makiing medivacs and vikings...the only way to squeeze it in would be if you could reactor it, and go 2x medi 1x medi 1x raven 2x viking with the first three production cycles. Thatd give you escort ability for your first push, some extra raven energy, itd be nice. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
I use them a bit super late-game TvZ against broodlords if it gets to that stage, might be useful earlier on in a game just to clear out creep, but that's a lot of gas that could be in upgrades already and delayed medivac production Theory-crafting wise they make sense in TvP (PDD is sick vs stalkers, HSM vs zealots) but again it seems like you need a lot of them to make it worthwhile | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
On October 16 2013 02:32 goody153 wrote: In TvP In the highest levels. Why don't terrans use it ? you lack gas in that stages of the game ? You never ever lack gas in TvP. I think ravens are not used because of their poor armor(light unit for 200 gas wtf), their really low movement speed and because pros have enough APM to dodge the HSM. In my master ladder matches, the second starport has a techlab and is constantly building ravens. It really helps combating the deathball and you can snipe the templar as good as with ghosts because they are so slow. HSM on colossi is also almost always a guaranteed hit. | ||
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Tsutchie
Australia951 Posts
On October 16 2013 14:36 Whatson wrote: I feel like you need a lot of them to be useful :/ I use them a bit super late-game TvZ against broodlords if it gets to that stage, might be useful earlier on in a game just to clear out creep, but that's a lot of gas that could be in upgrades already and delayed medivac production Theory-crafting wise they make sense in TvP (PDD is sick vs stalkers, HSM vs zealots) but again it seems like you need a lot of them to make it worthwhile this, i feel like you need a lot of them to make a difference. don't want to mention broodwar but i just have to mention it. the first sci vessels, defiler and ht that came out completely changes the pace of the game and the more you got the more powerful your army became. as mentioned above, they might be useful but it takes too much to tech and get 1 out early when you could spend it on other more useful tech. late game you need to make a bunch before they can change the flow of the game. | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
Since I used Mario TvZ mech I have a 100 % winratio vs zerg and i use a lot ravens in the endgame. | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
On October 16 2013 19:17 klup wrote: Ravens are very good if you go mech TvZ it allow you to deal with swarmhost pretty well. If you look at HTOmario style tank/mine he shows how and when going raven. Basically you go raven as soon as you see a swarmhost tech. when you have more than 8 raven its just a nightmare for the Z. Since I used Mario TvZ mech I have a 100 % winratio vs zerg and i use a lot ravens in the endgame. Which league are you in? | ||
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
On October 16 2013 04:15 avilo wrote: I honestly think it's because either a lot of the Korean players don't know about it, or they are too afraid to start using them in pro games, or they are underestimating how good they are. You have to remember Korean players for the most part seem to carbon copy each other's builds and strategies until someone comes along and shows them differently or proves something else to be effective that it's worth copying. At least that's how it seems to me, it's always been like that even in brood war. Too many Korean T right now stick purely on bio + mine even into lategame which will almost autolose if Zerg gets to ultras + infestors and starts to tech switch to broodlord/infestor as well. But for the most part, bio is stronger than mech right now, that's why you do not see ravens as much. Ravens can be really good with bio too, but they are not as necessary if you're constantly pressuring and trading units. Possible but, especialy with the recent KeSPA switch, very unlikely in my opinion. There are so many players in so many Teamhouses that they certainly tried everything and anything, no? | ||
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Metalcore1993
New Zealand92 Posts
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klup
France612 Posts
Which league are you in? Currently climbing diamond ladder, but I struggle a lot atm to make mech style work vs protoss it is much harder than i thought. | ||
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The_best32
14 Posts
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
Vs zerg I feel like raven in a bio force ravens are not very good just because they dont provide anything vs what comp zerg gets vs bio and they'll just be a wasted investment. with mech however, Its a lot more difficult to stop because suddenly the zerg comps changes, and ravens are good vs that composition. Ive seen qute a few times on streams a mech composition demolish a zerg comp because of ravens, most notably SiegeTank Raven Viking with a few support units. One big reason zerg has such difficult stopping this is because they have no counter-mage units (ghost EMP, Hightemplar Feedback) so they cant even deny the PDDs, which are what really make the composition powerful. EDIT: HTOMario uses a Raven transition somewhere in this daily. I only saw the last part, so im not sure if there is mention or use of it in part 1 or 2 In a nutshell, Ravens are great late/end game vs zerg ONLY when you have a solid mech army allready. Theyre great support units. | ||
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TrOn_sc2
Germany91 Posts
. You dont wanna have them against ling bane mass muta because the zerg is going to keep you on low bases and will never let you move out. Also they are not so good against Ultras. I think the only time you shold use them is against broodlords. If you try to fight a moblie army then the zerg is just gonna force the seeker missiles and run away from them. In the current state of TvZ it's a continuesly fight between the muta ling bane vs 4M. There is no need or room ot make a raven transition if the terran keeps fighting with the zerg, who will get ultras and infestors as the final addition to the army. | ||
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Operations
115 Posts
On October 17 2013 01:28 TrOn_sc2 wrote: Ravens are slow, take a long time to build and get enough energy . You dont wanna have them against ling bane mass muta because the zerg is going to keep you on low bases and will never let you move out. Also they are not so good against Ultras. I think the only time you shold use them is against broodlords. If you try to fight a moblie army then the zerg is just gonna force the seeker missiles and run away from them. In the current state of TvZ it's a continuesly fight between the muta ling bane vs 4M. There is no need or room ot make a raven transition if the terran keeps fighting with the zerg, who will get ultras and infestors as the final addition to the army. one important thing to note is that ravens are too slow compared to bio units that's why the synergy is not so good. in BW science vessels were moving at the same speed of unstimmed marines that's one of the reasons why SKTERRAN worked well. | ||
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uh-oh
Hong Kong135 Posts
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On October 17 2013 03:28 uh-oh wrote: Regarding the argument about ravens vs ultras, I think terrans can afford to get 4-6 banshees out and skip a couple of ravens. Banshees' extreme DPS, combined with good wall offs, maybe even auto turrets, should be able to hold off ultras long enough until you have enough banshees/ravens/BCs to be aggressive and force the zerg to transition into something else. Terrans just have to make sure to not get caught off guard by an ultra switch and build banshees in time. Extreme dps versus Ultralisks with chitenous plates while Banshees have 0 weapons upgrades? Not likely. To make 6 banshees as a reaction to an Ultralisk switch would also require more starports. 1 Starport with techlab won't suffice. Adding more starports requires resources that are needed to hold the Zerg at bay. | ||
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